Un autre exemple franc,ais....
Nik Taylor
Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
> I believe that in questions you can: "Have you ever..." would be "avez-vous
> jamais..."
As with English "any" "I saw someone" (not *"I saw anyone"), "I didn't see
anyone", "Did you see anyone?"
M Sheffield
Don scripsi:
>What? But what about the following exchange: "Quand va-t-il =E0
>l'=E9glise?" "Jamais." Or: "Combien de livres a-t-il achet=E9?" "Rien!"
>Can these words actually ever be used in a positive context (anymore)?
They are never used in affirmative sentences, but may be used in questions:
"As-tu jamais vu la Tour Eiffel?" (ever), "Y a-t-il rien d'aussi
embarassant?" (anything).
Note too that they are frequently backed up, in a short answer, by "non",
as in "Non, jamais."
>Surely at the least you consider "pas" to be negative!
Well, "pas" is never used in a short answer as "jamais" can be.
In all these neg expressions (ne ... pas, etc), the "ne" is so weak, and
the other part so strong that the "ne" has become superfluous and can be
and is frequently omitted with no loss off clarity. But, although most
=46rench people are aware of the virtual existence of the "ne", which they
would prnounce in slow careful speech, the language has reached a point
where the "pas, jamais, rien" etc could become the self-sufficient negative
forms, but ofr the normative influence of schools and l'Academie
=46ranc,aise.
Martin,
Grenoble, France.
------------------ http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france
Julian Pardoe
In-Reply-To: <1998011611...@netcom19.netcom.com>
Bruce Gilson wrote:
> Don Blaheta <d...@CS.BROWN.EDU> wrote:
>
> >What? But what about the following exchange: "Quand va-t-il `a
> >l'eglise?" "Jamais." Or: "Combien de livres a-t-il achete?" "Rien!"
> >Can these words actually ever be used in a positive context
> (anymore)?
>
> "avez-vous jamais..."
Exactamundo!!
What's more I'm not that (elliptic) single-word answers are the most
solid grounding for a general argument since they tend to be atypical.
But who cares? I did say "_can_ be disputed on _historical_ grounds"
not "is wrong"!! As so often, I was not really disagreeing with the
original poster, just trying to point out that the matter may not be so
cut-and-dried[*]. (Those of you on Auxlang should perhaps bear this in
mind when reading my postings, cf. my drivel.)
-- jP --
[*] Arguing against your own viewpoint is often much more interesting
(and instructive) that arguing for it. That's partly why I, an
Esperantist, have been defending Interlingua so stoutly!
Cliff Crawford
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Julian Pardoe wrote:
> But who cares? I did say "_can_ be disputed on _historical_ grounds"
> not "is wrong"!! As so often, I was not really disagreeing with the
> original poster, just trying to point out that the matter may not be so
> cut-and-dried[*].
Yes, apparently it isnt from all the examples Ive seen posted to the list.
Summing up, while you can drop 'ne' in speech, and use 'jamais', 'rien',
etc. (but not 'pas') as negative answers to questions, at the same time
you can use them to form *postive* questions ('have you ever', etc.) and
historically theyre derived from Latin words with positive meanings. So,
I guess it just depends on context whether 'jamais', etc. has a negative
or positive meaning...
Hmm, it's too bad Im not a native French speaker. I wonder what it would
be like to think using words which could mean either 'never' or 'ever',
'nothing' or 'anything', etc. Just a thought.....
--Cliff
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/
Raymond A. Brown
At 06:08 16/1/98, Don Blaheta wrote:
>Quoth M Sheffield:
[......]
>> Stricly speaking these words are not negatives, although, as "ne" is
>> disappearing from colloquial speach "je comprends rien" for "je ne
>> comprends rien"), they are increasingly felt to have negative value. All
>
>What? But what about the following exchange: "Quand va-t-il =E0
>l'=E9glise?" "Jamais." Or: "Combien de livres a-t-il achet=E9?" "Rien!"
>Can these words actually ever be used in a positive context (anymore)?
Of course they can't. Don is quite right; they are _negatives_ in modern
=46rench (and have been for quite a time). I can just imagine the re-action
of my French daughter-in-law if I suggested to her that 'jamais', 'rien'
and the others were positive!!
Yes, I am very well aware of the etymology of these words. They were
positives in vulgar Latin and, e.g. 'rien' could still be used as a
feminine noun in medieval French (e.g. por nule rien =3D for nothing); but
=46rench has changed quite a bit over the last couple of thousand years.
Ray.
Raymond A. Brown
At 19:20 16/1/98, M Sheffield wrote:
>Don scripsi:
>
>>What? But what about the following exchange: "Quand va-t-il =E0
>>l'=E9glise?" "Jamais." Or: "Combien de livres a-t-il achet=E9?" "Rien!"
>>Can these words actually ever be used in a positive context (anymore)?
>
>"As-tu jamais vu la Tour Eiffel?" (ever), "Y a-t-il rien d'aussi
>embarassant?" (anything).
Indeed, this is so. But the use of the same words in interrogative as in
negative sentences is not at all unusual in many languages. For example, in
Welsh 'erioed' usually means 'never', but is also used in questions where
we say 'ever', cf.
=46uoch chi erioed yn Aberteifi? Have you ever been to Cardigan.
=46uod hi erioed yno. She had never been there.
I suppose if you're asking a straight yes/no question it is no more logical
to have the positive word than it is to have a negative. Perhaps for such
languages, it might be better to use the terms 'positive' & 'non-positive'.
>Note too that they are frequently backed up, in a short answer, by "non",
>as in "Non, jamais."
Umm - but so is 'non' as in "Non, non, non!" (My young grandson quite often
replies thus :-)
Ray.
Nik Taylor
Raymond A. Brown wrote:
> Indeed, this is so. But the use of the same words in interrogative as in
> negative sentences is not at all unusual in many languages.
In English too! "Anything" can't be used in a positive sentence, *"I saw
anything" doesn't sound right at all, on the other hand *"I didn't see
something" also doesn't sound right, you must say "I didn't see anything", so
arguably "anything" is a negative word which is also an interogative, as in "Did
you see anything" not *"Did you see something?"
M Sheffield
Cliff write:
>
>Hmm, it's too bad Im not a native French speaker. I wonder what it would
>be like to think using words which could mean either 'never' or 'ever',
>'nothing' or 'anything', etc.
It doesn't seem to be problem in French, except when translating into
English. Then they never seem to know hwether to use ever or never.
Mark E. Shoulson
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:09:25 GMT
>From: "Raymond A. Brown" <rayb...@MACLINE.CO.UK>
>
>Indeed, this is so. But the use of the same words in interrogative as in
>Welsh 'erioed' usually means 'never', but is also used in questions where
>we say 'ever', cf.
>
>Fuod hi erioed yno. She had never been there.
That should be "fuodd", right? Or "fu" in literary registers.
There's another negative here too. The soft mutation at the beginning is
the remnant of the other negative, the word "Ni" at the head of the
sentence which projects the mutation, but the word was dropped in most
registers.
There's also "neb" for "nobody", used similarly, and also for "anybody."
And "dim" as a "redundant" negative like French "pas", which also is taking
on the full negative force in many cases. And the "negative" preposition
"mo" in sentences like "Welais i mo Aled"/I didn't see Aled (literally "I
didn't see any of Aled"), from "dim o"/none of. All fertile and fasinating
aspects of this. I should write more of it.
Speaking of which, an idiom I always found interesting was "fawr neb" or
"fawr ddim" (lit. "big nobody" and "big nothing") for "some people" and
"something", respectively. As if when you have a big enough nothing, it
becomes something.
~mark
Mark E. Shoulson
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:08:09 -0500
>From: Nik Taylor <fort...@ufl.edu>
>Organization: University of Florida
>
>Raymond A. Brown wrote:
>
>> Indeed, this is so. But the use of the same words in interrogative as in
>> negative sentences is not at all unusual in many languages.
>
What about "Do anything you like," "Anything you say is fine with me," etc?
~mark
Raymond A. Brown
At 00:03 20/1/98, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
[.....]
>>Fuod hi erioed yno. She had never been there.
>
>That should be "fuodd", right? Or "fu" in literary registers.
Sorry - I make too many typos, as someone recently pointed out. Of course
it's "fuodd".
>There's another negative here too. The soft mutation at the beginning is
>the remnant of the other negative, the word "Ni" at the head of the
>sentence which projects the mutation, but the word was dropped in most
>registers.
That's right. In fact the way negative works in Brittonic langs is very
like French with a little preverbal particle (which, in Welsh, is often
dropped, leaving only the mutation) accompanied by a post-verbal adverb for
'not' ('dim' in Welsh, 'ket' in Breton & 'pas' in French) or by some other
negative adverb, pronoun or adjective.
>
>There's also "neb" for "nobody", used similarly, and also for "anybody."
>And "dim" as a "redundant" negative like French "pas", which also is taking
>on the full negative force in many cases.
In modern Welsh it _has_ taken on this force, just as 'pas' has in French.
In public buildings you are very likely to see DIM YSMYGU (no smoking) and
you'd be unwise to leave your car (automobile) near the sign DIM PARCIO.
>And the "negative" preposition
>"mo" in sentences like "Welais i mo Aled"/I didn't see Aled (literally "I
>didn't see any of Aled"), from "dim o"/none of. All fertile and fasinating
>aspects of this. I should write more of it.
:-)
>Speaking of which, an idiom I always found interesting was "fawr neb" or
>"fawr ddim" (lit. "big nobody" and "big nothing") for "some people" and
>"something", respectively. As if when you have a big enough nothing, it
>becomes something.
And I was often amused by the English phrase "not half" when I was young.
"I don't half like it" = I like it very much.
Ray.
Raymond A. Brown
I did not write: "In English too! "Anything" can't be used in a positive
sentence..."
I wrote the sentences above it: "Indeed, this is so. But the use of the
same words in interrogative as in negative sentences is not at all unusual
in many languages."
I agree with Mark about 'anything'.
Ray.
=======================================================
Written in Net English Humor not marked
No intentional misreprsentation of another's statements
No intentional ad_hominem remarks
Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos (SOLON)
=======================================================
Nik Taylor
Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> What about "Do anything you like," "Anything you say is fine with me," etc?
Oh yeah. I didn't think about that. Oh, well. It still holds that you make
*2* changes to a sentence like "I saw someone" to make it negative.
Mark E. Shoulson
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:03:45 GMT
>
>>There's another negative here too. The soft mutation at the beginning is
>>the remnant of the other negative, the word "Ni" at the head of the
>>sentence which projects the mutation, but the word was dropped in most
>>registers.
>
>That's right. In fact the way negative works in Brittonic langs is very
>like French with a little preverbal particle (which, in Welsh, is often
>dropped, leaving only the mutation) accompanied by a post-verbal adverb for
>'not' ('dim' in Welsh, 'ket' in Breton & 'pas' in French) or by some other
>negative adverb, pronoun or adjective.
>>There's also "neb" for "nobody", used similarly, and also for "anybody."
>>And "dim" as a "redundant" negative like French "pas", which also is taking
>>on the full negative force in many cases.
>
>In modern Welsh it _has_ taken on this force, just as 'pas' has in French.
>In public buildings you are very likely to see DIM YSMYGU (no smoking) and
>you'd be unwise to leave your car (automobile) near the sign DIM PARCIO.
Yes. It's rather similar. Though "Dim" I think is actually negative in
meaning originally (nothing), as opposed to "pas" et al, as has been
mentioned. Or am I wrong about that? Does "dim" ever have a positive
meaning? I think "neb" at least sometimes has (though "anyone" is more
usually rhywun).
>
>>And the "negative" preposition
>>"mo" in sentences like "Welais i mo Aled"/I didn't see Aled (literally "I
>>didn't see any of Aled"), from "dim o"/none of. All fertile and fasinating
>>aspects of this. I should write more of it.
>
>:-)
I was in a hurry, maybe I can write a little more.
The "ni/nid" particle has dropped out in most cases, leaving behind its
mutation and in the case of periphrastic present tense (the usual present)
the "d" remains, making the negative of "Rydw i'n mynd" into "Dydw i ddim
yn mynd." (the "R" of Rydw is also a leftover letter from the *affirmative*
particle: Welsh has them too). "Dim" carries the negation in most cases;
in inflected constructions you use "dim" only when the object if indefinite
(or if there's no object); when there's a definite object you use the
preposition "mo" (from "dim o"/none of...) So...
Gwelodd e gar Welodd e ddim car He saw/didn't see a car
Gwelodd y car Welodd e mo'r car He saw/didn't see the car
Caiff Aled ei weld Chaiff Aled mo'i weld Aled won't get to see him
(lit. Aled won't get any of his seeing)
It's not always so; literary registers and all... I keep hearing the line
from Men of Harlech in my head: Ni chaiff gelyn ladd ac ymlid ([the] enemy
will not be permitted [lit. get] to kill and pursue), no ddim in sight. Of
course, in the above examples I gave positive forms without the affirmative
marker, which is also done.
~mark
Douglas Koller
Raymond A. Brown wrote:
> This is now literary (and poetic). In Old French 'ne' could be used
> without 'pas' or any other particle.
In university, we learned you could get away with this in modern French
with four verbs. The mnemonic is STOP:
S - don't remember. savoir? Native speakers?
T - tromper: si je ne me trompe; if I'm not mistaken
O - oser: il n'oserait; he wouldn't dare
P - pouvoir: je ne peux...; I can't...
Kou