[gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

Hello,

Does one have the experience for the following:

gentoo vs openSUSE

for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
etc..etc...

Best Regards.

[Andrew Tchernoivanov]

Hi!

I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

About DE:

 I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only little changes with networking). 

Applications:

 I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems. General applications like LibreOffice,

Gimp, browser works fine too. 

The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which loads CPU by 90% while searching 

for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything useful by using this application.

Hope this helps you.

P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.

--
С уважением,
Черноиванов Андрей

[LinuxIsOne]

2011/12/2 Andrew Tchernoivanov:

> Hi!

Hello.

> I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
> x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
> what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

Ok well.

> About DE:
>  I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
> little changes with networking).

> Applications:
>  I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
> General applications like LibreOffice,
> Gimp, browser works fine too.

> The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
> loads CPU by 90% while searching
> for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
> useful by using this application.

Okay.

> Hope this helps you.

Yeah.

> P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.

Not a problem, that is also not a native language for me!

Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

Cheers.

[Mick]

If you want *exactly* what OpenSUSE have included in their distro then
OpenSUSE is for you. Some applications and the whole system will run slower
than Gentoo. Invariably some applications could experience crashes and what
not - any distro would from time to time have such problems and may not be
distro specific anyway, but application specific.

If you want to include additional applications or versions of applications
that OpenSUSE repos do not cater for, then you may run into dependency hell.
At best, some apps will just not install or work as intended. At worst you
could break the underlying distro if you try hard enough and have to
reinstall.

With Gentoo you have higher flexibility on what you install and portage is
definitely thousands times better than YaST, in terms of configurabilty. You
will still get the odd application that is buggy, but as a rule your system
will run lighter and faster because each binary is compiled from source with
the CFALGS and USE flags that you have specified for your system. On the other
hand it will take some time and effort to keep your Gentoo up to date.

Another difference between OpenSUSE and Gentoo is that you will not need to
reinstall Gentoo to get the latest desktop, or init system or what-ever system
wide upgrade is next. With OpenSUSE upgrades imply a reinstallation (unless
YaST got cleverer since the last time I used it). Invariably you will also
never need to reinstall Gentoo to fix any breakages - most problems you may
come across you will learn how to recover from with clever use of portage.

In conclusion:

If you prefer quick installation and easy/quick updates, but with limited
choice on what gets installed and how it is configured, and the OpenSUSE suite
of packages will meet your application needs comprehensively, then OpenSUSE is
a well polished distro that will fit the bill.

If you value higher performance and a much higher degree of configurability,
then Gentoo will be your choice; but that comes at the expense of a
protracted installation process (especially if you have not done this before)
and some admin time on a regular basis to keep your system and applications up
to date.

With Gentoo you will be *forced* to learn a lot to install your system and
keep it running. With OpenSUSE the learning curve will likely be considerably
flatter.

It would be advisable to try them both out in LiveCDs (or even install them in
VMs) to see which you feel more comfortable working with. For a Gentoo based
LiveCD you could try Sabayon: http://www.sabayon.org/ and this may also be
used for a quick (binary) installation of a Gentoo-like system.

HTH.
--
Regards,
Mick

[Dale]

LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.

"Better" depends on what you expect. If you want to learn about Linux,
Gentoo will teach you a lot. Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt. I get the
impression that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is. Gentoo can be
installed by a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park. I
used Mandrake for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to
a point where Gentoo would boot up. It took a while more to get
everything working still. I had to redo my kernel several times.

The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time
in to learn. Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to
compile everything you install. I recently installed Kubuntu for my
Brother. It is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo. Did I
learn anything about Linux, not hardly. I don't think Kubuntu is made
to teach a lot about Linux. It's just made to install easily and
quickly without much fuss.

I do hope you will try Gentoo tho. It is sort of addicting at times. lol

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

[Pandu Poluan]

Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)

But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to speak, but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit "what's going on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes piece of  cake.

The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance, packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* have a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are in env.d and profile.d. And so on.

I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red Hat, CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for its logicality.

Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros allow you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?

Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it myself.

Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency hell. Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro maintainer re: versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a library that's newer than the current 'stable' version, I can just keyword the needed version and compile away.

Rgds,

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdale...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >>
> >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
> novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
> why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
> Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.

A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting, because it
only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look into
your settings to correct it? Thanks.
--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Experience -- specialist term for tried mistakes of older employees.

[Pandu Poluan]

On Dec 3, 2011 8:25 AM, "Frank Steinmetzger" <War...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdale...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
> > novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
> > why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> > don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
> > Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
> A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting, because it
> only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
> following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look into
> your settings to correct it? Thanks.

*sighs*

Blame it on Google...

I'm typing on Android's Gmail client.

Rgds,

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pa...@poluan.info> wrote:
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> myself.

This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

--
:wq

[Pandu Poluan]

Ha, same with me :-)

But in my case, it's esoteric stuffs like: latest iptables, xtables-addons (and its ipset modules), fetchmail, postgreSQL, ... and an initramfs-less system :-)

Rgds,

[Jack Byer]

Michael Mol wrote:

> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>

I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more
user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and
compilation procedures.

[Dale]

This is true but the OP may not really need this type of control. Most
people, newcomers especially, just want something that is easy and sort
of learn a bit and see if Linux is for them. Some people just aren't
wanting to be geeky at all. They want a OS that will take care of
everything for them. In that case, Gentoo is not going to be worth the
effort.

Me, I have a Desktop with no real special needs. I just wanted to be
able to learn about Linux, not have some bunch of junk that I never ever
intend to use installed and be able to update without standing on my
head with my small toe up one nostril trying to jump hoops. Mandrake
had a horrible update process and I got tired of it quick. If you could
insert CD, install and not need to update anything, then you were good
to go. If you install and then need to update something, oooops. Flip
upside down and assume the position.

Gentoo does have a lot of good points, especially for me. It is just
not going to be easy and hand holding at first for a newcomer. The OP
will learn a lot and as I pointed out, it can be addicting. Just turn
off the quiet output setting and see what Linux is really all about. ;-)

[Dale]

That is how I describe Gentoo, Linux from Scratch with a package manager
and other neat tools. I think Gentoo is about as close to that as it
gets. We all know portage is getting really good and full of features
over the past few years. I may not agree with Zac on some recent
default settings but he sure has pushed portage a long long ways
forward. If only Gentoo could wash dishes now. File a feature request
on b.g.o? LOL

[Frank Steinmetzger]

Though Gentoo was my first distro to begin with, the devel stuff in
Debian/Ubuntu is also a big nuisance for me, because you have to “spam” the
equivalent of your world file with numerous dev packages or libs if you want to
install some application from source (like I once tried with Amarok in Debian
Squeeze).
On the other hand one could of course argue that Gentoo is wasting a lot of
space because it is always installing all dev files, like /usr/include,
/lib/**/*.a and stuff. But that’s something else. :)

--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Bosses are like timpani: the more hollow they are, the louder they sound.

[Stroller]

On 2 December 2011, at 17:48, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> ...

> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

IMO you need to try it for yourself. If you have an old PC or a spare hard-drive then it doesn't cost you anything to install a distro and try it for a few days.

IMO the most important thing about a distro is not it's technical pros and cons, but simply how it suits you - how you get along with it.

Having said that, you mention Ubuntu in your comment above. If you haven't used Ubuntu yet, then I suggest it for a few months first. If you have, can you tell us why you're thinking of changing?

Stroller.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

>Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for

>a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from

>Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is

>easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo

>is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

 

since you don't even know what linux is - go opensuse. It is much, much easier to install and setup.

 

Gentoo is only for you if you like tuning, configuring and if you want the system be as close as your personal ideal as possible. Which means:

 

reading and learning a lot

making a lot of mistakes

redoing

be prepared to pull out shell based text tools and fix the mess you created,

 

Go opensuse. it is much more usable for a novice.

 

And to answer your question:

 

no, gentoo is not using the same linux as ubuntu

nor does opensuse.

 

All distributions use some linux version and add their own patches.

 

With the exception of gentoo where you can easily use a completely unpatched linux kernel.

 

--

#163933

[Harry Putnam]

One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
debian that has been around a very long time.

It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
happens again and again at most updates.

No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
into compiling absolutely everything.

A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
again.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:44:32 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote:

> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

The discussions about Gentoo's imminent demise are an annual tradition.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.

If the OP had read so little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned that
much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.

Is the time it takes the computer (not you) to compile updates that much
of an issue. Unless you desperately need some feature only in the new
release, you can carry on using the computer while it compiles the new
versions for you. As for reconfiguring, that has nothing to do with
whether the packages were compiled on your computer or a distro's build
server, but configs rarely change that significantly.


--
Neil Bothwick

Love is grand. Divorce is a few grand more.

[Michael Mol]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Harry Putnam <rea...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
> myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
> for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
> debian that has been around a very long time.
>
> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

From my rudimentary gatherings while reading related blogs and
historical perspectives, there are just two or three people who have
been at the core of Gentoo for a very, very long time. Gentoo has long
been the work of many hands, but these guys have been around the block
a far more times. I don't know how well Gentoo would fare if one or
three of them were to drop off the face of the earth.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.
>
> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

I'd say "bull", but that depends *greatly* on your hardware. When I
talk about Gentoo with my friends, they admit to having tried it, but
then say it took them a long, long time to build a system on their
486. You don't want to run Gentoo compiles on a 486. You probably
ought not to run Gentoo compiles on any x86 processor older than an
Athlon64 or Intel Core chip.

For me, an emerge -e @world takes somewhere between four and ten
hours, depending if it's the eight-core Xeon box or the quad-core
Phenom box. As others noted in the build-speed optimization thread,
it's pretty trivial to tune the system so that it doesn't impact many
(most?) normal user activities, and can go on in the background.
Otherwise, a full system rebuild isn't much more time consuming than
something like a dist-upgrade on Debian or Ubuntu.

There are factors you can tweak to go one way or the other, too. You
might use bindists for chromium, firefox, thunderbird, xulrunner,
libreoffice... That'd probably cut my Phenom system's compile time by
about a quarter. I know installing a full KDE package set would
*increase* build time on my system by about the same.

The vast majority of the time, you're not building a full package set,
but just ten or eleven packages. (if you let things slip a week or
two, like I'm apt to do)

>
> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile.

AFAIK, it can't take longer than an emerge -e @world, which I described above.

> And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.

That seems very unusual, unless by "a bit" you're talking on the order
of six months.


--
:wq

[Dale]

People have been claiming Gentoo is dying for years. I seriously doubt
that is going to happen anytime soon.

I did sort of mention the compile times. Thing is, we don't know what
sort of rig the OP has. If he has a really old rig, that could result
is some long compile times. If it is a recently bought/built rig, then
it may be fast enough to not matter.

It seems no matter how much info a post has, there is always something
missing. :/ I'm just glad I buy my tea loose. I can read the tea
leaves easier. O_O

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:55:28 +0000
Neil Bothwick <ne...@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> > For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> > thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> > happens again and again at most updates.
>
> If the OP had read so little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned
> that much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

I'd go so far as to say that if a user does not already have a
reasonable grasp of how Gentoo works, can't give you a one-paragraph
description of Gentoo that is reasonably accurate, and can't describe
the concepts of how an ebuild would work, then Gentoo is not the
distro for that user.

Gentoo is like fine Italian vehicles - you can get stunning
performance IF you know what you are doing, know what all the bits mean
and are prepared to invest the insane amount of time and effort it
requires (per the rule of diminishing returns). There's always a few
edge cases like James, who simply cannot find any other useful way to
build his embedded images. I suspect James looked at the landscape and
saw two choices: build his own build machinery, or use Gentoo's which
fits most of his needs most of the time.

As soon as someone asks a question like "which is better, OpenSuSE
or Gentoo?" you almost always know the answer cannot possibly be
Gentoo. That user has to play with OpenSuSE for a while to discover for
himself why this is so.

I'm going to get flamed for this, and be accused of being elitist. It
happens every time. And that's OK:

If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.

There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
guy has to become one?

I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
decision.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Dale]

No flames from me. I agree. I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who
has no, or even very little, Linux experience. Looking back, I was one
heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo. It had to be fools luck that I
got it done. Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.
You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

>
> If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
> be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
> freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
> would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
> to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
> LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.
>
> There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
> cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
> guy has to become one?
>
> I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
> first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
> understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
> decision.
>

They can also do the install to a separate drive from within another
distro too. That way they can have the docs, forums and other useful
tools available. I know, I have heard of Knoppix too. Just saying.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

[Alex Schuster]

Dale writes:

> No flames from me. I agree. I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who
> has no, or even very little, Linux experience. Looking back, I was one
> heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo. It had to be fools luck that I
> got it done. Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.
> You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro, where
things are hidden by GUI config tools.

But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

Wonko

[Alan McKinnon]

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:16:19 +0100
Alex Schuster <wo...@wonkology.org> wrote:

> > No flames from me. I agree. I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to
> > someone who has no, or even very little, Linux experience. Looking
> > back, I was one heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo. It had to
> > be fools luck that I got it done. Then again, the docs were, and
> > still are, really good. You can dang near copy and paste the
> > commands.
>
> I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
> succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
> you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

I think we all know at least one person like that. Myself, I've
trained more than just a few (the training salesperson had a knack for
signing up people who had the smarts to cope with Gentoo).

But for every one like that, there are at least 10 more that can't, and
so often in this game I find that others are just not able to spot those
10. And worse, the 10 often give up and go back to Windows.

So the question is not really "can the user do it?", it is rather "how
will *this* person in front of me right now be best served?"

An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The answers to those questions are what should guide you.

> That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
> integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro,
> where things are hidden by GUI config tools.

Precisely, which is why RedHat is great for a Windows sysadmin who
really does want a plug-n-play distro.

Debian is great for people who want to tinker safely - you get the
plug-n-play of a binary distro and you also get build tools that don't
explode in your face every time you try do something that is not
exactly 100% TheTrueRedHatWay.

> But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
> binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
> using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
> add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

Don't forget VirtualBox/VMWare/KVM/Xen and everything else like them :-)



--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo, you
also volunteer to provide support.


--
Neil Bothwick

One of the nice things about standards is that there are so many of them.

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:45:26 +0000
Neil Bothwick <ne...@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> > question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"
>
> The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> you also volunteer to provide support.

I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
with the way I express myself :-)

I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
thread on-topic and relevant...


--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2011 00:11:08 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> > person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> > you also volunteer to provide support.
>
> I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
> get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
> with the way I express myself :-)

No comment :P

> I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
> thread on-topic and relevant...

Well, it is relevant, although it is not specific to Gentoo. It's the
same when you recommend that a Windows using friend tries Linux (any
flavour) - be prepared for plenty of phone calls.


--
Neil Bothwick

What's the greatest world-wide use of cowhide? To hold cows together.

[Indi]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 03:40:01PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Harry Putnam <rea...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> > For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> > thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> > happens again and again at most updates.
> >

> > No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> > into compiling absolutely everything.
>

> I'd say "bull", but that depends *greatly* on your hardware. When I
> talk about Gentoo with my friends, they admit to having tried it, but
> then say it took them a long, long time to build a system on their
> 486. You don't want to run Gentoo compiles on a 486. You probably
> ought not to run Gentoo compiles on any x86 processor older than an
> Athlon64 or Intel Core chip.
>

I have gentoo on a few machines here, including a Pentium-M powered
Thinkpad (single core, 1.7GHz) and a G4 eMac (single core PPC, 1.25GHz).
They handle it just fine, though it does take awhile to update of
course. Never the "two or three days" people love to cry about, but then
I don't use gnome or kde, so maybe it would if I did... As long as I
keep them updated weekly, it rarely takes more than four hours and often
takes as little as 60-90 minutes. I'm using fvwm these days, in case
anyone's curious. Lot of work to set up, but it does everything
extremely well once configured.

The difference in the performance with gentoo on a lower spec machine
does make it pretty worthwhile to suffer the updates, IMO.
In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.

YMMV of course...
:)

--
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[LinuxIsOne]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.

What does low-spec hardware mean?

[Michael Mol]

Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
versions won't)

While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.

--
:wq

[Fernando Freire]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Michael Mol <mik...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

>> What does low-spec hardware mean?
>
> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> versions won't)
>
> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.

<snip>

This sounds about right, I have a Gateway netbook running a 1.6GHz
processor and integrated graphics that runs Gentoo perfectly fine
(XFCE mostly). The same netbook was rather sluggish running Ubuntu,
and even KDE under Gentoo wasn't terribly impressive. With some
reasonable CFLAGS and time to spare you can keep your compile times to
within a few hours.

-FF-

[Alan McKinnon]

Anything that isn't for sale in shops anymore.


--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Indi]

On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linux...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> >
> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
>

> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> versions won't)
>
> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
>

Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.
Peopple pay such a high price to avoid learning anything...

But I was thinking more about anything x86 or ppc and single core,
or stuff like intel atom. Anything ARM. Anything pre core2duo from
intel, for sure, as well as any ppc Mac.

--
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linux...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
>> >
>> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
>>
>> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
>> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
>> versions won't)
>>
>> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
>>
>
> Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.

That's why I gave the description I did. What seems sluggish to you
may not seem sluggish to me. It certainly won't seem sluggish to my
grandmother...

It tunes itself very nicely to the perceptions and needs of the
individual in question.

--
:wq

[Mick]

I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM
even fluxbox was a bit sluggish! Ha!

I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
Pentium 3 Coppermine. KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
That's why I don't run a full KDE ... ;p Only some KDE apps on e17.
--
Regards,
Mick

[LinuxIsOne]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM
> even fluxbox was a bit sluggish!  Ha!

;)-

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

I guess, if Gentoo is required to be learned first and that's why it
is not so popular like Ubuntu and lag far behind than it. When I asked
a stranger do you know about Computers? He says, no but I know what it
is. Then I asked him of Linux, he says, yes I heard of Ubuntu but I
don't know! At least he heard of Ubuntu and Gentoo (when asked about)
he says: Is it a country? /o\

[LinuxIsOne]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
beginners! It is typical then....

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:

> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> beginners!

Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
"power users" distro.


--
Neil Bothwick

A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray
and the blinking red light.

[Philip Webb]

111206 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Then I asked him of ... Gentoo & he says: Is it a country?

No, it's a miniature penguin (smile).

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

[Indi]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:03PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>
> However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
> Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)

> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for

> beginners! It is typical then....

> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for

> beginners! It is typical then....

Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
"user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
It's nice for those who don't want to study to learn how to use their
computer, but it's not going to give the best performance. Security is
also frequently impacted to some degree.
Were it otherwise, there might be fewer "geeky" distros and more "easy"
ones. :)

There's nothig wrong with using Ubuntu though - I tend to recommend
Linux Mint over Ubuntu for eginner or non-technical users.
Opensuse is just a mess everytime I try it (admittedly, more than a year has
passed so maybe it's killer now).

Good luck and enjoy your adventures in OSes. :)

--
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[Indi]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:02PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>
> I guess, if Gentoo is required to be learned first and that's why it
> is not so popular like Ubuntu and lag far behind than it. When I asked
> a stranger do you know about Computers? He says, no but I know what it
> is. Then I asked him of Linux, he says, yes I heard of Ubuntu but I
> don't know! At least he heard of Ubuntu and Gentoo (when asked about)

> he says: Is it a country? /o\

That's ok -- we don't care much about Joe Sixpack's ignorance, and not
every software project is seeking world domination.

--
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[ny6...@gmail.com]

And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
accolades for his efforts.

Terry

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-06, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:03PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>
>> However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
>> Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
>> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> beginners!

Because that's the price of making it good for experienced users. A
lot of people will try to tell you it doesn't have to be that way, but
experience always seems to prove it is that way.

> It is typical then....
>
>> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> beginners! It is typical then....
>
> Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.

And removing choice.

Ubuntu is _great_ if you want to accomplish the same things in the
same ways as the Ubuntu developers intended. If you want to do
anything they didn't think of ahead of time (or if you just want to do
it in a different manner), it's like trying to swim up a cliff.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I'm using my X-RAY
at VISION to obtain a rare
gmail.com glimpse of the INNER
WORKINGS of this POTATO!!

[Joshua Murphy]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:04 PM, <ny6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
> leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
> of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
> accolades for his efforts.
>
> Terry

This doesn't get pointed out enough. I started out on Mandrake myself
and as soon as I ran into a problem, there was such a drastic learning
curve, dealing with RPMs was horrendous at the time, it just wasn't
worth it to me to dig to find what was below the pretty layer when the
pretty layer didn't cut it. Then I used Slackware, which was great for
me, did exactly what I wanted when I asked and absolutely nothing I
didn't ask for... but it wasn't until I jumped into LFS that I really
learned a great deal about *how* Linux actually works. Gentoo is the
only place I've found comparable documentation to LFS, and even when
dealing with other distros I find myself relying on Gentoo and LFS
documentation more *each* than all others combined.

--
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-06, ny6...@gmail.com <ny6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>>
>> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> > beginners!
>>
>> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
>> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
>> "power users" distro.

> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
> Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
> away the best of any distro I have tried.

Definitely.

The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.

> Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
> efforts.

The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Here I am in the
at POSTERIOR OLFACTORY LOBULE
gmail.com but I don't see CARL SAGAN
anywhere!!

[Indi]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:40:01AM +0100, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-06, ny6...@gmail.com <ny6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >>
> >> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> >> > beginners!
> >>
> >> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
> >> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
> >> "power users" distro.
>
> > And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
> > Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
> > away the best of any distro I have tried.
>
> Definitely.
>
> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>
> > Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
> > efforts.
>
> The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.
>

They really are. When you have great documentaion, a shell, and a keyboard
that *is* user-friendly! ;)!

--
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:23:22PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> >> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> >> beginners! It is typical then....
> >
> > Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> > Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> > "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> > things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
>
> And removing choice.
>
> Ubuntu is _great_ if you want to accomplish the same things in the
> same ways as the Ubuntu developers intended. If you want to do
> anything they didn't think of ahead of time (or if you just want to do
> it in a different manner), it's like trying to swim up a cliff.

That’s why you have a different Ubuntu distribution for every single medium and
major desktops. *SCNR*
--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

In order for more and more people having to do even less,
less and less people have to do even more.

[Håkon Alstadheim]

It tells you something that quite often when I google for
"some-problem-description" and debian/ubuntu/suse/windows/whatever,
quite often the only hits to come up are gentoo-related. On debian the
gentoo answer is usually useful, on ubuntu ... well, 'nuff sed.

[Stroller]

On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
> ...

> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.

I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.

I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

Stroller.

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:09:27 +0100
Håkon Alstadheim <ha...@alstadheim.priv.no> wrote:

> > They really are. When you have great documentaion, a shell, and a
> > keyboard that *is* user-friendly! ;)!
> >
>
> It tells you something that quite often when I google for
> "some-problem-description" and debian/ubuntu/suse/windows/whatever,
> quite often the only hits to come up are gentoo-related. On debian
> the gentoo answer is usually useful, on ubuntu ... well, 'nuff sed.

It's not just the Gentoo docs, it's this very list here too.

The fellow who sits two desks away from me reckons he's lost count of
the number of times Google finds the exact answer he's looking for in a
post to gentoo-user :-)

He has many machines, only one of them runs Gentoo. But we still are
the ones who come up with answers.


--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Neil Bothwick]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:32:22 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> The fellow who sits two desks away from me reckons he's lost count of
> the number of times Google finds the exact answer he's looking for in a
> post to gentoo-user :-)

Wouldn't it be quicker to just ask you? ;-)


--
Neil Bothwick

If you consult enough experts, you can confirm any opinion.

[Grant Edwards]

Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
works. As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
of how Linux/Unix works. Asking such a group for technical help is an
express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
things.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! All this time I've
at been VIEWING a RUSSIAN
gmail.com MIDGET SODOMIZE a HOUSECAT!

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stro...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works. As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works. Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back. I asked questions
about it on here.

One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question
about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one. I think about
all the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

[Pandu Poluan]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:02 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stro...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> ...
> >> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> >> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
> >
> > I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
> >
> > I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
> > made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

askubuntu.com (a part of the StackExchange network) is a good place to ask Ubuntu-related questions. Heck, the whole StackExchange sites are wonderful. I myself frequent StackOverflow (where I answer bash questions), ServerFault (mostly answering iptables questions), and SuperUser (where I ask questions). My handle in StackExchange is pepoluan.

Rgds,
 

[Pandu Poluan]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:12 PM, "Dale" <rdale...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stro...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>>
>>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>>
>>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>>
>> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
>> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
>> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
>> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
>> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
>> things.
>>
>
> I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back.  I asked questions about it on here.
>
> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.
>

I think that's because we're technophiles first, Gentooroid second. :-)

Rgds,

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

Yeah, I agree.

Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then unity,
for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie user.
Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's doing, how
he's system works.

[LinuxIsOne]

But at least the user should be know what he is going to do in the
only way possible - CLI!

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Dale <rdale...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question about
> M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all the
> people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

And what response you got when did you ask in Ubuntu lists?

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But we still are the ones who come up with answers.

Nice to know! Cool!

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 AM, Stroller <stro...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.

> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

How do you say like this? Can you give me an example please?

[James Broadhead]

The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(

Really?

[James Broadhead]

On 7 December 2011 15:58, Grant Edwards <grant.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stro...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.

This actually expresses it quite well - because they dropped the
barrier to entry, they end up with a much wider audience, but one
which doesn't obsess over learning how their system operates as much
as other distros.

Additionally, Ubuntu suffers from the devs attempts to include the
newest versions of packages as stable before the majority of distros
think that they are ready[1], while trying to maintain wide 'it just
works' compatibility. They also tend towards over-engineering around
problems in linux / apt, rather than solving the root problem, or
relying on their users to adapt or deal with it themselves.[2]
Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
experience[3].

[1] Pulseaudio, KDE4 (others, I'm sure)
[2] The grub2 config process in Ubuntu is torturous, and includes
editing a file in /etc/defaults of all things.
[3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
default.

[Michael Mol]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
> Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
> experience[3].
>

> [3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
> usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
> installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
> default.

I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, but that really didn't start with them.
*Debian* has it in a far worse way. As an example, say you're in my
position and want Squid running as a website accelerator, and you want
SSL support. Squid can do this. Except the binary packages Debian
builds have SSL disabled because of fears of incompatible licenses
between Squid and OpenSSL.


--
:wq

[Alan McKinnon]

Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.

I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.

Like I said, just go there and have a look for yourself.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Alan McKinnon]

That's not a workable approach in the big wide world out there.

It's simplistic taken to the point of extreme.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[James Broadhead]

"Especially in the past" _means_ 'back when they were closer to being
Debian'. Things have improved over the years, but it's still difficult
to get a codec-heavy mplayer in Ubuntu without building it manually
for example.

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.

> I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
> links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
> what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.

Okay but at least Ubuntu is good for new users and Windows convert and
for those doesn't it give a learning curve in Linux?

[James Broadhead]

That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
such a benefit then.

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:18 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
> passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
> definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
> doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
> sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
> from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
> such a benefit then.

Ok, I agree with you but I have just installed since I had to Linux
experience but everything is working like a charm. I don't know if any
problem would come.

[Michael Mol]

I got started with Linux via Red Hat 5.2. (Pre-Fedora, pre-RHEL days).
I used it for only a few days before switching to Debian. If I hadn't
seen Red Hat's relatively automagic setup of X, and the availability
of all the tools to do things I wanted using a GUI interface, I
probably would have hopped back to Windows 95.

As it was, seeing that GUI and knowing that a familiar interface was
what left me willing to deal with the couple weeks it took me to learn
how to set up XFree86 3.3.6 on Debian.[1] Fortunately, just about
every Linux distro, including Gentoo, has much better resource for
getting a GUI up and running, so a modern newbie experience shouldn't
be nearly so taxing on initial patience.

Sure, being able to learn a system inside and out is a good thing, but
you need to get past that initial hurdle before you're ready to tackle
it, and Ubuntu handles that initial hurdle quite well. Give a user six
months to a year, and they'll grow tired of Ubuntu constantly breaking
their customizations, and they'll probably switch to Debian or Linux
Mint. I've watched that leap several times now. A few of them
eventually leave Debian or Mint for Gentoo. Some land on Fedora or
OpenSuSE, but they're usually heavily working with RHEL or CentOS in
other contexts.

[1] Luckily, I wasn't even an adolescent yet; I don't think I'd have
had the time or patience for that as an adult.

--
:wq

[LinuxIsOne]

I mean i have no Linux experience and everything is working like a
charm in Ubuntu and yes you are correct to say that command line is
hidden which is the real gem in linux. I agree with you in this
regard. But I guess (not sure) if Ubuntu would give me the Linux
learning environment?

[Michael Mol]

As long as we're talking about *you*, and not about someone you're
setting things up for, here's what I'd suggest:

1) Keep your existing Ubuntu setup operational, at least for a while.
Gentoo isn't something you should dive into unless you have a
fallback, at least until you learn enough to be able to fix the things
you'll encounter.
2) Set up Gentoo as a second machine; it really is a great way to
learn how a lot of the moving parts in Linux work.

Once you've got Gentoo doing everything you want it to do, and you've
burned yourself a couple times, you'll be in a good position to make a
decision for yourself. I've actually bounced back and forth between
Ubuntu and Gentoo twice in the last three or four years, but I think
I'm finally ready to go steady with Gentoo. :)

Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.


--
:wq

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Michael Mol <mik...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As long as we're talking about *you*, and not about someone you're
> setting things up for, here's what I'd suggest:

> 1) Keep your existing Ubuntu setup operational, at least for a while.
> Gentoo isn't something you should dive into unless you have a
> fallback, at least until you learn enough to be able to fix the things
> you'll encounter.
> 2) Set up Gentoo as a second machine; it really is a great way to
> learn how a lot of the moving parts in Linux work.

> Once you've got Gentoo doing everything you want it to do, and you've
> burned yourself a couple times, you'll be in a good position to make a
> decision for yourself. I've actually bounced back and forth between
> Ubuntu and Gentoo twice in the last three or four years, but I think
> I'm finally ready to go steady with Gentoo. :)

> Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
> just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
> with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.

Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
would install in one old machine, I mean I would try to install Gentoo
after going through the docs..(of course, required in Gentoo). But one
more request can you also suggest about openSUSE? Is openSUSE lies in
the middle between Ubuntu and Gentoo?

[Lorenzo Bandieri]

2011/12/8 LinuxIsOne <linux...@gmail.com>:

Well, maybe my experience will be useful to you. Ubuntu was my
introduction to linux. First, I'll start by saying that before linux I
didn't know absolutely nothing about computers and the like. I had my
first desktop pc at home (windows xp) when I was 15 or 16 years old.
Before that, only my father owned a pc, for his work, and I was not
allowed to use it. My high school was centered around
humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after
high school, I managed to get into med school. So, no computer
science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about
computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :)
At 19, I was given a laptop, only for me (windows vista, if I remember
correctly). I decided to install linux on it, and I chose Ubuntu
because it was the distro of wich I heard about the most. After some
months, I decided to move away from ubuntu because I felt it was too
limited - I wanted to learn. In the following two years I tried other
distros, but at last I felt that only two were apt to me: Gentoo and
Arch Linux. Of these two, I tend to prefer Gentoo.

What's the point in this story: I started as a computer illiterate. I
think that, had I chosen Gentoo (or Arch, or Slackware) as my first
distro, probably I would have given up with linux. I could never get
started so abruptly with the terminal, CLI etc. I needed a gradual
introduction, to get familiar with filesystems, directory hierarchy,
basilar command line usage etc. Ubuntu, at the time, provided this.
Just remember that *probably* you won't learn much by using Ubuntu. If
you want to learn, when you're ready, you will have to move on. You
learn more after an attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of
plain Ubuntu usage :)

At least, that is my real life experience and my opinion. I'm just one
user; on this ML there are really knowledgeable users, so you should
listen to them[1].

[1] BTW, I just want to say that I really love this ML. Thanks guys.

Hope this helps,

Lorenzo

--
Nothing is interesting if you're not interested.

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Lorenzo Bandieri
<lorenzo....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, maybe my experience will be useful to you. Ubuntu was my
> introduction to linux. First, I'll start by saying that before linux I
> didn't know absolutely nothing about computers and the like. I had my
> first desktop pc at home (windows xp) when I was 15 or 16 years old.
> Before that, only my father owned a pc, for his work, and I was not
> allowed to use it. My high school was centered around
> humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after
> high school, I managed to get into med school. So, no computer
> science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about
> computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :)
> At 19, I was given a laptop, only for me (windows vista, if I remember
> correctly). I decided to install linux on it, and I chose Ubuntu
> because it was the distro of wich I heard about the most. After some
> months, I decided to move away from ubuntu because I felt it was too
> limited - I wanted to learn. In the following two years I tried other
> distros, but at last I felt that only two were apt to me: Gentoo and
> Arch Linux. Of these two, I tend to prefer Gentoo.

That's really nice to know.

> What's the point in this story: I started as a computer illiterate. I
> think that, had I chosen Gentoo (or Arch, or Slackware) as my first
> distro, probably I would have given up with linux. I could never get
> started so abruptly with the terminal, CLI etc. I needed a gradual
> introduction, to get familiar with filesystems, directory hierarchy,
> basilar command line usage etc. Ubuntu, at the time, provided this.
> Just remember that *probably* you won't learn much by using Ubuntu. If
> you want to learn, when you're ready, you will have to move on. You
> learn more after an attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of
> plain Ubuntu usage :)

> At least, that is my real life experience and my opinion. I'm just one
> user; on this ML there are really knowledgeable users, so you should
> listen to them[1].

> [1] BTW, I just want to say that I really love this ML. Thanks guys.

Yeahs thanks and your story really gives nice things to remember. I
would definitely try now Gentoo and since it is an advanced version of
Linux usage, so people here are, of course, having more knowledge and
more mature, including you. When you say 'You learn more after an
attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of plain Ubuntu usage :)',
this line is really good to know. If this is true, I guess after some
initial learning I would step towards Gentoo, I bet. But since Gentoo
was not in top 5 at distrowatch.org so that also (earlier) made me
thought that Ubuntu or openSUSE are more matured Linux distributions
but I forgot that the rating I saw was of popularity and not of more
advanced or the one giving more learning curvature.

Thanks.

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Indi <thebeelze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
> It's nice for those who don't want to study to learn how to use their
> computer, but it's not going to give the best performance. Security is
> also frequently impacted to some degree.

I just want to say that I love Gentoo Linux, have used it as my
primary OS for years on multiple computers and can't stand to use
anything else. I like having total control over everything. I truly
enjoy it, the Gentoo Way just feels like "the right way" in general to
me. That is my subjective opinion.

But I also want to say that just because you're forced to do things
yourself doesn't mean that makes them inherently better-performing or
secure. :) One can just as easily screw up their CFLAGS and a have
terrible security setup, especially a beginner. This list's archives
are full of such stories...

I say install a binary distro to get your feet wet with Linux.
Understand the basic concepts of how the system works, using a shell,
editing config files, etc. Once that's not a 100% foreign experience
to you, then go and install Gentoo using the great docs, wikis,
forums, mailing lists and IRC as your guide, and we can be your
hand-holding friends along the way.

I would also suggest using a virtual machine for your first
installations. It will make it a lot less scary. You messed up
partitioning? No problem, you didn't just destroy your Windows
installation or your life-long collection of digital photos (that you
probably never got around to making a backup of).

As a newbie to Linux, comparing distros is usually equivalent to
comparing the default desktop environment, wallpaper and color scheme.
They don't know enough to care about bootloader, filesystem layout,
LVM, package manager, or whatever holy wars linux distros are having
these days. :)

A beginner can certainly follow along the Gentoo install docs, but I
think it takes a certain kind of person to tolerate it... Blindly
copy-pasting commands that they don't understand isn't necessarily
going to teach them anything. Not any more than blindly copy-pasting
example code from a programming textbook makes you a programmer...
Having at least some basic understand of the commands you're typing in
will greatly enhance the experience, in my opinion.

Good luck to the OP, whatever he chooses. Welcome to the dark side. :)

[Grant Edwards]

Yes, really. When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
learned to ignore the user forum.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I own seven-eighths of
at all the artists in downtown
gmail.com Burbank!

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-08, LinuxIsOne<linux...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
>> <jamesbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
>>> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
>>> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
>> Really?
> Yes, really. When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
> learned to ignore the user forum.
>

I learned to ask here. lol

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

[Mick]

OpenSUSE is not that different from Ubuntu, but is a long way from Gentoo.

There is no way to meaningfully compare *Ubuntu and OpenSUSE, because it
depends what suits your taste and preferences. You can install both, run them
for a few weeks and see which you feel more comfortable with.

Last time I installed OpenSUSE (some years ago) I had to reinstall it when
time came to upgrade to the latest version. With Ubuntu the upgrade path was
pretty seamless. The Ubuntu devs had it all scripted out via the update
manager. So, Ubuntu is I think easier to look after and keep upgrading than
OpenSUSE was back then. Not sure how things have evolved since then in the
OpenSUSE world. CentOS was no better than OpenSUSE in this regard.

So, for a newcomer to Linux I would recommend *Ubuntu.
--
Regards,
Mick

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 08:09:34PM +0000, Mick wrote:

> > > Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
> > > just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
> > > with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.
> >
> > Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
> > would install in one old machine, I mean I would try to install Gentoo
> > after going through the docs..(of course, required in Gentoo). But one
> > more request can you also suggest about openSUSE? Is openSUSE lies in
> > the middle between Ubuntu and Gentoo?
>
> OpenSUSE is not that different from Ubuntu, but is a long way from Gentoo.
>
> There is no way to meaningfully compare *Ubuntu and OpenSUSE, because it
> depends what suits your taste and preferences. You can install both, run them
> for a few weeks and see which you feel more comfortable with.
>
> Last time I installed OpenSUSE (some years ago) I had to reinstall it when
> time came to upgrade to the latest version. With Ubuntu the upgrade path was
> pretty seamless. The Ubuntu devs had it all scripted out via the update
> manager. So, Ubuntu is I think easier to look after and keep upgrading than
> OpenSUSE was back then. Not sure how things have evolved since then in the
> OpenSUSE world. CentOS was no better than OpenSUSE in this regard.
>
> So, for a newcomer to Linux I would recommend *Ubuntu.

I did this in the past. But recently I’m reassessing this, with Ubuntu changing
the default look and the way it works with every other release (remember the
hassle about window buttons to the left by default?). I can’t really explain
-- let alone justify -- to a newbie, who had to adapt from Win to Ubuntu that
he has to do so again, whether he wants to or not. Plus it seems to me they
are trying to become Apple in the Linux world, with own services (and design).
I am totally at a loss with entry-level distros right now.

I tried Mint, also the new one with Gnome 3. The praised Mint menu seems
overloaded to me (it shows too much at once IMHO). I somehow dislike custom
layers over a standard interface, much like, if I bought an HTC Android, I
would reflash it without Sense UI, but I’m digressing.

OpenSuse seems even more overloaded. Albeit it provides a whole environment,
Yast was full of stuff a simple user will never need. It also caused a very
long and voluminous installation process.
I must add though that I peeked into both Mint and Suse only for a day or so,
without ever using it myself, so I don’t know jack about update procedures.

A friend of mine wanted Linux, so I installed Debian stable for her with KDE
4.4. It’s not bleeding edge, but it works because it doesn’t change much (hence
keeps working) and because she doesn’t do a lot of fancy stuff. (And also
because I used Debian testing for a while, so I know a bit about how to do some
helpdesking).
--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Everything is poisonous -- it just comes down to the dosage.

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

Wait a minute, an actual doctor installed and maintain Gentoo boxes?

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 01:02:14AM -0200, Claudio Roberto França Pereira wrote:
> Wait a minute, an actual doctor installed and maintain Gentoo boxes?

??

--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

A hammer is a wonderful tool,
but it is plain unsuitable for cleaning windows. (SelfHTML forum)

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

>By Lorenzo Badieri:
>[...] My high school was centered around

>humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after

>high school, I managed to get into MED SCHOOL. So, no computer

>science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about

>computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :) [...]

[Sebastian Beßler]

On 08.12.2011 17:11, LinuxIsOne wrote:

> Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
> would install in one old machine,

You could use virtualbox to create a virtual PC and install Gentoo
there. That would eliminate the required space for a second monitor,
keyboard and mouse.

Virtualbox is mostly self-explaining so that should not be so much of a
problem.

Greetings

Sebastian Beßler

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <War...@gmx.de> wrote:

 

I did this in the past. But recently I’m reassessing this, with Ubuntu changing
the default look and the way it works with every other release (remember the
hassle about window buttons to the left by default?). I can’t really explain
-- let alone justify -- to a newbie, who had to adapt from Win to Ubuntu that
he has to do so again, whether he wants to or not. Plus it seems to me they
are trying to become Apple in the Linux world, with own services (and design).
I am totally at a loss with entry-level distros right now.

I tried Mint, also the new one with Gnome 3. The praised Mint menu seems
overloaded to me (it shows too much at once IMHO). I somehow dislike custom
layers over a standard interface, much like, if I bought an HTC Android, I
would reflash it without Sense UI, but I’m digressing.

OpenSuse seems even more overloaded. Albeit it provides a whole environment,
Yast was full of stuff a simple user will never need. It also caused a very
long and voluminous installation process.
I must add though that I peeked into both Mint and Suse only for a day or so,
without ever using it myself, so I don’t know jack about update procedures.

A friend of mine wanted Linux, so I installed Debian stable for her with KDE
4.4. It’s not bleeding edge, but it works because it doesn’t change much (hence
keeps working) and because she doesn’t do a lot of fancy stuff. (And also
because I used Debian testing for a while, so I know a bit about how to do some
helpdesking).

I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the same way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I think.

[LinuxIsOne]

Nice suggestions.

> Good luck to the OP, whatever he chooses. Welcome to the dark side. :)

Thanks.

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:31 AM, Sebastian Beßler
<seba...@darkmetatron.de> wrote:

> Virtualbox is mostly self-explaining so that should not be so much of a
> problem.

VB works from within another OS or needs memory of HDD?

[Pandu Poluan]

On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <linux...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

----- >8 snip

>
> I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the same way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I think.

I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.

First, there might be differences in how they install a package. There's RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.

Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users OpenRC, Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so on.

And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel. With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.

(The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure: attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at the right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches like GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))

Rgds,

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Pandu Poluan <pa...@poluan.info> wrote:

> I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.

> First, there might be differences in how they install a package. There's
> RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.

> Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users OpenRC,
> Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so on.

"init" system? I am first time hearing this, may be, I would read it
later or sometimes about what is it....

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel. With
> Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced Gentooroids will
> configure and compile their own kernels.

> (The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure:
> attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at the
> right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches like
> GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

Oh I see. Thanks for clarification Pandu.

> ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))

Great to hear.

[Alan McKinnon]

Not quite.

A very small selection of all possible Unixes work the same.
Ubuntu and Debian are quite similar as they have common roots.
RedHat works rather like an old Fedora (and to some degree that's almost
exactly what it is).
Gentoo looks and feels like whatever you decide to make it to be
(because it is so highly configurable and adaptable)

The fact is that the kernel make very little difference to how the
overall system works. YOU do not interact with the kernel, YOU interact
with a collection of programs called "userland", and these things can
all be very different. For example, I'm looking at three computers
right now that all run Linux, and they are all very very different:

- this laptop, which is set up as a traditional Unix with X,
- my phone running Android
- my wireless router/modem which runs busybox

Be careful of making rash conclusions about Linux. A Linux system is not
"like" anything particularly, it is whatever the person who built it
decided it should be.

What you will find is that desktop Linuxes share many common elements.
This is not surprising - all versions of Windows share many common
elements too.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Alan McKinnon]

VirtualBox is a program that runs on a working system with a
functioning OS. Like all programs it needs resources like memory and
hard disk space. Unlike most programs it usually uses a LOT of memory
and hard disk space to be useful.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.m...@gmail.com

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pa...@poluan.info> wrote:

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.

RedHat is particularly bad about this. I maintain a couple Linux
drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions. There
are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.

> With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
> Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.

I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
version of a kernel.

--
Grant

[Pandu Poluan]

Ah, I see that I might have misconstrued myself. My bad.

Regarding drivers: usually they're no big deal, since the 'infrastructure' portions of the kernel (e.g., SCSI disk support) are most likely have been enabled.

For most applications, usually they don't really care what's in the kernel since they operate at a quite high-level.

Problems might arise though if you're doing exotic things. For example: If I built the IPset portion as 'built-in' into the kernel, I won't be able to install xtables-addons. This is due to the package wanting to install its own set of IPset modules.

Fortunately, such cases are few and far between in the Gentooverse. People doing exotic things are naturally expected to Know What They Are Doing™ :-)

Rgds,

[Michael Mol]

Speaking from experience, the real difficulty is knowing that you're
doing something exotic. Once you find out, you generally have two
options: Follow the route most people go (such as is happening with
udev), or help fix the system so that your desired approach still
works (such as the fellow who's been working with mdev).

If you're constantly exploring, you'll very likely hit the exotic edge
cases, but then that's going to be part of learning the thing you're
exploring. Gentoo can be really great for that. Even better, in that
it's often not that hard (after a while) to help smooth those edges,
making it easier to go on exploring.
--
:wq

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> VirtualBox is a program that runs on a working system with a
> functioning OS. Like all programs it needs resources like memory and
> hard disk space. Unlike most programs it usually uses a LOT of memory
> and hard disk space to be useful.

Oh I see. I see VB in Ubuntu...(how to) since right now I have Ubuntu.....

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A very small selection of all possible Unixes work the same.
> Ubuntu and Debian are quite similar as they have common roots.
> RedHat works rather like an old Fedora (and to some degree that's almost
> exactly what it is).
> Gentoo looks and feels like whatever you decide to make it to be
> (because it is so highly configurable and adaptable)

> The fact is that the kernel make very little difference to how the
> overall system works. YOU do not interact with the kernel, YOU interact
> with a collection of programs called "userland", and these things can
> all be very different. For example, I'm looking at three computers
> right now that all run Linux, and they are all very very different:

> - this laptop, which is set up as a traditional Unix with X,
> - my phone running Android
> - my wireless router/modem which runs busybox

> Be careful of making rash conclusions about Linux. A Linux system is not
> "like" anything particularly, it is whatever the person who built it
> decided it should be.

> What you will find is that desktop Linuxes share many common elements.
> This is not surprising - all versions of Windows share many common
> elements too.

Thanks for this explanation. I earlier (before this post) used to
think that it is the kernel which is a deciding factor..., but yes it
is correct to say NO for this. Linux is really highly configurable at
least for this reason is a better choice and especially Gentoo - which
could be made to work like anything we wish (as you say) --- really
great to know. ON one of the machine and in the time to come, I wold
first read how to install Gentoo and then would definitely (100%) try
to install Gentooo ---- at least a successful installation would make
me know many things as far as Gentoo is considered.. Eventually I
would come to these great mailing lists for the help, but since I am
in another job, so it would take much time, but I would try....

Thanks.

[Indi]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 03:40:02PM +0100, Pandu Poluan wrote:

> On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <[1]linux...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> ----- >8 snip
>
> >

> > I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the
> > same way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I
> > think.
>

> I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.
>
> First, there might be differences in how they install a package.
> There's RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.
>
> Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users
> OpenRC, Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so
> on.
>

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many
> distros introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla

> kernel. With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced

> Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
>

> (The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure:
> attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at
> the right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches
> like GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

Probably he doesn't; one has to learn a bit before any of this will
make sense to them. Imagine having this converstaion with your
great-aunt Agnes... ;)

>
> ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))
>

Indeed.

--
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤

[James Broadhead]

What a bunch of ricers :P