Does anyone know how to configure a Brother MFC-J5720DW with cups?

[Jarle Aase]

Hi all,

I read some good reviews about this network printer/scanner, and noticed
that it can scan to email or FTP. So I made the flawed(?) assumption
that the printer would work independently without a software suite /
drivers from Brother.

I tried to install it with the kde "Print Settings" front-end to cups.
"Print Settings" finds the printer and lists several interfaces -
however, I am unable to print anything no matter what configuration
(combination of network protocol / printer driver) I use.

I know that I can download a bash script from Brother.com and run it as
root - and then the printer is supposed to work with Debian. However,
I'm not comfortable doing that. Actually, I'll rather scrap the printer
and get another one that support lpd/ps natively than risk compromising
/ messing up my system.

So my question is really if anyone have experience with recent Brother
network printers and know a cups configuration that works with one of
the standard Debian/Linux drivers.

I'm using both Debian Testing and Debian Stable on different machines
right now.

Best regards,

jgaa

[Sven Arvidsson]

I think you can safely extract the mfcj5720dwcupswrapper-3.0.1-
1.i386.deb file and extract the PPD and install it manually.

There's also a bash script in there (looks like it just installs the
ppd and restart cups) and a binary, not sure what that does.

You might have better luck installing and configuring the printer from
the web GUI.

--
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5

[deloptes]

Jarle Aase wrote:

> I read some good reviews about this network printer/scanner, and noticed
> that it can scan to email or FTP. So I made the flawed(?) assumption
> that the printer would work independently without a software suite /
> drivers from Brother.

google

http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadtop.aspx?c=us&lang=en&prod=mfcj5720dw_us_eu_as

what is(are) the deb package(s) for?

regards

[Jarle Aase]

Thanks for the reply.

The printer is configured and receives the print jobs from my PC.
However, it prints nothing.

I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from hardware
vendors. I don't think they have quite the same focus on security that I
have. Basically, if a network printer require proprietary drivers to
work - then it is broken by design. I have used lpd + postscript for
around 20 years, and it just works. It's fine if Brother want to embrace
newer technologies and provide a better UX, but not providing a
fall-back to open standards seems weird.

Anyway - I think this printer supports both pcl and postscript. So
unless Brother deliberately is looking for a fingerprint or something in
the payloads, it should be possible to trick it into printing my
documents. Hopefully it's just a matter of understanding what the
printer expects to receive in order to print.

One alternative is to install a dedicated VM with Debian and use it as a
print server. However, since I use both laptops and PC's, it's not
convenient.

jgaa

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 11:39 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:
> I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from
> hardware 

I didn't suggest that. I suggested extracting the PPD and using that.

[Jarle Aase]

Den 08. mars 2016 11:53, skrev Sven Arvidsson:
> On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 11:39 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:
>> I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from
>> hardware
> I didn't suggest that. I suggested extracting the PPD and using that.
>

Yes, you are right. That might work. Thank you!

Jarle

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 12:01 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:
> Yes, you are right. That might work. Thank you!
>

Actually, you will probably need the filter binaries too. You can
install them manually too, but you will be running non-free software. 

Some Brother printers are covered by foomatic-db, but your particular
model doesn't seem to be :(

[Jarle Aase]

Den 08. mars 2016 12:15, skrev Sven Arvidsson:
> On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 12:01 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:
>> Yes, you are right. That might work. Thank you!
>>
> Actually, you will probably need the filter binaries too. You can
> install them manually too, but you will be running non-free software.
>
> Some Brother printers are covered by foomatic-db, but your particular
> model doesn't seem to be :(
>

Do you know why these printers require binary drivers? I am asking both
technically and rationally.

I mean, by requiring this, Brother is exposing themselves for a
maintenance nightmare as the divers needs to be kept up to date with all
the supported Linux distributions, Windows versions and OS/X versions.

(I have not kept up with the printer technology in recent years. A
friend and I wrote a word processor for QNX and Unix back in the early
ninetieths. At that time we supported PCL and Postscript natively. So I
did know this technology fairly well a long time ago).

Jarle

[deloptes]

Jarle Aase wrote:

> Do you know why these printers require binary drivers? I am asking both
> technically and rationally.

I think
1. probably license agreements between manufacturer and supplier (of
microchips etc) that prevent revealing information about hardware parts
2. profit - cheep hardware sold for profit to much higher price - you do not
want to reveal how you make this cheep hardware work. Most of the companies
provide some part in closed fashion (firmware etc) and cover the heart of
the technology they develop.
3. It is more confident the manufacturer provides the software than the
community reverse engineer the same. We should appreciate companies that
(still) support linux OS.

BTW I'm using Epson scanner with it's iscan tool since wheezy. It works just
great - no need to update since first installation.

Of course if you require high level of security you can not trust such
binaries, but if you are at this level of security I do not think you will
be working at the computer that much or at least use such kind of hardware.
In such case it is best to use analog equipment or PC in closed network.
You still have choice(s).

regards

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 12:26:37PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> Jarle Aase wrote:
>
> > Do you know why these printers require binary drivers? I am asking both
> > technically and rationally.
>
> I think
> 1. probably license agreements between manufacturer and supplier (of
> microchips etc) that prevent revealing information about hardware parts
> 2. profit - cheep hardware sold for profit to much higher price - you do not
> want to reveal how you make this cheep hardware work. Most of the companies
> provide some part in closed fashion (firmware etc) and cover the heart of
> the technology they develop.
> 3. It is more confident the manufacturer provides the software than the
> community reverse engineer the same. We should appreciate companies that
> (still) support linux OS.

4. Better control (by the manufacturer) of "planned obsolescence". If the
community controls the driver, they can tweak it to cope with changing
protocols/requirements/whatever instead of having the user throw away
the gadget and buy a new one.

> BTW I'm using Epson scanner with it's iscan tool since wheezy. It works just
> great - no need to update since first installation.
>
> Of course if you require high level of security you can not trust such
> binaries, but if you are at this level of security I do not think you will
> be working at the computer that much or at least use such kind of hardware.
> In such case it is best to use analog equipment or PC in closed network.
> You still have choice(s).

No, Free Software is not *just* about of security. It offers more security
as one of its (many) collateral benefits.

Regards
- -- tomás
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[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 11:39:51 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:

> The printer is configured and receives the print jobs from my PC. However,
> it prints nothing.

Printing would depend on the configuration on the PC; PPD, driver,
backend etc.

> I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from hardware
> vendors. I don't think they have quite the same focus on security that I
> have. Basically, if a network printer require proprietary drivers to work -
> then it is broken by design. I have used lpd + postscript for around 20

You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/

> years, and it just works. It's fine if Brother want to embrace newer
> technologies and provide a better UX, but not providing a fall-back to open
> standards seems weird.
>
> Anyway - I think this printer supports both pcl and postscript. So unless
> Brother deliberately is looking for a fingerprint or something in the
> payloads, it should be possible to trick it into printing my documents.
> Hopefully it's just a matter of understanding what the printer expects to
> receive in order to print.

Theoretically, a Generic PCL or PostScript PPD could be used with this
printer. You'd lose its specific printer options of course.

> One alternative is to install a dedicated VM with Debian and use it as a
> print server. However, since I use both laptops and PC's, it's not
> convenient.

The MFC-J5720DW supports AirPrint. Depending on which applications you
print from you do not require cupsd on the PC, so you could dispense
with a PPD and driver.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 12:02:14PM +0000, Brian wrote:

[...]

> You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/

This is the usual dangerous strawman which leads, at the end, to do
nothing: "as long as there's something bad happening at X, why would
you care about Y".

Your harddisk has "closed source" firmware. Heck, your CPU, if any newer,
has "closed source" firmware (Intel IME, AMD has something similarly
horrible). Why are you using Debian GNU Linux in the first place?

For me, there's an answer to that, and it is that conquer happens
gradually, sometimes by reverse engineering, sometimes by persuasion.
Watch at the evolution of Qualcomm's stance in the wake of Raspberry
Pi's success for a beautiful example of the second.

As life is, there's no "total victory", but if you do nothing, you
lose.

regards
- -- t

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[Sven Arvidsson]

On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 12:02 +0000, Brian wrote:
> The MFC-J5720DW supports AirPrint. Depending on which applications
> you
> print from you do not require cupsd on the PC, so you could dispense
> with a PPD and driver.

Do you know if/how this works on Debian? 

I find a lot of information about setting up Cups as an AirPrint
server, but nothing about using it as a client.

[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 12:36:56 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 12:02:14PM +0000, Brian wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> > the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/
>
> This is the usual dangerous strawman which leads, at the end, to do
> nothing: "as long as there's something bad happening at X, why would
> you care about Y".
>
> Your harddisk has "closed source" firmware. Heck, your CPU, if any newer,
> has "closed source" firmware (Intel IME, AMD has something similarly
> horrible). Why are you using Debian GNU Linux in the first place?
>
> For me, there's an answer to that, and it is that conquer happens
> gradually, sometimes by reverse engineering, sometimes by persuasion.
> Watch at the evolution of Qualcomm's stance in the wake of Raspberry
> Pi's success for a beautiful example of the second.
>
> As life is, there's no "total victory", but if you do nothing, you
> lose.

I asked a question, one which may give pause for thought and give focus
and direction to what is presumably the chief objective - printing with
a Brother MFC printer. No argument (strawman or otherwise) was given; no
view advanced. No Brother bashing. :)

A pragmatist would take the Brother lpr driver option. Together with the
PPD it offers all the functionality the printer is capable of. As a
matter of interest, the lpr driver is legally distributable by Debian.

Relying on a Generic PPD could lead to satisfactory printing. I'd try it
with a USB connection first. Thinking on, it is possible to adjust the
Brother PPD to not use the lpr driver. This would give a free printing
system on the PC.

The AirPrint facility can also be used to avoid any concerns with
security on the PC.

[Dutch Ingraham]

When networked printers "print" without errors and without actually
printing, it could be your firewall blocking.

[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 14:15:54 +0100, Sven Arvidsson wrote:

> On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 12:02 +0000, Brian wrote:
> > The MFC-J5720DW supports AirPrint. Depending on which applications
> > you print from you do not require cupsd on the PC, so you could
> > dispense with a PPD and driver.
>
> Do you know if/how this works on Debian? 

The printer does Bonjour broadcasting. The broadcasts are detected on
Debian by avahi-daemon. Applications using the GTK print dialog (for
example, Iceweasel) can use avahi-daemon directly to display the printer
in the dialog. Non-GTK applications cannot consult avahi-daemon directly
and need cups-browsed and cupsd to get the printer displayed.

I do not have an AirPrint capable printer but have complete faith in the
process working. :)

> I find a lot of information about setting up Cups as an AirPrint
> server, but nothing about using it as a client.

This is really about using CUPS with an AirPrint device such as an iPAD
and printing to a non-AirPrint capable printer. The Debian CUPS has been
patched to do this; no setup is required on the server.

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 13:51 +0000, Brian wrote:
> The printer does Bonjour broadcasting. The broadcasts are detected on
> Debian by avahi-daemon. Applications using the GTK print dialog (for
> example, Iceweasel) can use avahi-daemon directly to display the
> printer
> in the dialog. Non-GTK applications cannot consult avahi-daemon
> directly
> and need cups-browsed and cupsd to get the printer displayed.
>
> I do not have an AirPrint capable printer but have complete faith in
> the
> process working. :)
>
> >
> > I find a lot of information about setting up Cups as an AirPrint
> > server, but nothing about using it as a client.
> This is really about using CUPS with an AirPrint device such as an
> iPAD
> and printing to a non-AirPrint capable printer. The Debian CUPS has
> been
> patched to do this; no setup is required on the server.

Ah I should have known, I'm actually familiar with this part as it
makes it very easy to set up shared Cups printers in Debian (at least
with GNOME).

I guess it's good to know that Apple users will find it easy to use my
printer :)

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 01:29:11PM +0000, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 12:36:56 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 12:02:14PM +0000, Brian wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> > > the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/
> >
> > This is the usual dangerous strawman which leads, at the end, to do

> > nothing [...]

> I asked a question, one which may give pause for thought and give focus
> and direction to what is presumably the chief objective - printing with
> a Brother MFC printer. No argument (strawman or otherwise) was given; no
> view advanced. No Brother bashing. :)

Perhaps I'm a little dense, but I have a hard time reading your question
differently than "why you agonize about a non free driver if the whole
firmware of your printer is non-free"?

But I'm always interested in learning.

- -- t
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[Jarle Aase]

Den 08. mars 2016 13:26, skrev deloptes:
> Of course if you require high level of security you can not trust such
> binaries, but if you are at this level of security I do not think you
> will be working at the computer that much or at least use such kind of
> hardware. In such case it is best to use analog equipment or PC in
> closed network. You still have choice(s). regards

Many years ago, when I was CTO (function, not title) at a small company,
the developers had two PC's, one connected to the Internet, and one
connected only to an internal development network. Binaries was burned
to CD and then given to customers, or copied to our web servers.
Eventually it became too hard to keep the development on a closed
system. More and more of the development tools expected an Internet
connection. At that time we made most of the revenue making software
that ran on Windows.

Today I miss the feeling of security I had back then. It would be very,
very hard for an adversary to penetrate the closed network and
compromise the software we delivered. I assume that a determined
adversary can penetrate my current defenses relatively easy. There are
so many layers of potential vulnerable firmware and software between the
network plug and my file systems and system memory that any other
assumptions would be rather naive. Still, I try to defend my code, my
privacy and my intellectual property as good as I can. Not running
java-script outside disposable virtual machines is one line of defense.
Not running alien shell scripts or drivers from untrusted sources is
another. It does not make my system safe - but it makes it less likely
at least to be penetrated by the most clueless script-kiddies or
automated bots.

And frankly, it makes no sense to me that printers require special
drivers in order to work. The transport protocols are standardized. The
page description protocols are standardized (or at least well known).
Using proprietary transport or page description protocols seems just
like a waste of development resources and support resources. It's very
hard to make good, optimal implementations of anything slightly complex
(it's just weeks ago another dns bug was found in glibc!). Therefore it
should be best for everyone to refine common code to do such things as
safe and efficient as possible. Not reinventing wheels and doing the
same stupid mistakes over and over again. I really don't understand what
the printer industry (this is not only a problem with Brother) is doing.
May be it boils down to something as simple as the egos at incompetent
product managers.

Jarle

[Jarle Aase]

Den 08. mars 2016 14:02, skrev Brian:
>
>> I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from hardware
>> vendors. I don't think they have quite the same focus on security that I
>> have. Basically, if a network printer require proprietary drivers to work -
>> then it is broken by design. I have used lpd + postscript for around 20
> You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/

My printer does not sign code or certificates. My PC does :)

It would be unfortunate if my printer participated in a bot-net. Or
acted as a gateway for attacks against my PC's. It would be a disaster
if my gpg key or other certs were used to sign male-ware, or if
back-doors was injected in my code base.

> Theoretically, a Generic PCL or PostScript PPD could be used with this
> printer. You'd lose its specific printer options of course.

That's what I am trying to do.

Jarle

[Jarle Aase]

Den 08. mars 2016 15:39, skrev Dutch Ingraham:
> When networked printers "print" without errors and without actually
> printing, it could be your firewall blocking.
>

The printer display says that it is receiving data. Then nothing
happens. So the comm-link is OK.

Jarle

[Ron Leach]

On 08/03/2016 14:56, Jarle Aase wrote:
>
>
> The printer display says that it is receiving data. Then nothing
> happens. So the comm-link is OK.
>

I had a Brother MFC around 6 years ago and remember having difficulty
setting it up. In the end, if I remember correctly, the issue was
that the printer would only print from a queue with a specific name.
It may have been " _binary ", or something.

I found that out on some web site or other, and might have been
Brother's own support site for its Linux driver. I am sorry I have no
more-specific details.

I could understand that Brother might keep using the same codebase for
its Linux support of each new printer, perhaps just tweaking some or
other details and, if the case, then the issue about Brother printers
requiring some specific queue name might still exist.

Have you seen anything about this?

regards, Ron

[Stefan Monnier]

FWIW, I stick to printers whose drivers are right there in Debian.
That saves me work and that lets me put my money where mouth is.
Maybe it's not too late to return your printer?


Stefan

[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 14:35:22 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 01:29:11PM +0000, Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 12:36:56 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 12:02:14PM +0000, Brian wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> > > > the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/
> > >
> > > This is the usual dangerous strawman which leads, at the end, to do
> > > nothing [...]
>
> > I asked a question, one which may give pause for thought and give focus
> > and direction to what is presumably the chief objective - printing with
> > a Brother MFC printer. No argument (strawman or otherwise) was given; no
> > view advanced. No Brother bashing. :)
>
> Perhaps I'm a little dense, but I have a hard time reading your question
> differently than "why you agonize about a non free driver if the whole
> firmware of your printer is non-free"?
>
> But I'm always interested in learning.

Yes, it's the same question - expressed differently. It's still not a
formulated argument and merely expresses curiosity on my part. My
curiosity is satisfied by

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/03/msg00297.html

[Gene Heskett]

I have encountered in past lives, printers that needed a final form feed,
chr$(12) before they would print the buffer.

I do not know if that includes the Brother MF stuff, but I have 2 of
their HL series laser printers here, and both work well using the
driver/wrappers and ppd's suplied by Brother for use with cups and have
worked well for several years now.

They don't call home, and they Just Work(TM).

However a recent nearly 8 hour power outage caused by a 200 yo tree
falling off the mountain in an ice forming storm, onto a main circuit
coming into town, did disclose that having a standby generator with a 5
or 6 second response time can put the color laser at least, into an
unusable state which a printer panel power cycle will not reset. It must
have the power cord pulled for long enough to move it to a different
pluggin in my system here in the coyotes.den. I did have it straight
into the wall, and moved it to a different plug that has a very high
rated, 5 kilojoules IIRC, surge arrester behind the plug. And
amazingly, that longer powerdown, probably over a minute because the
cord was so entangled in the midden heap here (its been collecting for
26 years now :), apparently fixed it.

Your trivia factoid re Brother printers for the day ;-) If all else
fails, do a prolonged, power cord unplugged, reset.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[Gene Heskett]

I've been using Brother printers, laser versions, for several years now,
and as long as I use the name I gave it in the cups configs, they Just
Work(TM). They are, or cups is, case sensitive. The color laser has
both usb, cat5, and wireless capability. Wireless is disabled foir
security reasons, but the other two interfaces are interchangeable by
changing the printers "cups name" as cups thinks its 2 printers, one
with a usb interace and one with a cat5, addressed on my local home
coyote.den network. The network interface is noticeably faster than the
USB as its a USB2.0 max data rate.

[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 16:55:52 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:

> Den 08. mars 2016 14:02, skrev Brian:
> >
> >>I am very skeptical to installing 3rd party deb packages from hardware
> >>vendors. I don't think they have quite the same focus on security that I
> >>have. Basically, if a network printer require proprietary drivers to work -
> >>then it is broken by design. I have used lpd + postscript for around 20
> >
> >You are not bothered about the security of the closed source firmware on
> >the printer but are concerned about a closed source driver on the PC/
>
> My printer does not sign code or certificates. My PC does :)
>
> It would be unfortunate if my printer participated in a bot-net. Or acted as
> a gateway for attacks against my PC's. It would be a disaster if my gpg key
> or other certs were used to sign male-ware, or if back-doors was injected in
> my code base.

Fair enough; we'll go for completely free software.

> >Theoretically, a Generic PCL or PostScript PPD could be used with this
> >printer. You'd lose its specific printer options of course.
>
> That's what I am trying to do.

lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -m drv:///sample.drv/generpcl.ppd

Or

lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -m drv:///sample.drv/generic.ppd

Or delete the two *cupsFilter: lines in the Brother PPD and

lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -P <location_of_modified_PPD>

You'll be looking at error_logs if there are problems.

[Brian]

[Brian]

I managed to delete my own message when I snipped the rest of your post. :(

Queue names are case-insensitive. Please see lpadmin(8).

[Jarle Aase]

Thanks for all the hints and suggestions.

I have still not got the printing to work, but the scanner successfully
sends the scans to my FTP server
(https://sourceforge.net/projects/wfde/). That's kind of cool :) The
scan quality is fine. I actually like this device. I'll see if I get it
to print later this week. Tomorrow my dog is having an operation, and I
have some code to deliver.

jgaa

[deloptes]

Jarle Aase wrote:

> And frankly, it makes no sense to me that printers require special
> drivers in order to work. The transport protocols are standardized. The
> page description protocols are standardized (or at least well known).

This is true, but the internal machinery must be driven somehow - this is
not covered by anything standardized.

> Using proprietary transport or page description protocols seems just
> like a waste of development resources and support resources. It's very
> hard to make good, optimal implementations of anything slightly complex
> (it's just weeks ago another dns bug was found in glibc!). Therefore it
> should be best for everyone to refine common code to do such things as
> safe and efficient as possible. Not reinventing wheels and doing the
> same stupid mistakes over and over again. I really don't understand what
> the printer industry (this is not only a problem with Brother) is doing.
> May be it boils down to something as simple as the egos at incompetent
> product managers.

Well, I also do not understand capitalist way of thinking perfectly well.
While no one is supposed to reinvent the wheel, industry etc works in
secrecy and does not share - thus one is supposed to reinvent the wheel at
the end or share profit (patent rights).
One mentioned obsolescence before. I think the profit driven corporations
are acting nowdays as psychopats.

The printing would work without proprietary software as you pointed out -
that protocol is standard but if you check the specs of the device, you
would find out that it is All-in-one unit - scanner + printer + wireless
print server. All this needs a software - I highlight 2 points from the
specs

- Wireless Mobile Device Printing
- Web Connect Scan to popular cloud services including Google Drive™,
DropboxWeb Connect Scan to popular cloud services including Google Drive™,
Dropbox, Evernote® and Evernote Business® , Microsoft OneNote® and more,
Evernote® and Evernote Business® , Microsoft OneNote® and more

http://www.brother-usa.com/MultiFunction/ModelDetail/4/mfcj5720dw/Overview#.Vt8TanYiQR9

So if you want to just print - buy just printing device and do not moan
about proprietary drivers.

I personally prefer HP business class laser printers - you could opt in
wireless or whatever features - ex:
http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/business-solutions/hp-laserjet-p2035-printer-ce461a-aba

Epson products are also on my table, however people save 100$ to complain
later and drop the product in 5 years. I've been using Epson needle printer
since 1996 and HP LJ 5L since 2001. I hope I can use them another 5-10y.

regards

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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Similar to what Gene mentioned, I've seen printers which want a CTRL-Z
at the end of the job; the output filter would usually take care of
that.

A shot in the dark-and-muddy, but who knows.

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[Felix Miata]

Jarle Aase composed on 2016-03-08 16:56 (UTC+0200):

> The printer display says that it is receiving data. Then nothing happens. So
> the comm-link is OK.

I have a bunch of multiboot machines. Among the installations are Wheezy,
Jessie and Stretch, among various releases of Fedora, Kubuntu, openSUSE,
Mageia, and others.

Last summer, to replace a Canon MF laser (Canon I'll never buy again, printer
or anything else, due to lack of customer support for Linux users) I acquired
first (new):

Brother HL-5470DW

then (new, but very old stock):

Brother MFC-420CN

Both are connected only via Ethernet. On some installations I had no trouble
making the laser print, while on others I never did figure it out. Whether
any Jessie was among those successful I don't remember, and I think I didn't
even try with Stretch. IIRC, it was only in the most recent releases using
the latest CUPS versions that I had trouble, but I've forgotten all details.
As a result of the trouble I had, I've never even tried to configure the
inkjet as a printer. I've used it only as a copier so far. It's nuts. If out
of color ink it refuses to print anything (according to Brother, that's
normal, and really stupid), even when I want black only, and it won't print
black at all anyway (it did when I got it, but quit long before the first ink
cartridge ran out).
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 20:28:18 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 08:34:56PM +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:
> > Thanks for all the hints and suggestions.
> >
> > I have still not got the printing to work, but the scanner
> > successfully sends the scans to my FTP server
> > (https://sourceforge.net/projects/wfde/). That's kind of cool :) The
> > scan quality is fine. I actually like this device. I'll see if I get
> > it to print later this week. Tomorrow my dog is having an operation,
> > and I have some code to deliver.
>
> Similar to what Gene mentioned, I've seen printers which want a CTRL-Z
> at the end of the job; the output filter would usually take care of
> that.

Which output filter are you referring to? Take note: the OP is adamant
about not using the Brother lpr filter.

> A shot in the dark-and-muddy, but who knows.

Indeed.

[Brian]

Scanning using the Brother closed source driver? Pragmatism in action.
Some security risks are worth taking, :)

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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There's always an output filter in the chain. How else do you think
the info in the ppd gets injected into the print job (given a PS
printer)? Where do you think ghostscript is doing its magic converting
the pdf into PCL or whatever exotic language the printer listens
to?

> > A shot in the dark-and-muddy, but who knows.
>
> Indeed.

Printers are dark and muddy, might I remind.

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[Brian]

On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 17:01:06 +0000, Brian wrote:

> lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -m drv:///sample.drv/generpcl.ppd
>
> Or
>
> lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -m drv:///sample.drv/generic.ppd
>
> Or delete the two *cupsFilter: lines in the Brother PPD and
>
> lpadmin -p myprinter -v socket://<printer_IP:9100> -E -o printer-is-shared -P <location_of_modified_PPD>

Forget completely and utterly about this advice. It has zero chance of
ever working.

In another mail Jarle Aase said:

> I think this printer supports both pcl and postscript.

Faint alarm bells sounded in my head - inkjet, inkjet, inkjet. I ignored
the warning; after all he was surely in possession of a manual and would
know the printer capabilities.

The CUPS filter chain produces a file to be sent to the printer which is
identified as "data", not PostScript or PCL. Installing the two Brother
.deb files (a five minute job) seems to be the only way for printing to
take place.

> You'll be looking at error_logs if there are problems.

It adds substance to an otherwise useless piece of information like "I
cannot print".

[Jarle Aase]

Den 09. mars 2016 14:27, skrev Brian:
> In another mail Jarle Aase said: > I think this printer supports both
> pcl and postscript. Faint alarm bells sounded in my head - inkjet,
> inkjet, inkjet. I ignored the warning; after all he was surely in
> possession of a manual and would know the printer capabilities. The
> CUPS filter chain produces a file to be sent to the printer which is
> identified as "data", not PostScript or PCL. Installing the two
> Brother .deb files (a five minute job) seems to be the only way for
> printing to take place.

My plan is to install the Brother drivers in a virtual machine. When
that works, I can use wireshark to see what's actually being sent to the
printer, and decide if I want to do something to make it work on the
"real" machine.

Jarle

[Brian]

On Wed 09 Mar 2016 at 08:28:42 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 08:41:55PM +0000, Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 08 Mar 2016 at 20:28:18 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >
> > > Similar to what Gene mentioned, I've seen printers which want a CTRL-Z
> > > at the end of the job; the output filter would usually take care of
> > > that.
> >
> > Which output filter are you referring to? Take note: the OP is adamant
> > about not using the Brother lpr filter.
>
> There's always an output filter in the chain. How else do you think
> the info in the ppd gets injected into the print job (given a PS
> printer)? Where do you think ghostscript is doing its magic converting
> the pdf into PCL or whatever exotic language the printer listens
> to?

There is a minimum of two filters in a CUPS filtering chain. The filter
takes an input and produces an output for the next filter. If we have
more filters each of them has an output. Please will the real output
filter stand up. :)

If by "output filter" you mean the last filter in the chain it would
have reduced my curiosity if it had been named. I thought my question
implied that; but perhaps not.

By the way, even non-Postscript printers have PPD options injected into
the printing stream. (Also, the last filter in a chain is always the
backend filter).

[Brian]

Did you go through all this to set up scanning on the device? Of course
you didn't.

So why not do the same with printing and not make a song and a dance
about it.

[deloptes]

You must have a lot of time boy, you must be lucky!

Most of us take the shortest path possible.

regards

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 08:18:01PM +0100, deloptes wrote:

[...]

> You must have a lot of time boy, you must be lucky!
>
> Most of us take the shortest path possible.

If all did like that you wouldn't have Debian (this goes to Brian too).

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[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 08:18:01PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> You must have a lot of time boy, you must be lucky!
>>
>> Most of us take the shortest path possible.
>
> If all did like that you wouldn't have Debian (this goes to Brian too).

No it is pragmatics!
And a lot of people waste time in vain - including me in the past.

In the present situation we do not know what is the context and why OP is
trying to do it this way.
Some concerns regarding binaries was raised - but why in first place you by
Brother device? And in this context - Do you think Linux is secure enough?

Anyway - everyone is free to do what s/he wants. Some people need more time
to get smarter. For me it was 32y.

regards

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:12:57AM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 08:18:01PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> You must have a lot of time boy, you must be lucky!
> >>
> >> Most of us take the shortest path possible.
> >
> > If all did like that you wouldn't have Debian (this goes to Brian too).
>
> No it is pragmatics!

Call it whatever you like. I'm out of this discussion.

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[Brian]

On Wed 09 Mar 2016 at 15:16:20 +0200, Jarle Aase wrote:

> My plan is to install the Brother drivers in a virtual machine. When that
> works, I can use wireshark to see what's actually being sent to the printer,
> and decide if I want to do something to make it work on the "real" machine.

Let's take a step back and examine the issue.

1. You have a Brother printer which uses a non-free driver. Initially
you took a wrong step and could not print. Knowing now that two .debs
need to be installed the least you could do is install them. I'd
suggest using the USB connection to avoid having to complicate
matters with having to think about network connections. The .debs are
set up to use a USB connection anyway. The .debs can be purged after
printing has been tested to work with them.

Can you print now?

2. You are very uneasy about having a proprietary driver for printing on
your machine, so are seeking a way not to use it and have only standard
Debian/Linux drivers. (For unknown reasons you have no such problem
with a proprietary driver for scanning. That seems a little perverse
but we'll go along with).

3. AirPrint on the printer has been mentioned a couple of times but has
not resulted in any reaction from you. Is there some reason you would
not want to use the facility? It is the only way to avoid having a
proprietary driver on your machine and be able to print.

4. You can examine the printer's Bonjour broadcasts with avahi-browse;
it is in the avahi-utils package and the command to use is

avahi-browse -art

It would be useful for us to see what you see so please would you do

avahi-browse -art > discovered

and attach a gzipped discovered to your next mail here. We can then
go from there.

[jdd]

Le 11/03/2016 14:00, Brian a écrit :

> 2. You are very uneasy about having a proprietary driver for printing on
> your machine, so are seeking a way not to use it and have only standard
> Debian/Linux drivers.

this printer seems to be recent and flexible. Chance is he may be a pdf
printer.

Did you try to send him a pdf without any filter? or try printing a pdf
from a ssd card?

sorry if it was already proposed, I couldn't read all the thread

jdd

[Hans]

Hi Brian.

as far as I know you need the packages from the Brother site. As soon you got
them installed, start a browser and go to http://localhost:631

Then there should a gui start, where you can configure your printer.

Good luck!

Hans

[Lisi Reisz]

I have been reading this thread a bit at a time. I am bemused. Why, if you
want life simple, and Free, etc., go for an AIO, which are notoriously
troublesome? Why not go for a simple Brother laser printer? (If you want
Brother.)

Lisi

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 11:14:34 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:12:57AM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> > to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 08:18:01PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >> You must have a lot of time boy, you must be lucky!
> > >>
> > >> Most of us take the shortest path possible.
> > >
> > > If all did like that you wouldn't have Debian (this goes to Brian too).
> >
> > No it is pragmatics!
>
> Call it whatever you like. I'm out of this discussion.

Are you taking your ball with you? :)

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 15:24:07 +0100, jdd wrote:

> Le 11/03/2016 14:00, Brian a écrit :
>
> >2. You are very uneasy about having a proprietary driver for printing on
> > your machine, so are seeking a way not to use it and have only standard
> > Debian/Linux drivers.
>
> this printer seems to be recent and flexible. Chance is he may be a pdf
> printer.
>
> Did you try to send him a pdf without any filter? or try printing a pdf from
> a ssd card?

The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to). Whether the printer
handles direct PDF printing is questionable. But it's a decent idea to
try.

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 15:30:13 +0100, Hans wrote:

> as far as I know you need the packages from the Brother site. As soon you got
> them installed, start a browser and go to http://localhost:631
>
> Then there should a gui start, where you can configure your printer.

This is exactly what the OP has said he wants to avoid doing.

[David Wright]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 17:48:01 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 15:24:07 +0100, jdd wrote:
>
> > Le 11/03/2016 14:00, Brian a écrit :
> >
> > >2. You are very uneasy about having a proprietary driver for printing on
> > > your machine, so are seeking a way not to use it and have only standard
> > > Debian/Linux drivers.
> >
> > this printer seems to be recent and flexible. Chance is he may be a pdf
> > printer.
> >
> > Did you try to send him a pdf without any filter? or try printing a pdf from
> > a ssd card?
>
> The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to).

I don't understand this statement. If a printer doesn't have a PS
interpreter (or emulation thereof), are you saying that it acquires
one by virtue of supporting AirPrint?

> Whether the printer
> handles direct PDF printing is questionable. But it's a decent idea to
> try.

It would seem odd to support PDF printing and be silent on the matter
in the printer's literature, eg www.printerbase.co.uk/spec/pdf/brother-mfcj5720dw.pdf
http://support.brother.com/g/b/spec.aspx?c=eu_ot&lang=en&prod=mfcj5720dw_us_eu_as

Cheers,
David.

[jdd]

Le 11/03/2016 19:39, David Wright a écrit :

> It would seem odd to support PDF printing and be silent on the matter
> in the printer's literature, eg www.printerbase.co.uk/spec/pdf/brother-mfcj5720dw.pdf

says

Supporting:

JPEG, BMP, PDF, TIFF, PNG


I read "PDF".

It seems than most printers now support natively pdf to be able to print
from card (without any interface) when they where supporting ps before.

but there are so many versions...

anyway if one wants to have full support, better write on the gutenprint
mailing list, where people do really know what a printer is (much better
than me)

jdd

[David Wright]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 20:11:51 (+0100), jdd wrote:
> Le 11/03/2016 19:39, David Wright a écrit :
>
> >It would seem odd to support PDF printing and be silent on the matter
> >in the printer's literature, eg www.printerbase.co.uk/spec/pdf/brother-mfcj5720dw.pdf
>
> says
>
> Supporting:
>
> JPEG, BMP, PDF, TIFF, PNG
>
>
> I read "PDF".

Yes, I too can read four strings "PDF". On page two they are under the
heading "Colour Scanner". On page three, they are (ambiguously) under
the section "PhotoCapture Centre" / "Scan to card". Lots of cheap
all-in-one scanners will do this. Their output files appear to be a
few lines of PDF wrapping an image, viz.

%PDF-1.3
% [4 non-ASCII chars snipped]
3 0 obj
<< /Type /XObject
/Subtype /Image
/Width 2480
/Height 3504
/BitsPerComponent 1
/Length 54844
/ColorSpace /DeviceGray
/Filter /CCITTFaxDecode
/DecodeParms
<< /K -1 /Rows 3504 /Columns 2480 /BlackIs1 false >>
>>
stream

> It seems than most printers now support natively pdf to be able to
> print from card (without any interface) when they where supporting
> ps before.

You must live in a different price bracket from me. When I worked in
a university, all the (Apple) laser printers had genuine PS
interpreters inside. Nothing I've ever owned has. They all print
_JPEGs_ directly because that's what ordinary people want to print:
photographs, not office documents.

The printers which I've used since, those that can print raw PDF files,
can do that directly from a stick; they take paper from half a dozen
trays and put the output in little collated stacks. They also stand
on the floor!

Cheers,
David.

[Gene Heskett]

As a happy user of two Brother printers, using Brothers drivers, the OP
should be well aware that he will spend weeks of time poking at just one
printer, to come up with a driver that does half of what the Brother
driver can do, and quite likely poorer, and slower than the Brother
driver. Principles I guess are nice when you step into the voting booth,
but not when following them on nothing more than a rumor he heard from
somebody with a bad taste for Brother, makes zero sense. The ones I am
using Just Work(TM).

I am of the opinion that this thread has run its coarse as he has refused
to do the sensible thing here, and the refusal was stated up front.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[Gene Heskett]

And at this point, that is the best possible advice, those are the guys
that KNOW about printers.

[Gene Heskett]

Yup, that they do. They also cost around 35,000 USD to put it on YOUR
floor. And the sw in the $35,000 Minolta dies on about page 102 when
trying to print a pdf book. And Minolta's factory techs couldn't fix
it, so I wound up using a pdf maker, feeding it 100 pages at a time, and
fed that to the Minolta. Heck of a way to run a train.

To compare, running the Brother drivers into an HL-3170CDW here, a low
end color laser I bought for something over $400 USD 3 years ago, I have
fed it several pdf's over 500 pages, biggest pdf was 674 pages, which it
printed in duplex mode slowly because turning the paper over takes
longer than print one side, and the only problem was a couple of paper
jams. And guess what? When it jams, and you clear the jam, it reprints
both sides of the damaged sheet without any prompting. What more could
I ask? Brighter colors on normal $8 a ream paper. But thats it.

[jdd]

Le 11/03/2016 21:28, David Wright a écrit :

> You must live in a different price bracket from me.

nope. I had at least two HP5M for free ten years ago... they died
recently. There are ps compatible printer for cheap for years now.

for pdf, I only have seen this on news papers, but the subject computer
being airprint compatible must have some inside device, and it's not cheap.

I spoke of gutenprint because I have a Canon photo thermal printer that
prints jpeg from cards, but not from computer (!), so need a driver. It
was not at this time available on linux, but gutenprint mailing list
user asked me to make some tests and could with this give me a solution.

the people there knows incredibly well the printers :-)

and, by the way, if we use proprietary hardware, and proprietary
BIOS/UEFI, why not proprietary drivers...

jdd

[to...@tuxteam.de]

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On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 05:02:49PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> Yup, that they do. They also cost around 35,000 USD to put it on YOUR

Now you're exaggerating. We have an (oldish) Brother "laser" networked
printer which was quite affordable and understands pretty well PS (well,
officially it's "brotherscript" -- really!) but it works nicely either
from the whole CUPS gorilla or from a more traditional lprng installation.

No blobs, no frills. Only this stupid 99.9% compatible PS ripoff is
sometimes annoying, I guess if they'd left the (official or inofficial)
copy of Ghostscript just alone instead of tweaking it, it'd be better.

It is, fwiw a Brother HL 5170DN. Would I recommend it? Well, the
mechanical quality is what you'd expect for the price. It tends to
"decorate" its first pages with some creases. It is very low on
mem, and its RIP isn't really fast. But it has done its job for
well over seven years now.

So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.

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[jdd]

Le 12/03/2016 08:50, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :

> So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> blobs.

no, not for me.

there are two parts: having a hardware that just works, and for this
Brother is better than many other makes, and getting free of privative
software, which is better but harder.

By the way it's a bit of a dead way: even RMS do not ask for free
BIOS... when he could (there is work on the subject).

I remember the time where every printer was sold with a manual stating
what codes was giving what.

So working toward a free driver is a good idea, but this have to be done
with knowledgeable people, probably (no offense!) not to be found here
but in gutenprint mailing list

http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/

they list some brother mfc printers, so may be yours is not so far from
support, if you help

Brother MFC-6550MC brother-mfc-6550mc Brother-MFC-6550MC
Brother MFC-8300 brother-mfc-8300 Brother-MFC-8300
Brother MFC-9500 brother-mfc-9500 Brother-MFC-9500
Brother MFC-9600 brother-mfc-9600 Brother-MFC-9600

(on the printer list, the names are not by alphabetic order)

ask them (and report here, please :-)

thanks
jdd

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 12:39:58 -0600, David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 17:48:01 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> >
> > The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to).
>
> I don't understand this statement. If a printer doesn't have a PS
> interpreter (or emulation thereof), are you saying that it acquires
> one by virtue of supporting AirPrint?

No. (I think you meant PDF).

The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document
sent to an Airprint capable printer is converted to BUL (the Brother
Unknown Language) as it would be if it was processed on a workstation by
CUPS.

Note that this is a conversion, not an interpretation. An interpreter
produces a raster image and this happens later when the RIP deals with
BUL.

> > Whether the printer
> > handles direct PDF printing is questionable. But it's a decent idea to
> > try.
>
> It would seem odd to support PDF printing and be silent on the matter
> in the printer's literature, eg www.printerbase.co.uk/spec/pdf/brother-mfcj5720dw.pdf
> http://support.brother.com/g/b/spec.aspx?c=eu_ot&lang=en&prod=mfcj5720dw_us_eu_as

The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
interpreter. Hence the silence.

[jdd]

Le 12/03/2016 10:56, Brian a écrit :

> The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document

> The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
> interpreter. Hence the silence.
>

it have one for airprint, but may be this one is only available for
aiprint, not for usb (ridiculous, I know, but we see such thing often)

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/AirPrint

any printer (any hardware?) needs software to make something, be it on
rom (eprom or flash memory) or driver (the infamous "windows printers").

What the more near to freedom?? no idea.

jdd

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 02:50:49 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 05:02:49PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Yup, that they do. They also cost around 35,000 USD to put it on
> > YOUR
>
> Now you're exaggerating.

No I am not. We (the tv station where I spent my last 18 working year at
as the Chief Engineer) needed another copier/printer about 15 years back
as we were overwhelming the $17,000 model, people standing around
waiting their turn, and the local office supply business sold us a
Minolta that could, if you fed it the right supplies, even bind a book
for you, and yes it was $35k at the time, plus of course an annual
maintenance contract that was for same day service. It had everything
but a coffee spigot on it.

> We have an (oldish) Brother "laser" networked
> printer which was quite affordable and understands pretty well PS
> (well, officially it's "brotherscript" -- really!) but it works nicely
> either from the whole CUPS gorilla or from a more traditional lprng
> installation.
>
> No blobs, no frills. Only this stupid 99.9% compatible PS ripoff is
> sometimes annoying, I guess if they'd left the (official or
> inofficial) copy of Ghostscript just alone instead of tweaking it,
> it'd be better.
>
> It is, fwiw a Brother HL 5170DN. Would I recommend it? Well, the
> mechanical quality is what you'd expect for the price. It tends to
> "decorate" its first pages with some creases. It is very low on
> mem, and its RIP isn't really fast. But it has done its job for
> well over seven years now.

Much the same can be said for the HL3170CDW I have, its an entry level
color laser. Beginning to have some smudge and streak troubles, but it
has nearly 4000 pages thru it. And I just found it needs a full, pull
the line cord out, powerdown reset to restore normal operation, a panel
switch reboot doesn't cut it. It also needs a firmware update, but they
have about 5 of them, each customised for the windows machine it takes
to run the updater. But to find a winderz machine to run the updater
isn't possible here as there aren't any here. 100% linux here. I've not
tried our dfu utilities to see if that could work, and I'm not sure I
could strip out the actual update from their windows packages.

> So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.

I very faintly recall my teen years, we were just finished with fighting
WW=II then.

> -- t

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 12:15:38 +0100, jdd wrote:

> Le 12/03/2016 10:56, Brian a écrit :
>
> >The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document
>
> >The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
> >interpreter. Hence the silence.
>
> it have one for airprint, but may be this one is only available for aiprint,
> not for usb (ridiculous, I know, but we see such thing often)

It has been said in this thread that "Printers are dark and muddy";
there is no need to muddy their operation further, as is done here.

With a CUPS installation the brother_lpdwrapper_mfcj5720dw filter
converts PDF into BUL and sends the data to a RIP (an interpreter)
on the printer. AirPrint uses exactly the same printer as CUPS but
the conversion done by brother_lpdwrapper_mfcj5720dw has to be on
the printer in firmware. Then the RIP takes over. The RIP is not
converting PDF to raster format. There is no PDF interpreter for
AirPrint to use.

> http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/AirPrint

Listing 2 on that page isn't needed with Debian CUPS.

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.

And I left time wasting in my teens.

It is not clear why OP would not install the vendor deb files. If s/he wants
to gain security, he could do it in a different way and still use the
printer. Example old Raspberry costs ~30-40$ and voila you have your
dedicated printer with no network.

Never mind - I wish him/her luck and perhaps s/he will update us later on
the progress and findings.

IMO it is not likely that one adds a spy software on such low cost device -
what for? If you want to print confidentail information - there are other
types of printers and setups you could do so.

Doing some more usable things, could be more beneficial to him/her. Anyway
this is a personal choice, but the effort seems silly, so we (I think I am
not the only one) have spoken and warned him/her.

regards

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 07:50:49 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.

And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants to use
binary blobs?? I was nearly lynched for wanting to use something from the
non-free repository.

Why can't we all live and let live? And all I have seen in this thread is
people not comprehending. No-one being unpleasant and castigating.

I have a ball if anyone would like it. ;-)

Lisi

[jdd]

Le 12/03/2016 13:22, Brian a écrit :

> on the printer. AirPrint uses exactly the same printer as CUPS but
> the conversion done by brother_lpdwrapper_mfcj5720dw has to be on
> the printer in firmware. Then the RIP takes over. The RIP is not
> converting PDF to raster format. There is no PDF interpreter for
> AirPrint to use.

I was understanding than one have to send pdf to airprint, but this
article is all what I know of it

jdd

[Brian]

AirPrint supports PDF, JPEG and URF as PDLs. URF is obligatory. PDF is
the PDL of choice if the device supports it.

So, you do not *have* to send PDF to Airprint but is very common for
that to happen.

[Andrew McGlashan]

On 12/03/2016 11:32 PM, deloptes wrote:
> IMO it is not likely that one adds a spy software on such low cost device -
> what for? If you want to print confidentail information - there are other
> types of printers and setups you could do so.

Well, it doesn't need to have it's own /spyware/ .... it might be badly
setup and perhaps be taken over by something smarter. This whole IoT is
very dangerous -- talk of putting them all on their own network is not
enough as each can attack each other and any of them can try to
compromise the /other/ network via jumping on to the network it is not
supposed to know about.

And yes, that might be extreme, but people are too trusting of junk that
is polluting this world just to make another dollar quickly; junk that
isn't secure to start with and too cheap to ever consider that to change.

A.

[Renaud OLGIATI]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000
Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com> wrote:

> And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants to use
> binary blobs??

Because, it seems, for some people "Linux is about freedom of choice" means "you are free to accept MY choices, and no other".

Cheers,

Ron.
--
Let us consider that arbitrary power has seldom
or never been introduced into any country at once
It must be introduced by slow degrees,
and as it were step by step,
lest the people see its approach.
---Lord Chesterfield

-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 08:50:49 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.

Don't you think there has been a very positive aspect to this thread?
Not just for Jarle Aase's immediate needs but also for present and
future readers of it.

Misconceptions have been cleared up, the OP knows now why he couldn't
print and various byways have been explored. Even the binary blob issue
was treated with robust respect. Of course, people are entitled to
persue freeness and Jarl Aase did explain his position and had it
acknowledged. Others couldn't quite accept why someone should want to
turn down an easy route to printing with proprietary software. That's
all part of life's rich pattern.

Printing was, of course, the objective. There is a solution on the table
which fits the desire for freeness. Jarl Aase appears to be the only
participant in this thread who has access to an AirPrint printer.
Considering the interest which has been shown in his problem some
feedback would be useful to have. I hope we haven't lost another ball. :)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 18:22:11 Brian wrote:
> It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
>
> > vegetables or not?".

Did anyone ever really claim that snails are vegetables??? I find that hard
to believe!

Lisi

[Gene Heskett]

I've been in that box, watching them tie knots on ropes too. But at the
end of the day, I only outlaw one driver blob, the nvidia. It locks out
the IRQ's for extended periods of time and can, because of that, do
serious damage to parts being CNC machined. The nouveau driver doesn't
resort to that, and works fine, for what I want to do. So for me, the
nvidia driver and its being married to a specific kernel, causes way
more problems than it solves.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 08:21:14 Renaud OLGIATI wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000
>
> Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants
> > to use binary blobs??
>
> Because, it seems, for some people "Linux is about freedom of choice"
> means "you are free to accept MY choices, and no other".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ron.

Give this man a bigger nail, he hits this one very well indeed. :)

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 13:22:11 Brian wrote:

> On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 08:50:49 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> > this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> > fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> > blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> > vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.
>
> Don't you think there has been a very positive aspect to this thread?
> Not just for Jarle Aase's immediate needs but also for present and
> future readers of it.
>
> Misconceptions have been cleared up, the OP knows now why he couldn't
> print and various byways have been explored. Even the binary blob
> issue was treated with robust respect. Of course, people are entitled
> to persue freeness and Jarl Aase did explain his position and had it
> acknowledged. Others couldn't quite accept why someone should want to
> turn down an easy route to printing with proprietary software. That's
> all part of life's rich pattern.
>
> Printing was, of course, the objective. There is a solution on the
> table which fits the desire for freeness. Jarl Aase appears to be the
> only participant in this thread who has access to an AirPrint printer.

My Brother HL3170CDW has a wireless interface, but no clue as to its
usability with airprint, mainly because I have it disabled in its own
menu's and have not explored that route to moving data.

And yes, my router with a DD-WRT reflash CAN do WLAN, but enabling that
gives the whole world driveby access to my home 4 or 5 machine network
unless I setup a different network just for the printer. So I have,
having been attacked via that path, for security reasons, disabled ALL
the WLAN style wireless. Cat5E all over the place though.

One piece, swinging in the wind between the house and a small shop
building nominally 40 feet away with 2 or 3 computers running smallish
CNC controlled machines in it, and has been swinging in the wind for a
decade & change now, still works fine right now. And I've no clue why,
it stood up to a measured 112mph wind in 2010 that cost me 4 trees and
most of my fencing and part of the roof, siding and gutters of this
house. But the cat5 survived.

> Considering the interest which has been shown in his problem some
> feedback would be useful to have. I hope we haven't lost another ball.
> :)

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 13:47:06 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Saturday 12 March 2016 08:21:14 Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000
> >
> > Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants
> > > to use binary blobs??
> >
> > Because, it seems, for some people "Linux is about freedom of choice"
> > means "you are free to accept MY choices, and no other".
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Ron.
>
> Give this man a bigger nail, he hits this one very well indeed. :)

A big spoon for stirring and continuing to spread this view would be
more suitable. :)

Debian is not about freedom of choice. Can this be seen in the Social
Contract?

[Gene Heskett]

Sounds like somebody sick of beans for their vegan diets protein.

One of the prices one pays for being a vegan I guess. Me, I have one of
those PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) T Shirts. Shrug. :)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 19:13:20 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 12 March 2016 18:22:11 Brian wrote:
> > > It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> > >
> > > > vegetables or not?".

Sorry, Brian. Of course you didn't say that. It is one of the snags of KMail
that it sometimes misattributes the quote - and I don't always remember to
check. :-(

Lisi

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 14:18:25 Brian wrote:

> On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 13:47:06 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 12 March 2016 08:21:14 Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > > On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000
> > >
> > > Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who
> > > > wants to use binary blobs??
> > >
> > > Because, it seems, for some people "Linux is about freedom of
> > > choice" means "you are free to accept MY choices, and no other".
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Ron.
> >
> > Give this man a bigger nail, he hits this one very well indeed. :)
>
> A big spoon for stirring and continuing to spread this view would be
> more suitable. :)

I do believe you are correct, some aplause needed here.

>
> Debian is not about freedom of choice. Can this be seen in the Social
> Contract?

DNK :( Haven't read it recently enough.

[Renaud OLGIATI]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 19:18:25 +0000
Brian <ad...@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants
> > > > to use binary blobs??

> > > Because, it seems, for some people "Linux is about freedom of choice"
> > > means "you are free to accept MY choices, and no other".

> > Give this man a bigger nail, he hits this one very well indeed. :)

> A big spoon for stirring and continuing to spread this view would be
> more suitable. :)
>
> Debian is not about freedom of choice. Can this be seen in the Social
> Contract?

You are the one stirring thing: I never mentioned Debian; only Linux...

Cheers,

Ron.
--
Never get into an argument with someone who buys ink by the barrel.

-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 14:08:58 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:

> My Brother HL3170CDW has a wireless interface, but no clue as to its
> usability with airprint, mainly because I have it disabled in its own
> menu's and have not explored that route to moving data.

The existence of a wireless interface on a printer has no bearing on
whether it supports AirPrint. Many printers have wireless interfaces
and do not support AirPrint.

In addition, an AirPrint printer does not need wireless capability on
it; it is not a requirement. The only requirement is for the printer
to broadcast mDNS.

You can see what your printer does by using the novel idea of looking
at its manual. Guess what? :)

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201311

You are the only person in this thread to own up to having an AirPrint
Brother printer. That places you in an ideal position to test the ideas
proposed in this thread and assist the OP.

I'm interested in what

avahi-browse -art > discovered

gives.

Would you please post the output here? A minimum of a Jessie install is
needed for something useful.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 12 March 2016 15:01:58 Brian wrote:

> On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 14:08:58 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > My Brother HL3170CDW has a wireless interface, but no clue as to its
> > usability with airprint, mainly because I have it disabled in its
> > own menu's and have not explored that route to moving data.
>
> The existence of a wireless interface on a printer has no bearing on
> whether it supports AirPrint. Many printers have wireless interfaces
> and do not support AirPrint.
>
> In addition, an AirPrint printer does not need wireless capability on
> it; it is not a requirement. The only requirement is for the printer
> to broadcast mDNS.
>
> You can see what your printer does by using the novel idea of looking
> at its manual. Guess what? :)
>

Never seen it, its an exra cost thing only available to servicing dealers
I believe.

> https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201311
>
> You are the only person in this thread to own up to having an AirPrint
> Brother printer. That places you in an ideal position to test the
> ideas proposed in this thread and assist the OP.

I didn't claim AirPrint, only that it could have a wlan connection IF it
was enabled, which it isn't.

> I'm interested in what
>
> avahi-browse -art > discovered
>
> gives.
>
> Would you please post the output here? A minimum of a Jessie install
> is needed for something useful.

I'm still on wheezy, but that output is likely north of 200k. It finds
an ipv6 address for a lot of stuff here, but ipv6 is disabled. Or is in
the configs I use.

Probably 2 dozen stanza's of stuff on this printer, another dozen or so
on a $110 B&W laser in the basement, and at least that many for an Epson
NX515 whose printer died from clogged nozzles less than a month after I
bought it, but its scanner works well. How avahi found it when its not
even turned on is beyond me unless turning it off is not a full
powerdown, or the USB cable is powering its interface. Not to mention
at least 50 other devices each a separate listing according to the
protocol avahi queries I guess. Way too big to post to a mailing list
w/o an hours editing to trim it down to just this one printer. All the
printers are shared to 4 other machines, and avahi finds it connected to
them all, with every protocol in its basket. So I'm not going to inflict
the list with that much trash data.

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 17:01:36 -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 19:18:25 +0000
> Brian <ad...@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > A big spoon for stirring and continuing to spread this view would be
> > more suitable. :)
> >
> > Debian is not about freedom of choice. Can this be seen in the Social
> > Contract?
>
> You are the one stirring thing: I never mentioned Debian; only Linux...

We are both on a Debian mailing list. It takes two to tango.

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 15:27:00 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Saturday 12 March 2016 15:01:58 Brian wrote:
>
> > On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 14:08:58 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > My Brother HL3170CDW has a wireless interface, but no clue as to its
> > > usability with airprint, mainly because I have it disabled in its
> > > own menu's and have not explored that route to moving data.
> >
> > The existence of a wireless interface on a printer has no bearing on
> > whether it supports AirPrint. Many printers have wireless interfaces
> > and do not support AirPrint.
> >
> > In addition, an AirPrint printer does not need wireless capability on
> > it; it is not a requirement. The only requirement is for the printer
> > to broadcast mDNS.
> >
> > You can see what your printer does by using the novel idea of looking
> > at its manual. Guess what? :)
> >
> Never seen it, its an exra cost thing only available to servicing dealers
> I believe.

Specifications for your printer are not avaialable online? Brother do
not tell you what the printer does? if you cannot be bothered to look,
why should I. Is there an unbelieving emoticon?

> > https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201311
> >
> > You are the only person in this thread to own up to having an AirPrint
> > Brother printer. That places you in an ideal position to test the
> > ideas proposed in this thread and assist the OP.
>
> I didn't claim AirPrint, only that it could have a wlan connection IF it
> was enabled, which it isn't.

I understood that.

But you can claim to have an Airport printer!

> > I'm interested in what
> >
> > avahi-browse -art > discovered
> >
> > gives.
> >
> > Would you please post the output here? A minimum of a Jessie install
> > is needed for something useful.
>

> I'm still on wheezy, ....

Nothing useful to be gained from the output then.

[David Wright]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 08:44:48 (+0100), jdd wrote:
> Le 11/03/2016 21:28, David Wright a écrit :
>
> >You must live in a different price bracket from me.
>
> nope. I had at least two HP5M for free ten years ago... they died
> recently.

Well, let's assume that most people buy their equipment rather than
being given it for free.

The HP5M is solely a printer which is fine as far as it goes, but now
I need to buy a scanner, and quite possibly a fax machine, as well.
AFAICT I'd have to use it through a parallel (or serial?) interface.
This laptop has neither. You can network it with 10Base-T for a price,
but no USB connection.

I can see a refurbished one on the web for $340 (if that's the right
model) which is far more than a new AiO.

> There are ps compatible printer for cheap for years now.

So you say, but I never seem to be able to find them in the shops.
And take a typical web site. Here are the categories to refine one's
search. Are people interested in whether a printer supports PDF directly?
No:

• NARROW BY: clear all
• 0 Type of Printer + - clear
□ [ ] All-in-One (23)
□ [ ] Single-Function (14)
□ [ ] Wide/Large Format (8)
• 0 Output Type + - clear
□ [ ] Black & White (12)
□ [ ] Color (33)
• 0 Print Technology + - clear
□ [ ] Inkjet (5)
□ [ ] Laser (39)
• 0 Duplex Printing + - clear
□ [ ] Automatic (31)
□ [ ] Manual (13)
• 0 Wireless Ready + - clear
□ [ ] Wired (10)
□ [ ] Wireless (23)
□ [ ] Wireless Optional (5)
• 0 Printer Connectivity + - clear
□ [ ] USB & Network Ready (19)
□ [ ] USB & Wireless (3)
□ [ ] USB, Wireless, Network Ready (21)
• 0 B&W PPM + - clear
[...]
• 0 Brand + - clear
[...]
• 0 Printer Use + - clear
□ [ ] Home & Photo (4)
□ [ ] Small Business (25)
• 0 Department + - clear
□ [ ] Printers (54)
□ [ ] Laser Printers (8)
[...]
• 0 Photo Capable + - clear
□ [ ] Not Photo (23)
□ [ ] Photo (21)
• 0 Rating + - clear
[...]
• 0 Deals + - clear
□ [ ] On Promotion (21)
• 0 Environmental + - clear
□ [ ] Eco certified (50)
□ [ ] Eco conscious (5)
□ [ ] Recycled (10)
• 0 ShopRunner + - clear
□ [ ] ShopRunner Eligible (50)
• 0 Printer Condition + - clear
□ [ ] New (41)
□ [ ] Refurbished (4)
• 0 Supertank + - clear
□ [ ] Not Supertank (44)
• 0 Mobile Capability + - clear
□ [ ] No (26)
□ [ ] Yes (17)
• 0 Number of Users + - clear
[...]
• 0 Auto Restock + - clear
□ [ ] Auto Restock Eligible (31)
• 0 Price + - clear
[...]

So the specs of each printer have to be found and examined.
Can you give me a few current examples of the species?

> for pdf, I only have seen this on news papers, but the subject
> computer being airprint compatible must have some inside device, and
> it's not cheap.

Ditto. Brian has tried to explain, but I don't completely follow his
explanation. Not being at the cutting edge of mobile phone technology,
I don't have any experience of trying to use it, even if I had an
AirPrint-supporting printer.

> I spoke of gutenprint because I have a Canon photo thermal printer
> that prints jpeg from cards,

This is what's common. Not PDFs. And many take a variety of
stick/cards. Hardly surprising: that's what's inside the
cameras. Thank goodness one's not limited to TWAIN. Ugh.

> but not from computer (!), so need a
> driver. It was not at this time available on linux, but gutenprint
> mailing list user asked me to make some tests and could with this
> give me a solution.
>
> the people there knows incredibly well the printers :-)

I'm sure they do. (However, they don't support my printer but luckily,
HP does.) But I don't understand the relationship between linux
printing and gutenprint. Actually I don't know much at all about
printing any more. I used to in the days of dot-matrix, having
happily written character definitions and code to rasterise and
print graphics.

Cheers,
David.

[David Wright]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 09:56:37 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 12:39:58 -0600, David Wright wrote:
>
> > On Fri 11 Mar 2016 at 17:48:01 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> > >
> > > The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to).
> >
> > I don't understand this statement. If a printer doesn't have a PS
> > interpreter (or emulation thereof), are you saying that it acquires
> > one by virtue of supporting AirPrint?
>
> No. (I think you meant PDF).

I guess so. Using your terminology below, "PDF converter" is ok with me.

> The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document
> sent to an Airprint capable printer is converted to BUL (the Brother
> Unknown Language) as it would be if it was processed on a workstation by
> CUPS.
>
> Note that this is a conversion, not an interpretation. An interpreter
> produces a raster image and this happens later when the RIP deals with
> BUL.

So you appear to be saying that what passes through the AirPrint wire
or wifi link is a PDF. The printer then converts it to BUL, then raster.

> > > Whether the printer
> > > handles direct PDF printing is questionable. But it's a decent idea to
> > > try.
> >
> > It would seem odd to support PDF printing and be silent on the matter
> > in the printer's literature, eg www.printerbase.co.uk/spec/pdf/brother-mfcj5720dw.pdf
> > http://support.brother.com/g/b/spec.aspx?c=eu_ot&lang=en&prod=mfcj5720dw_us_eu_as
>
> The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
> interpreter. Hence the silence.

So if a PDF arrives by AirPrint, how does the MFC-J5720DW interpret it
if it doesn't have a PDF converter? (I am genuinely ignorant and confused.)

I'm used to this:

Paper -> scanner -> PDF containing image -> [...wifi...] -> computer

where the PDF is really just a container with an image in it.
And then its converse (but not its inverse):

Computer PDF -> CUPS -[convert]-> BUL -> [...wifi...] -> BrotherPrinter -[RIP]-> paper

where the Computer PDF contains some postscript-like code mixed
in with fonts etc which has to be "converted".

So now with AirPrint we have:

Phone PDF -[no-driver]-> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper

Linux computer PDF -> CUPS -> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper

but what does the backend of CUPS have to do? Why not just
cp ~/my-file.pdf dnssd://Brother%20Printer...
if you're not bothered about queueing/scheduling etc.

Cheers,
David.

[jdd]

Le 13/03/2016 05:34, David Wright a écrit :

> Well, let's assume that most people buy their equipment rather than
> being given it for free.

I also bought one for $25 (the two of them had already 200.000 copies
done :-) - but it's an obsolete machine now

of course it was trash bin machines, most companies do not keep machines
for more than 5-7 years and you can have them second hand; but looks
like french second hand is much cheaper than us ones.

but it was only an example

> I can see a refurbished one on the web for $340 (if that's the right
> model) which is far more than a new AiO.

much too expensive

I found at first glance:

http://www.inmac-wstore.com/produits/p2622357/HP-LaserJet-Pro-400-M401d---imprimante---monochrome---laser.htm

I sure one can find some cheaper

but I didn't said you have to change your Brother printer. I use daily
Brother printers and I'm very glad about them

here the list of ps linux compatibles brother printers

http://www.openprinting.org/driver/Postscript-Brother/

jdd

[Celejar]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:34:41 -0600
David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

...

> The HP5M is solely a printer which is fine as far as it goes, but now
> I need to buy a scanner, and quite possibly a fax machine, as well.
> AFAICT I'd have to use it through a parallel (or serial?) interface.
> This laptop has neither. You can network it with 10Base-T for a price,
> but no USB connection.

JFTR, it should be noted that USB - RS232 converters (which, AFAIK, all
use the same couple of chipsets which are well supported by linux) are
cheap and readily available, e.g.:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RS232-RS-232-Serial-to-USB-2-0-PL2303-Cable-Adapter-Converter-for-Linux-System-/271217594818


Celejar

[David Wright]

On Sun 13 Mar 2016 at 09:04:47 (+0100), jdd wrote:
> Le 13/03/2016 05:34, David Wright a écrit :
>
> >Well, let's assume that most people buy their equipment rather than
> >being given it for free.
>
> I also bought one for $25 (the two of them had already 200.000
> copies done :-) - but it's an obsolete machine now
>
> of course it was trash bin machines, most companies do not keep
> machines for more than 5-7 years and you can have them second hand;
> but looks like french second hand is much cheaper than us ones.
>
> but it was only an example
>
> >I can see a refurbished one on the web for $340 (if that's the right
> >model) which is far more than a new AiO.
>
> much too expensive
>
> I found at first glance:
>
> http://www.inmac-wstore.com/produits/p2622357/HP-LaserJet-Pro-400-M401d---imprimante---monochrome---laser.htm
>
> I sure one can find some cheaper

Why are you suggesting monochrome models? Please let's compare like
with like. You've disputed my suggestion that having native support
for PDF printing makes a printer expensive compared with the
example in the subject line (list price $250).

> but I didn't said you have to change your Brother printer. I use
> daily Brother printers and I'm very glad about them
>
> here the list of ps linux compatibles brother printers
>
> http://www.openprinting.org/driver/Postscript-Brother/

which seems to confirm their expensiveness. Taking the lowest numbered
model in each category that prints colour (note, prints only) and is
available to buy:

DCP-9xxx you can buy these in India though I can't work out if they're new.
HL-2700CN $450 (refurbished)
MFC-9010CN $1100

As I said, you're in a different price bracket. Guessing by what I've
seen, it's partly because PDF printing tends to come with lasers
and ethernet, ie for office documents, not home photographs.

Cheers,
David.

[jdd]

Le 13/03/2016 20:12, David Wright a écrit :

> As I said, you're in a different price bracket. Guessing by what I've
> seen, it's partly because PDF printing tends to come with lasers
> and ethernet, ie for office documents, not home photographs.
>

but did you really try to send a pdf to your printer? only need to
remove most of the paper to prevent loss if it don't fit :-)

this airprint feature is surprising

jdd

[Brian]

On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 23:43:27 -0600, David Wright wrote:

> On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 09:56:37 (+0000), Brian wrote:
>
> > The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document
> > sent to an Airprint capable printer is converted to BUL (the Brother
> > Unknown Language) as it would be if it was processed on a workstation by
> > CUPS.
> >
> > Note that this is a conversion, not an interpretation. An interpreter
> > produces a raster image and this happens later when the RIP deals with
> > BUL.
>
> So you appear to be saying that what passes through the AirPrint wire
> or wifi link is a PDF. The printer then converts it to BUL, then raster.

The file type sent by Safari (say) from an iOS device is controlled by
Apple. Observation shows it is PDF.

> > The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
> > interpreter. Hence the silence.
>
> So if a PDF arrives by AirPrint, how does the MFC-J5720DW interpret it
> if it doesn't have a PDF converter? (I am genuinely ignorant and confused.)

I've said specifically it has a PDF converter. It must have; the printer
does not understand PDF.

> I'm used to this:
>
> Paper -> scanner -> PDF containing image -> [...wifi...] -> computer
>
> where the PDF is really just a container with an image in it.
> And then its converse (but not its inverse):
>
> Computer PDF -> CUPS -[convert]-> BUL -> [...wifi...] -> BrotherPrinter -[RIP]-> paper
>
> where the Computer PDF contains some postscript-like code mixed
> in with fonts etc which has to be "converted".
>
> So now with AirPrint we have:
>
> Phone PDF -[no-driver]-> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper
>
> Linux computer PDF -> CUPS -> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper

That last line is not correct for using Debian CUPS with an iOS device.
The process is:

iOS device -> CUPS (BUL out) -> Printer -> Print

With CUPS the process is:

This is done by CUPS
+------------------------------------------------+
| Input file -> convert to PDF -> Convert to BUL | -> Printer does something
+------------------------------------------------+

Because the sending device is driverless all I am saying (I have no
special insight) is that with Airprint we have:

Done on the printer
+------------------------------------------+
iOS device -> Sends PDF -> | Convert to BUL -> Printer does something |
+------------------------------------------+

One filtering stage has to be moved to the printer. I do not know how it
is done but it reasonable to guess the same method which CUPS uses is
also used. What I am sure about is that there is no PDF interpreter on
the printer. Brother already have the technology to convert from PDF to
BUL and, as a practical point, an interpreter would raise the cost of
production of the printer.

Substitute PS, PCL, QPDL etc for BUL to see how other manufacturers
might deal with AirPrint.

> but what does the backend of CUPS have to do? Why not just
> cp ~/my-file.pdf dnssd://Brother%20Printer...
> if you're not bothered about queueing/scheduling etc.

The part played by what is in the Bonjour broadcasts is crucial to the
whole thing working. Apart from the questionable use of cp, IPP is used
for printing and is what is advertised in the broadcasts.

The CUPS backend converts PDF to BUL. But, as it happens, you do not
need cupsd to print to an AirPrint printer.

[Brian]

On Sun 13 Mar 2016 at 20:21:45 +0100, jdd wrote:

> Le 13/03/2016 20:12, David Wright a écrit :
>
> >As I said, you're in a different price bracket. Guessing by what I've
> >seen, it's partly because PDF printing tends to come with lasers
> >and ethernet, ie for office documents, not home photographs.
> >
>
> but did you really try to send a pdf to your printer? only need to remove
> most of the paper to prevent loss if it don't fit :-)

*Direct* PDF printing is usually indicated in the printer's literature.

> this airprint feature is surprising

In what way?

[jdd]

Le 13/03/2016 20:40, Brian a écrit :

> *Direct* PDF printing is usually indicated in the printer's literature.

nothing is never sure. When it's so easy to try why don't?

>
>> this airprint feature is surprising
>
> In what way?
>

if it don't support pdf...

but may be there is a pdf translator in the airprint device included in
the printer

jdd

[David Wright]

On Sun 13 Mar 2016 at 19:32:04 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 23:43:27 -0600, David Wright wrote:
>
> > On Sat 12 Mar 2016 at 09:56:37 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> >
> > > The PDL of choice for AirPrint capable devices is PDF. A PDF document
> > > sent to an Airprint capable printer is converted to BUL (the Brother
> > > Unknown Language) as it would be if it was processed on a workstation by
> > > CUPS.
> > >
> > > Note that this is a conversion, not an interpretation. An interpreter
> > > produces a raster image and this happens later when the RIP deals with
> > > BUL.
> >
> > So you appear to be saying that what passes through the AirPrint wire
> > or wifi link is a PDF. The printer then converts it to BUL, then raster.
>
> The file type sent by Safari (say) from an iOS device is controlled by
> Apple. Observation shows it is PDF.

If you say so. I haven't observed anything as I don't have one
(neither iOS nor whatever is at the other end of the communication).

> > > The important word is "direct". The MFC-J5720DW doesn't have a PDF
> > > interpreter. Hence the silence.
> >
> > So if a PDF arrives by AirPrint, how does the MFC-J5720DW interpret it
> > if it doesn't have a PDF converter? (I am genuinely ignorant and confused.)
>
> I've said specifically it has a PDF converter. It must have; the printer
> does not understand PDF.

Once again, I don't understand this statement because I don't
understand your terminology...

My question with pronouns removed: "So if a PDF arrives by AirPrint,
how does the MFC-J5720DW printer interpret the PDF if the MFC-J5720DW
printer doesn't have a PDF converter?"

Your response AIUI with pronouns removed: "I've said specifically the
MFC-J5720DW printer has a PDF converter. The MFC-J5720DW printer must
have; the MFC-J5720DW printer does not understand PDF."

Is that what you mean to say? If not, couuld you replace the
appropriate nouns by different nouns.

> > I'm used to this:
> >
> > Paper -> scanner -> PDF containing image -> [...wifi...] -> computer
> >
> > where the PDF is really just a container with an image in it.
> > And then its converse (but not its inverse):
> >
> > Computer PDF -> CUPS -[convert]-> BUL -> [...wifi...] -> BrotherPrinter -[RIP]-> paper
> >
> > where the Computer PDF contains some postscript-like code mixed
> > in with fonts etc which has to be "converted".
> >
> > So now with AirPrint we have:
> >
> > Phone PDF -[no-driver]-> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper
> >
> > Linux computer PDF -> CUPS -> [...wifi...] -> AirPrint -[convert]-> BUL -[RIP]-> paper
>
> That last line is not correct for using Debian CUPS with an iOS device.

That last line wasn't intended to represent my thinking on how an iOS
device would be handled. "Phone" is the iOS device, as shown in the
_previous_ line.

> The process is:
>
> iOS device -> CUPS (BUL out) -> Printer -> Print
>
> With CUPS the process is:
>
> This is done by CUPS
> +------------------------------------------------+
> | Input file -> convert to PDF -> Convert to BUL | -> Printer does something
> +------------------------------------------------+
>
> Because the sending device is driverless all I am saying (I have no
> special insight) is that with Airprint we have:
>
> Done on the printer
> +------------------------------------------+
> iOS device -> Sends PDF -> | Convert to BUL -> Printer does something |
> +------------------------------------------+
>
> One filtering stage has to be moved to the printer. I do not know how it
> is done but it reasonable to guess the same method which CUPS uses is
> also used. What I am sure about is that there is no PDF interpreter on
> the printer. Brother already have the technology to convert from PDF to
> BUL and, as a practical point, an interpreter would raise the cost of
> production of the printer.
>
> Substitute PS, PCL, QPDL etc for BUL to see how other manufacturers
> might deal with AirPrint.

None of your examples (the bits -> like -> this) have "AirPrint"
mentioned in them. I'm trying to learn from you what AirPrint is and
what it does. And yet your statements about it say things like
"The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to)." and "Substitute PS,

PCL, QPDL etc for BUL to see how other manufacturers might deal with

AirPrint." which tell me nothing specifically about AirPrint.

> > but what does the backend of CUPS have to do? Why not just
> > cp ~/my-file.pdf dnssd://Brother%20Printer...
> > if you're not bothered about queueing/scheduling etc.
>
> The part played by what is in the Bonjour broadcasts is crucial to the
> whole thing working. Apart from the questionable use of cp, IPP is used
> for printing and is what is advertised in the broadcasts.

OK. I can see that CUPS has some work to do to find the printer with
whatever it uses (dnssd/avahi/bonjour/...). That part doesn't really
interest me in this discussion.

> The CUPS backend converts PDF to BUL.

Why bother? The AirPrint technology built into the MFC-J5720DW printer
can do that. Why can't CUPS send PDF down the wire to the printer,
thereby avoiding all the driver-crap? You've just said "The AirPrint
facility handles a PDF" (requoted above). Why not let it do so?

> But, as it happens, you do not
> need cupsd to print to an AirPrint printer.

OK. What's the minimum that you _do_ need? By minimum, I'm meaning
things like drivers; the things that linux users get tripped up by;
the things that make "perfectly functional" printers into doorstops.

Cheers,
David.

[jdd]

Le 14/03/2016 04:48, David Wright a écrit :

> Why bother? The AirPrint technology built into the MFC-J5720DW printer
> can do that. Why can't CUPS send PDF down the wire to the printer,
> thereby avoiding all the driver-crap? You've just said "The AirPrint
> facility handles a PDF" (requoted above). Why not let it do so?

my guess is that airprint is a black box between the "air" (what ever it
means) and the printer, like an ethernet card can be.

If you send ethernet signal through usb, the printer wont understand it.
If it's so, the printer only understand pdf if used with airprint.

the other solution is having in the printer a linux box (invisible to
user) having an airprint interface, an usb interface, etc, and then the
usb may also understand pdf.

jdd

[David Wright]

On Mon 14 Mar 2016 at 08:43:06 (+0100), jdd wrote:
> Le 14/03/2016 04:48, David Wright a écrit :
>
> >Why bother? The AirPrint technology built into the MFC-J5720DW printer
> >can do that. Why can't CUPS send PDF down the wire to the printer,
> >thereby avoiding all the driver-crap? You've just said "The AirPrint
> >facility handles a PDF" (requoted above). Why not let it do so?
>
> my guess is that airprint is a black box between the "air" (what
> ever it means) and the printer, like an ethernet card can be.

Not having such a printer, I can only quote what I see written by
people who should know:

"AirPrint is built into most popular printer models, like the ones
listed in this article." which includes MFC-J5720DW in the list.

"On your Mac, you can also connect your AirPrint printer to a USB port
or Ethernet port if you don't want to print wirelessly. Check the
documentation that came with your printer to see if it includes one
of these ports."

Both from https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201311

> If you send ethernet signal through usb, the printer wont understand
> it. If it's so, the printer only understand pdf if used with
> airprint.
>
> the other solution is having in the printer a linux box (invisible
> to user) having an airprint interface, an usb interface, etc, and
> then the usb may also understand pdf.

Cheers,
David.

[Brian]

On Sun 13 Mar 2016 at 22:48:07 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Sun 13 Mar 2016 at 19:32:04 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> >
> > I've said specifically it has a PDF converter. It must have; the printer
> > does not understand PDF.
>
> Once again, I don't understand this statement because I don't
> understand your terminology...

"PDF filter" would be a suitable substitute for "PDF converter". But not
"PDF interpreter".

> My question with pronouns removed: "So if a PDF arrives by AirPrint,
> how does the MFC-J5720DW printer interpret the PDF if the MFC-J5720DW
> printer doesn't have a PDF converter?"
>
> Your response AIUI with pronouns removed: "I've said specifically the
> MFC-J5720DW printer has a PDF converter. The MFC-J5720DW printer must
> have; the MFC-J5720DW printer does not understand PDF."
>
> Is that what you mean to say? If not, couuld you replace the
> appropriate nouns by different nouns.

Yes. But maybe my understanding of what an onboard PS/PCL/PDF interpreter
does (stated in an earlier mail) is different from yours.

> None of your examples (the bits -> like -> this) have "AirPrint"
> mentioned in them. I'm trying to learn from you what AirPrint is and
> what it does. And yet your statements about it say things like
> "The AirPrint facility handles a PDF (it has to)." and "Substitute PS,
> PCL, QPDL etc for BUL to see how other manufacturers might deal with
> AirPrint." which tell me nothing specifically about AirPrint.

We seem to be both agreed that a PDF arriving at an AirPrint-compatible
printer has to be dealt with in some way to ready it for printing. Let's
leave it there. It is interesting to speculate how a printer processes a
PDF sent from a driverless device but ultimately it is of no great
consequence because it is not under our control.

> > The part played by what is in the Bonjour broadcasts is crucial to the
> > whole thing working. Apart from the questionable use of cp, IPP is used
> > for printing and is what is advertised in the broadcasts.
>
> OK. I can see that CUPS has some work to do to find the printer with
> whatever it uses (dnssd/avahi/bonjour/...). That part doesn't really
> interest me in this discussion.

It really should. Without Bonjour broadcasting by the printer AirPrint
would not exist.

> > The CUPS backend converts PDF to BUL.
>
> Why bother? The AirPrint technology built into the MFC-J5720DW printer
> can do that. Why can't CUPS send PDF down the wire to the printer,
> thereby avoiding all the driver-crap? You've just said "The AirPrint
> facility handles a PDF" (requoted above). Why not let it do so?

Why not, indeed? The Bonjour broadcasts of the printer should be picked
up by avahi-daemon and the printer listed in the print dialogues of some
applications (e.g Iceweasel/Firefox). These applications produce PDFs as
a matter of course. They are sent directly to the printer and the
printer sorts them in some way. No filtering on the machine is
necessary so cupsd is not involved, whether or not it is on the system.

This implementation of this idea was the objective being worked towards
in

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/03/msg00401.html

as a solution to Jarle Aase's issue. All we need is someone with an
AirPrint printer to test it. :).

But if the printer is not AirPrint-compatible we will need cupsd and the
backend filter. (That lead to the discussion of what happens on the
printer).

> > But, as it happens, you do not
> > need cupsd to print to an AirPrint printer.
>
> OK. What's the minimum that you _do_ need? By minimum, I'm meaning
> things like drivers; the things that linux users get tripped up by;
> the things that make "perfectly functional" printers into doorstops.

When cupsd isn't running no drivers are needed because the print job is
sent directly to the AirPrint-compatible printer. avahi-daemon is
required, of course.

When sent to a non-compatible printer the minimum number of drivers
needed is determined by the printer make and model when it is set up as
a local or remote shared printer with CUPS.

[jdd]

Le 14/03/2016 14:10, David Wright a écrit :

> "AirPrint is built into most popular printer models, like the ones
> listed in this article." which includes MFC-J5720DW in the list.

> Both from https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201311
>

may be popular in mac world, I never touched a printer with this :-(

jdd

[Adam Wilson]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000 Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com>

wrote:

> On Saturday 12 March 2016 07:50:49 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> > this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> > fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> > blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> > vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.
>

> And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants to

> use binary blobs?? I was nearly lynched for wanting to use something
> from the non-free repository.

If you're referring to the great "should" debate, then this is a pretty
inaccurate description of what happened. I inadvertently used the word
"should" as opposed to "it would be better if" (insert other
non-triggering alternative if it suits), and was promptly jumped by
everyone for being "intolerant", or "pushy", or some shit.

People should (there it is again!) be free to advocate whatever views
they want, as well as pursue whatever course of action they may wish
without all this ridicule from the "open-source" gang- including
avoiding blobs, or thinking that perhaps, just maybe, non-free software
is a *bad thing*.

But people should also be free to tell others how to act- it may come
across as rude, but I don't really care- it is an extension of freedom
of speech, provided there is no direct physical coercion involved.

"Live and let live" is a touch ironic coming from the very people who
launch nit-picky attacks like the ones described in the first place.

[Adam Wilson]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:46:08 +0000 Lisi Reisz <lisi....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Saturday 12 March 2016 07:50:49 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > So. Now I'll bite off my tongue and take my ball with me. I'm off
> > this thread. I can't bear the overall animosity and poking of
> > fun at those who try to put some effort into avoiding binary
> > blobs. It reminds me of the poking at vegetarians "now are snails
> > vegetables or not?". I thought I left that behind in my teens.
>
> And the Everything Free brigade is so pleasant to anyone who wants to
> use binary blobs?? I was nearly lynched for wanting to use something
> from the non-free repository.
>

> Why can't we all live and let live? And all I have seen in this
> thread is people not comprehending. No-one being unpleasant and
> castigating.
>
> I have a ball if anyone would like it. ;-)
>
> Lisi
>

And all this on a mailing list belonging to a distribution that
actually has the decency to call itself GNU/Linux. Whatever next?