Wally Lepore

Lisi

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Oct 16, 2012, 4:40:02 AM10/16/12

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Please, everyone, could _everybody_ stop sending Wally Lepore messages to my
npersonal inbox. It is becoming a real nuisance. I keep list separately for
a reason.

I realise that you may need to be sure to eliminate my name from the list if
you want to "reply all", but if we can break this cycle I am sure that I will
not be the only one to benefit.

I would have thought, in fact, that "reply list" is to be preferred anyway.
The Debian Code of Conduct says only to send a copy to an individual if it is
expressly requested.

Thank you,
Lisi

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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 16, 2012, 5:10:02 AM10/16/12

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[changed the subject since it has nothing to do with Wally]

On Ma, 16 oct 12, 09:29:45, Lisi wrote:
> Please, everyone, could _everybody_ stop sending Wally Lepore messages to my
> npersonal inbox. It is becoming a real nuisance. I keep list separately for
> a reason.
>
> I realise that you may need to be sure to eliminate my name from the list if
> you want to "reply all", but if we can break this cycle I am sure that I will
> not be the only one to benefit.
>
> I would have thought, in fact, that "reply list" is to be preferred anyway.
> The Debian Code of Conduct says only to send a copy to an individual if it is
> expressly requested.

Unfortunately the CoC is ignored a lot in this regard. You could set up
a filter in Gmail to archive or delete such mails if you are 100% sure
you don't need them.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 16, 2012, 5:30:02 AM10/16/12

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On Ma, 16 oct 12, 12:06:30, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> Unfortunately the CoC is ignored a lot in this regard. You could set up
> a filter in Gmail to archive or delete such mails if you are 100% sure
> you don't need them.

To elaborate on the filter:

In the Gmail web interface type this in the search box:

to:debia...@lists.debian.org OR cc:debia...@lists.debian.org

and look through the results (this will match all your messages as
well). If you are sure you don't ever need them in your Inbox expand the
the search box like a drop-down menu and click on "Create filter with
this search". The "Mark as read" and "Skip Inbox" actions should do what
you want.

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Lisi

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Oct 16, 2012, 5:30:02 AM10/16/12

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On Tuesday 16 October 2012 10:06:30 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> [changed the subject since it has nothing to do with Wally]

My request does have something to do with Wally, in fact everything to do with
him. It is his emails that are generating this enormous number of private
emails. He sends private copies to people, and everyone else then just
clicks on "reply all". I have belonged to this list for a good many years
and this has _never_ happened before. It is specifically Wally's emails that
I am asking people not to send me. The list exists for that.

> On Ma, 16 oct 12, 09:29:45, Lisi wrote:
> > Please, everyone, could _everybody_ stop sending Wally Lepore messages to
> > my npersonal inbox. It is becoming a real nuisance. I keep list
> > separately for a reason.
> >
> > I realise that you may need to be sure to eliminate my name from the list
> > if you want to "reply all", but if we can break this cycle I am sure that
> > I will not be the only one to benefit.
> >
> > I would have thought, in fact, that "reply list" is to be preferred
> > anyway. The Debian Code of Conduct says only to send a copy to an
> > individual if it is expressly requested.
>
> Unfortunately the CoC is ignored a lot in this regard. You could set up
> a filter in Gmail to archive or delete such mails if you are 100% sure
> you don't need them.

Yes, I know. But I don't actually want to filter the emails about and from
Wally, I just don't want the deluge I am getting of private emails. The list
exists for that, and I do filter the list to be separate.

I can only assume that you have not tried to help Wally and been deluged in
this way.

Lisi

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Lisi

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Oct 16, 2012, 5:50:02 AM10/16/12

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On Tuesday 16 October 2012 10:22:27 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 16 oct 12, 12:06:30, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > Unfortunately the CoC is ignored a lot in this regard. You could set up
> > a filter in Gmail to archive or delete such mails if you are 100% sure
> > you don't need them.
>
> To elaborate on the filter:
>
> In the Gmail web interface type this in the search box:
>
> to:debia...@lists.debian.org OR cc:debia...@lists.debian.org
>
> and look through the results (this will match all your messages as
> well). If you are sure you don't ever need them in your Inbox expand the
> the search box like a drop-down menu and click on "Create filter with
> this search". The "Mark as read" and "Skip Inbox" actions should do what
> you want.

I know that, thank you. I have done it frequently. I don't want to filter all
Wally's emails and all the replies to the list. You have clearly not
understood at all, because you are telling me how to filter out Wally's stuff
to the list. I do want to help and follow. I do _not_ want the emails about
Wally sent to me as well as to the list.

It is getting beyond a joke. I can certainly say that I emphatically do not
want a _personal_ copy in addition to the mailing list one. This is a
problem that I have never met before, hope never to meet again, and it is
ridiculous.

This is turning into a flame and I have no wish to quarrel with you. You are
not getting deluged so it doesn't inconvenience you. Fine. You don't
understand the problem. Fine. But please everyone else, just send the
replies to Wally's stuff to the list and not to me personally as well.

Lisi

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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 16, 2012, 6:40:01 AM10/16/12

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On Ma, 16 oct 12, 10:21:00, Lisi wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2012 10:06:30 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > [changed the subject since it has nothing to do with Wally]
>
> My request does have something to do with Wally, in fact everything to do with
> him. It is his emails that are generating this enormous number of private
> emails. He sends private copies to people, and everyone else then just
> clicks on "reply all". I have belonged to this list for a good many years
> and this has _never_ happened before. It is specifically Wally's emails that
> I am asking people not to send me. The list exists for that.

In my experience the amount of CCs increases with the amount of own
posts. Yes, depending on who participates, it may be more likely to get
CCs in one thread rather than others, but I don't think it's quite fair
to point out Wally specifically.

> > Unfortunately the CoC is ignored a lot in this regard. You could set up
> > a filter in Gmail to archive or delete such mails if you are 100% sure
> > you don't need them.
>
> Yes, I know. But I don't actually want to filter the emails about and from
> Wally, I just don't want the deluge I am getting of private emails. The list
> exists for that, and I do filter the list to be separate.

Sorry, I made unfounded assumptions about your mail setup. If you use
Gmail exclusively[1] it might be enough to add the "Skip Inbox" action
to your already existing debian-user filter, but my point is: it should
be possible to create or adjust existing filters so that you filter out
only the annoyances.

[1] I'm receiving all list mail to a completely different account, to
avoid a Gmail quirk.

I generally don't recommend technical solutions to social problems, but
in this particular case I don't see any other viable solution.

> I can only assume that you have not tried to help Wally and been deluged in
> this way.

In this particular case I don't think Wally needs help, just a bit more
confidence in his abilities ;) but I have received lots of CCs in the
past as well.

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Lisi

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Oct 16, 2012, 7:00:03 AM10/16/12

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On Tuesday 16 October 2012 11:35:39 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> In this particular case I don't think Wally needs help, just a bit more
> confidence in his abilities ;) but I have received lots of CCs in the
> past as well.

Yes, so have I. But I am currently getting 95% or more of my personal email
from or about Wally. This has never happened before, and is causing me
considerable inconvenience. I have a fair number of filters set up that
place all list email in separate folders. But I do still have some personal
emails.

As I say, I have never in all the years I have been on this list had anything
like this magnitude of an inconvenience.

And I agree that Wally just needs more confidence, and I have gone to
considerable lengths to try and get him there. I have even been told that I
should be ashamed of myself for telling him to just grab the bull by the
horns and do it. (Whatever it is that time.) But I just can't cope with the
volume I am getting in my personal folder.

I will look again at whether I can word a filter so that it does not exclude
personal emails from list members, which I have no desire to do, but does
exclude copies of things that are also going to the list.

I mostly filter via my email client. The only type of filtering that I do in
Gmail is null-filing.

Lisi

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Jon Dowland

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Oct 16, 2012, 7:10:02 AM10/16/12

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I for one am tired of reading OT threads about people's own mail filtering
failings. The mails you are receiving will have a proper List-Id header. If
your mailer cannot filter on them, then please fix your mailer or change it,
don't clog thie list with more irrelevance.

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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 16, 2012, 7:20:02 AM10/16/12

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On Ma, 16 oct 12, 11:54:51, Lisi wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2012 11:35:39 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > In this particular case I don't think Wally needs help, just a bit more
> > confidence in his abilities ;) but I have received lots of CCs in the
> > past as well.
>
> Yes, so have I. But I am currently getting 95% or more of my personal email
> from or about Wally. This has never happened before, and is causing me
> considerable inconvenience. I have a fair number of filters set up that
> place all list email in separate folders. But I do still have some personal
> emails.

Looking at the archives I see that his replies do address a lot of
people who have not even participated in the thread (yet), for example
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2012/10/msg00603.html

Wally, please don't address your mails directly to people unless
specifically asked to.

I apologize to you and the list for my own breach of the CoC (one should
not complain on list about CCs).

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Ralf Mardorf

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Oct 16, 2012, 10:30:01 AM10/16/12

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On Tue, 2012-10-16 at 10:44 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> This is turning into a flame

C'mon ;)!

Btw. I hope my subject fit to the needs of both of you.

Everybody subscribed to a mailing list, should use software that is able
to handle all kinds of annoyance.

In Germany we say "Der beweglichere macht platz!"

"The more mobile clears the way for the less mobile!"

This does mean, a young man on his skateboard takes care to clear the
way for the grandma with the wheeled walker, but it also does mean that
the person with more knowledge (agility), takes care about the person
with less knowledge, without air of condescension.

Not to confuse with the idiom "Der Klügere gibt nach!" "The cleverer
give in." because nobody gives in to somebody else.

Regards,
Ralf

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Wally Lepore

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Oct 16, 2012, 4:50:03 PM10/16/12

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On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Lisi <lisi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2012 10:06:30 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> [changed the subject since it has nothing to do with Wally]
>
> My request does have something to do with Wally, in fact everything to do with
> him. It is his emails that are generating this enormous number of private
> emails. He sends private copies to people, and everyone else then just
> clicks on "reply all". I have belonged to this list for a good many years
> and this has _never_ happened before. It is specifically Wally's emails that
> I am asking people not to send me. The list exists for that.

There's an old saying, "Keep your reply short, its most memorable".
Well I feel -in this case- 'short' is not appropriate. And memorable?
Booting Debian was memorable. Truly a most memorable day! You were
most supportive in helping me achieve that mission.

Lisi, I thought we already addressed this matter. It was a simple
email miscalculation. That's all!

You brought this concern to my attention yesterday and I politely
explained what happened. I corrected my mailing-list error, apologized
and moved on. Over and done with.

>He sends private copies to people, and everyone else then just
> clicks on "reply all"

I had no idea it would cause such an issue. I'm sorry about that. I
did it one time! You make it sound like this is my mode of operation.
I did it one time!

I sent the private replies in a small series under the same thread to
'apparently' save time in communication and responding. It was a
mistake. Fixed!

In fact, its very time consuming to have to structure emails in that
fashion and its not something I look forward to. I simply thought I it
would speed things up. It was a simple mistake. Its corrected. Won't
happen again!

Perhaps yesterday, I was not clear and will explain myself once again.

I could not keep up with all the helpful replies (to my questions) and
figured that I would answer all posts by including those who
participated in helping. That's all! Nothing more. I now understand
that it was not the best way to communicate.

I was made aware of my error, learned much and the rudder of the ship
has been adjusted to steer 'back-on-course'.

It is very difficult and time consuming to try and keep up with all
the helpful replies, type long email responses, ask questions, work at
my job, and meet the needs of my family. All in a single day! Thus to
save time, I thought I could speed up the conversation and move it
forward.

I simply wanted to be sure that those few participants in the current
thread were informed of my responses as I was not sure if all were
being read on-list. I thought that was part of the etiquette process.

Leaving replies unanswered (I thought) would not generate future help.
Therefore, as simple as most of my reply have been, it tells those who
have posted that I did -in fact- read their message. That's all.

My questions may seem repetitive due to the fact that over 90% of the
replies have been well above my current threshold of understanding.
This mailing-list includes very intelligent Debian-users and
programmers (like yourself) who are very patient and do their best to
help newcomers. I understand your concern and continue to learn,
comply, remain patient and re-read the replies over and over until I
begin to understand.

I read all your posts in this thread and to be honest I became lost in
all the back and forth details in regards to email-filters, archives,
CC, Bcc etc. My gosh, is there an Acc? :) Too much, too long. I only
have so much space reserved in my brain for confusion and that space
is currently reserved for Linux.

Please let it be known that the debian-user 'code of conduct' is NOT
ignored and IS complied with on a best efforts. Mistakes will
accidentally occur and will be corrected.

Trust me on this one.... I (like all of us) have limited time. I have
been considering installing Linux for years but the down-time in doing
so was not afforded. I finally found the time to get involved and in
doing so, I approach the opportunity very methodically.

I jumped to the other-side of the fence to see what's going on. To
learn about GNU/Linux. Isn't that called Opportunity? Progress?
Knowledge? Sharing?

I am very thorough in my approach and delicately consider every
message before its posted. At times (like all of us) we are exhausted
from working a thread all day, become less proficient and make
mistakes. It just happens at times.

Perhaps it would also be helpful if the debian user-list allowed
editing and deleting of email posts by their respective authors. If
that were available, perhaps I would consider cleaning up most of my
apparent 'redundant' posts.

Your feelings in regards to certain replies from other users have
certainly caused you unwarranted stress. I understand your concern but
let it be known, your reply to my question that said, "just grab the
bull by the horns and do it" was excellent encouragement. As a result,
it forced me to re-think my strategy. I took your advice and moved
intelligently forward. Now I have debian installed. What's wrong with
that?

I am new to the list and simply misunderstood for a brief moment how
the user-list functions. I have it under control now.

I learned a lot from your help and look forward to your continued
support. Your support-answers are very valuable to the user-list. I
consider your help and solutions as 'top-tier' level and look forward
to every reply that you provide.

I'm here to learn GNU/Linux and eventually help and encourage new users as well.

Please consider emailing the debian-user admin and request removal of
this thread that contains my name on the subject line. Not a very
positive way for me to continue in Debian.

Once again, I'm sorry if I caused any inconvenience.

Regards
Wally p.s Helpful hint: In the Debian Squeeze install procedure,
you can double click on any selection to view further choices
and configuration. Best wishes!

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Wally Lepore

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Oct 16, 2012, 5:00:02 PM10/16/12

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On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Andrei POPESCU
<andreim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking at the archives I see that his replies do address a lot of
> people who have not even participated in the thread (yet), for example
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2012/10/msg00603.html

Andrei,

Appreciate your advice but please read my post again. Everyone I
included in that post is involved and has -in fact- responded to the
mentioned thread.

>
> Wally, please don't address your mails directly to people unless
> specifically asked to.
>
> I apologize to you and the list for my own breach of the CoC (one should
> not complain on list about CCs).

Will comply. Thank you Andrei
Wally

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Lisi

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Oct 16, 2012, 7:00:02 PM10/16/12

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I replied to Wally off-list. This whole thing is getting ridiculous. He says
he has learnt - then promptly does it again!

I shall not reply again. To the great relief, I am sure, of some, if he
emails me off list again, I shall simply kill-file him, as several of you
have suggested.

On Tuesday 16 October 2012 21:41:28 Wally Lepore wrote:
[snip]

Lisi

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Oct 18, 2012, 12:30:02 PM10/18/12

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Wally Lepore <wally...@gmail.com> writes:

> feeling. I only replied to two email addresses: Lisi and the user-list
> (reply-all).

That is exactly what Lisi doesn't want you to do. She wants you to
reply to the list only and *not* to her address.

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lee

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Oct 18, 2012, 12:30:02 PM10/18/12

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Jon Dowland <jm...@debian.org> writes:

> failings. The mails you are receiving will have a proper List-Id
> header.

They are CCs and, of course, don't have a List-Id header. Even if they
had one: If your filtering puts mails addressed to you through a
CC header somewhere else just because it contains a List-Id header, then
your filtering is misconfigured.

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lee

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Oct 18, 2012, 12:30:03 PM10/18/12

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Wally Lepore <wally...@gmail.com> writes:

> In fact, its very time consuming to have to structure emails in that
> fashion and its not something I look forward to.

A decent MUA would make things a lot easier for you. Gnus is said to
work well with gmail.

> I read all your posts in this thread and to be honest I became lost in
> all the back and forth details in regards to email-filters, archives,
> CC, Bcc etc. My gosh, is there an Acc? :)

See http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0822.txt --- there's a bit more to it
than that, though.

> Perhaps it would also be helpful if the debian user-list allowed
> editing and deleting of email posts by their respective authors. If
> that were available, perhaps I would consider cleaning up most of my
> apparent 'redundant' posts.

That would involve modifying the mails stored on recipients computers,
in backups, mailing list archives and where ever else. I don't like the
idea of someone else modifying data I have stored somewhere ...

> Please consider emailing the debian-user admin and request removal of
> this thread that contains my name on the subject line.

Why would anyone do that?

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lee

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Oct 18, 2012, 12:30:03 PM10/18/12

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Lisi <lisi....@gmail.com> writes:

> It is getting beyond a joke. I can certainly say that I emphatically do not
> want a _personal_ copy in addition to the mailing list one. This is a
> problem that I have never met before, hope never to meet again, and it is
> ridiculous.

It happens from time to time on various lists since there's no general
agreement about what to do. I made a folder I move such messages into,
and that solves the problem for me. I don't understand how a few mails
can cause so much inconvenience for you.

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Chris Bannister

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Oct 19, 2012, 6:40:01 PM10/19/12

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On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 05:37:03PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Wally Lepore <wally...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > In fact, its very time consuming to have to structure emails in that
> > fashion and its not something I look forward to.
>
> A decent MUA would make things a lot easier for you. Gnus is said to
> work well with gmail.

Huh? Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader and requires emacs to be
installed. Please don't confuse newcomers to Linux.

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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
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John Hasler

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Oct 19, 2012, 7:10:03 PM10/19/12

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Chris Bannister writes:
> Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader...

You didn't look very closely. Gnus works quite well for both news and
email and offers all the advantages of a newsreader such as groups,
killfiles, scoring, and threading. It is intended to be used for both.

> ...and requires emacs to be installed.

So what?
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Neal Murphy

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Oct 19, 2012, 7:20:02 PM10/19/12

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On Friday, October 19, 2012 07:00:35 PM John Hasler wrote:
> > ...and requires emacs to be installed.
> 
> So what?
 

I used emacs back when it was written in TECO and have used a few flavors since. I'd *never* advise a new user to use emacs. They have enough to learn; they don't need to double or triple the load, or steepen the learning curve.

John Hasler

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Oct 19, 2012, 7:40:02 PM10/19/12

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> I used emacs back when it was written in TECO and have used a few
> flavors since.

So have I, but I also use the current version. Hint: it has _menus_.

> I'd *never* advise a new user to use emacs.

I would.

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Chris Bannister

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Oct 19, 2012, 8:40:01 PM10/19/12

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On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 06:00:35PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Chris Bannister writes:
> > Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader...
>
> You didn't look very closely. Gnus works quite well for both news and
> email and offers all the advantages of a newsreader such as groups,
> killfiles, scoring, and threading. It is intended to be used for both.

Ahh. OK, Should I have said "Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader but if
you jump through a few hoops and get used to a different paradigm it can
be used as an MUA. If you know, and enjoy LISP then configuring it
will be an enjoyable experience."?

> > ...and requires emacs to be installed.
>
> So what?

A newcomer to Linux who is advised to use Gnus, should at least be
warned that they will be installing emacs.

I will add that, if anyone does take the emacs+gnus route they will have
a powerful and versatile system which a lot of developers/users swear by.

On the other hand, a lot of developers/users swear by the vim+mutt route.

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Neal Murphy

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Oct 19, 2012, 9:10:02 PM10/19/12

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On Friday, October 19, 2012 08:27:25 PM Chris Bannister wrote:
> ...

> > I will add that, if anyone does take the emacs+gnus route they will have
> a powerful and versatile system which a lot of developers/users swear by.
> 
> On the other hand, a lot of developers/users swear by the vim+mutt route.
 

Alas, not everyone who uses a computer is a developer.

John Hasler

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Oct 19, 2012, 11:10:01 PM10/19/12

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> OK, Should I have said "Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader but if
> you jump through a few hoops and get used to a different paradigm it
> can be used as an MUA.

No more need to jump through hoops than with any other MUA.

> If you know, and enjoy LISP then configuring it will be an enjoyable
> experience."?

No need for any elisp. All configuration can be done via menus.

> A newcomer to Linux who is advised to use Gnus, should at least be
> warned that they will be installing emacs.

Installing Thunderbird pulls in libraries that are larger than Emacs.

> On the other hand, a lot of developers/users swear by the vim+mutt
> route.

I use Emacs and Gnus, my wife uses Vi and Mutt. We're still married.
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lee

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Oct 20, 2012, 2:10:01 AM10/20/12

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Wally wants to learn some C programming, thus I suggested he learn emacs
and might use gnus and try out vim and/or joe, whatever he likes best.
Perhaps I should have mentioned mutt as well, but mutt with imap can be
rather awkward.

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lee

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Oct 20, 2012, 2:10:01 AM10/20/12

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Chris Bannister <cbann...@slingshot.co.nz> writes:

> Huh? Last I looked, Gnus was a newsreader and requires emacs to be
> installed.

Look closer, it is a very powerful MUA as well.

> Please don't confuse newcomers to Linux.

I suggested that he learn to use emacs in some other posts.

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Chris Bannister

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Oct 20, 2012, 9:40:02 AM10/20/12

to

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 10:07:25PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote on Oct 18th?

> > If you know, and enjoy LISP then configuring it will be an enjoyable
> > experience."?
>
> No need for any elisp. All configuration can be done via menus.

Interesting.

> > A newcomer to Linux who is advised to use Gnus, should at least be
> > warned that they will be installing emacs.
>
> Installing Thunderbird pulls in libraries that are larger than Emacs.

Luckily, I already knew that thunderbird is called icedove in Debian.

root@tal:~# apt-get install icedove
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
[...]
Need to get 18.7 MB of archives.
After this operation, 37.1 MB of additional disk space will be used.

BUT not so lucky with gnus ...

root@tal:~# apt-get install gnus
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package gnus is not available, but is referred to by another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source

E: Package 'gnus' has no installation candidate

root@tal:~# apt-cache search gnus | grep reader
dictionaryreader.app - Dict client for GNUstep
grr.app - RSS reader for GNUstep
lusernet.app - News reader for GNUstep
root@tal:~# apt-cache search gnus | grep mua
root@tal:~# apt-cache search gnus | grep mail
x-pgp-sig-el - X-PGP-Sig mail and news header utility for Emacs
fetchmail - SSL enabled POP3, APOP, IMAP mail gatherer/forwarder
gnumail.app - Mail client for GNUstep
gnumail.app-dbg - Mail client for GNUstep (debugging symbols)
mailcrypt - Emacs interface to GPG and PGP
mboxgrep - Grep through mailboxes
libpantomime1.2 - GNUstep framework for mail handling (runtime library)
libpantomime1.2-dev - GNUstep framework for mail handling (development
files)
root@tal:~# apt-cache search gnus | grep news
x-pgp-sig-el - X-PGP-Sig mail and news header utility for Emacs

After much messing around:

root@tal:~# apt-cache show emacs23
[...]
Provides: editor, emacs23-gtk, emacsen, info-browser, mail-reader, news-reader

So its builtin?
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusTutorial#toc1
"Gnus 5.7 has been included in Emacs 20.5 through 20.7, and Emacs 21.1
will contain Gnus 5.9."

Excellent.!! So if you are going to install emacs23, you get Gnus for
free. It would be a waste not to use it.

BUT ...

root@tal:~# apt-get install emacs23
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
[...]
Need to get 26.6 MB of archives.
After this operation, 84.9 MB of additional disk space will be used.

Compared to icedove it requires 69% more download and uses 43.7% more
diskspace.

I'm not running any desktop, just basic xorg and fvwm, and yet icedove
doesn't pull in extra libraries.

Just as (since I last looked) gnus is now included within emacs, icedove
has been "cleaned up" since you last looked?

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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 21, 2012, 5:00:02 AM10/21/12

to

On Sb, 20 oct 12, 06:54:21, lee wrote:
>
> Wally wants to learn some C programming, thus I suggested he learn emacs
> and might use gnus and try out vim and/or joe, whatever he likes best.
> Perhaps I should have mentioned mutt as well, but mutt with imap can be
> rather awkward.

Could you please elaborate on that? As far as I can tell it's just a
matter of configuring mutt correctly (the defaults are not really
optimal). Mutt + Gmail, now that is a challenge!

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Erwan David

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Oct 21, 2012, 5:20:02 AM10/21/12

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On 21/10/12 10:51, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 20 oct 12, 06:54:21, lee wrote:
>>
>> Wally wants to learn some C programming, thus I suggested he learn emacs
>> and might use gnus and try out vim and/or joe, whatever he likes best.
>> Perhaps I should have mentioned mutt as well, but mutt with imap can be
>> rather awkward.
>
> Could you please elaborate on that? As far as I can tell it's just a
> matter of configuring mutt correctly (the defaults are not really
> optimal). Mutt + Gmail, now that is a challenge!
>

Not really, the challenge is mutt + heavy html emails...
GMail is easy once you activate imap and use mutt as an imap reader (in
that case it's better to use the header caching).

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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 21, 2012, 5:50:02 AM10/21/12

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On Du, 21 oct 12, 11:10:09, Erwan David wrote:
> On 21/10/12 10:51, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > Mutt + Gmail, now that is a challenge!
> >
> Not really, the challenge is mutt + heavy html emails...
> GMail is easy once you activate imap and use mutt as an imap reader (in
> that case it's better to use the header caching).

Of course I'm using Gmail via IMAP ;) but it needs special handling:

$ grep 'imap.gmail.com.*macro' .mutt/hooks_muttrc | wc
6 44 722

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lee

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Oct 21, 2012, 12:10:01 PM10/21/12

to

Andrei POPESCU <andreim...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sb, 20 oct 12, 06:54:21, lee wrote:
>>
>> Wally wants to learn some C programming, thus I suggested he learn emacs
>> and might use gnus and try out vim and/or joe, whatever he likes best.
>> Perhaps I should have mentioned mutt as well, but mutt with imap can be
>> rather awkward.
>
> Could you please elaborate on that? As far as I can tell it's just a
> matter of configuring mutt correctly (the defaults are not really
> optimal). Mutt + Gmail, now that is a challenge!

Mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders in mind. It merely
acknowledges the concept because the mails need to be stored
/somewhere/.

There isn't much I could elaborate. I was told mutt can be configured
to make it less awkward to use with imap and I never bothered to figure
out how to do that because I never really used it with imap because mutt
is so awkward to use with imap :) I'm not really using imap anyway, and
if I need it for some reason, I use seamonkey. Now if I seriously
wanted to use imap, I'd set up gnus for it. And I'm not using gmail,
either.

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Chris Bannister

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Oct 21, 2012, 11:50:01 PM10/21/12

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On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 05:58:59PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders in mind. It merely
> acknowledges the concept because the mails need to be stored
> /somewhere/.

You mean it doesn't work out of the box and requires some configuration?
Hey, JFYI most good software is like that. It is designed with the
concept of directories, which is the Unix/Linux equivalent of the
Win/Mac concept of folders.

Have you *actually* looked at the configuration options available with
mutt?

> There isn't much I could elaborate. I was told mutt can be configured

So you never bothered looking yourself.

> to make it less awkward to use with imap and I never bothered to figure

Of course it has to be configured, just like any other software!

> out how to do that because I never really used it with imap because mutt
> is so awkward to use with imap :)

Oh, now you are saying you have never really used it with imap.

Well, I have, and it works a treat thankyou very much.

Please don't spread FUD. If you don't know don't guess. Or at least
state that it is a personal problem that it didn't work for you and that
it is not a generally held belief.

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lee

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Oct 22, 2012, 9:50:01 AM10/22/12

to

Chris Bannister <cbann...@slingshot.co.nz> writes:

> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 05:58:59PM +0200, lee wrote:
>> Mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders in mind. It merely
>> acknowledges the concept because the mails need to be stored
>> /somewhere/.
>
> You mean it doesn't work out of the box and requires some configuration?

No, I mean that mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders in mind.

> Hey, JFYI most good software is like that.

Oh really? I never noticed and I'm so surprised you wouldn't believe it
...

> It is designed with the concept of directories, which is the
> Unix/Linux equivalent of the Win/Mac concept of folders.

Have you looked at the documentation of mutt? It talks about mail
folders. It also talks about directories. It cannot rename folders or
directories and it cannot (re-)move them (the argument is that mutt
isn't a file manager), and it doesn't really show you a list of the
folders or directories you have stored your mail in. You can configure
it to kinda do that, and when the folders/directories change (like when
you create a new one or rename or (re-)move one), you either need to
update the configuration or use some external software to dynamically
generate a list to use in the configuration. I call that awkward.
Again: mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders (or directories)
in mind.

> Have you *actually* looked at the configuration options available with
> mutt?

Sure, I looked at them many times. I have used mutt for over 15 years
and then switched to gnus.

>> There isn't much I could elaborate. I was told mutt can be configured
>
> So you never bothered looking yourself.

Not for imap, like I said.

> Oh, now you are saying you have never really used it with imap.

I never said I did. I know it does imap because I occasionally used it
with imap and it was very awkward. I was told it can be configured to
make using it with imap less awkward. I never tried to do that, so
there isn't much I could elaborate about that. I already said that.

> Well, I have, and it works a treat thankyou very much.

I haven't said it doesn't work.

> Please don't spread FUD.

Please learn to read.

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John L. Cunningham

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Oct 22, 2012, 10:10:01 AM10/22/12

to

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:10:09AM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> On 21/10/12 10:51, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > Could you please elaborate on that? As far as I can tell it's just a
> > matter of configuring mutt correctly (the defaults are not really
> > optimal). Mutt + Gmail, now that is a challenge!
> >
> Not really, the challenge is mutt + heavy html emails...

That depends on what you expect, I suppose. I find setting Autoview to
use w3m -dump (which I believe is the default on Wheezy) does a great
job. But, then I also find an inverse correlation between the amount of
html formatting an email has, and my desire to read it.
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Andrei POPESCU

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Oct 22, 2012, 10:20:01 AM10/22/12

to

On Lu, 22 oct 12, 15:41:48, lee wrote:
>
> Have you looked at the documentation of mutt? It talks about mail
> folders. It also talks about directories. It cannot rename folders or
> directories and it cannot (re-)move them (the argument is that mutt
> isn't a file manager), and it doesn't really show you a list of the
> folders or directories you have stored your mail in. You can configure
> it to kinda do that, and when the folders/directories change (like when
> you create a new one or rename or (re-)move one), you either need to
> update the configuration or use some external software to dynamically
> generate a list to use in the configuration. I call that awkward.
> Again: mutt isn't designed with the concept of folders (or directories)
> in mind.

Here's the snippet I use:

# Use everything that looks like a mailbox in ~/Maildir/
# except the ones explicitely excluded
mailboxes ! + `\
for file in ~/Maildir/.*; do \
box=$(basename "$file"); \
if [ ! "$box" = '.' -a ! "$box" = '..' \
-a ! "$box" = '.debian' \
-a ! "$box" = '.notmuch' \
echo -n "\"+$box\" "; \
fi; \
done`

This is not needed for IMAP. It also understands the concept of
subscribed folder:

# only show subscribed folders
set imap_list_subscribed

# check all subscribed folders for new mail
set imap_check_subscribed

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lee

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Oct 22, 2012, 7:40:02 PM10/22/12

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Andrei POPESCU <andreim...@gmail.com> writes:

> Here's the snippet I use:
>
>
> # Use everything that looks like a mailbox in ~/Maildir/
> # except the ones explicitely excluded
> mailboxes ! + `\
> for file in ~/Maildir/.*; do \
> box=$(basename "$file"); \
> if [ ! "$box" = '.' -a ! "$box" = '..' \
> -a ! "$box" = '.debian' \
> -a ! "$box" = '.notmuch' \
> echo -n "\"+$box\" "; \
> fi; \
> done`

Yeah I wrote a program to do something like that. At least it helped.
I'd have made a Debian package for it if it wasn't so insanely difficult
to make a package, so I put it on sourceforge or freshmeat and last time
I checked, it had disappeared without notice.

Oh, google still finds it: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mutt-mb/

Hm, their download counter is funny ...

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