Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release

[Beco]

> ----
> To: debian-dev...@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release
> From: Cyril Brulebois <ki...@debian.org>
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:49:10 +0100
> Message-id: <20121122004...@mraw.org>
>
> The Debian Installer team[1] is pleased to announce the fourth beta release
> of the installer for Debian 7.0 "Wheezy".
>
>
> Highlights
> ==========
>
> * Many updates to the linux kernel.
> * Many improvements in the netcfg component.
>
> [cut]
> ----


Hey guys,

Any prediction or estimate when will Wheezy be finally stable?

I'm excited! Go Debian! :)

Cheers!
Beco




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[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 09:54:55PM -0300, Beco wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> Any prediction or estimate when will Wheezy be finally stable?
>
> I'm excited! Go Debian! :)

March next year? Conservative prediction. Could be sooner if families
come second over the xmas holidays. IOW, is there a rush?

--
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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[Jon Dowland]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 05:33:40PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> IOW, is there a rush?

Perhaps not a "rush" but I'd *really* like to have a predictable release
schedule.

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[Worrier Poet]

On 11/26/2012 11:52 AM, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 05:33:40PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
>> IOW, is there a rush?
>
> Perhaps not a "rush" but I'd *really* like to have a predictable release
> schedule.
>

To each his own. I like the releases to work reasonably well -- whenever
they come out. I appreciate that the Debian release teams have continued
to emphasize quality over release scheduling.

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[Brian]

On Mon 26 Nov 2012 at 16:52:19 +0000, Jon Dowland wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 05:33:40PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > IOW, is there a rush?
>
> Perhaps not a "rush" but I'd *really* like to have a predictable release
> schedule.

This is probably not as definite as everyone would like

http://people.debian.org/~kibi/talks/2012-11-25-Paris-mini-DebConf--re-discovering-the-Debian-Installer.pdf

but nothing is going to happen before there is a reliable Installer
finalised.

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[Russell L. Harris]

* Worrier Poet <Worrie...@comcast.net> [121126 17:24]:

>
> To each his own. I like the releases to work reasonably well -- whenever
> they come out. I appreciate that the Debian release teams have continued
> to emphasize quality over release scheduling.

The best solution for the "I must have the very latest, and I must have
it now" crowd is to switch over to Ubuntu. You can have it right, or
you can have it now, but seldom can you have it "right now".

After the novelty of Ubuntu wears off and it is time to get back to
productivity in the real world, nothing is more satisfying than the
reliable realm of Debian, in which things are done right as a matter
of policy.

For not a few users, a new release is an overhead expense which is
unwelcome, however necessary it may be. If security updates, etc.,
still were available to protect Etch from exploits, I likely still
would be running Etch.

RH

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[green]

Russell L. Harris wrote at 2012-11-26 14:19 -0600:
> The best solution for the "I must have the very latest, and I must have
> it now" crowd is to switch over to Ubuntu. You can have it right, or
> you can have it now, but seldom can you have it "right now".
>
> After the novelty of Ubuntu wears off and it is time to get back to
> productivity in the real world, nothing is more satisfying than the
> reliable realm of Debian, in which things are done right as a matter
> of policy.

Agreed! And if the time ever comes that "the right way" is not the Debian
way, then Debian is on its way out.

[Beco]

First thing, Russell, is that I agree with so many things you say.
Specially regarding the "reliable realm of Debian".

In any case, I didn't mean:

>> "I must have the very latest, and I must have
>> it now"

It's not helpful how often we get that: "Move to another distro".
Let's welcome more (I assume we do want more users on our base, don't
we? I know, better quality than quantity, but still better quality in
quantity). I don't think its incompatible with the Debian way to say
I'm excited to see a new version, as long as the new version is made
in the Debian way.

Lets do right, not "right now". I'm in no way "demanding" a new
release sooner. If the answer to my question of "estimate" is May, so
be it. Its an estimate, isn't it? Would it hurt Debian if we postpone
Wheezy to April or May? I don't think so. But to September 2014, I
think we might have a problem within the cycle.

I just want to go fast to Wheezy, because Wheezy is a penguin with a
red bow tie.

And, most important than all:
I won't move to (K)ubuntu because I already bought Debian aluminium
adhesive stickers to put on my notebook. So thanks for the suggestion,
but I didn't liked it.
:)


Cheers,
Beco.

--
Dr Beco
A.I. researcher

--> . <--

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

> Lets do right, not "right now". I'm in no way "demanding" a new
> release sooner. If the answer to my question of "estimate" is May, so
> be it. Its an estimate, isn't it? Would it hurt Debian if we postpone
> Wheezy to April or May? I don't think so. But to September 2014, I
> think we might have a problem within the cycle.

I think most open source projects which targets quality before cycling
have the same kind of problems, regarding the time.
The usual "when it will be ready" is here because it is hard to
determine when the needed quality will be reached.

Honestly, I understand nothing about how to estimate any date, so I can
understand that debian's dev can not give estimations on a project as
big as Debian.
But I agree, having some estimation is a nice feature, and maybe it can
help to see defects in project's management.

>
> I just want to go fast to Wheezy, because Wheezy is a penguin with a
> red bow tie.
>
> And, most important than all:
> I won't move to (K)ubuntu because I already bought Debian aluminium
> adhesive stickers to put on my notebook. So thanks for the
> suggestion,
> but I didn't liked it.
> :)

btw, I would like to know where you bought them, if it is not a joke.
And if it is a joke, I warn you: I think it is outrageous to make fun
about so useful stuff :D (ok, I'm out)

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[Beco]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:43 PM, <berenge...@neutralite.org> wrote:
>> And, most important than all:
>> I won't move to (K)ubuntu because I already bought Debian aluminium
>> adhesive stickers to put on my notebook. So thanks for the suggestion,
>> but I didn't liked it.
>> :)
>
>
> btw, I would like to know where you bought them, if it is not a joke.
> And if it is a joke, I warn you: I think it is outrageous to make fun about
> so useful stuff :D (ok, I'm out)
>

No joke! Here it is, from the confirmation email. I bought on e-bay.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Seller: cadmiumpctech
Seller URL: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1181/7?euid=19c4338923ff4c339ee0b328aeeeb80a&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmyworld.ebay.co.uk%2Fcadmiumpctech%3FssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1181
Feedback Score URL:
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1183/7?euid=19c4338923ff4c339ee0b328aeeeb80a&loc=http%3A%2F%2Ffeedback.ebay.co.uk%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewFeedback%26userid%3Dcadmiumpctech%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1183
Seller Information:
cadmium pc technology
alan stevens
272 Kings Rd
Tyseley
Birmingham, West Midlands B112AB UK
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Have a nice shop! It feels good to buy debian products. I feel useful! :D


Cheers,
Beco

PS. The link from the (now old) email looks broke. But the item is here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-Linux-Debian-Case-Badge-Sticker-/281029773571?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item416eae0903

--
Dr Beco
A.I. researcher

--> . <--

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everyone you love, everyone you know..." (Carl Sagan, 1934-1996)

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

> PS. The link from the (now old) email looks broke. But the item is
> here:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-Linux-Debian-Case-Badge-Sticker-/281029773571?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item416eae0903

Thanks a lot.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 23:28 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> I don't use any statement of faith, but If I ever should do, I would
> prefer something like:
>
> http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=shebang+t-shirt&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=38897761&biw=1152&bih=729&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=juuzUK-yHorRsga0k4DoBA
>
> I'm using what ever distro is the best for my needs and within the next
> minutes I'll reboot from Ubuntu (there are also other distros on my
> machine) to the FreeBSD installer. I don't know if I'll like it, it's
> even not a Linux distro, however, the shebang does cover the religion
> less dogmatic.

PS: But never wear such a shirt when you discuss systemd :p, then it
could be borderline.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

I don't use any statement of faith, but If I ever should do, I would
prefer something like:

http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=shebang+t-shirt&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=38897761&biw=1152&bih=729&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=juuzUK-yHorRsga0k4DoBA

I'm using what ever distro is the best for my needs and within the next
minutes I'll reboot from Ubuntu (there are also other distros on my
machine) to the FreeBSD installer. I don't know if I'll like it, it's
even not a Linux distro, however, the shebang does cover the religion
less dogmatic.

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[Zenaan Harkness]

On 11/27/12, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.m...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> machine) to the FreeBSD installer. I don't know if I'll like it, it's
> even not a Linux distro, however, the shebang does cover the religion
> less dogmatic.

Whoah! Careful there ... are you telling me I _should_ be less dogmatic?!!@#:)

I'm sure there's also some retort about a red-bowtied Penguin Daemon
religiously throwing an Apple through Windows making a loud noise
"#!#!" or something ... just can't think of it right now ...

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[Russell L. Harris]

* Beco <r...@beco.cc> [121126 21:36]:

> In any case, I didn't mean:
> >> "I must have the very latest, and I must have it now"

Forgive me for painting with too broad a brush. I did not mean to
target you specifically, or even to include you in the group to which
I referred.

> It's not helpful how often we get that: "Move to another distro".

I disagree somewhat. A single OS cannot fit the desires of every
user. I do not wish the desires of the many to result in a
transmogrification which no longer serves the needs of present Debian
users. There is a place for novelty and the Ubuntu way of doing
things, but that place is not Debian.

> Let's welcome more (I assume we do want more users on our base, don't
> we?

There needs to be a "critical mass"; but beyond that point, an
increase in numbers is not necessarily beneficial.

> If the answer to my question of "estimate" is May, so be it. Its an
> estimate, isn't it? Would it hurt Debian if we postpone Wheezy to
> April or May? I don't think so. But to September 2014, I think we
> might have a problem within the cycle.

If something is broken or something (such as network manager) is too
complex to be generally usable, then a speedy fix is needed. And
sometimes a fix entails extensive redesign; in that case, delay is
regrettable.

In this matter, I perhaps am a bit sensitive, because of my experience
with WordPress. I began blogging with WordPress 1.0. But before
long, the defining characteristic of WordPress became "a new release
every time the wind changes". And each new release demanded that
numerous customizations be re-done. At that point, WordPress had been
transformed from a productive tool into something of a religion which
demanded entirely too much time and effort of the end user. I wished
to spend my time in the writing of blogs, not in a never-ending cycle
of re-installation and customization of WordPress. So at that point I
went in search of another blogging engine. I do not wish to see
Debian follow that path.

> I just want to go fast to Wheezy, because Wheezy is a penguin with a
> red bow tie.

>From what I have heard, Wheezy ought to be a penguin with a millstone
tied about its neck.

I look forward to the release of Wheezy in the sense that that the
release frees the development team to work on a new version in which,
hopefully, many of the "look and feel" innovations of Wheezy are
relegated to the dumpster.

RH

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[Beco]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Russell L. Harris
<rlha...@broadcaster.org> wrote:
>
> Forgive me for painting with too broad a brush. I did not mean to
> target you specifically, or even to include you in the group to which
> I referred.

Fair enough.

>> It's not helpful how often we get that: "Move to another distro".
>
> I disagree somewhat. A single OS cannot fit the desires of every
> user. I do not wish the desires of the many to result in a
> transmogrification which no longer serves the needs of present Debian
> users. There is a place for novelty and the Ubuntu way of doing
> things, but that place is not Debian.

I see. Considering what you thought to be a rush, this makes sense.
But your premise were wrong.
I understand that this "recommendation" sometimes is the way to go.
But I still think we see that too much.
Anyway, I understand your point.

> There needs to be a "critical mass"; but beyond that point, an
> increase in numbers is not necessarily beneficial.

Critical mass is the minimum to set an event. Debian has passed that
long time ago.
I may be a dreamer, but I would love to see Debian take over the
world. But this is probably not a Debian way.
So you may say, if I want to see a distro take over, I might be better
moving to Ubuntu! Ahahaha! Just joking.

There is something I would like to talk: about standards. This would
be a bit off-topic, forgive-me.

When I decided to move "TO" Debian, one of my concerns was to be on a
distro that sets its way, not a distro that follows.
Debian moto is "The Universal Operating System". And that is the appeal to me.

I love standards. I would give my kingdom to have only ".deb" instead
of 3 or 4 (RPM, tar.gz, among others). Why? Because I think linux
would win a lot with standardization. But well, people from RPM would
not like it...

Other things also. CUPS, sound, and the more polemic: KDE!

I know this would never happens... But since it would never happens,
that's another motivation to be part of Debian, the greater
distribution. If we can't have 100% linux users, I can at least be
part of the distro I believe most to truly represent gnu/linux spirit.
And I can only hope people would join more.

>
>> If the answer to my question of "estimate" is May, so be it. Its an
>> estimate, isn't it? Would it hurt Debian if we postpone Wheezy to
>> April or May? I don't think so. But to September 2014, I think we
>> might have a problem within the cycle.
>
> If something is broken or something (such as network manager) is too
> complex to be generally usable, then a speedy fix is needed. And
> sometimes a fix entails extensive redesign; in that case, delay is
> regrettable.
>
> In this matter, I perhaps am a bit sensitive, because of my experience
> with WordPress. I began blogging with WordPress 1.0. But before
> long, the defining characteristic of WordPress became "a new release
> every time the wind changes". And each new release demanded that
> numerous customizations be re-done. At that point, WordPress had been
> transformed from a productive tool into something of a religion which
> demanded entirely too much time and effort of the end user. I wished
> to spend my time in the writing of blogs, not in a never-ending cycle
> of re-installation and customization of WordPress. So at that point I
> went in search of another blogging engine. I do not wish to see
> Debian follow that path.
>

I think we just agree here.

>
>
>> I just want to go fast to Wheezy, because Wheezy is a penguin with a
>> red bow tie.
>
> From what I have heard, Wheezy ought to be a penguin with a millstone
> tied about its neck.

;)

>
> I look forward to the release of Wheezy in the sense that that the
> release frees the development team to work on a new version in which,
> hopefully, many of the "look and feel" innovations of Wheezy are
> relegated to the dumpster.
>
> RH

My best!

Beco

--
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A.I. researcher

--> . <--

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everyone you love, everyone you know..." (Carl Sagan, 1934-1996)

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["Morel Bérenger"]

> When I decided to move "TO" Debian, one of my concerns was to be on a
> distro that sets its way, not a distro that follows. Debian moto is "The
> Universal Operating System". And that is the appeal to me.
>
>
> I love standards. I would give my kingdom to have only ".deb" instead
> of 3 or 4 (RPM, tar.gz, among others). Why? Because I think linux would win
> a lot with standardization. But well, people from RPM would not like it...

There is Linux Standard Base which claim to be a standard for distros.
They claim that rpm should be the standard, among other things.
I do not know the difference between rpm and deb, so maybe they could be
merged, but I disagree with you when things come to the .tar.gz : source
code distribution is far easier for software developers than dealing with
every distro packaging systems, which is really a pain in ...
Look, even a .deb is not usable on all debian-based distros! Take a
ubuntu's deb, try to install it on debian, you'll see.

In that sense, .tar.gz, source code, is the more portable way, and it
allows full customization, especially regarding dependencies. This last
reason is also the one which makes me thinking about moving to gentoo, but
I need time for that :D.
For example, I use no printers on my machines, but I have some cups
dependencies. I understand that debian try to meet everyone's needs, so I
usually do not whine about that.
I am still using debian because it is so easy to install/customize, fast,
and reliable.
A very, very good tool to learn (the last thing I need to achieve before
moving to gentoo is running a home-made kernel), and thanks to the
knowledge I have acquired, I have discovered my way and can think to walk
on it myself.
But it have limitations, due to the fact it is a good tool to learn: when
you want to learn, it is easier to start from an easy point, which hide
most of the complexities of your system. But at some point, this hiding
avoid some understandings.

> Other things also. CUPS, sound, and the more polemic: KDE!

KDE and Gnome did Freedesktop.org, which is not a real standard, and even
do not claim to be such, but is the way to go in my humble opinion.
An example of what I like they did is "~/.config/" which is far better
than the usual way to just put everything in hidden folders/files in
$HOME. Btw, I hate that crappy way!
Another are recommendations to make icons themes which have some defined
qualities and so avoid icon themes to lost the users. (tango is the proof
of concept of those recommendations).

So you can not really say that KDE is so polemic ;)
Honestly, I think that having only one DE would be an error, and a very
big one. Some are bloatwares, some are very lightweight, some are in the
middle (xfce) and people can even just install a window manager, with
tools installed and configured to fit together. That's good enough, and if
it make people coming to linux lost, well, that's normal.
Freedom is like moving outside a deep cave for the first time: you are
lost because you can not see walls, so you first take a random way.
Windows is the deep cave, free OS are the big plains.

I will try to not say more about KDE/Gnome, it could hurt sensibilities.
But although I do not like them, I have to admit that some people can like
them, and more important, that the fact that they exists and that there
are DE switchers, allowed FreeDesktop.Org to exist, and this one is a good
thing: you can write softwares which integrates well with most DEs even if
you do not use their numerous libraries.

I also love standards, but I see them as guidelines, and I do not want to
see everything standardized.
One of best standards I know is the C++ one: it is made to let developers
a big freedom. But the cost of that freedom is that we have to choose
non-standard tools when things come where standards are not. That's not so
bad, after all. Could you say what a GUI standard should be? I can not:
ncurses, gtk, Qt, wxWidgets, win32, mfc,...? There are too many, and how
to say one is totally wrong and another so nice that everyone should use
it?

> I know this would never happens... But since it would never happens,
> that's another motivation to be part of Debian, the greater distribution.
> If we can't have 100% linux users, I can at least be
> part of the distro I believe most to truly represent gnu/linux spirit. And
> I can only hope people would join more.

Debian != GNU/Linux.
Debian = GNU/Linux/FreeBSD ;)
Ok, I have not tried the last kernel one for now, but maybe one day I will.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 10:18 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> There is Linux Standard Base which claim to be a standard for distros.

Which reminds me of the file system hierarchy issue, on my multi-boot
I've got Linux were e.g. /media is

/media/directory
/media/username/directory
/run/media/username/directory

Also very nice is the output of

$ ls -l /bin/sh

for Ubuntu it's not bash.

Btw. the reason I don't like aliases is that somebody perhaps would have
written

$ ll /bin/sh

and somebody else might not have this alias.

> They claim that rpm should be the standard, among other things.
> I do not know the difference between rpm and deb, so maybe they could be
> merged

We've got "alien" to convert, but this easily can fail. Instead of disto
specific ways to build a package often "checkinstall" (instead of "make
install") can build a package for RPM and DEB based distros.

> is far easier for software developers than dealing with
> every distro packaging systems

Have you ever tried checkinstall?

> This last reason is also the one which makes me thinking about moving to gentoo

I like Arch Linux's "pacman" the best. Building packages for Arch is
idiot prove.

For Debian among other ways it's possible to build a new package by
using older package information, e.g.

# apt-get source alsa-lib
# apt-get build-dep alsa-lib
# mv -vi alsa-lib-1.0.23/ alsa-lib-1.0.24.1
# wget ftp://ftp.alsa-project.org/pub/lib/alsa-lib-1.0.24.1.tar.bz2
# tar xvjf alsa-lib-1.0.24.1.tar.bz2
# cd alsa-lib-1.0.24.1
# gedit debian/changelog
1st line was: alsa-lib (1.0.23-4) unstable; urgency=low
edited to: alsa-lib (1.0.24.1) unstable; urgency=low
# gedit debian/rules
Removed:
biarch_map := i386=amd64 powerpc=ppc64 sparc=sparc64 s390=s390x
\
amd64=i386 ppc64=powerpc
biarch_cpu := $(strip $(patsubst $(DEB_BUILD_ARCH_CPU)=%, %, \
$(filter $(DEB_BUILD_ARCH_CPU)=%, $(biarch_map))))
# libtoolize --force --copy --automake
# aclocal
# autoreconf
# debuild -b -us -uc

> For example, I use no printers on my machines, but I have some cups
> dependencies. I understand that debian try to meet everyone's needs, so I
> usually do not whine about that.

That upstream does force a desktop environment to hard depend to e.g.
systemd is insane and we get more and more of those insane dependencies.

> gentoo is running a home-made kernel

I'm doing this by scripts, for Debian and Ubuntu I "dirty" rewrite this
script:

#!/bin/sh
# sh build-kernel
TODAY=2012-Nov-02

#apt-get update
#apt-get install fakeroot build-essential crash kexec-tools makedumpfile
kernel-package kernel-wedge
#apt-get install libncurses5 libncurses5-dev libelf-dev asciidoc
binutils-dev

GENERIC=3.5.0-17-lowlatency
ARCH=x86_64
export CONCURRENCY_LEVEL=2

# Kernel to build is version
KMAJOR=3.6
KMINOR=.5
KMICRO=-rt14
KERNEL_UNAME=${KMAJOR}${KMINOR}${KMICRO}

# Directory where the source codes should be saved
SRC_DIR=/usr/src

clear
if [ $USER = "root" ] ; then
if [ $(uname -m) != ${ARCH} ] ; then
echo "#######################################"
echo "You're running the wrong architecture"
echo "Continuing anyway"
echo "#######################################"
fi
if [ $(uname -r) != ${GENERIC} ] ; then
echo "#######################################"
echo "You're running the wrong kernel"
echo "Continuing anyway"
echo "#######################################"
fi

# Backup configuration, delete sources and packages in SRC_DIR
cd $SRC_DIR
cp linux-${KERNEL_UNAME}/.config config-${KERNEL_UNAME}_$(date +"%b-%
d-%Y_%H-%M-%S")
rm -r linux-${KERNEL_UNAME}
rm linux-headers-${KERNEL_UNAME}_${KERNEL_UNAME}-10.00.Custom_*.deb
rm linux-image-${KERNEL_UNAME}_${KERNEL_UNAME}-10.00.Custom_*.deb
rm linux-${KMAJOR}${KMINOR}.tar.bz2 patch-${KERNEL_UNAME}.patch.bz2

# Download all sources to source directory
wget http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v3.x/linux-3.6.5.tar.bz2
wget
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/3.6/patch-3.6.5-rt14.patch.bz2

# Extracting and patching
tar -jxf linux-${KMAJOR}${KMINOR}.tar.bz2
mv linux-${KMAJOR}${KMINOR} linux-${KERNEL_UNAME}
cd linux-${KERNEL_UNAME}
bzip2 -dc ../patch-${KERNEL_UNAME}.patch.bz2 | patch -p1
rm ../linux-${KMAJOR}${KMINOR}.tar.bz2
rm ../patch-${KERNEL_UNAME}.patch.bz2

# Configuration
cp /boot/config-$(uname -r) .config
# Optimize to CPU
# e.g. set to CONFIG_MK8=y (Opteron/Athlon64/Hammer/K8), command out
for default
echo "CONFIG_MK8=y" >> .config

# 32-bit only
# HIGHMEM from 4G to 64G
# echo "CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G is not set" >> .config
# echo "CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G=y" >> .config

# [...]
SECONDS=0
make oldconfig
sec_oldconfig=$SECONDS
SECONDS=0

# Building the kernel
make-kpkg clean
make-kpkg --rootcmd fakeroot --initrd kernel-image kernel-headers

# Installing new packages
make-kpkg clean
dpkg -i ../linux-image-${KERNEL_UNAME}_
${KERNEL_UNAME}-10.00.Custom_*.deb
dpkg -i ../linux-headers-${KERNEL_UNAME}_
${KERNEL_UNAME}-10.00.Custom_*.deb
echo "-------------------------------"
echo "Config : $sec_oldconfig sec"
echo "Build and install: $SECONDS sec"
else
echo "Run as \"root\""
fi
exit 0

However, for other distros this won't work ;), but as you can see, you
don't need knowledge to build a kernel and it's easy to remove the dirty
arts from this script.

> > Other things also. CUPS, sound, and the more polemic: KDE!
> KDE and Gnome did Freedesktop.org, which is not a real standard, and even
> do not claim to be such, but is the way to go in my humble opinion.
> An example of what I like they did is "~/.config/" which is far better
> than the usual way to just put everything in hidden folders/files in
> $HOME. Btw, I hate that crappy way!

And I like the hidden files, but hate not to know what exactly is
"active" in .config, .local etc. or .cache.

If I edit a config I don't want that it's ignored, but used from the
cache instead.

> So you can not really say that KDE is so polemic ;)

KDE and GNOME are bloated.

> Honestly, I think that having only one DE would be an error, and a very
> big one. Some are bloatwares, some are very lightweight, some are in the
> middle (xfce) and people can even just install a window manager, with
> tools installed and configured to fit together. That's good enough, and if
> it make people coming to linux lost, well, that's normal.

Don't forget that you even do not need to use a DE with X. You can
simply use a WM. Some of them, e.g. Ion are tiling and tabbing window
managers.

I don't want to be forced to use Unity or GNOME or something like that,
my PC isn't a tablet PC.

> Windows is the deep cave, free OS are the big plains.

Could we stop writing about other OS. I don't like Microsoft, I don't
use Windows, but I'm tired to read this nonsense again and again. Yes
Windows isn't a good system, but it's not that bad as many people claim.
Just repeating things parrot-fashion is idiotic. Most things Linux
people write about Windows is simply not true.

Oh and btw. more idiotic than writing about Windows without knowledge,
is to compare Linux distributions.

They all have advantages and drawbacks.

2 Cents,
Ralf

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[Jon Dowland]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 08:19:01PM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> The best solution for the "I must have the very latest, and I must have
> it now" crowd is to switch over to Ubuntu. You can have it right, or
> you can have it now, but seldom can you have it "right now".

"I must have the very latest…" and predictable release times are not
the same thing.

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["Morel Bérenger"]

>> There is Linux Standard Base which claim to be a standard for distros.
> Which reminds me of the file system hierarchy issue, on my multi-boot
> I've got Linux were e.g. /media is
>
> /media/directory
> /media/username/directory
> /run/media/username/directory

I can not really see the point of having such various schemes...

> for Ubuntu it's not bash.

People can use other things than bash, I do not see the problem. And I
think that someday I'll try zsh or csh. When I'll have the time :D

>> They claim that rpm should be the standard, among other things.
>> I do not know the difference between rpm and deb, so maybe they could be
>> merged
>
> We've got "alien" to convert, but this easily can fail. Instead of disto
> specific ways to build a package often "checkinstall" (instead of "make
> install") can build a package for RPM and DEB based distros.

About alien... well, when even .deb are not compatible between themselves,
how the hell do you want to have a secure way to port .rpm on .deb based
distro?
To do the packaging stuff from source, there is also cmake, if
dependencies for the target distro are registered. My personal choice at
home, just, I'm sad to see it depends on emacsen.

>> is far easier for software developers than dealing with every distro
>> packaging systems
>
> Have you ever tried checkinstall?

No, I do not even know what is it. I'll take a look at it.

>> This last reason is also the one which makes me thinking about moving
>> to gentoo
>
> I like Arch Linux's "pacman" the best. Building packages for Arch is
> idiot prove.
>
> For Debian among other ways it's possible to build a new package by
> using older package information, e.g.

The problem is to create the older package informations, and that, for
each distro.

>> For example, I use no printers on my machines, but I have some cups
>> dependencies. I understand that debian try to meet everyone's needs, so
>> I
>> usually do not whine about that.
>
> That upstream does force a desktop environment to hard depend to e.g.
> systemd is insane and we get more and more of those insane dependencies.

I am fairly new to Debian so I do not know what will happen, but the more
useless dependencies I will have to install to make my system running, the
more chance there is that I will go on another distro quickly.

>> gentoo is running a home-made kernel
>
> I'm doing this by scripts, for Debian and Ubuntu I "dirty" rewrite this
> script:

> [...]

> However, for other distros this won't work ;), but as you can see, you
> don't need knowledge to build a kernel and it's easy to remove the dirty
> arts from this script.

The knowledge I need to build the kernel, is about modules I need or not ;)
If I had this knowledge, just using "$make menuconfig" (or any other
choice) would be very fine.
But thanks for the script, I'll look at it later.

>> KDE and Gnome did Freedesktop.org, which is not a real standard, and
>> even do not claim to be such, but is the way to go in my humble opinion.
>> An example of what I like they did is "~/.config/" which is far better
>> than the usual way to just put everything in hidden folders/files in
>> $HOME. Btw, I hate that crappy way!
>>
>
> And I like the hidden files, but hate not to know what exactly is
> "active" in .config, .local etc. or .cache.
>
>
> If I edit a config I don't want that it's ignored, but used from the
> cache instead.

I do not understand what you mean by "disabled" ? And how the location of
a file can avoid it to be in the cache?
If softwares put things in .cache, it is not necessarily configuration
options. Such "feature" would be, imho, a stupid choice (and I have not
seen it for now)

But I think the better is to let the user the choice of where the config
should go, the freedesktop.org recommendations are to read a system
variable to determine that, and it is also possible to first check
~/.my_soft and if it does not exists, check in ~/.config/my_soft. (This is
what I do with my current project)

>> So you can not really say that KDE is so polemic ;)
> KDE and GNOME are bloated.

I guess some people think that they are useful as they are. I disagree
with them, but I do not think my opinion is the only one which should rule
the world :D

>> and people can even just install a window manager,

> You can simply use a WM. Some of them, e.g. Ion are tiling and tabbing
window managers.

As I said ;) (my personal choice is for i3-wm)

> Yes Windows isn't a good system, but it's not that bad as many people
claim.

I would not say that. For many people it is easier to use and so good enough.
I guess my words were not clear enough. What I meant was: on some other
system, you can not change every component. On debian, you are close to be
able to do so.
I apologize for the bad wording.

> They all have advantages and drawbacks.

Agree. Just like all OSes.

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:30:20AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Also very nice is the output of
>
> $ ls -l /bin/sh
>
> for Ubuntu it's not bash.

For modern Debian installations it's not bash either. Switching /bin/sh
to dash by default was done principally to make boot times quicker (dash
is smaller and faster to load than bash).

Are you actually running Debian, at the moment? I've seen a few statements
about you running Ubuntu, or Arch, or similar, and I often wonder why you are
posting to debian-user in that case… of course you may be using more than one,
in different places. Just curious.

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:39:54AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > Let's welcome more (I assume we do want more users on our base, don't
> > we?
>
> There needs to be a "critical mass"; but beyond that point, an
> increase in numbers is not necessarily beneficial.

Agreed for 'mere' users, but another factor is how many users become
useful contributors. A "conversion rate", if you will. And you can
compensate for a poor conversion rate, to a certain extent, by having
more users. I think we have a poor conversion rate in Debian, and not
enough contributors.

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:53:30PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> People can use other things than bash, I do not see the problem. And I
> think that someday I'll try zsh or csh. When I'll have the time :D

You should go really left-field and try rc! (but not for /bin/sh.)

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 12:02 +0000, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:30:20AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > Also very nice is the output of
> >
> > $ ls -l /bin/sh
> >
> > for Ubuntu it's not bash.
>
> For modern Debian installations it's not bash either. Switching /bin/sh
> to dash by default was done principally to make boot times quicker (dash
> is smaller and faster to load than bash).

Does it really carry weight?

> Are you actually running Debian, at the moment? I've seen a few statements
> about you running Ubuntu, or Arch, or similar, and I often wonder why you are
> posting to debian-user in that case… of course you may be using more than one,
> in different places. Just curious.

I'm using the install that does work the best, this could change just by
one update. At the moment none of my Linux does fit to my needs. There's
no clean Debian, but AVlinux 5.0.3 on my machine
$ cat /media/spinymouse/avlinux/etc/issue
Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 \n \l
and it's really close to a clean Debian install.

Regards,
Ralf

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["Morel Bérenger"]

Le Mar 27 novembre 2012 14:29, Ralf Mardorf a écrit :
> On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 12:02 +0000, Jon Dowland wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:30:20AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>
>>> Also very nice is the output of
>>>
>>>
>>> $ ls -l /bin/sh
>>>
>>>
>>> for Ubuntu it's not bash.
>>
>> For modern Debian installations it's not bash either. Switching /bin/sh
>> to dash by default was done principally to make boot times quicker
>> (dash
>> is smaller and faster to load than bash).
>
> Does it really carry weight?

http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/dash
248k
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/bash
3536k
Without dependencies, of course :)

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 02:29:15PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Does it really carry weight?

With sysvinit, which spawns a lot of sh instances, yes. With something like
systemd, no - it tries to solve the same problem in part by not spawning a
shell lots of times.

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[Beco]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:39:54AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> > Let's welcome more (I assume we do want more users on our base, don't
>> > we?
>>
>> There needs to be a "critical mass"; but beyond that point, an
>> increase in numbers is not necessarily beneficial.
>
> Agreed for 'mere' users, but another factor is how many users become
> useful contributors. A "conversion rate", if you will. And you can
> compensate for a poor conversion rate, to a certain extent, by having
> more users. I think we have a poor conversion rate in Debian, and not
> enough contributors.
>

We would have more contributors if Debian wasn't so proud of being for
advanced users.

Ubuntu has probably the same "complexity" for a developer, but as they
are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors.

We need to change the view that Debian is just for servers and gurus.
That way, we would have a better, as you say, "conversion rate",
without the need of more users. To have more contributors, I think its
easier to improve the conversion rate than to find more users.

Cheers,
Beco

--
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A.I. researcher

--> . <--

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everyone you love, everyone you know..." (Carl Sagan, 1934-1996)

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[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 27 November 2012 12:02:34 Jon Dowland wrote:
> For modern Debian installations it's not bash either. Switching /bin/sh
> to dash by default was done principally to make boot times quicker (dash
> is smaller and faster to load than bash).

Thanks for the information, Jon. I hadn't realised that! I've merrily
carried on using "bash". :-/

Lisi

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[Beco]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:53:30PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>> People can use other things than bash, I do not see the problem. And I
>> think that someday I'll try zsh or csh. When I'll have the time :D
>
> You should go really left-field and try rc! (but not for /bin/sh.)
>

Never heard of it. What is "rc"?

--
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A.I. researcher

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[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 26 November 2012 16:52:19 Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 05:33:40PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > IOW, is there a rush?
>
> Perhaps not a "rush" but I'd *really* like to have a predictable release
> schedule.

And I'd *really* like to continue having stable software, and no release till
it's ready.

One of the many things that I dislike about Ubuntu, is its habit of releasing
on time, and then ironing the bugs out afterwards.

So they can't please everyone.

You can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Lisi

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[Kushal Kumaran]

Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday 27 November 2012 12:02:34 Jon Dowland wrote:
>> For modern Debian installations it's not bash either. Switching /bin/sh
>> to dash by default was done principally to make boot times quicker (dash
>> is smaller and faster to load than bash).
>
> Thanks for the information, Jon. I hadn't realised that! I've merrily
> carried on using "bash". :-/
>

One of the reasons dash is smaller is that it simply has fewer features
than bash. I didn't bother to lookup the difference, but IIRC dash aims
for strict POSIX compliance and not much else. If you like the extra
features you get with bash as your login shell, go ahead and continue
using it.

It does not really matter what you use for your personal scripts and as
your login shell. If hundreds of scripts are being run at boot time, it
makes a difference that dash is quicker to start.

--
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kushal

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 12:13 -0300, Beco wrote:
> Ubuntu has probably the same "complexity" for a developer, but as they
> are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors.

Ubuntu is tricky for newbies, it does fake to be similar to an iPad or
Windows. And there's bizarre cooperation, such as a browser link in the
applications menu to Amazon.

For a developer Ubuntu is quasi equal to Debian, excepted of other
software versions and upstart, but for the novice it could become very
unpleasant.

An advantage are releases such as Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio.

I don't like claims as "IMO distro A is better than distro B,
because ...", for me it's "Distro X at the moment is more pleasant for
my needs, than distro Y, because ...", if I would like to become
dogmatic, I would join a religion.

Regarding to developers, it also is important what kind of developer.
Some need to keep track with current upstream, or they are the people
from upstream, others are independent from this.

"Y is more stable, than Z ..." for what usage, under what circumstances?

And we've got at least two kind of users. For some users the computer is
a hobby and they like flashy changes, tons of features. A good example
is GIMP, since for others, e.g. design is the profession. If the
workflow gets broken, this is a serious issue. E.g. a flashy transparent
window does cover the picture, if you add a text, options are in
different places, values have to be changed in a different ways etc..

What is good for user 1 isn't good for user 2 and the reason that
professionals prefer Microsoft and Apple has good reasons. In Germany
many cities switched from Windows to Linux for office work, they all
switched back to Windows. If there's no backwards compatibility for the
data it's not for professional usage. If the workflow does change to
often and in a too absurd way, it's not professional. If vendors of
hardware are willing to share information, but there's not the manpower
by the Linux community to write the drivers, it's not for professional
usage.

Half of the list now will reply, yes, but Linux is better than Windows,
because ...

I'm not from Microsoft, I'm a Linux only user, it's not the point what's
better and what's less good. Usage and ethics are important. Choose your
OS carefully and if you chose Linux, take care what's best for you as a
tool. If you want to be cool, get some cool sun glasses and a funky
tattoo, for dogmatism there are many nice religions. A computer is a
tool and/or a toy. You'll use a different knife on the high mountain
tour, than for the Christmas dinner in the restaurant.

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[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 27 November 2012 15:13:19 Beco wrote:
> We would have more contributors if Debian wasn't so proud of being for
> advanced users.

But my experience is that it isn't. People are encouraged to help with
developing and all the other jobs that are needed. and can get a mentor to
help.

Can you adduce some evidence/statistics to support your thesis that Ubuntu has
a better conversion rate than Debian?

Remember that Ubuntu has quite few paid developers who do it as their
full-time paid job. Debian relies on volunteers, who mainly also need a "day
job" if they want to eat.

Lisi

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[Ralf Mardorf]

Don't Believe the Hype!

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 03:11:54PM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> Thanks for the information, Jon. I hadn't realised that! I've merrily
> carried on using "bash". :-/

Bash is a lot friendlier and better suited as a login or interactive
shell. The startup time is not so important for that situation.

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:17:50PM -0300, Beco wrote:
> Never heard of it. What is "rc"?

A shell. It's packaged in Debian, oddly enough in package 'rc'.
May I suggest you try "apt-cache show rc", or google?

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 03:24:07PM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> And I'd *really* like to continue having stable software, and no release till
> it's ready.

I don't think those two things are incompatible with each other.

> One of the many things that I dislike about Ubuntu, is its habit of releasing
> on time, and then ironing the bugs out afterwards.

Yes. That's not what I want.

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[Kelly Clowers]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Beco <r...@beco.cc> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:53:30PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>>> People can use other things than bash, I do not see the problem. And I
>>> think that someday I'll try zsh or csh. When I'll have the time :D
>>
>> You should go really left-field and try rc! (but not for /bin/sh.)
>>
>
>
> Never heard of it. What is "rc"?
>

I do believe it is the shell from Plan 9

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers

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[Beco]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:17:50PM -0300, Beco wrote:
>> Never heard of it. What is "rc"?
>
> A shell. It's packaged in Debian, oddly enough in package 'rc'.
> May I suggest you try "apt-cache show rc", or google?
>

Thanks!

I tried google, but without more keywords, "rc" was too little to search.

apt-cache is great:

"Description-en: implementation of the AT&T Plan 9 shell
rc is a command interpreter and programming language similar to sh(1). It is
based on the AT&T Plan 9 shell of the same name. The shell offers a C-like
syntax (much more so than the C shell), and a powerful mechanism for
manipulating variables. It is reasonably small and reasonably fast, especially
when compared to contemporary shells. Its use is intended to be interactive,
but the language lends itself well to scripts."


Cheers,
Beco

--
Dr Beco
A.I. researcher

--> . <--

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it
everyone you love, everyone you know..." (Carl Sagan, 1934-1996)

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

>
> I tried google, but without more keywords, "rc" was too little to
> search.

When I search for a package's description, I first use debian's
informations. With apt-cache if I am running my debian, or with
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=foobar if I am not using it.
The 2nd is really nice to know if a package is available in other
"versions" of debian ;)

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[Jon Dowland]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 03:43:00PM -0300, Beco wrote:
> I tried google, but without more keywords, "rc" was too little to search.

Good point, sorry.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 22:37 +0100, berenge...@neutralite.org wrote:
> >
> > I tried google, but without more keywords, "rc" was too little to
> > search.
>
> When I search for a package's description, I first use debian's
> informations. With apt-cache if I am running my debian, or with
> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=foobar if I am not using it.
> The 2nd is really nice to know if a package is available in other
> "versions" of debian ;)

That's useful regarding to Debian packages, however, searching the web
for information, the first search engine I would use is Google.

Even if I would search information about the character "a", I would
search for "letter a" and similar and not for "a", maybe "letter a
sesame street".

Searching for "rc" is naive ;), I would start with "rc shell", in this
case it's ok, if it wouldn't be ok I would continue with "shell rc", "rc
shell linux" etc., unexperienced users might search for "rc linux", this
would be understandable, but searching for "rc" unlikely will lead to
something useful.

*chuckle*

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[Slavko]

Hi,

Dňa Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:13:19 -0300 Beco <r...@beco.cc> napísal:

> Ubuntu has probably the same "complexity" for a developer, but as they
> are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors.

Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done
only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu & Debian developer -
sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do...

regards

--
Slavko
http://slavino.sk

[Jon Dowland]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote:
> Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done
> only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu & Debian developer -
> sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do...

That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in
those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which
do not exist in Debian.

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[Miles Fidelman]

Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote:
>> Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done
>> only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu & Debian developer -
>> sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do...
> That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in
> those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which
> do not exist in Debian.

That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging, not
development.

Ubuntu is based on Debian and uses the same packaging format. So what
"big changes" might we be talking about that are distro-specific? Major
changes are generally applied upstream, and then packages are update.
(Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are
distribution-specific.)

What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of:

a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and
don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or nobody
has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this doesn't
matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just fine under
Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just fine under Debian
(haven't tried this, though).

b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be "tweaked" to
accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments.

Personally, I find that all the common packages are available for both
environments, and the less common packages are so out-of-date that I end
up building them from upstream, and using alien or checkinstall so I can
keep track of them with apt. For the purposes of this discussion,
what really seems to matter is whether or not the upstream developers
have provided configure and make files that work under both Debian and
Ubuntu - the size of respective user bases might influence whether the
developers actually test under one distro or another.

Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play
is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of Debian and
Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers
and package repositories).

Miles Fidelman


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In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

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["Morel Bérenger"]

> That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging, not
> development.

Packaging will differ if the maintainer thinks that an optional dep is
better than another, or the option is useless etc...
So, I think packagers must have some knowledge about the software they
maintain.
But I might be wrong.

> (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are
> distribution-specific.)

Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro specific
patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did not
checked.)

> (haven't tried this, though).

I think you should.
The only time I tried, it was for a package maintained by their developers
named openmw. Trying installing it was not possible because of a version
difference o libc6 IIRC.
I tried to "force" the installation, to do it by hand, and the software
just crashed.

My opinion about that is that distros integrate patches on their
softwares, for some things, and those patches makes things not working
from a distro to another, even it the other is the ancestor.
But I only tried with one package, so maybe other works nicely.


I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it was,
all developers would provide packages automagically generated for all
distros, and this would not require maintainers.
But strangely, that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple...

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[Miles Fidelman]

"Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>> (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are
>> distribution-specific.)
> Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro specific
> patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did not
> checked.)

Well, that's why I included this:

> | Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into
> play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of
> | Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros
> (e.g., their installers and package repositories).

> I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it
> was, all developers would provide packages automagically generated for
> all distros, and this would not require maintainers. But strangely,
> that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple...

Well... I usually find that ./configure; make; make install works
automagically on most distributions - usually more reliably than
packaged versions of more obscure code.

Miles

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In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

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[Tom Furie]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:37:09PM +0100, berenge...@neutralite.org wrote:

> informations. With apt-cache if I am running my debian, or with
> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=foobar if I am not using

A shortcut for this is http://packages.debian.org/<packagename>

Cheers,
Tom

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-- Frederick Brooks, "The Mythical Man Month"

[Slavko]

Hi,

Dňa Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:00:07 -0500 Miles Fidelman
<mfid...@meetinghouse.net> napísal:

> What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of:
>
> a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and
> don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or
> nobody has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this
> doesn't matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just
> fine under Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just fine
> under Debian (haven't tried this, though).
>
> b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be "tweaked" to
> accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian
> environments.
>

c. Changes in packages to accommodate more user friendly environment
(proprietary drivers installations, etc)

But, perhaps it is in b. item already...

[Jon Dowland]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:00:07AM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Jon Dowland wrote:
> >On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote:
> >>Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done
> >>only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu & Debian developer -
> >>sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do...
> >That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in
> >those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which
> >do not exist in Debian.
>
> That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging,
> not development.

How do you draw a distinction? Lots of software in Debian and Ubuntu
carry lots and lots of patches on top of the code supplied by upstream.

Slavko's argument was that Ubuntu rides on the coattails of Debian,
but the cited statistic did not include enough information to draw
that conclusion.

> (Personally, I'm suspicious of software
> and changes that are distribution-specific.)

It's considered a good rule of thumb to deviate as little as possible and
submit deviations to upstream for inclusion where possible. But it's not
always possible.

> What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of:
>
> a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and
> don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or
> nobody has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this
> doesn't matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just
> fine under Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just
> fine under Debian (haven't tried this, though).

Slavko phrased it as 'Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched', which
does not imply that packages only existing in Ubuntu and not Debian are
considered in that 7%.

> b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be "tweaked" to
> accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian
> environments.

So 7% of packages are tweaked, but that says nothing about how big
the tweaks are, which was my point.

> Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into
> play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of
> Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g.,
> their installers and package repositories).

One of the most important contributions one can make to Debian is to
find, diagnose, test and fix bugs. They can exist in any package in
the repository, not just those that are OS-specific, or particularly
heavily customized in each OS - and how well that process works is
directly impacted by the number of users.

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

Le 28.11.2012 20:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit :
> "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>>> (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are
>>> distribution-specific.)
>> Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro
>> specific
>> patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did
>> not
>> checked.)
>
> Well, that's why I included this:
>> | Now where the number of users/contributors might really come
>> into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of
>> | Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g.,
>> their installers and package repositories).
>
>> I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it
>> was, all developers would provide packages automagically generated for
>> all distros, and this >> would not require maintainers. But strangely,
>> that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple...
> Well... I usually find that ./configure; make; make install works
> automagically on most distributions - usually more reliably than
> packaged versions of more obscure code.

I will only speak about things I have seen, as a developer which only
contributes to (some very rare) free softwares in his spare time (I
would be happy to do so in professional time, trust me :) ). I did only
tried Debian (and 10s of Ubuntu, ages ago, plus a try to install fedora
recently, stopped at the first question I was not able to translate in
terms I know. And windows, of course, for my job.) and did not tried
many build systems: Visual Studio, Code::Blocks, qtcreator, eclipse and
CMake. (yes, IDEs are included, because they integrate build systems)
I can also only speak about C and C++ build systems, because when
something works for C, it _often_ works for C++, which is currently the
language I am using in my spare time. (just love it)
I am not a script writer, too. They use different ways to think as my
favorite language (type safety is just one example). And finally, I have
uses vim (for small projects of 2-3 implementation files), but I never
tried emacs. And I do not intend to, for some reasons (I use vim because
it is a convenient tool, but not perfect, because hard to configure.
emacs with a programming language that I do not master can only be
worse, and I do not want to copy/paste. Those are some reasons. Not
all.).

You said that "$./configure; make; sudo make install" works easily.
You are right, every time I wanted to run them, things worked not so
bad.

But... are they built automagically by a *SIMPLE* tool?
If yes, I did not found it.
Oh, and, by simple, I mean an easy to use and configure tool, of
course. Not simple in the "do only one thing" way (yes, sysvinit -this
is an example, please do not troll- is simpler that other main
processes, but what about the easiness of configuration for someone who
discover the system? Personally, I am unable to understand the boot
procedure on my linux OS, and am not ashamed by that... Thousands of
lines to read in hundreds script cryptic files... no reason to be
ashamed of being unable to understand them...)
One which does not require the user to learn yet another black magic
programming language... Haskel, lisp, make, shell, powershell, perl, C#,
python, sql, brainfuck, prolog, asm, C, C++, B, D, JAVA, objC, vb,
pascal.... I do not care which one, if I have to learn a language, then
it is not simple. Do not troll about the better languages here, I do not
mind that someone think one is better than others. (the next on my list
of 'to-learn&use' is already in the list and I think no one will guess
which one it is :P)

When I tried to look inside those scripts (configure and makefiles), I
discovered... obscure text. Very obscure text. Insanely obscure text!
Honestly, it is far easier to build your binary with your IDE or a
shell script with hard-coded distro-dependent commands, create a "folder
tree" representing the system, move (with a script) the files you have
generated in the right destination, and write the small description file
needed by dpkg to generate a .deb than creating a tool to allow people
to dynamically build your software from a random environment, which have
to be able to say they which dependencies are not right (it have because
else, people will not even try to compile, even if you provide and IDE
project file which can do the job. Linux users are so dogmatic... did
someone noticed that often, there are a configure AND a visual studio
project supported?)
All of that can be made by a simple script written once and put in the
"after-build" steps of your favorite IDE.

Problems in this simple procedure are things are machine and/or distro
dependent:
_ the "folder tree" will change depending the POSIX OS you will use.
Not to speak about non-POSIX OS, which are the most commonly installed
nowadays.
_ description file will change depending on the distro you are using
_ of course, ABI will break very often
_ there is also the hash (md5 of sha***, nevermind) which will change
depending on libraries (this is related to broken ABI)
_ There are also naming problems of libraries (a debian example: take
"libboost.-dev* and it's "libboost.*" counterparts, and note that
binaries have everytime the number version in the name... This have
probably a good reason.)

As you can see, those differences are not trivials to manage. And only
ABI issues can really be handled by the build system, but this one,
excepted in source distros (gentoo, sourcemage...) , is not able to
download and install dependencies.
If a software had to use /srv/foobar in his "configure", how could you
be sure that things are ok on RHEL? The distro constellation is a real
problem, and I do not think all distros will finally decide to produce
an installation standard with binary compatibility. And while such a
standard does not exists, non closed operating systems will keep their
"hard-to-install" reputation.
Because for most users, an "#apt-get install mysoft" or "$wget
www.fooware.org/mysoft;./configure;make;sudo make install" is hard to
do. It can be true or not, they think, so it is. (and so it is hard to
install malwares, too ;) )

Except if you know the panacea for all those problems, I do not think
you should say such kinds of things are easy. And there are probably
tons of problems I am not currently aware of, since I have not dived
into binary distribution yet. And maybe I will never do, letting users
taking care of contributing build and package systems. Ok, softwares
will not be used by everyone... but is it always the goal of developers?
(Yes, I know, I'm so selfish to share source code without generic way to
compile/install...)

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[Slavko]

Hi,

Dňa Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:35:07 +0000 Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org>
napísal:

> Slavko phrased it as 'Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched', which
> does not imply that packages only existing in Ubuntu and not Debian
> are considered in that 7%.

I want no flame, i want point that compare the Ubuntu and Debian (in
mean of contribution and packaging) has different base only.

> > b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be "tweaked" to
> > accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian
> > environments.
>
> So 7% of packages are tweaked, but that says nothing about how big
> the tweaks are, which was my point.

I did search and i found the source, here it is:
http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/

The numbers are 2 years old, and can be different now. But, IMO, the
exact numbers are not fundamental here.

> > Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into
> > play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of
> > Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g.,
> > their installers and package repositories).
>
> One of the most important contributions one can make to Debian is to
> find, diagnose, test and fix bugs. They can exist in any package in
> the repository, not just those that are OS-specific, or particularly
> heavily customized in each OS - and how well that process works is
> directly impacted by the number of users.

You are right, of course, bug hunting is simplest contribution. A lot
of people think, that for contribution they must know C, C++ or similar.
But testing & bugreporting can be done by anyone (only English is
needed). But, it can be sometime terrible. I have one package in mind -
the lightdm and its autologin feature - communication with maintainer
was terrible and caused, that i will don't fill bug for this package in
future.

There are other ways to contribute too - the translation, for example,
webpage, package's descriptions, documentation, etc. I mean
translation of the Debian's specific things.

And finally, there is this user mail list, where can be contribution
done too - by helping to others :-)

This last point of contribution is essential in Ubuntu/Debian
comparing. The Ubuntu users seems to be more visible by amount of their
forums, mail lists, articles, etc. The Ubuntu's howtos and articles
helps are mostly useful for Debian too. But i latest time i read
something about commercialization of the Ubuntu (if i proper remmeber,
Cannonical tell something about new OS, but Linux based), i am not sure
how this Ubuntu's users contribution will be in future and who will be
profit from it.

[Miles Fidelman]

Slavko wrote:
>
> I did search and i found the source, here it is:
> http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/

Thanks for the pointer, I just went and read it.

It's a pretty good and informative read. So are the comments. Still
timely and worth reading.

Miles

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In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

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[Ralf Mardorf]

I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this:

Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu
there still would be a successful Debian.

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[Zenaan Harkness]

On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.m...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this:
>
> Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu
> there still would be a successful Debian.

This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely
volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of
any particular company.

I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though,
the more companies that survive, which companies also make some
contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better.

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["Morel Bérenger"]

Le Jeu 29 novembre 2012 22:56, Slavko a écrit :
> Hi,
>
>
> DĹ a Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:35:07 +0000 Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org>
> napĂ­sal:

I remember to have used bugreport sometimes (2, IIRC, with identified
solutions). But I do not remember having any responses :)
I wonder if it is possible to access a true bug tracker, which can allow
some following.

> And finally, there is this user mail list, where can be contribution
> done too - by helping to others :-)
>
> This last point of contribution is essential in Ubuntu/Debian
> comparing. The Ubuntu users seems to be more visible by amount of their
> forums, mail lists, articles, etc. The Ubuntu's howtos and articles helps
> are mostly useful for Debian too.

I think it depends on the problem you have. Usually, I am navigating
between 2-3 distro's resources depending on the difficulty of the
problem/question I have:
_ Ubuntu for common problems with easy solutions
_ Arch & gentoo for problems related to deep tinkering and rarely used
softwares/configurations, like tiling window managers or configuring the
computer to make TTY1 behaving as a light display manager.

> But i latest time i read something about
> commercialization of the Ubuntu (if i proper remmeber, Cannonical tell
> something about new OS, but Linux based), i am not sure how this Ubuntu's
> users contribution will be in future and who will be profit from it.

I think there is no problems if they make another OS commercialized.
Sounds like (at least, they claim that) they have problems with making
money with their actual and their tries to insert money-generating
features in it does not sounds so popular.
Maybe they should follow the red-hat's way, but for "basic" users instead
of professionals.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 16:16 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.m...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> > I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this:
> >
> > Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu
> > there still would be a successful Debian.
>
> This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely
> volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of
> any particular company.
>
> I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though,
> the more companies that survive, which companies also make some
> contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better.

I started with Suse 9.0, when Suse wasn't Novell. Novell, Red Hat and
Mark Shuttleworth killed Linux, time to look out for other *NIX or to
follow them. The variety of Linux already is dead.

Take a look at the thread "Notifications changed in LXDE under wheezy"
for Xfce an issue too.

FUD? Again, people might chose applications that don't have insane
dependencies, MUAs without a GUI etc., but we don't have the freedom to
use what app we want, as it was possible in the past.

Regards,
Ralf

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 11:07 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> I have one package in mind - the
> > lightdm and its autologin feature - communication with maintainer
> was
> > terrible and caused, that i will don't fill bug for this package in
> > future.
> I remember to have used bugreport sometimes (2, IIRC, with identified
> solutions). But I do not remember having any responses :)
> I wonder if it is possible to access a true bug tracker, which can
> allow
> some following.

Some people from upstream treat users like idiots. I don't use bug
trackers, I even don't mention all the current bugs any more. All bugs
caused by e.g. pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME dependencies are
features, no bugs.

OTOH, regarding to applications there are coders who care a lot about
the users, e.g. Rui Nuno Capela. If you e.g. report a bug to Qtractor
devel, it usually takes less than an hour and the bug is fixed, you only
have to compile Qtractor from svn and build the package yourself.

YMMV!

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["Morel Bérenger"]

Le Ven 30 novembre 2012 11:49, Ralf Mardorf a �crit :

> On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 16:16 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>
>> On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.m...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like
>>> this:
>>>
>>>
>>> Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without
>>> Ubuntu
>>> there still would be a successful Debian.
>>
>> This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely
>> volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of
>> any particular company.
>>
>> I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though,
>> the more companies that survive, which companies also make some
>> contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better.
>
>
> I started with Suse 9.0, when Suse wasn't Novell. Novell, Red Hat and
> Mark Shuttleworth killed Linux, time to look out for other *NIX or to
> follow them. The variety of Linux already is dead.

Hum...
As far as I know (and as distrowatch say), there are still many linux
distributions. I like variety, or to be more exact, Debian teach me to
like it, but I only like it when I can see and understand the difference
between choices.
I am still a linux newbie, and I still only have really experienced one
distro, but as a newbie I can say that I do not see the difference between
distributions, and so, I do not see why I should try another binary one.

Ah, yes, package's age, package's system (but I do not know the difference
in terms of power between rpm and deb, by example) and graphical
configuration system (someone said me on a developpez.com thread).

So, well, I agree, less choice. But was there real differences between all
of those old distros?
I think less choice is sometimes a requirement to help people doing a true
choice.
Do you know why I firstly choosed Debian? It have the reputation of a hard
to install distro, and at that time I thought I was good with computers. I
managed to install it the first time, without manual or problems. But I
had no graphic interface, and even if I was able to use command-lines (I
was accustomed to DOS) I had no clue about what to do to install Xorg.
Well, I did not even known that it exists :D (strange: now I'm really
better in computer sciences, but I think/claim everywhere that I am a
newbie. Times and people change...)
Some months later, I bought a magazine shipping live ubuntu. I tried it. I
did not liked it's desktop and so returned to my good old xp (or was it
98se?).
But it made me aware that it was possible to have convenient graphical
environment and easy installation systems for a linux-based OS. So, no,
Ubuntu did not killed linux.
And honestly, Ubuntu and Fedora can not choose for Debian or gentoo, by
example. Each distro should follow it's own way, and if there ways
converge, so maybe that's not so useful to have tons of distros.

> Take a look at the thread "Notifications changed in LXDE under wheezy"
> for Xfce an issue too.
>
> FUD? Again, people might chose applications that don't have insane
> dependencies, MUAs without a GUI etc., but we don't have the freedom to use
> what app we want, as it was possible in the past.

With XFCE, at least in 4.08 and 4.10, it is possible when I was using
them. You can install any file manager, window manager, notification
daemon/plug-in you want, if it fills freedesktop's recommendations, it
will integrates well with the DE. If not, you can use it, but I do not
know if it will be comfortable. Never tried.

Of course, you can install the xfce4 meta package, which have hard
dependencies on all major XFCE4 components.
But the truth is that XFCE4 package is not needed. When I was using it, I
was accustomed to say to aptitude to select it, and then in preview, I
removed it, and set the dependencies it have as manually installed.
I always thought it should have no dependencies, only recommendations, but
never reported that idea.
There is also xfce4-core, for minimal meta-package shipping only basic
components.
I perfectly remember that there was a package named xfce-notify or alike.

In XFCE, there is also a configuration system that allow you to change
their appearance quite easily.
However I can not describe how to change the config, because:
_ I did not used xfce since so many time
_ my menus were in French
_ how to describe an icon when themes can be customized? How to describe
how to clic? In French, I use a neologism to describe the kind of
softwares that MS have so much knowledge to do: cliquodrom (from clic and
velodrome ;)). They are easy to use mouse-only softwares, but hard to
teach the use with just text, because their appearance can change
depending on so many parameters. And I do not like them, of course :D

XFCE have a central library set, so there are common dependencies. But
LXDE avoid them, that's their leitmotiv and it explains why I am still
using some of their softwares, instead of DE independent alternatives
(leafpad and lxterminal to be exact).

Maybe in the past, there were more choices. But I wonder how many
softwares sharing the same goal, the same way to think there were? And how
many dev/project? And now?
Reducing the choice sometimes allow people to choose better.

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["Morel Bérenger"]

> Some people from upstream treat users like idiots. I don't use bug
> trackers, I even don't mention all the current bugs any more. All bugs
> caused by e.g. pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME dependencies are
> features, no bugs.

Trollday? :P

> OTOH, regarding to applications there are coders who care a lot about
> the users, e.g. Rui Nuno Capela. If you e.g. report a bug to Qtractor
> devel, it usually takes less than an hour and the bug is fixed, you only
> have to compile Qtractor from svn and build the package yourself.

I would like to have a professional job on an open source project, that
should be very instructive and nice for motivation. (In fact, even simply
being able to work on a linux system could make me happier).
But I think that only rare projects have paid developer, and so that bugs
can take time to be solved.
They can also be very complex depending on the software context.

Honestly, I wonder why people use "pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME" if
they are so bugged?
If people are serious about that, I can only say: ok, so, let's move to
alternatives. You'll see if things are better, and if yes, you can keep
them.

But the serious about the work is not an open-source only problem. Some
people just see their interest, other love their work. I do not know how
to explain that in English, words I know lacks nuances.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:25 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> As I've written for the howto

not howto, but for the the other mail

Pardon, I'm in a hurry.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:05 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> I would like to have a professional job on an open source project,
> that should be very instructive and nice for motivation.

It's a balancing act. Did you think about Google? Google is evil and
good at the same time and they always seek for staff all over the world.
Not everything has to be open source, to support open source.

As I've written for the howto. We do violence to NAZIs where I'm living,
but we also forgive, when they stop being NAZIs and don't care about bad
tattoos etc..

IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts
of Google's policy.

We aren't living in a world like this:
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&gs_rn=0&gs_ri=hp&cp=6&gs_id=1x&xhr=t&q=my+little+pony&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=39314241&biw=1152&bih=729&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=-6S4UJWYIojzsgbb8IDgCQ


There even is open source for Windows, not by Microsoft, but from Windows users.
Linux isn't the only FLOSS on this planet.

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["Morel Bérenger"]

> IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts
> of Google's policy.

It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and home.

> There even is open source for Windows, not by Microsoft, but from Windows
> users. Linux isn't the only FLOSS on this planet.

Well, even Microsoft started doing open stuff.
If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they
are also doing some free softwares.
And I know that they have, at least, started to follow some standards they
did not made.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 12:55 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote about settings
for desktop environments.

Some distos, e.g. Arch Linux don't install X by default.

But now to the settings. Usually you have a mix of GTK and QT
applications, so it also wasn't that easy to set up fonts and colours in
the past. You can't simply do the settings for the desktop environment
you use and expect it will be ok for all applications, but today we are
in a situation where we get more and more complete incompatibilities.

Some hard dependencies are simply unneeded.

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[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 14:35 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> > IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts
> > of Google's policy.
> It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and home.

I'm jobless, I would work for Google, but never ever for McDonald's, not
regarding to the kind of work, I'm willing to flip over Hamburgers. I
don't agree with the policy of Google, but it's ethically tolerable for
my taste. I can eat a Hamburger from McDonald's, I could work one day
for McDonalds, but ethically I couldn't eat my whole life at McDonald's
or work a whole month or longer for this company.

Back to the topic. It's important to get more and more people using
Linux, not because Windows is a bad operating system. Windows 98se was
and XP still is a very good operating system. Microsoft simply is an
evil company. Bill Gates is an evil man.

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["Morel Bérenger"]

Le Ven 30 novembre 2012 15:29, Ralf Mardorf a �crit :

> On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 14:35 +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>
>>> IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many
>>> parts of Google's policy.
>> It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and
>> home.
>
> I'm jobless, I would work for Google, but never ever for McDonald's, not
> regarding to the kind of work, I'm willing to flip over Hamburgers. I don't
> agree with the policy of Google, but it's ethically tolerable for my
> taste. I can eat a Hamburger from McDonald's, I could work one day for
> McDonalds, but ethically I couldn't eat my whole life at McDonald's
> or work a whole month or longer for this company.

I can use google to do one special search, but most of the time I avoid it
as hell. Do you know what? That's the same for McDonald's.
I use disgusting services when I have no other choices.
To be exact, the last thing I still use from google is their map service.
For the search engine I have find a better a long time ago (duckduckgo
which use google's results, I know).

But if I had no other choice than to work for one of those companies,
well, why not?
In fact, I would probably have less problems working for the second, at
least the food vendor is not trying to spy the whole world (at least in
France). He just sell crap to people wanting crap. I see no problem here.
I still have my good restaurants aside, which cost a little more but can
just not be compared (obvious, they do not make fast food).

> Back to the topic. It's important to get more and more people using
> Linux, not because Windows is a bad operating system. Windows 98se was
> and XP still is a very good operating system. Microsoft simply is an evil
> company. Bill Gates is an evil man.

IIRC, BG is no longer working for MS. Well, he probably still have
actions, of course, but I do not think he have still a very big power.

And the subject was the number of users needed to keep a distro alive ;)

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[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, "Morel B�renger" wrote:
> If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they
> are also doing some free softwares.

$ apt-cache show mono-complete

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit :

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>> If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I
>> ~think~ they
>> are also doing some free softwares.
>
> $ apt-cache show mono-complete
>

I was speaking about microsoft :)

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[David Guntner]

berenge...@neutralite.org grabbed a keyboard and wrote:
> Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit :
>> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>>> If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~
>>> they are also doing some free softwares.
>>
>> $ apt-cache show mono-complete
>
> I was speaking about microsoft :)

If I recall correctly, in an earlier posting you made here you asked
about the difference between BSD and Linux. If that wasn't you, I
apologize, and hope that the person who asked will see the subject line
and find this just the same. :-)

I stumbled upon the following write-up on the subject and found it to be
an interesting read. As someone who cut his early teeth on UNIX
systems, I'd say that I largely agree with the distinctions that he
makes between the two.

http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/01

--Dave

[Miles Fidelman]

David Guntner wrote:
> If I recall correctly, in an earlier posting you made here you asked
> about the difference between BSD and Linux. If that wasn't you, I
> apologize, and hope that the person who asked will see the subject
> line and find this just the same. :-)
> I stumbled upon the following write-up on the subject and found it to
> be an interesting read. As someone who cut his early teeth on UNIX
> systems, I'd say that I largely agree with the distinctions that he
> makes between the two.
> http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/01 --Dave

Dave... thanks for the pointer. It's a useful and informative writeup,
and a good read. (I also say this as someone who used early Unices, as
well as both Linux and BSD).

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

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[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:01 PM, "Morel Bérenger"
<berenge...@neutralite.org> wrote:
> And the subject was the number of users needed to keep a distro alive ;)

One. Of course it would take ages for a release. :)

The power of GNU/Linux distros (and other *nixes) lies - IMHO
obviously - in the community of volunteers who keep it. Of course this
is only possible thanks to it being open source, but if hell were to
freeze over of microsoft were to open source Windows 7, you'd see a
dramatic increase in 7's quality. Ever since XP SP3 i've began to tag
Window OSes as tolerable (well except Vista, but that was a beta 7
anyway, management decisions over technical ones for you). Haven't
tried 8 yet, too tablet for me.

As for Debian, i've been a regular user for ages. I don't like the
apparent ease and pointy-clickiness of Ubuntu and i count rant on
about that OS.

--
"On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

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[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:12PM +0100, berenge...@neutralite.org wrote:
> Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a �crit�:

> >On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, "Morel B�renger" wrote:
> >>If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I
> >>~think~ they
> >>are also doing some free softwares.
> >
> >$ apt-cache show mono-complete
> >
>
> I was speaking about microsoft :)

Ummm, ... OK. Did I snip the wrong bit?

My response was because you said "... and I ~think~ they are also doing
some free softwares." I was meaning that there is no need to worry
whether they are doing free .NET software or not because according to
apt-cache show mono-complete"
[...]
Install this package if you want to run software for Mono or Microsoft
.NET which you are not installing from a Debian package.
[...]

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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[berenge...@neutralite.org]

Le 01.12.2012 21:59, Chris Bannister a écrit :
> On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:12PM +0100,
> berenge...@neutralite.org wrote:

>> Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit :

>> >On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>> >>If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I
>> >>~think~ they
>> >>are also doing some free softwares.
>> >
>> >$ apt-cache show mono-complete
>> >
>>
>> I was speaking about microsoft :)
>
> Ummm, ... OK. Did I snip the wrong bit?

No, just you took it out of context ;)

> My response was because you said "... and I ~think~ they are also
> doing
> some free softwares." I was meaning that there is no need to worry
> whether they are doing free .NET software or not because according to
> apt-cache show mono-complete"

I think you mixed .NET softwares and .NET framework. First ones are
softwares using the second one, and mono is the free version of the
second one, if I am not wrong.
I was simply speaking about microsoft making free stuff, no matter if
it is windows only and/or using .NET.

I hope my words are more clear now

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