Logitech K360 keyboard NumLock behavior gets turned on by Shift keys!
Gilbert Sullivan
the Alt, Ctrl, and Shift keys with the numeric keypad keys to select and
move text and to move around through text.
This is the first time I've encountered a keyboard that activates the
NumLock when either Shift key is depressed. So, when I press Shift-End,
instead of selecting text to the end of the line, the numeral "1" is
entered!
If I use this keyboard with a Windows system, the NumLock / numeric
keypad all function as expected, allowing me to make proper use of the
keypad in an editor.
I've used a number of other external keyboards with this system (Lenovo
T520i with AMD64 image, Debian testing), and all of them exhibit the
behavior I expect from NumLock -- namely that it stays off when I turn
it off, and it stays on when I turn it on.
I've called Logitech support, and they say that this behavior is
"unexpected".
I tried a number of the alternative Logitech keyboard layouts listed in
Xfce's settings, but none of them fixes the issue. (I figured that most
of the "special" keyboard layouts are for get special function keys to
work, anyhow, but I thought I'd give it a shot.) Is this keyboard going
to need a special driver if it is to behave properly?
I really like the keyboard. It's comfortable, tiny, and quiet. The
manufacturer claims around a 3 year battery life. It's got a lot of nice
features, but I'm going to have to work hard to train my fingers out of
a couple of decades of practiced behavior when I'm trying to select text.
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Camaleón
(...)
> This is the first time I've encountered a keyboard that activates the
> NumLock when either Shift key is depressed. So, when I press Shift-End,
> instead of selecting text to the end of the line, the numeral "1" is
> entered!
(...)
Hmmm, weird, indeed.
(just out of curiosity, when num. lock is off, what returns shift-home?)
What it is expected is that with num. lock off, shift-keypad numbers
overrides num. lock off status and prints the number but getting number
one when pressing shift-end is something I would neither expect :-)
Maybe you can make some comparison of the key you get using "xev", that
is, run xev, put num. lock off and press shift (read the screen) then
press end and see if what you get difference when you do the same but
with num. lock enabled :-?
Greetings,
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Gilbert Sullivan
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:58:45 -0400, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> This is the first time I've encountered a keyboard that activates the
>> NumLock when either Shift key is depressed. So, when I press Shift-End,
>> instead of selecting text to the end of the line, the numeral "1" is
>> entered!
>
> (...)
that I was lying, but I was. (I'll explain at the bottom.)
;-)
I've been doing some experimenting since I made my whining post, and I
learned a little something.
This behavior is by default different between the Windows systems and
the GNU/Linux systems I have available to me here.
K360 connected to Windows system with NumLock OFF: Holding either Shift
key while pressing numeric keypad keys DOES NOT cause numerals to be
printed to screen in a text editor. Instead, one can use the Shift key
in combination with the numeric keypad keys to mark or select text --
just as though one were pressing the Shift key while using the
non-numeric-keypad arrow, Home, End, PgUp, and PgDn keys.
K360 connected to Linux system with NumLock OFF: Holding either Shift
key DOES cause numerals to be printed to the screen. The Shift key in
combination with numeric keypad keys can NOT be used for marking text,
which is what I'd like to use it for.
>
> Hmmm, weird, indeed.
>
> (just out of curiosity, when num. lock is off, what returns shift-home?)
numeric keypad.
> What it is expected is that with num. lock off, shift-keypad numbers
> overrides num. lock off status and prints the number but getting number
> one when pressing shift-end is something I would neither expect :-)
numeral 1 in its "upper case" location. With NumLock turned off the
Shift-End combination is behaving functionally the way the Shift-Home
combination behaves. They both print numerals (different ones, of
course) to the screen.
>
> Maybe you can make some comparison of the key you get using "xev", that
> is, run xev, put num. lock off and press shift (read the screen) then
> press end and see if what you get difference when you do the same but
> with num. lock enabled :-?
system running the Gnome DE that there is a setting in
gnome-keyboard-properties that lets me switch this function so that the
keyboard functions the way I want it to work -- with NumLock in the off
condition the Shift key doesn't override and turn on the numbers. In
other words, I want the numeric keypad to behave with the shift key
depressed exactly as it behaves with the Ctrl key depressed. No numbers,
just cursor movement.
I am, however, using Xfce as my DE, and I'm not at all interested in
using Gnome. I imagine that, if I work hard enough at it, I'll find a
way to change the behavior to suit me in Xfce.
And now for the explanation of the "lying" I was doing (if anyone cares)...
This new keyboard is a compact one -- barely larger than the notebook's
keyboard. The non-numeric-keypad Home, End, PgUp, and PgDn keys are
located above the numeric keypad instead of between the numeric keypad
and the QWERTY section. Not only are they a longer reach from the home
position, they are small -- less than half the size of the regular keys
on this keyboard. It would really be nice if I could use the ones on the
numeric keypad for marking text.
I have been assuming all along that numeric keypad NumLock behavior was
the same in Windows and Linux, but I have been using nice, big keyboards
since before I switched to Linux. Therefore, I have been using the
dedicated Home, End, PgUp, and PgDn keys because they were more
convenient to reach on those big keyboards than the numeric keypad ones.
And I have been assuming that nothing had changed between Windows and
Linux in behavior of NumLock simply because I haven't been using the
numeric keypad for anything but typing numbers. But with this small
keyboard, that all changed.
There's that work again -- ASS-ume. They say that it makes an ASS out of
U and ME. Well, it didn't do anything to you, but it certainly made an
ass of me!
8-)
I'll be a good boy and do my homework to find out how to fix this to
suit me.
Thank you so much, Camaleón, for trying to help me. As I'm certain you
are aware, some people (Irish men, in particular) are virtually
unhelpable. I was assuming that this was a hardware problem. It was. But
the problem hardware was not under my fingers, it was between my ears.
Best regards,
Gilbert
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Camaleón
> On 09/15/2011 10:29 AM, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:58:45 -0400, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>> This is the first time I've encountered a keyboard that activates the
>>> NumLock when either Shift key is depressed. So, when I press
>>> Shift-End, instead of selecting text to the end of the line, the
>>> numeral "1" is entered!
>>
>> (...)
>
> It turns out that I was lying when I said the above. I didn't *think*
> that I was lying, but I was. (I'll explain at the bottom.)
>
> ;-)
inadvertently :-)
(...)
> K360 connected to Linux system with NumLock OFF: Holding either Shift
> key DOES cause numerals to be printed to the screen. The Shift key in
> combination with numeric keypad keys can NOT be used for marking text,
> which is what I'd like to use it for.
>> Hmmm, weird, indeed.
>>
>> (just out of curiosity, when num. lock is off, what returns
>> shift-home?)
>
> It returns the numeral 7, if we're talking about the Home key on the
> numeric keypad.
Nope, I mean the common "home" key. I also get a "7" when I turn off num.
lock, press shift and type numeric keypad "7", that's how it has to be.
You get "home/end" "page up/page down" moving with numeric keypad only
when num. lock is turned off and the shift key is not pressed. Shift key
modifies the behaviour of many keys, num. lock and caps lock included, at
least in an X session :-)
Greetings,
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Camaleón
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Camaleón
(sorry to be so succinct on my last post but I had to go out and had no
the time to reply to you appropriately) :-)
>> Maybe you can make some comparison of the key you get using "xev", that
>> is, run xev, put num. lock off and press shift (read the screen) then
>> press end and see if what you get difference when you do the same but
>> with num. lock enabled :-?
>
> I can work with that later. In the meantime I've learned by looking at a
> system running the Gnome DE that there is a setting in
> gnome-keyboard-properties that lets me switch this function so that the
> keyboard functions the way I want it to work -- with NumLock in the off
> condition the Shift key doesn't override and turn on the numbers. In
> other words, I want the numeric keypad to behave with the shift key
> depressed exactly as it behaves with the Ctrl key depressed. No numbers,
> just cursor movement.
>
> I am, however, using Xfce as my DE, and I'm not at all interested in
> using Gnome. I imagine that, if I work hard enough at it, I'll find a
> way to change the behavior to suit me in Xfce.
Hum... okay, so you finally discovered that the behaviour you got was the
usual one (nothing wrong here) and besides you also found the way to get
the behaviour _you want_ (shift not overriding num. lock) when using
GNOME by means of gnome-keyboard-properties but you like more XFCE and
want to be there, right? :-)
Well, for this I can give you two hints:
1/ Install just "gnome-keyboard-properties" (which is part of the gnome-
control-center package) in XFCE. Duuno if this will pull many unwanted
dependencies, if yes, stop.
2/ GNOME stores the values set from the "gnome-keyboard-properties"
applet under "/etc/X11/xkb/base.xml", maybe you can use this file also in
XFCE to mimic the desired key-combo behaviour :-?
Greetings,
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Gilbert Sullivan
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:35:35 -0400, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:
>
> (sorry to be so succinct on my last post but I had to go out and had no
> the time to reply to you appropriately) :-)
>
I greatly appreciate any time you have for me.
>>> Maybe you can make some comparison of the key you get using "xev", that
>>> is, run xev, put num. lock off and press shift (read the screen) then
>>> press end and see if what you get difference when you do the same but
>>> with num. lock enabled :-?
>>
>> I can work with that later. In the meantime I've learned by looking at a
>> system running the Gnome DE that there is a setting in
>> gnome-keyboard-properties that lets me switch this function so that the
>> keyboard functions the way I want it to work -- with NumLock in the off
>> condition the Shift key doesn't override and turn on the numbers. In
>> other words, I want the numeric keypad to behave with the shift key
>> depressed exactly as it behaves with the Ctrl key depressed. No numbers,
>> just cursor movement.
>>
>> I am, however, using Xfce as my DE, and I'm not at all interested in
>> using Gnome. I imagine that, if I work hard enough at it, I'll find a
>> way to change the behavior to suit me in Xfce.
>
> Hum... okay, so you finally discovered that the behaviour you got was the
> usual one (nothing wrong here) and besides you also found the way to get
> the behaviour _you want_ (shift not overriding num. lock) when using
> GNOME by means of gnome-keyboard-properties but you like more XFCE and
> want to be there, right? :-)
>
> Well, for this I can give you two hints:
>
> 1/ Install just "gnome-keyboard-properties" (which is part of the gnome-
> control-center package) in XFCE. Duuno if this will pull many unwanted
> dependencies, if yes, stop.
Yes, I had already considered that, but I'm not finding a way in
aptitude to limit this installation in any meaningful way. Looks like a
LOT of dependencies. I wouldn't really worry about the number or size of
the dependencies, per se, but I'm concerned that I might be adversely
affecting my DE.
>
> 2/ GNOME stores the values set from the "gnome-keyboard-properties"
> applet under "/etc/X11/xkb/base.xml", maybe you can use this file also in
> XFCE to mimic the desired key-combo behaviour :-?
>
> Greetings,
>
On my Xfce systems that file doesn't exist. I can do some research and
experimentation to see if something along this line may work. I'm also
looking at the Xfce keyboard properties files to see if I might be able
to accomplish what I want by editing them. The problem is that I'm not
having any luck finding documentation on those files -- particularly
with respect to implementing new features.
I'm also doing research on XMODMAP to see if I can do something with it.
Many thanks, Camale�n, for your great ideas.
Best regards,
Gilbert
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Camaleón
> On 09/16/2011 07:35 AM, Camaleón wrote:
(...)
>> 1/ Install just "gnome-keyboard-properties" (which is part of the
>> gnome- control-center package) in XFCE. Duuno if this will pull many
>> unwanted dependencies, if yes, stop.
>
> Yes, I had already considered that, but I'm not finding a way in
> aptitude to limit this installation in any meaningful way. Looks like a
> LOT of dependencies. I wouldn't really worry about the number or size of
> the dependencies, per se, but I'm concerned that I might be adversely
> affecting my DE.
>> 2/ GNOME stores the values set from the "gnome-keyboard-properties"
>> applet under "/etc/X11/xkb/base.xml", maybe you can use this file also
>> in XFCE to mimic the desired key-combo behaviour :-?
>>
>>
>>
> experimentation to see if something along this line may work. I'm also
> looking at the Xfce keyboard properties files to see if I might be able
> to accomplish what I want by editing them. The problem is that I'm not
> having any luck finding documentation on those files -- particularly
> with respect to implementing new features.
http://wiki.xfce.org/faq#keyboard
Which seems pointing to "xfce4-xkb-plugin" package, do you already have
this one installed? At a first glance the plugin looks very similar to
"gnome-keyboard-properties", maybe you can edit the keyboard layout
options from here :-?
> I'm also doing research on XMODMAP to see if I can do something with it.
>
You're welcome :-)
Greetings,
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Gilbert Sullivan
> Mmm, I've found this:
>
> http://wiki.xfce.org/faq#keyboard
>
> Which seems pointing to "xfce4-xkb-plugin" package, do you already have
> this one installed? At a first glance the plugin looks very similar to
> "gnome-keyboard-properties", maybe you can edit the keyboard layout
> options from here :-?
Yes. I should have mentioned that I had read the xfce.org faq. This
plugin was already present on my system as a standard part of the
"goodies" meta-package. AFAICT it only exposes the same functionality as
the keyboard properties applet in Xfce settings. This looks very much
like the gnome-keyboard-settings applet, but it's just missing the
"miscellaneous compatibility settings" feature. That's where gnome
provides the ability to make the NumLock / Shift key behave the way they
do on Windows systems.
Heh. I've been doing so much editing the past couple of days I'll
probably have adapted to the keyboard working this way before I find out
how to change the behavior!
;-)
But it's all worth it anyway, if I can do a little learning.
One thing that's been getting me into a bit of trouble is that I've done
some editing on remote Windows systems, and I've been falling back into
the habit of using the numeric keypad a la Windows behavior. Then when I
switch back to editing on the local machine I'm all thumbs again.
You've been more than helpful. I just have to do my homework to figure
this out -- now that I know that I'm not seeing aberrant behavior from
either Debian testing OR from the keyboard hardware. Between xev and
xmodmap a little time and experimentation may provide me what I need.
The xfce faq does warn that there have been quite a few issues using
xmodmap. I guess I'll find out!
Many thanks again.
Best regards,
Gilbert
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Camaleón
> On 09/16/2011 10:46 AM, Camaleón wrote:
>> Mmm, I've found this:
>>
>> http://wiki.xfce.org/faq#keyboard
>>
>> Which seems pointing to "xfce4-xkb-plugin" package, do you already have
>> this one installed? At a first glance the plugin looks very similar to
>> "gnome-keyboard-properties", maybe you can edit the keyboard layout
>> options from here :-?
>
> Yes. I should have mentioned that I had read the xfce.org faq. This
> plugin was already present on my system as a standard part of the
> "goodies" meta-package. AFAICT it only exposes the same functionality as
> the keyboard properties applet in Xfce settings. This looks very much
> like the gnome-keyboard-settings applet, but it's just missing the
> "miscellaneous compatibility settings" feature. That's where gnome
> provides the ability to make the NumLock / Shift key behave the way they
> do on Windows systems.
Ouch! :-)
> Heh. I've been doing so much editing the past couple of days I'll
> probably have adapted to the keyboard working this way before I find out
> how to change the behavior!
>
> ;-)
>
> But it's all worth it anyway, if I can do a little learning.
>
> One thing that's been getting me into a bit of trouble is that I've done
> some editing on remote Windows systems, and I've been falling back into
> the habit of using the numeric keypad a la Windows behavior. Then when I
> switch back to editing on the local machine I'm all thumbs again.
>
> You've been more than helpful. I just have to do my homework to figure
> this out -- now that I know that I'm not seeing aberrant behavior from
> either Debian testing OR from the keyboard hardware. Between xev and
> xmodmap a little time and experimentation may provide me what I need.
> The xfce faq does warn that there have been quite a few issues using
> xmodmap. I guess I'll find out!
Hum... I've been reading the file that is present in GNOME ("/etc/X11/xkb/
base.xml") and I think the variable you need to set in "/etc/default/
keyboard" could be "XKBOPTIONS=numpad:microsoft" (applying this this may
require a reboot) that way this will become a system-wide setting
regardless the DE :-?
Greetings,
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Gilbert Sullivan
> Hum... I've been reading the file that is present in GNOME ("/etc/X11/xkb/
> base.xml") and I think the variable you need to set in "/etc/default/
> keyboard" could be "XKBOPTIONS=numpad:microsoft" (applying this this may
> require a reboot) that way this will become a system-wide setting
> regardless the DE :-?
playing with xev and a ~/.Xmodmap file! I was going to remap all of the
keycodes for Shift-<numeric-key> combinations so that they always gave
the directional results instead of numbers. (I know this would likely
have led to some undesireable results. I was going to play with it until
I had to admit defeat or until my family whacked me up the side of the
head.)
Following your earlier hints I had already asked my Ubuntu / Gnome buddy
(one of those BOFH types) if I could look at his system to see
/etc/X11/xkb/base.xml (which doesn't exist on my system) with his
NumLock behavior set to mimic Windows. He was giving me grief for asking
him to sully his system with this setting. I may have stepped on his
toes a little when I muttered something about it being pretty hard to
"sully" an Ubuntu system. He said that he'd show me the file in a while,
and then he left work for the weekend! (He'll claim on Monday that he
forgot.)
Now what am I going to do with my weekend? Thanks to you I am now typing
this from a properly-behaved (for my purposes) keyboard.
All I had to do was to change the line
XKBOPTIONS=""
to
XKBOPTIONS="numpad:microsoft"
in /etc/default/keyboard and then reboot.
You're a living doll!
Best regards,
Gilbert
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Camaleón
> On 09/16/2011 12:52 PM, Camaleón wrote:
>> Hum... I've been reading the file that is present in GNOME
>> ("/etc/X11/xkb/ base.xml") and I think the variable you need to set in
>> "/etc/default/ keyboard" could be "XKBOPTIONS=numpad:microsoft"
>> (applying this this may require a reboot) that way this will become a
>> system-wide setting regardless the DE :-?
>
> Oh, come on, Camaleón! You've just spoiled my plans to waste a weekend
> playing with xev and a ~/.Xmodmap file! I was going to remap all of the
> keycodes for Shift-<numeric-key> combinations so that they always gave
> the directional results instead of numbers. (I know this would likely
> have led to some undesireable results. I was going to play with it until
> I had to admit defeat or until my family whacked me up the side of the
> head.)
(extended version) of The Lord Of The Rings with no distractions :-P
> Following your earlier hints I had already asked my Ubuntu / Gnome buddy
> (one of those BOFH types) if I could look at his system to see
> /etc/X11/xkb/base.xml (which doesn't exist on my system) with his
> NumLock behavior set to mimic Windows. He was giving me grief for asking
> him to sully his system with this setting. I may have stepped on his
> toes a little when I muttered something about it being pretty hard to
> "sully" an Ubuntu system. He said that he'd show me the file in a while,
> and then he left work for the weekend! (He'll claim on Monday that he
> forgot.)
>
> Now what am I going to do with my weekend? Thanks to you I am now typing
> this from a properly-behaved (for my purposes) keyboard.
>
> All I had to do was to change the line
>
> XKBOPTIONS=""
>
> to
>
> XKBOPTIONS="numpad:microsoft"
>
> in /etc/default/keyboard and then reboot.
>
> You're a living doll!
I'm afraid you will also have to thanks Google's smart algorithms. Heck,
I made a simple search for "xmodmap+numpad:microsoft" (you were insisting
in xmodmap so much...) and one of the results lead me to that setting
but, to be sincere, I wasn't sure if that was going to work O:-)
Greetings,
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Gilbert Sullivan
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:24:01 -0400, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:
>
>> On 09/16/2011 12:52 PM, Camaleón wrote:
>>> Hum... I've been reading the file that is present in GNOME
>>> ("/etc/X11/xkb/ base.xml") and I think the variable you need to set in
>>> "/etc/default/ keyboard" could be "XKBOPTIONS=numpad:microsoft"
>>> (applying this this may require a reboot) that way this will become a
>>> system-wide setting regardless the DE :-?
>>
>> Oh, come on, Camaleón! You've just spoiled my plans to waste a weekend
>> playing with xev and a ~/.Xmodmap file! I was going to remap all of the
>> keycodes for Shift-<numeric-key> combinations so that they always gave
>> the directional results instead of numbers. (I know this would likely
>> have led to some undesireable results. I was going to play with it until
>> I had to admit defeat or until my family whacked me up the side of the
>> head.)
>
> Now you can relax, take a cold beer and watch on your HDTV the full saga
> (extended version) of The Lord Of The Rings with no distractions :-P
How did you know I was a couch potato? (I guess I give off the "vibe".)
Actually, we'll probably be watching Bramwell all weekend. We just
started watching it on Netflix this week and absolutely love it.
But, knowing this family, if I mention Lord of the Rings there will at
least be a debate. We're also suckers for Firefly and anything from
Gilbert and Sullivan (purely coincidence re the name). Talk about
eclectic tastes!
>
>> Following your earlier hints I had already asked my Ubuntu / Gnome buddy
>> (one of those BOFH types) if I could look at his system to see
>> /etc/X11/xkb/base.xml (which doesn't exist on my system) with his
>> NumLock behavior set to mimic Windows. He was giving me grief for asking
>> him to sully his system with this setting. I may have stepped on his
>> toes a little when I muttered something about it being pretty hard to
>> "sully" an Ubuntu system. He said that he'd show me the file in a while,
>> and then he left work for the weekend! (He'll claim on Monday that he
>> forgot.)
>>
>> Now what am I going to do with my weekend? Thanks to you I am now typing
>> this from a properly-behaved (for my purposes) keyboard.
>>
>> All I had to do was to change the line
>>
>> XKBOPTIONS=""
>>
>> to
>>
>> XKBOPTIONS="numpad:microsoft"
>>
>> in /etc/default/keyboard and then reboot.
>>
>> You're a living doll!
>
> Was just that!? He, he... great! :-)
>
> I'm afraid you will also have to thanks Google's smart algorithms. Heck,
> I made a simple search for "xmodmap+numpad:microsoft" (you were insisting
> in xmodmap so much...) and one of the results lead me to that setting
> but, to be sincere, I wasn't sure if that was going to work O:-)
Of course I was insisting on xmodmap. I don't usually do things the easy
way. Why would I try to find something as elegant and simple as your
solution when I could remap dozens of key combinations -- just to
accomplish one little thing. You coming up with the
XKBOPTIONS="numpad:microsoft" element has saved me a lot of trouble.
Again, my heartfelt thanks, and my admiration for all that you do here.
Best regards,
Gilbert
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