I’ve been kept somewhat aware of the Interlisp-D project through working with Paul McJones to get the source code release permissions from PARC.
We’re currently in the middle of developing the rollout strategy for releasing these sources to the public, though Paul has informed me that he’s made a copy of the Interlisp-D sources available to you for your work.
Yes; the sources Paul gathered were for earlier releases of Interlisp-D; however, there were several years of development at Venue for Medley 1, 2, 3, 3.5, including increasing the address space (and the symbol space), improving common lisp support.
So I think the thrust of our efforts are different:
Paul’s effort has been to gather the original early implementations as a way of recording and documenting the history… while the Interlisp.org project is to have an environment that could continue to be useful and even supported. We’re OK with adaptations to make it convenient to use in a modern system, such as Unicode support
Also, you’ve reached an agreement with John Sybalsky’s stepson to release the Venue Medley source code as open source?
Yes; he’s subscribed to the list.
Will you be using GitHub for this release?
That is currently the plan; https://interlisp.org/#github-repos-license-files
Will that be complementary to CHM’s own release of the PARC-licensed Interlisp-D code?
We left that open, not knowing what your plans were.
“if there is a desire to have sources for older versions, we can add a history directory with versions under that (a fugue, harmony, koto). (There weren’t sub-versions fugue.2 fugue.3) The LICENSE file in history can apply to all the older versions.”
It says “directory” but should be “repository” Interlisp/history.
I’d like to hear more about the Virtual Museum idea. Is it to recreate a running Interlisp-D environment on a modern system, perhaps an in-browser emulation like Dan Ingalls’ Smalltalk Zoo on LivelyWeb?
To get the feeling for what developing code was like, I think you’ll need a longer session; something that can be installed and run for days.
To be honest, all I’ve really done is search for “Virtual Museum” and started reviewing.
If so, how are you envisioning a collaboration with CHM? Do you see CHM hosting such a live environment?
I’m hoping you might advise us, review our plans.
Perhaps we could plan a virtual event like was done for the Alto.
Produce videos recording of demos or explanations?
Tutorials ? What’s involved in curating a software exhibit.
Best,
Hansen
....................................
Hansen Hsu, Ph.D.
Curator, Software History Center
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Just FYI conversation with Hansen Hsu (Computer History Museum manager of Software Collection)
From: Larry Masinter <masi...@gmail.com> On Behalf Of Larry Masinter
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:51 PM
To: 'Hansen Hsu' <hh...@computerhistory.org>
Cc: 'Paul McJones' <pa...@mcjones.org>; 'Austin Henderson' <hend...@rivcons.com>
Subject: RE: Interlisp-D project
You mention video recordings of demos with explanations. We’ve done several of those in the wake of the Alto demo.
Here are three:
Larry Tesler demos Gypsy
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102738551
Dan Ingalls demos Smalltalk
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102738723
Eric Bier demos Cedar
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102781041
Interlisp-D would make the third and would be the natural next demo to do.
The advantage of this would be that since we’ve already done several of these, it wouldn’t be significantly more effort to do another and it fits in with an existing project, so we have no need to involve any higher ups to accomplish this.
Right now, though, we’d have to wait until after COVID to schedule studio time to come in and film this, but otherwise I don’t see any obstacles to this happening.
I think we might get better demos recording a zoom call using screen-sharing.
What we’re missing is some help planning (who demos what why etc) and in post-production (clean up the zoom recording, add an intro, trim outtakes, ums, etc.) .
Maybe doing these as an “event” with remote people able to ask questions?
I imagine a “software history exhibit” that takes some ideas and shows their development over time: “Hypertext”, for example, could show NLS, NoteCards, HyperCard, Early Web; “Scroll bars” could show star, Interlisp, smalltalk, windows, mac. “Line art editing” (Internet Sketch, Illustrator) “IDEs”, “email management”
(Interlisp included its own email manager).
I think that’s what Austin was talking about (right, Austin?)
For the release of Interlisp sources, my thinking has evolved:
We’re currently using source code through Venue, who had a license to distribute the software for Medley consistent with the LICENSE files in our various GitHub repositories.
The CHM collection, which includes lots of things not covered by Envos or Venue agreements, needs to have its own LICENSE file in general, consistent with the terms Xerox released it to you. There will be of course overlaps, but licenses are additive. We don’t need to wait for the CHM release, but it will be important to have it, for establishing context (was this feature there before such and such date?)
If you do a “raw” release of what you have with whatever LICENSE terms you pick, perhaps we can rearrange things to match our release for easier access.
The odd thing about software collections is that they don’t have to be in any particular place.
Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe. I wouldn’t worry about the URLs and hosting.
Maybe we should coordinate with Dan Ingalls.
On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Larry Masinter <L...@acm.org> wrote:
Yes; the sources Paul gathered were for earlier releases of Interlisp-D; however, there were several years of development at Venue for Medley 1, 2, 3, 3.5, including increasing the address space (and the symbol space), improving common lisp support.So I think the thrust of our efforts are different:Paul’s effort has been to gather the original early implementations as a way of recording and documenting the history… while the Interlisp.org project is to have an environment that could continue to be useful and even supported. We’re OK with adaptations to make it convenient to use in a modern system, such as Unicode support
Also, you’ve reached an agreement with John Sybalsky’s stepson to release the Venue Medley source code as open source?Yes; he’s subscribed to the list.
Will you be using GitHub for this release?That is currently the plan; https://interlisp.org/#github-repos-license-filesWill that be complementary to CHM’s own release of the PARC-licensed Interlisp-D code?We left that open, not knowing what your plans were.“if there is a desire to have sources for older versions, we can add a history directory with versions under that (a fugue, harmony, koto). (There weren’t sub-versions fugue.2 fugue.3) The LICENSE file in history can apply to all the older versions.”It says “directory” but should be “repository” Interlisp/history.
I’d like to hear more about the Virtual Museum idea. Is it to recreate a running Interlisp-D environment on a modern system, perhaps an in-browser emulation like Dan Ingalls’ Smalltalk Zoo on LivelyWeb?To get the feeling for what developing code was like, I think you’ll need a longer session; something that can be installed and run for days.To be honest, all I’ve really done is search for “Virtual Museum” and started reviewing.If so, how are you envisioning a collaboration with CHM? Do you see CHM hosting such a live environment?I’m hoping you might advise us, review our plans.Perhaps we could plan a virtual event like was done for the Alto.Produce videos recording of demos or explanations?Tutorials ? What’s involved in curating a software exhibit.
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On Sep 30, 2020, at 12:45 PM, John Cowan <co...@ccil.org> wrote:The idea of Interlisp-in-the-browser is interesting. The obvious way to do it is to compile maiko for Wasm using Emscripten or clang (and a recent browser as well).
Another interesting approach would be to modify maiko to speak HTTP and JavaScript, using the browser window as the Interlisp root window. This would probably be too costly to use for remote execution, but very nice locally: no X server needed. I have no idea if this is practical.
Darn, I thought I might have found a resource! Rewrite the window is fine. There are also games you *must* play -- you have to cooperate with the Javascript event loop because Javascript in the browser is NOT multithreaded -- a program running in the browser's Javascript environment has to yield to the browser in order for the system not to flag the page as hung. This doesn't play well with something like the Interlisp emulator, which just runs (flat out) in an infinite loop.