Not a bible thumper. . .

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root

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Jul 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/16/96
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On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 in message <1996071522...@lucretia.msu.edu>
Aaron Tiensivu said:
> I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
> change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user i s the UFS driver.
[expletives deleted]

Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such language
is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!

Bob Taylor


Jared Mauch

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Jul 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/16/96
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Comments are ok, I use words such as this all the time, actually
one of my best written programs that many people ask for copies of
(networking monitoring tool that understands network topology) was
built in a directory with one of those names/sysmon-0.74beta1 when I
started to do some major rewrites of its code and was getting pissed
at the author who wrote nasty code (oops, that was me).

Lets cange the ufs one, but other than that, the others are
for developers, and I for one am not offended by those comments, because
I can relate to them. (I wanna see you create raw icmp packets and make your
code port to hpux, solaris, sco, etc. ;-)

- jared



Aaron Tiensivu graced my mailbox with this long sought knowledge:


>
> I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
> change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user is
> the UFS driver.
>

> ./fs/isofs/inode.c:/* Some dipshit decided to store some other bit of informatio
> n in the high
> ./drivers/cdrom/mcd.c: that are supposedly "OUT OF TOLERANCE" (but are really sh
> itty presses!)
> ./arch/sparc/mm/srmmu.c: * else we eat shit later big time.
> ./arch/sparc/mm/srmmu.c: * this shit off... nice job Fujitsu.
> ./fs/ufs/ufs_super.c: printk("ufs_read_super: fucking Sun blows me\n");
> ./lib/vsprintf.c: * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)
> ./drivers/cdrom/sbpcd.c: CURRENT=req->next; /* task can fuck it up GTL
> */
> ./arch/sparc/kernel/process.c: /* fuck me plenty */
> ./arch/sparc/kernel/sunos_ioctl.c: /* Binary compatibility is good American know
> how fuckin' up. */
>
>
>
>
>

Arthur D. Jerijian

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Jul 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/17/96
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This is too hilarious. I say we LEAVE them in the kernel. After all,
Linux is supposed to be fun, remember?

--Arthur

Systemkennung Linux

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Jul 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/17/96
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Hi,

> I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
> change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user is
> the UFS driver.

["fuck"-ing sources deleted]

I you have ever spent some night tracking bugs you'd know that the skill
that all programmers share is swearing. These sources are just like live
and I don't intend to waste a second just to make 'em political correct.

Ralf (Whose best comments luckily never got published ...)


David L. Dight

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Jul 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/17/96
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At 18:39 15/07/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
>change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user is
>the UFS driver.
>
>./fs/isofs/inode.c:/* Some dipshit decided to store some other bit of
informatio
>n in the high
>./drivers/cdrom/mcd.c: that are supposedly "OUT OF TOLERANCE" (but are
really sh
>itty presses!)
>./arch/sparc/mm/srmmu.c: * else we eat shit later big time.
>./arch/sparc/mm/srmmu.c: * this shit off... nice job Fujitsu.
>./fs/ufs/ufs_super.c: printk("ufs_read_super: fucking Sun blows me\n");
>./lib/vsprintf.c: * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)
>./drivers/cdrom/sbpcd.c: CURRENT=req->next; /* task can fuck it up GTL
>*/
>./arch/sparc/kernel/process.c: /* fuck me plenty */
>./arch/sparc/kernel/sunos_ioctl.c: /* Binary compatibility is good American
know
>how fuckin' up. */
>

OK. So what? Tell us what we're meant to chew. So you've learnt to use find
have you?
---
tech...@researchtech.com.au

"The difference between experts and professionals is that the former rarely
get paid, never make any mistakes they'll admit to, and constantly rate
themselves as professionals; whilst the latter always get paid, often make
mistakes they're forced to admit to and are constantly confused with experts."

David S. Miller

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Jul 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/17/96
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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:25:41 -0700
From: root <ro...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>

Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such
language is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!

Deleting a vulger message which does reach the user should be removed,
yes the UFS message should be removed asap.

But as far as developer venting withing a kernel source comment,
removing that is ludicrious.

----------------------------------------------////
Yow! 233 microsecond remote host TCP latency ---- beat that
--------------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, d...@engr.sgi.com /_____________/ / // /_/ ><


Louis J. LaBash Jr.

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Jul 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/17/96
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Aaron,

|I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting
|that we change these, just something to chew on. The only one that
|reaches the user is the UFS driver.

You're correct in pointing this out, there's really no need of any
of it.

Regards.
--
Louis-ljl-{LLa...@siue.edu | l...@minuet.siue.edu}


Andrew Walker

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Jul 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/18/96
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David S. Miller wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:25:41 -0700
> From: root <ro...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>
>
> Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such
> language is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!
>
> Deleting a vulger message which does reach the user should be removed,
> yes the UFS message should be removed asap.
>
> But as far as developer venting withing a kernel source comment,
> removing that is ludicrious.

Especially when developers have to struggle with the abominations
Sun tend to throw at them ;-) Its only natural...

-Andy

--
Andy Walker Kvaerner Engineering a.s.
Andrew...@lysaker.kvaerner.no P.O. Box 222, N-1324 Lysaker, Norway

......if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence......

msm...@quix.robins.af.mil

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Jul 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/18/96
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> This is too hilarious. I say we LEAVE them in the kernel. After all,
> Linux is supposed to be fun, remember?

Well comments I can understand, but not printks.



>./fs/ufs/ufs_super.c: printk("ufs_read_super: fucking Sun blows me\n");

This is not the way to promote Linux to the masses.
Besides, I can't figure out whether the first word is a
verb or an adjective.

I have an 8 year old cousin that likes to visit me and play Doom
on my Linux box. He can boot it and login himself, however I'm
sure his dad would be thrilled to find out that he learned
the above phrase from my Operating System.

Scrap it.

Melvin S.


Christopher Hassell

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Jul 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/18/96
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Lo and indeed Systemkennung Linux sayeth in the text...

[those who are parod-ically impaired must realize this above is known as a joke]

# Hi,

#>I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
#>change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user is
#>the UFS driver.

# ["fuck"-ing sources deleted]

# I you have ever spent some night tracking bugs you'd know that the skill
# that all programmers share is swearing. These sources are just like live
# and I don't intend to waste a second just to make 'em political correct.

It sounds to me like you a spent very late night writing this.

I refuse to believe that the one skill I share with all my compatriots in
cryptitudinous constellationizing (**) is that they can use four heavily
meaningless and overused words in something someone just called a "skillful"
manner. I know of no such "skill" there that my friends desire to envy either.

I say lots of interesting long and creative curses, epithets and even a
few of the four words at my CRT when debugging late into the night. I
don't consider them to be my best or even a typical snippet of my
speech, as emotional as they definately are.

# Ralf (Whose best comments luckily never got published ...)

What makes the use of "fuck" "shit" "asshole" etc... skillful, anyway?
Go ride the 15 bus on a saturday night and you'll hear lots of "skill" I
suppose.

(More creative uses of these four words form your "Best" comments?)

I don't know about you, but being able to shock the very SMALL (i.e. not big)
number of people who are completely shocked by the four Great Words is not a
skill at all... but the random semblance of it. Any desire to shock and
shock and shock instead of say something is not politically correct, but is
a plethora of oversupplied un-creativity.

Push the envelope. Use a wider realm of ideas and tastes. More folks will
listen to us than the folks who love those four words. (Most don't type.)

[** "Code arranging." I make no claims to be using actual English(tm) words or
phrases, but I attempt to use them on the TV. The case has scuff marks now.
(Ahh there's a hacker skill which started long ago, imaginary vocaulary.)]


Herbert Wengatz

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Jul 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/18/96
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Bob Taylor wrote:
+> On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 in message <1996071522...@lucretia.msu.edu>
+> Aaron Tiensivu said:
+> > I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we
+> > change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user i s the UFS driver.
+> [expletives deleted]
+>
+> Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such language
+> is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!
+>
+> Bob Taylor
+>

If someone really hunts a nasty bug for ??? Days/Weeks, I can understand such comments
*VERY* good. (I just hung for three days in very important project whose end-date
is very soon...)
As long as the most are comments, we can keep them. Any programmer (only those
will read the sources!) will understand the feelings the author has had and as well
will regard this as an explicit warning not to F*CK around with that special code.

Linux is not a "streamlined", high-tech, noble, elite, "pay-too-much-for" product,
like any M$-software. It's rough and crude, since it's written by many developers
from all over the world. You can't expect that they all use a "plain nice high-school-
english". So you can't expect the Linux-sources to be a correct reading for a six year old
girl. Leave the comments in, they are for those who need them and kick out only
the dirty part, which may reach the day-by-day-simple-end-user.

On the other hand, I assume, you'd find some of these expressions in the M$-Sources, too.
:-)

Regards,

Herbert
_____________________________________________________________________
Herbert Wengatz, 81375 Munich |Disclaim: This Mail is my own opinion,
Office :h...@uebemc.siemens.de |not that of my company.
Private:h...@rtfact.muc.de | http://www.muc.de/~hwe/rtfact
"Excellence is a moving target."


Bryn Paul Arnold Jones

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Jul 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/18/96
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On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Systemkennung Linux wrote:
> ["fuck"-ing sources deleted]

>
> I you have ever spent some night tracking bugs you'd know that the skill
> that all programmers share is swearing. These sources are just like live
> and I don't intend to waste a second just to make 'em political correct.
>
> Ralf (Whose best comments luckily never got published ...)
>

I don't have problems with swearing in the source, but anything that gets
out of the sources, and into the binaries (as a printk() does) should be
changed (in this case 'printk("ufs_read_super: fucking Sun blows me\n");',
every time you attempt to mount your problematic partition).

I really don't care if the sentiments are still there, and I don't care if
the exact words are, just as long as they don't get to the binnary (ie
there is a '/* fucking Sun blows me */', and 'printk("ufs_read_super: Sun
messed it up _AGAIN_\n");', that way, programmers see it, but joe adverage
sysadmin dosn't have to worry about posably braking the law (well in the
US anyway) ....
Bryn
--
PGP key pass phrase forgotten, \ Overload -- core meltdown sequence
again :( | initiated.
/ This space is intentionally left
| blank, apart from this text ;-)
\____________________________________

Linus Torvalds

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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Ok, we've had enough discussion about the swear-words in the kernel,
here's my say:

a) Messages seen by users should be "nice", so the "Fucking sun blows me"
message should go, but I'll wait for patches from the _maintainers_ of
that piece of code first, because:

b) I _really_ hate "politically correct". I don't mean I find it mildly
disconcerting, I mean I _really_ dislike it. I find politically correct stuff
so tasteless that I'd rather shake hands with a whore with AIDS (yes, that
_was_ meant to be politically incorrect) than one of the "bible thumpers" (*).

(*) I'm not knocking religion, I'm knocking small-minded people who use
religion or any other "moral reason" to get involved in things they don't
really have anything to do with. If it doesn't hurt anybody else, it's
nobodys business what people do.

In short, in the _occasional_ comment it's perfectly ok to say "Fucking Sun
blows me", because that may actually tell something of the state of mind of
the person when he wrote that special case.. And let's be honest, writing
code is not all about "specifications", and comments aren't just "technical
explanations".

Now, I have to admit that the profanities seem to show up a lot more in the
sparc code than in the rest of the kernel, and Davem might want to clean some
of that up, but because I hate politically correct so much I will _not_
accept patches from others that just change this kind of stuff.

The reason the active kernel messages should be nice is that while I hate
politically correct, I do not believe in being actively offensive either
except when I _want_ to offend somebody. And there is no point in offending
the occasional user.

In contrast, anybody who gets offended by a kernel comment that says bad
things about Sun is either a sun employee who was part of the team who did
the f*ck-up (in which case it's ok to offend him ;), OR he is getting
offended for no good reason. People _do_ f*ck up, and it's ok to point that
out.

Linus "Better offended than bored" Torvalds


Taner Halicioglu

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Khan Klatt wrote:

> At 10:39 PM -0000 7/15/96, Aaron Tiensivu wrote:
> >I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that we

> >change these, just something to chew on. The only one that reaches the user is
> >the UFS driver.
>

> Let me analyze each one of these..


>
> >./fs/isofs/inode.c:/* Some dipshit decided to store some other bit of
> >information in the high
>

> My suggestion: replace with dip(*^$
[...etc...]

Bleh. Leave the code the way it is! I can totally understand altering
any messages that a user will see directly, but to change comments in the
code is "uncool" ;-) I think it gives Linux source a certain...
character... :-)

No need to offend a user, but any kernel hacker should be able to see what
a coder was feeling at the time of writing particular parts of code. I
like the colorful comments :)

-Taner
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[ D. Taner Halicioglu ]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ta...@CERF.NET -=- ta...@ucsd.edu -=- ta...@sdsc.edu
IRC Admin: irc.cerf.net -=- U. of California, San Diego, Computer Sci.
-=-=-=-=-=-=[ Linux 2.0.0 OS -- http://www.sdsc.edu/~taner/ ]=-=-=-=-=-

Bryn Paul Arnold Jones

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Herbert Wengatz wrote:
>
>
> Linux is not a "streamlined", high-tech, noble, elite,
> "pay-too-much-for" product, like any M$-software. It's rough and crude,
> since it's written by many developers from all over the world.

Huh, sorry, you seem to be confused. Linux is a streamlined, high-tech,
noble product written by many devlopers from all over the world.

M$-software is rough, crude, and pay-too-much-for. It's definatly not
optimised for size, or speed.

> You can't expect that they all use a "plain nice high-school- english".
> So you can't expect the Linux-sources to be a correct reading for a six
> year old girl.
>

You can't expect english of any standard from the devlopers that havn't
been taught english, and you can't expect perfectly spelt, and
grammatically correct english from those of us who have been taught it.

> Leave the comments in, they are for those who need them and kick out
> only the dirty part, which may reach the day-by-day-simple-end-user.
>

Hmm, I do think that something like "fucking Sun blows me" sais a lot
less than something like "Bugger, Sun have rewriten the standard, pity
they didn't tell anyone, again...."

>
> On the other hand, I assume, you'd find some of these expressions in
> the M$-Sources, too.

Nope, if they don't like the way everyone else does things, they do there
own thing, and let everyone else support them ....

> :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Herbert

Darrin R. Smith

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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Herbert Wengatz wrote:
>
>
> If someone really hunts a nasty bug for ??? Days/Weeks, I can understand such comments
> *VERY* good. (I just hung for three days in very important project whose end-date
> is very soon...)
> As long as the most are comments, we can keep them. Any programmer (only those
> will read the sources!) will understand the feelings the author has had and as well
> will regard this as an explicit warning not to F*CK around with that special code.
>
> Linux is not a "streamlined", high-tech, noble, elite, "pay-too-much-for" product,
> like any M$-software. It's rough and crude, since it's written by many developers
> from all over the world. You can't expect that they all use a "plain nice high-school-

> english". So you can't expect the Linux-sources to be a correct reading for a six year old
> girl. Leave the comments in, they are for those who need them and kick out only

> the dirty part, which may reach the day-by-day-simple-end-user.
>
> On the other hand, I assume, you'd find some of these expressions in the M$-Sources, too.
> :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Herbert

I've been reading this thread for a while now, and I have to
vote for leaving all comments that do not reach the end user as they
are. Changing them would be a bad idea as they help to express the
personal feelings of the developer to the reader. I don't see how they
could be changed without changing the basic intention of the comment(and
I have read the suggestions posted here, too).
As an interesting side note, I work for a large corp. here, and
I have seen a fair amount of the code written by the developers.
Using vulgarity for expression in source code is _very_ common since
no one will see it but the developers and their bosses.

--Darrin

> _____________________________________________________________________
> Herbert Wengatz, 81375 Munich |Disclaim: This Mail is my own opinion,
> Office :h...@uebemc.siemens.de |not that of my company.
> Private:h...@rtfact.muc.de | http://www.muc.de/~hwe/rtfact
> "Excellence is a moving target."

--
FAQ Suggestions:
Q: I upgraded without reading release notes, now my system's broke -
why?
A: What the @!#* did you expect?
(this assumes that someone reads the faq, of course ;)

Arthur D. Jerijian

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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There's something I didn't mention in all of this discussion:

>./lib/vsprintf.c: * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)

This has been in the kernel since 0.01. :*)

--Arthur

Khan Klatt

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Jul 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/19/96
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At 1:43 PM -0700 7/19/96, David S. Miller wrote:

First of all, let me say your accomplishments are amazing.

The Sparc port, now an SGI port... wow.

There's Kernighan, Ritchie, Torvalds, Wall, Schwartz, Stevens, ..., Miller,
Osterhout, Christiansen, ..., my buddies Matt, Jeff, Andrew, Shawn, Scott,
Me, ..., my 12 year old cousin, ..., and Bill Gates.

;-)

I leave the entire message unmodified for context...

> >./arch/sparc/kernel/sunos_ioctl.c: /* Binary compatibility is good
> >American know how fuckin' up. */
>

> Either @#$%in' or screwin' up.
>
>I am defiantly against making our comment vents look like a Beatle
>Baily comic strip baloon text.
>
>The UFS message is clearly to go, but removing the comments would be
>insane.
>
>(oh and as for corporate source tree's worrying about this, they
> indeed do for the people who buy source licenses from them, there
> are groups of people who scan the tree snapshots they release and
> grep out profanity etc., one cool one that got through was that the
> architecture in question had a common set of 3 instruction sequences
> that were easier to code if macro'ized, they alway came in the
> sequence A; A; A; B; B; B;, they did #define BLOW A; A; A; and
> #define JOB B; B; B;, they put the defines in two different header
> files, and the committee overlooked the particular assembler files
> these were used in, the joke got past the committee as intended ;-)

In one paragraph you say you're against replacing curses with %(*^, and
in the very next, you say that reputable companies make an effort to take
them out when they DO distribute source.

So, if we're going to make our source freely distributed, don't you think
we should have the same considerations that our friends at Sun or SGI or
BSDI do? I mean your point is nice in that it is an anecdote about a
humorous (IMO) situation where they MISSED it, but the point is that
"respected" companies are pulling out the profanities, and we should too.

Remember, although we may feel like our sensibilities are not offended by
this, some very GNU-philosophy (free software/source) people may be far
more religious or conservative about the use of curses in the sources.

The right to swing your fist ends where my face begins, no? (I'm hoping we
can agree to that)

All I'm arguing is that with a "shared source code" that some Linux
developers and others interested in helping out may be offended by the more
extreme statements. I'm assuming your argument, then, is that where you
believe you have put your fist is not where you believe my face to be.

In that case, I can surely point out a end user, a linux developer, or
someone on the street who would find those comments offensive. Consider if
you were writing the source for Linus's mother to look over. Would you
still not consider changing it?

Just some items to make you think of it from my point of view. I could
*personally* care less, I think the comments are funny as is!

-Khan


G. Foulds

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Jul 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/20/96
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On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Arthur D. Jerijian wrote:

> This is too hilarious. I say we LEAVE them in the kernel. After all,
> Linux is supposed to be fun, remember?
>

> --Arthur

In the amount of time it took for the original posters to bother emailing
all of us...he could have just changed whatever comments he deemed
offensive. If anyone ever asked me to change a _comment_ in my code...
they should either go write their own code, or stop using mine.

(Of course, I find it rather amusing to read over source that I've
produced over my semi-standard 30-40 hour workday... Specifically my
choices of both comments, or variable/etc names.... ;)


-=-==-=-
G. Foulds
PGP Key fingerprint = 7C 58 9B A1 CB 09 91 16 ED EE 51 DD 96 0E 6E 4D
-=-==-=-


root

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Jul 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/20/96
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On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Khan Klatt wrote:

> At 10:39 PM -0000 7/15/96, Aaron Tiensivu wrote:

> >I just did a few 'find's because I was curious.. I'm not suggesting that [...etc...]

No need to offend a user, but any kernel hacker should be able to see what
a coder was feeling at the time of writing particular parts of code. I
like the colorful comments :)

-Taner
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[ D. Taner Halicioglu ]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ta...@CERF.NET -=- ta...@ucsd.edu -=- ta...@sdsc.edu
IRC Admin: irc.cerf.net -=- U. of California, San Diego, Computer Sci.
-=-=-=-=-=-=[ Linux 2.0.0 OS -- http://www.sdsc.edu/~taner/ ]=-=-=-=-=-

I fail to see the relevance of the coders feelings to the documentation
of the code! Sheesh!

Bob Taylor


Linus Torvalds

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Jul 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/20/96
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I put out 2.0.8 which should fix the axp checksum routines (there are
obviously other fixes there too, ppp fragmentation etc), but it seems
ftp.funet.fi isn't feeling too well today and it has lost my password or
something so I'm unable to upload it there. It's on ftp.cs.helsinki.fi,
though.

I also noticed that my harddisk on "linux.cs.helsinki.fi" (which is where
I keep the primary development sources) seems to be going, so keep your
fingers crossed. I thought I'd better upload what I have now, rather than
notice that I lost everything when I get back to work on Monday..

(Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff
on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)

Linus


Aaron Tiensivu

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Jul 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/20/96
to

> a) Messages seen by users should be "nice", so the "Fucking sun blows me"
> message should go, but I'll wait for patches from the _maintainers_ of
> that piece of code first, because:

> b) I _really_ hate "politically correct". I don't mean I find it mildly
> disconcerting, I mean I _really_ dislike it. I find politically correct stuff
> so tasteless that I'd rather shake hands with a whore with AIDS (yes, that
> _was_ meant to be politically incorrect) than one of the "bible thumpers" (*).

OK, this thread I think got way out of hand.. I even said in the original
message that I didn't necessarily want the things changed, except for maybe
removing that one printk line. I got flames up the ass from people around the
world thinking I'm some anal-retentive up-tight person, which is not the case
at all.

I've only stepped inside of a church once.. for a wedding.. so, I'm definitely
not some type of religious nut. :)

I just know that if one of my programs at work printed out a line like that, I
would be in deep shit.


Brett Hoffman

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Jul 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/22/96
to

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Eric S. Mountain wrote:

>
> Hear, hear. Political correctness is for people who cannot face up to
> reality, who cannot describe things as they are. These are mentally
> weak people and the terms they use make me sick. They need to learn
> to live and respect others.

Damn your right.

nuff said.. :)

Louis J. LaBash Jr.

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Jul 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/22/96
to

|> b) I _really_ hate "politically correct". I don't mean I find it mildly
|> disconcerting, I mean I _really_ dislike it. I find politically correct stuff
|> so tasteless that I'd rather shake hands with a whore with AIDS (yes, that
|> _was_ meant to be politically incorrect) than one of the "bible thumpers"
(*).

This isn't a political issue, or even a religious issue, and for whores
and AIDS: that's a health issue.

|OK, this thread I think got way out of hand.. I even said in the original
|message that I didn't necessarily want the things changed, except for maybe
|removing that one printk line. I got flames up the ass from people around the
|world thinking I'm some anal-retentive up-tight person, which is not the case
|at all.

You did the correct thing, you pointed out something.

|I've only stepped inside of a church once.. for a wedding.. so, I'm definitely
|not some type of religious nut. :)

If you went to church every day what is wrong with that, and if you never
went to church, nothing wrong there either. Religion is a very personal
issue and freedom of choice (even the choice of none) is paramount.

|I just know that if one of my programs at work printed out a line like that, I
|would be in deep shit.

There is nothing anti/pro religion about the words mentioned, unless Sun
is a religion: the other word explains how we go here :-)
--
Louis-ljl-{LLa...@siue.edu | l...@minuet.siue.edu}


Robert L Krawitz

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Jul 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/22/96
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Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 10:02:21 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Linus Torvalds <torv...@cs.helsinki.fi>

I put out 2.0.8 which should fix the axp checksum routines (there are
obviously other fixes there too, ppp fragmentation etc), but it seems
ftp.funet.fi isn't feeling too well today and it has lost my password or
something so I'm unable to upload it there. It's on ftp.cs.helsinki.fi,
though.

My Byte benchmark numbers are considerably better than 2.0.0 (when I
last ran it). In particular, context switching appears to be faster
(I notice that entry() has been streamlined), and exec is also faster
(probably more due to some enhancements in the memory management).

(Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff
on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)

Think of it as a way to help test the tape driver.


Michail Brzitwa

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Jul 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/22/96
to

> have an 8 year old cousin that likes to visit me and play Doom
> on my Linux box. He can boot it and login himself, however I'm
> sure his dad would be thrilled to find out that he learned
> the above phrase from my Operating System.

I'll never understand this. Let's not tell them about swearing or
fucking but let them play games like Doom. I'd prefer my young cousin
to learn about fun like fucking (americans read: honest but failed
attempts at reproduction) than to play Death Matches. Nevertheless
you're breeding a Linux addict, this is appreciated.

Michail
--
Michail Brzitwa <m...@ichabod.han.de> +49-511-343215


Herbert Wengatz

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Jul 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/23/96
to

On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, I wrote:
+> >
+> > Linux is not a "streamlined", high-tech, noble, elite,
+> > "pay-too-much-for" product, like any M$-software. It's rough and crude,
+> > since it's written by many developers from all over the world.
+>
+> Huh, sorry, you seem to be confused. Linux is a streamlined, high-tech,
+> noble product written by many devlopers from all over the world.
+>
+> M$-software is rough, crude, and pay-too-much-for. It's definatly not
+> optimised for size, or speed.
+>
OK! Beat me for this! - This is the part, most of you got me wrong.
At first, I mean, every "professional" Software, like any M$-Product,
looks to the end-user "nice, clean, easy, sunshine, happiness" or whatever
you want to call it. They do only LOOK this way! Internally they are the
crap, you realize, when you try to really _use_ the software! :-))))))

They LOOK clean and nice, _because_ all these companies remove all
toughness from the sources, before it gets delivered. - But this is like
a big lie to me.

Linux is in contrary honest. We don't have anything to hide. - Remember,
you get the code for free...

So if the reader can't stand the real life of a programmer, he should
IMHO go fishing somewhere else!

What the "crudeness" of Linux concerns:
It is nearly impossible to keep within such a large project a continouus
high level of good prgramming style. Especially, when all the developers
are scattered all over the world. - I really admire Linus for this!
(Lifting my hat and bowing down towards Linus!) - But: Linux is getter
better with every Release! In contrary to any (..hmmm don't want to
use names... - But it starts very small and end very squishy... ;) )
big company that sells OSes.

And... Of course I meant M$-software is: "paid-too-much-for" ! :-)))))

Linux is for free. Anybody who pays more, pays too much. - It's that simple! :-)

+> > You can't expect that they all use a "plain nice high-school- english".
+> > So you can't expect the Linux-sources to be a correct reading for a six
+> > year old girl.
+> >
+>
+> You can't expect english of any standard from the devlopers that havn't
+> been taught english, and you can't expect perfectly spelt, and
+> grammatically correct english from those of us who have been taught it.

I don't expected this. It's OK for me ! :-)))))

+> > Leave the comments in, they are for those who need them and kick out
+> > only the dirty part, which may reach the day-by-day-simple-end-user.
+> >
+> Hmm, I do think that something like "fucking Sun blows me" sais a lot
+> less than something like "Bugger, Sun have rewriten the standard, pity
+> they didn't tell anyone, again...."

Wellll...

You are of course right. Your sentence says a lot more. - But it doesn't reflect
the programmer's feelings, when he/she (? ;-) ) found it out.

He/She was angry (for a good reason I beleive), and as usual, when you still
have a lot more to do, it's late in the night (early in the morning ? ;-) ),
you don't want to care any longer, but you want to tell (?) someone, who reaches
this part of code, ever, just _WHAT_ _A_ _BIG_ _BLACK_ _BULLSH*T_ you had to fight
with. - Whenenver you'll read your own lines of comment, you'll easyly remember
what happened. ;-)

+> > On the other hand, I assume, you'd find some of these expressions in
+> > the M$-Sources, too.
+>
+> Nope, if they don't like the way everyone else does things, they do there
+> own thing, and let everyone else support them ....
+>

So they do their own, _BIG_ _BLACK_ BULLSH*T_, and let everybody else support
them. - You are right! :-))))))

+> > :-)
+> >
+> > Regards,
+> >
+> > Herbert

+> Bryn
+> --
+> PGP key pass phrase forgotten, \ Overload -- core meltdown sequence
+> again :( | initiated.
+> / This space is intentionally left
+> | blank, apart from this text ;-)
+> \____________________________________
Yours sincerely,

Herbert


_____________________________________________________________________
Herbert Wengatz, 81375 Munich |Disclaim: This Mail is my own opinion,
Office :h...@uebemc.siemens.de |not that of my company.
Private:h...@rtfact.muc.de | http://www.muc.de/~hwe/rtfact

->"Political correctness is the feather duster they tickle a homeless
with, to distract him from his starvation."<- Me.

Jochen Toppe

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Jul 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/24/96
to

Bible Thumper? Anyhow....

#
# Using defaults found in .config
#
*
* Code maturity level options
*
Prompt for development and/or incomplete code/drivers (CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL) [Y/n/?]
System messages featuring finest profanity (CONFIG_VULGAR) [Y/n/?]
*
* Loadable module support
*
.... *ducks*

Here are my two bits: A natural amount of profanity in the
appropriate places of the code ("Sun blows me"..) are fine, but that
is no incentive to have a kernel which constantly curses, that would
probably get on every users nerve sooner or later. Wasn't there a
proposal to create a curse-kernel? Well, there still is that config
option thing? curse patches? *ducks again*. Mamma mia, I should go now =)
Where is this thread going anyways? Let it be up to Master Linus?

__ _____
/ / _ __ /7 __ _ /_ _/_ _ _ __ Jochen Toppe
n_/ /,'o|,','/ \,'o// \/7 / /,'o| /o| /o|,'o/ Email:jto...@cs.uah.edu
\_,' |_,'\_\/n_/|_(/_n_/ /_/ |_,'/_,'/_,'|_( Tel. : (205) 880-1**5
// //
---->>> http://fly.hiwaay.net/~jtoppe <<<----

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Lex Spoon wrote:

> Khan Klatt wrote:
> >
> > In one paragraph you say you're against replacing curses with %(*^, and
> > in the very next, you say that reputable companies make an effort to take
> > them out when they DO distribute source.
> >
> > So, if we're going to make our source freely distributed, don't you think
> > we should have the same considerations that our friends at Sun or SGI or
> > BSDI do?
>

> (not directed at Khan in particular)
>
> The of a cooperation is to make money. The goal of politically
> correctness is ugly politics.
>
> The goal of Linux should be to make a good OS, and vulgar comments
> make the source code friendlier to hacker-types. How many people
> here are honestly offended by vulgarity? Probably a large
> number, like myelf, actually PREFER it.
>
>
> Lex
>
>
>

James L. McGill

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Jul 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/24/96
to

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Khan Klatt wrote:

khan} >./drivers/cdrom/mcd.c: that are supposedly "OUT OF TOLERANCE" (but are
khan} >really shitty presses!)
khan}
khan} Replace with crappy.

I prefer 'shiddy'
passes the grep test :-)


khan} >./lib/vsprintf.c: * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)
khan}
khan} Torvalds @#$%ed it up :-)

fuct it up

Oo
\__/

--
g-r-a-t-e-f-u-l-l-y---[ email:<fish...@conservatory.com> ]---l-i-v-i-n-g
d-e-a-d-i-c-a-t-e-d---[ http://www.conservatory.com/~fishbowl ]-----l-i-g-h-t

Derrik Pates

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Jul 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/24/96
to

On 22 Jul 1996, Kai Henningsen wrote:

> Personally, that group doesn't interest me. I don't recognize their right
> to dictate vocabulary.
>
> So consequently, when I use swearwords, they are obviously NOT meant to
> shock anybody. They are meant to relieve some tension, or sometimes for
> emphasis. This actually seems to work most of the time.

I have to agree with this - some people still find swearing to be
"shocking", but it is, for better or worse, an element of the world
culture. I do NOT find it shocking, as most everyone I know has used at
least one swear-word (usually more) in the time I've known them.

> By the way, "politically correct" is an obscene concept in *my* eyes, and
> somehow I get the feeling I'm not alone in this.

Political correctness is the dumbest concept ever to hit the face of the
earth. Linux developers and users, as far as I am concerned, should not
worry about "political correctness" as it is an extremely obscene, not to
mention worthless, concept. If someone wants to swear, let them. Those who
want political correctness, let them seek it elsewhere. It's not here, nor
is it in the Linux Kernel source.

Derrik Pates
dpa...@cavern.nmsu.edu
--
"Some help would be nice... Or a sandwich and a cold beer!!!" --Boston Low,
"The Dig"

David Schwartz

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Jul 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/25/96
to

Can we end this thread. It's getting kind of annoying. Especially
considering that every time I see the phrase 'bible thumper', I read it
as 'bible humper'.

DS

Michael Harnois

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Jul 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/25/96
to

>Can we end this thread. It's getting kind of annoying. Especially
>considering that every time I see the phrase 'bible thumper', I read it
>as 'bible humper'.

I'm all for ending the thread. I don't understand what all the fuss is anyway,
and I'm a clergyperson! Along that line, it's amazing to me how much this
discussion is like most church meetings ... no one really has anything to say
but lots of people just can't rest until they've said it.


Jochen Toppe

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Jul 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/25/96
to

I don't understand the reason as why this needs to be changed???
What so bad about these comments that they feed this entire discussion?
Anyhow, I must agree with Linus's post earlier today on this list.
And to the "fuct" instead of "fucked": I believe that just like the whole
story about the word "darn" - It seems to be accepted, but in the end
you're still cursing, as words are just symbols and if they mean the same
thing they're the same word [To put that in one sentence =)] That would
just make you a cursing hypocrite. So let's please just leave the stuff
in the kernel's comments and not replace it with stupid stuff. What do we
have to loose???

Best Regards,

P.S. I finally changed that subject line, as this topic has simply
nothing to do with the Bible as with Humping..eehhh. Thumper =)

__ _____
/ / _ __ /7 __ _ /_ _/_ _ _ __ Jochen Toppe
n_/ /,'o|,','/ \,'o// \/7 / /,'o| /o| /o|,'o/ Email:jto...@cs.uah.edu

\_,' |_,'\_\/n_/|_(/_n_/ /_/ |_,'/_,'/_,'|_( Tel. : (205) 880-1345


// //
---->>> http://fly.hiwaay.net/~jtoppe <<<----

On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, James L. McGill wrote:

Kai Henningsen

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Jul 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/29/96
to

Hell, and I wanted to leave this thread ...

jee...@spieg.interealm.com (Christopher Hassell) wrote on 23.07.96 in <1996072316...@interealm.com>:

> America, a Country after my own heart, has grown to believe anything
> Shocking is somehow Real whereas anything that is polite, restrained,
> disciplined or thoughtful is "Fake" and "Suppressed". Going overseas shows
> quickly how appreciated this is in, say, polite portions of England or
> Germany.

Are you in for a surprise.

Really. It's the US who has made political correctness into a (very
dubious) artform.

Around here, there's a lot less of it, and even that much gets criticized.

Political correctness is NOT the same as "polite, restrained, disciplined
or thoughtful".

No, we don't cuss all the time. But we also don't think a curse is a major
social disaster.

And one more thing that people don't seem to understand.

These three are very much different:

"Fuck you."

"Oh fuck, it's broken *again*."

"I'm the one who fucked this up."

Only one of these is an insult. One expresses frustration. And one tries
to shield someone else from a third party's (potential) anger.

Putting all of these into the same category, because of vocabulary, is
just plain silly.

MfG Kai


Kai Henningsen

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Jul 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/29/96
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mar...@zamenhof.demon.co.uk (Martin Radford) wrote on 22.07.96 in <m0ui8WO...@zamenhof.demon.co.uk>:

> users. Would anyone want their child to learn the word "fuck" because
> their operating system used it? I think not!

I've read this one several times now, and it still makes no sense to me.

In my experience, children are the part of the population that most often
use what English-speaking people call "four-letter-words". They usually
learn them from their peers.

Do you really think they need an OS kernel message to learn those words?
Most probably know them even before they can read.

MfG Kai

(Well, I've been _trying_ to keep out today. Grmpf.)


Eric Princen

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Jul 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/31/96
to

In article <1996071703...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>, From root
<ro...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>, the following was written:

> Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such language
> is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!

If the original author wants to change what he wrote to be more
professional, let him do so. I agree that messages that users see
should not be offensive, but that is so subjective. What is offensive
to some is not to others. Going along changing the author's words
without his/her approval is just wrong, IMHO. If they agree to do it,
fine. We could write a "Linux PC source code filter". It could change
shit to shucks for the easily bothered. They can run it on the source
and be confident that their computers are "clean". This may seem very
sarcastic, but I am serious. Sounds like a job for you. Add your 2
cents to the project.

-Eric ;-)

--
Eric Princen er...@dvorak.com [Dvorak]
07/31/96 12:58
OUI 1.5 is released!
http://www.dvorak.com/~ericp


Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr

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Jul 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/31/96
to

Hi!

In article <0996063112583...@dvorak.com>,
Eric Princen <er...@dvorak.com> wrote:
[...]


>We could write a "Linux PC source code filter". It could change
>shit to shucks for the easily bothered.

anyone ever _used_ santa?

--
Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr can not assert the truth of all statements in
this article and still be consistent. <mi...@cosy.sbg.ac.at>


Brad Pepers

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Jul 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/31/96
to

> Hi!
>
> In article <0996063112583...@dvorak.com>,
> Eric Princen <er...@dvorak.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >We could write a "Linux PC source code filter". It could change
> >shit to shucks for the easily bothered.
>
> anyone ever _used_ santa?

Well I've *had* him but thats another story! 8^)

Sorry - couldn't resist! Plus its in bad taste which kind of fits with
what I think if this whole thread!

> Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr can not assert the truth of all statements in
> this article and still be consistent. <mi...@cosy.sbg.ac.at>

+----------------------------Ren & Stimpy--------------------------------+
| "Psst. Hey Guido. It's all so clear to me now. I'm the keeper of the |
| cheese. And you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it. That's |
| why he's gonna kill us. So we gotta beat it. Yeah. Before he lets |
| loose the marmosets on us! Don't worry, little missy! I'll save you!" |
+------------------ Brad Pepers -- pep...@cuug.ab.ca -------------------+

root

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Jul 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/31/96
to

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Princen <er...@dvorak.com> writes:

Eric> In article <1996071703...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>, From
Eric> root <ro...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us>, the following was written:


>> Politeness, normal conduct and professionalism dictates. Such
>> language is rude, crude, vulgar and asinine! IMHO -- remove!

Eric> If the original author wants to change what he wrote to be
Eric> more professional, let him do so. I agree that messages
Eric> that users see should not be offensive, but that is so
Eric> subjective. What is offensive to some is not to others.
Eric> Going along changing the author's words without his/her
Eric> approval is just wrong, IMHO. If they agree to do it, fine.
Eric> We could write a "Linux PC source code filter". It could
Eric> change shit to shucks for the easily bothered. They can run
Eric> it on the source and be confident that their computers are
Eric> "clean". This may seem very sarcastic, but I am serious.
Eric> Sounds like a job for you. Add your 2 cents to the project.

Eric> -Eric ;-)

Eric> -- Eric Princen er...@dvorak.com [Dvorak] 07/31/96 12:58 OUI
Eric> 1.5 is released! http://www.dvorak.com/~ericp

My point, while perhaps not clear, was that such language in a
professional enviornment is inappropriate. Too many posts I have
read condone or even praise such language. My reference to "remove"
was to the printk.

It was never my intention to insult anyone although it seems others
are only too willing to insult me while hiding behind email addresses
I cannot reach.

It is still my understanding that such language is still considered
vulgar. At least in the U.S.

I think enough has been said.

Thank you for your comments.

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bob Taylor Email: b...@qtpi.lakewood.ca.us |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A witty statement goes here! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

lilo

unread,
Aug 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/4/96
to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, root wrote:

> My point, while perhaps not clear, was that such language in a
> professional enviornment is inappropriate. Too many posts I have
> read condone or even praise such language. My reference to "remove"
> was to the printk.
>
> It was never my intention to insult anyone although it seems others
> are only too willing to insult me while hiding behind email addresses
> I cannot reach.
>
> It is still my understanding that such language is still considered
> vulgar. At least in the U.S.

If the language needs to be vetted for various venues in the US, that can be
done. It would certainly be helpful for someone to make such a program
available. I think it would be an unnecessary inconvenience to have to
change the canonical source.

I've been programming for 28 years (in the U.S.) and 23 of those in
professional environments, and I simply don't see a problem. Nor would most
of my peers. I think my parents and grandparents would consider it vulgar,
but I just consider it a bit on the `colorful' side. As long as the actual
end-users don't have to see it; I think we can assume that programmers will
be adult and motivated enough to overcome their various cultural biases. Or
flexible enough to rewrite the comments for their own consumption.

Your mileage apparently varies, and that's fine....


lilo

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