dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?)

[Erik Josefsson]

I've now repeated the same sequence of commands a couple of times to
make [SD-cards for the Teres laptop] and finally it looks like I get the
same results every time :-)

*** make new Teres SD-card with new Teres laptop
mkdir /home/debian/teres
cd /home/debian/teres
wget http://box.redpill.dk/nonfree/nonfree-teres1-buster-1.0b22.img.gz
gunzip nonfree-teres1-buster-1.0b22.img.gz
lsblk --paths
lsblk --paths
umount /dev/sda
sudo cp nonfree-teres1-buster-1.0b22.img /dev/sda
*** move new Teres SD-card to new Teres laptop
sudo box-fill-disk
sudo apt update
sudo box-add-gui
sudo apt install etckeeper
sudo apt install man
sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
-> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
-> Other
-> Swedish
-> Swedish
-> The default for the keyboard layout
-> No compose key
-> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
sudo shutdown -h now

And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".

I have tried "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key PC
(intl.)" in the menue following the command 'dpkg-reconfigure
keyboard-configuration' (see above), but there is no difference between
105 and 102 wrt what the Teres keyboard produce on screen (see below).

I have also tried with an USB keyboard which has one extra key between
<left shift> and <z>. That extra key delivers "|") and "¦" with both
"Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key PC (intl.)" (and Swedish).

I can of course use the USB keyboard with my laptop, but it would be
more convenient if I could get the Teres keyboard to do "|" and "¦".

So, does anyone know how to make the Teres keyboard not only output
Swedish letters, but also "|" and  "¦"?

Maybe there is a "keyboard model" I can choose that is a better fit than
"Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and"Generic 102-key PC (intl.)"?

Thank you for your time.

//Erik


[SD-cards for the Teres laptop] https://box.redpill.dk/nonfree/


Generic 105-key PC (intl.)

DELTACO USB keyboard

No key pressed
§§11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨
aassddffgghhjjkkllööää''
<<zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

SHIFT
½½!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÖÖÄÄ**
>>ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

ALT+GR
¶¶¡¡@@££$$€€¥¥{{[[]]}}\\±±
@@łł€€®®þþ←←↓↓→→œœþþ¨~
ªªßßððđđŋŋħħ̉ĸĸłłøøææ´´
||««»»©©““””nnµµ¸··̣

ALT+GR+SHIFT
¾¾¹¹²²³³¼¼¢¢⅝⅝÷÷««»»°°¿¿¬¬
ΩΩŁŁ¢¢®®ÞÞ¥¥↑↑ııŒŒÞÞ°ˇ
ºº§§ÐЪªŊŊĦĦ̛&&ŁŁØØÆÆ××
¦¦<<>>©©‘‘’’NNºº˛˙˙


Teres keyboard

No key pressed
§§11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨''
aassddffgghhjjkkllööää
zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

SHIFT
½½!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^**
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÖÖÄÄ
ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

ALT+GR
¶¶¡¡@@££$$€€¥¥{{[[]]}}\\±±
@@łł€€®®þþ←←↓↓→→œœþþ¨~´´
ªªßßððđđŋŋħħ̉ĸĸłłøøææ
««»»©©““””nnµµ¸··̣

ALT+GR+SHIFT
¾¾¹¹²²³³¼¼¢¢⅝⅝÷÷««»»°°¿¿¬¬
ΩΩŁŁ¢¢®®ÞÞ¥¥↑↑ııŒŒÞÞ°ˇ××
ºº§§ÐЪªŊŊĦĦ̛&&ŁŁØØÆÆ
<<>>©©‘‘’’NNºº˛˙˙



Generic 102-key PC (intl.)

DELTACO USB keyboard

No key pressed
§§11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨
aassddffgghhjjkkllööää''
<<zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

SHIFT
½½!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÖÖÄÄ**
>>ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

ALT+GR
¶¶¡¡@@££$$€€¥¥{{[[]]}}\\±±
@@łł€€®®þþ←←↓↓→→œœþþ¨~
ªªßßððđđŋŋħħ̉ĸĸłłøøææ´´
||««»»©©““””nnµµ¸··̣

ALT+GR+SHIFT
¾¾¹¹²²³³¼¼¢¢⅝⅝÷÷««»»°°¿¿¬¬
ΩΩŁŁ¢¢®®ÞÞ¥¥↑↑ııŒŒÞÞ°ˇ
ºº§§ÐЪªŊŊĦĦ̛&&ŁŁØØÆÆ××
¦¦<<>>©©‘‘’’NNºº˛˙˙


Teres keyboard

No key pressed
§§11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨''
aassddffgghhjjkkllööää
zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

SHIFT
½½!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^**
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÖÖÄÄ
ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

ALT+GR
¶¶¡¡@@££$$€€¥¥{{[[]]}}\\±±
@@łł€€®®þþ←←↓↓→→œœþþ¨~´´
ªªßßððđđŋŋħħ̉ĸĸłłøøææ
««»»©©““””nnµµ¸··̣

ALT+GR+SHIFT
¾¾¹¹²²³³¼¼¢¢⅝⅝÷÷««»»°°¿¿¬¬
ΩΩŁŁ¢¢®®ÞÞ¥¥↑↑ııŒŒÞÞ°ˇ××
ºº§§ÐЪªŊŊĦĦ̛&&ŁŁØØÆÆ
<<>>©©‘‘’’NNºº˛˙˙

[Kenneth Parker]

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson  wrote:

<snip>

-> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
-> Other
-> Swedish
-> Swedish
-> The default for the keyboard layout
-> No compose key
-> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
sudo shutdown -h now

And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".

With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" key.  I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters. 

One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, for when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.

Which? 

I have tried "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key PC
(intl.)" in the menue following the command 'dpkg-reconfigure
keyboard-configuration' (see above), but there is no difference between
105 and 102 wrt what the Teres keyboard produce on screen (see below).

I have also tried with an USB keyboard which has one extra key between
<left shift> and <z>. That extra key delivers "|") and "¦" with both
"Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key PC (intl.)" (and Swedish).

I can of course use the USB keyboard with my laptop, but it would be
more convenient if I could get the Teres keyboard to do "|" and "¦".

So, does anyone know how to make the Teres keyboard not only output
Swedish letters, but also "|" and  "¦"?

Maybe there is a "keyboard model" I can choose that is a better fit than
"Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and"Generic 102-key PC (intl.)"?

Thanks!

Kenneth Parker 

Thank you for your time.

//Erik

<snip>

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-05-04 18:23:48)

> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
> > -> Other
> > -> Swedish
> > -> Swedish
> > -> The default for the keyboard layout
> > -> No compose key
> > -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
> > sudo shutdown -h now
> >
> > And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".

Nothing specific to Teres-I laptop about that.

Problem is that you want a pipe key "|" reachable on a 102-key keyboard
with a swedish layout.

Swedish layout is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Swedish

Notice how "<" and ">" (on a 105-key US layout is right of "M", shifted)
is left of "Z" on a key which is missing on 102-char keyboards.

> With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" key.
> I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters.
>
> One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, for
> when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.
>
> Which?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar#Solid_vertical_bar_vs_broken_bar

- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private

[David Wright]

On Sat 04 May 2019 at 12:23:48 (-0400), Kenneth Parker wrote:
> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> <snip>

> > And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
>
> With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" key.
> I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters.
>
> One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, for
> when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.
>
> Which?

Pipe lies between { and } and is 7-bit ASCII, whereas the other one
lies between Yen and Section. I'm not sure why the OP wants to be able
to type it directly from one keystroke. Look at the company it keeps:
¡ ¢ £ ¤ ¥ ¦ § ¨ © ª « ¬ ­ ® ¯ ° ± ² ³ ´ µ ¶ · ¸ ¹ º » ¼ ½ ¾ ¿ À
We British are used to having £ available, but US keyboards don't
even have ¢.

Cheers,
David.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting David Wright (2019-05-04 20:14:12)

¢ (ecu) is obsolete since many years.

€ (euro) is the current currency sign in some of EU.

As for the original question I simply ignore the odd parts and focus on
what I can sensibly contribute to: The pipe sign a.k.a. Unicode
"vertical bar": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jonas Smedegaard (2019-05-04 19:08:19)

> Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-05-04 18:23:48)
> > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > > -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
> > > -> Other
> > > -> Swedish
> > > -> Swedish
> > > -> The default for the keyboard layout
> > > -> No compose key
> > > -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
> > > sudo shutdown -h now
> > >
> > > And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
>
> Nothing specific to Teres-I laptop about that.
>
> Problem is that you want a pipe key "|" reachable on a 102-key keyboard
> with a swedish layout.
>
> Swedish layout is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Swedish
>
> Notice how "<" and ">" (on a 105-key US layout is right of "M", shifted)
> is left of "Z" on a key which is missing on 102-char keyboards.

For danish, picking the layout "Danish (Win keys) has pipe key reachable
as AltGr+= (where AltGr is the right Alt key).

I also set "Menu" (which is the key between right Alt and right Ctrl) as
compose key. That enables a range of additional key combos (but pipe
unreachable as it requires ^ directly reachable which in danish layout
in Shift'ed).

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-04 kl. 18:23, skrev Kenneth Parker:

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson  wrote:

<snip>

-> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
-> Other
-> Swedish
-> Swedish
-> The default for the keyboard layout
-> No compose key
-> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
sudo shutdown -h now

And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".

With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" key.  I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters. 

One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, for when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.

Which?

Actually, I'm just missing pipe (for exactly that reason).

The "¦" symbol is apparently called "broken bar" and happens to be the what my "scandinavian" USB- keyboard gives when the physical key between the <z> and the <left shift> key is pressed together with <alt gr>+<shift>. I have never used it before and I don't think it has a function in any language, see wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar#Solid_vertical_bar_vs_broken_bar

I have not yet figured out how to make the Teres keyboard do the pipe.

//Erik

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-04 kl. 19:08, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:
> Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-05-04 18:23:48)
>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
>>> -> Other
>>> -> Swedish
>>> -> Swedish
>>> -> The default for the keyboard layout
>>> -> No compose key
>>> -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
>>> sudo shutdown -h now
>>>
>>> And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
> Nothing specific to Teres-I laptop about that.

How do you know?

There are no signs on the box telling me that the Teres laptop keyboard
is one or the other of the [keyboards listed] by dpkg-reconfigure
keyboard-configuration and the link to the hardware source don't say
either:

https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD

> Problem is that you want a pipe key "|" reachable

Yes, that is the problem!

> on a 102-key keyboard

The Teres laptop keyboard has 80 physical keys. Why do you call it a
"102-key keyboard"?

> with a swedish layout.
>
> Swedish layout is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Swedish
>
> Notice how "<" and ">" (on a 105-key US layout is right of "M", shifted)
> is left of "Z" on a key which is missing on 102-char keyboards.

Myscandinavian USB keyboard has 105 physical keys, but since the Teres
laptop keyboard has 80 physical keys I cannot really notice "a key which

is missing on 102-char keyboards".

Please note that both myUSB keyboard and the Teres keyboard delivers
identical output with the two dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
options I have tried "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key
PC (intl.)".

Thanks for feedback!

//Erik


[keyboards listed]

A4Tech KB-21
A4Tech KBS-8
A4Tech Wireless Desktop RFKB-23 — безжична
Acer AirKey V
Acer C300
Acer Ferrari 4000
Acer portàtil
Advance Scorpius KI
Amiga
Apple
Apple
Apple Aluminium (ANSI)
Apple Aluminium (ISO)
Apple Aluminium (JIS)
Apple portàtil
Asus portàtil
Atari TT
Azona RF2300 wireless Internet
BenQ X-Touch
BenQ X-Touch 730
[and more...]

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-04 kl. 21:43, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:
> For danish, picking the layout "Danish (Win keys) has pipe key reachable
> as AltGr+= (where AltGr is the right Alt key).
>
> I also set "Menu" (which is the key between right Alt and right Ctrl) as
> compose key.

So if you were to make a Danish Teres laptop, you'd make the following
choices in dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration?

Keyboard model:              Generic 102-key PC (intl.)
Keyboard layout:             Danish - (Win keys)
Key to function as AltGr:    The default for the keyboard layout
Compose key:                 Menu key

Use Control+Alt+Backspace to
terminate the X server?      <No>

Those won't work for me, but there are a couple of Finnish options I
will try.

Thanks for taking time.

//Erik

[Doug]

What is on the last key on the right, directly above the right Enter key? On a US keyboard, the is a back slant (unshifted) and the pipe, shifted. You haven't mentioned that key at all.

--doug

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-05 kl. 04:31, skrev Doug:
>
> What is on the last key on the right, directly above the right Enter
> key? On a US keyboard, the is a back slant (unshifted) and the pipe,
> shifted. You haven't mentioned that key at all.

The print on that physical key on the Teres laptop is backslash \ and
(shifted) pipe | .

The keyboard physically looks like this (also the black letters map on
the print on the keys):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

except for the last row that from left has
<ctrl><Fn><penguin><Alt><Spacebar><Alt><Menu><ctrl>.

Btw, that svg file seems to refer to an ISO standard that looks current:

https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html

So maybe the Teres keyboard is actually standard compliant, despite (or
thanks to?) the penguin key?

//Erik

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-05 03:48:22)

> Den 2019-05-04 kl. 19:08, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:
> > Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-05-04 18:23:48)
> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
> >>> -> Other
> >>> -> Swedish
> >>> -> Swedish
> >>> -> The default for the keyboard layout
> >>> -> No compose key
> >>> -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
> >>> sudo shutdown -h now
> >>>
> >>> And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
> > Nothing specific to Teres-I laptop about that.
>
> How do you know?

Fine. I don't know if there is a screw loose in your laptop, or
warewolves pissed on a USB plugs. Or all those swedish solar flares...

Perhaps you'd better ask a mechanic, a veterinary, and an astronomer for
help, instead of this mailinglist!

> Please note that both myUSB keyboard and the Teres keyboard delivers
> identical output with the two dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
> options I have tried "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)" and "Generic 102-key
> PC (intl.)".

If that option works great then don't change that option.

[Erik Josefsson]

Found that keyboard model "Generic 102-key PC (intl.)" and keyboard layout "Finnish - Finnish (Winkeys)" works for me (the rest as above).

At last! :-)

With some stickers to put onto the printed keys I'll be fine. Grateful for pointers to such.

Sorry for the noise.

//Erik

Configuring keyboard-configuration

Please select the model of the keyboard of this machine.
-Keyboard model: Generic 102-key PC (intl.)
Please select the layout matching the keyboard for this machine.
-Keyboard layout: Danish - Danish (Win keys) [and below "Finnish - Finnish (Winkeys)"]
With some keyboard layouts, AltGr is a modifier key used to input some characters, primarily ones that are unusual for the language of the keyboard layout, such as foreign currency symbols and accented letters. These are often printed as an extra symbol on keys.
-Key to function as AltGr:  The default for the keyboard layout
The Compose key (known also as Multi_key) causes the computer to interpret the next few keystrokes as a combination in order to produce a character not found on the keyboard. On the text console the Compose key does not work in Unicode mode. If not in Unicode mode, regardless of what you choose here, you can always also use the Control+period combination as a Compose key.
-Compose key:  Menu key
By default the combination Control+Alt+Backspace does nothing. If you want it can be used to terminate the X server.
-Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>

Danish - Danish (Win keys)
<no key>
½½11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨''
aassddffgghhjjkkllææøø
zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

<Shift>
§§!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^**
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÆÆØØ
ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

<AltGr>
¾¾¡¡@@££$$€€¥¥{{[[]]}}±±||
@@łł€€®®þþ←←↓↓→→œœþþ¨~˝
ªªßßððđđŋŋħħ̉ĸĸłł´^
««»»©©““””nnµµ¸··̣

<Shift>+<AltGr>
¶¶¹¹²²³³¼¼¢¢⅝⅝÷÷««»»°°¿¿¦¦
ΩΩŁŁ¢¢®®ÞÞ¥¥↑↑ııŒŒÞÞ°ˇ××
ºº§§ÐЪªŊŊĦĦ̛&&ŁŁ˝ˇ
<<>>©©‘‘’’NNºº˛˙˙

Finnish - Finnish (Winkeys)
<no key>
§§11223344556677889900++´
qqwweerrttyyuuiiooppåå¨''
aassddffgghhjjkkllööää
zzxxccvvbbnnmm,,..--

<Shift>

½½!!""##¤¤%%&&//(())==??`
QQWWEERRTTYYUUIIOOPPÅÅ^**
AASSDDFFGGHHJJKKLLÖÖÄÄ
ZZXXCCVVBBNNMM;;::__

<AltGr>
/@@££$$€€‚‚{{[[]]}}\\¸
qqww€€rrþþyyuuııœœ̛˝~ˇ
əəßßððffgghhjjĸĸ/øøææ
ʒʒ××ccvvbbŋŋµµ’’̣––

<Shift>+<AltGr>
¡¡””»»««““„„<<>>°°¿¿˛
QQWWRRÞÞYYUU||ŒŒ̉°ṓ
ƏƏẞẞÐÐFFGGHHJJØØÆÆ
ƷƷ··CCVVBBŊŊ——‘‘˙,

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-05 12:06:53)

> With some stickers to put onto the printed keys I'll be fine. Grateful
> for pointers to such.

Did you try search the web e.g. for "keyboard stickers"?

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-05 kl. 12:47, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:
> Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-05 12:06:53)
>> With some stickers to put onto the printed keys I'll be fine. Grateful
>> for pointers to such.
> Did you try search the web e.g. for "keyboard stickers"?

I did! And "swerty" came up!

http://johanegustafsson.net/projects/swerty/

He says "Swerty for Linux" has been tested  on Ubuntu 9.04, 9.10, 10.04,
and 12.04.

I guess this means I could file a whishlist bug for both "TERES-I
keyboard" as 'Keyboard model' and and "Swerty" as 'Keyboard layout' as
choices presented by dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration :-)

Best regards.

//Erik

[David Wright]

On Sat 04 May 2019 at 21:16:25 (+0200), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting David Wright (2019-05-04 20:14:12)
> > On Sat 04 May 2019 at 12:23:48 (-0400), Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > > And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
> > >
> > > With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the
> > > "p" key.
> > > I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters.
> > >
> > > One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol,
> > > for when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.
> > >
> > > Which?
> >
> > Pipe lies between { and } and is 7-bit ASCII, whereas the other one
> > lies between Yen and Section. I'm not sure why the OP wants to be able
> > to type it directly from one keystroke. Look at the company it keeps:
> > ¡ ¢ £ ¤ ¥ ¦ § ¨ © ª « ¬ ­ ® ¯ ° ± ² ³ ´ µ ¶ · ¸ ¹ º » ¼ ½ ¾ ¿ À
> > We British are used to having £ available, but US keyboards don't
> > even have ¢.
>
> ¢ (ecu) is obsolete since many years.

Er. Americans still have cents (¢).

The ECU (₠) was never a real currency anyway. I never saw its symbol
being used in the wild. Its position is way down the Unicode table,
in the company of ₡ ₢ ₣ ₤ ₥ ₦ ₧ ₨ ₩ ₪ ₫ € ₭ ₮ ₯ ₰ ₱, currency signs
that I would have difficulty naming from their symbols, apart from—

> € (euro) is the current currency sign in some of EU.
>
> As for the original question I simply ignore the odd parts and focus on
> what I can sensibly contribute to: The pipe sign a.k.a. Unicode
> "vertical bar": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar

Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is *so*
keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
in European usage."

Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
they didn't.

Cheers,
David.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting David Wright (2019-05-05 16:26:26)

> On Sat 04 May 2019 at 21:16:25 (+0200), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting David Wright (2019-05-04 20:14:12)

> > > We British are used to having £ available, but US keyboards don't
> > > even have ¢.
> >
> > ¢ (ecu) is obsolete since many years.
>
> Er. Americans still have cents (¢).
>
> The ECU (₠) was never a real currency anyway.

Whoops - I guess that reveals how rarely (i.e. never) I use cent sign
:-)

Thanks for the correction!

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-05 kl. 16:26, skrev David Wright:
> Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is*so*
> keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
> almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
> Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
> http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
> which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
> code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
> ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
> in European usage."
>
> Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
> want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
> as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
> they didn't.

For what it's worth, I had the foggy idea that I had to figure out how
to make the Teres keyboard reproduce the output from the Scandinavian
USB keyboard. What else would be "right"?

When the 105 and 102 options then gave the same result, it got
completely lost.

And I'm still kind of lost since I don't really understand what a
"Keyboard model" is. So already at the first menu choice of
dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration I don't really know what I'm
doing there.

In the dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration menu there are [193
different keyboard models] to choose from.

But two of them are the same, at least from the point of view of a Teres
laptop.

How does that work?

//Erik

[193 different keyboard models]

A4Tech KB-21
A4Tech KBS-8
A4Tech Wireless Desktop RFKB-23 — безжична
Acer AirKey V
Acer C300
Acer Ferrari 4000
Acer portàtil
Advance Scorpius KI
Amiga
Apple
Apple Aluminium (ANSI)
Apple Aluminium (ISO)
Apple Aluminium (JIS)
Apple portàtil
Asus portàtil
Atari TT
Azona RF2300 wireless Internet
BenQ X-Touch
BenQ X-Touch 730

BenQ X-Touch 800
Brother Internet
BTC 5090
BTC 5113RF Multimedia
BTC 5126T
BTC 6301URF
BTC 9000
BTC 9000A
BTC 9001AH
BTC 9019U
BTC 9116U Mini Wireless Internet and Gaming — безжична, за Интернет и игри
Cherry Blue Line CyBo@rd
Cherry Blue Line CyBo@rd (alt.)
Cherry B.UNLIMITED
Cherry CyBo@rd USB-Hub
Cherry CyMotion Expert
Cherry CyMotion Master Linux
Cherry CyMotion Master XPress
Chicony Internet
Chicony KB-9885
Chicony KU-0108
Chicony KU-0420
Chromebook
Classmate PC
Compaq Armada portàtil
Compaq Easy Access
Compaq Internet (13 tecles)
Compaq Internet (18 tecles)
Compaq Internet (7 tecles)
Compaq iPaq
Compaq Presario portàtil
Creative Desktop Wireless 7000 — безжична
Dell
Dell 101-key PC
Dell Inspiron 6000/8000 portàtil
Dell Latitude portàtil
Dell Precision M65 portàtil
Dell Precision M portàtil
Dell SK-8125
Dell SK-8135
Dell USB Multimedia
Dexxa Wireless Desktop
Diamond 9801/9802
DTK2000
eMachines m6800 portàtil
Ennyah DKB-1008
Everex STEPnote
FL90
Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo portàtil
Generies 101-sleutel PC
Generies 104-sleutel PC
Genius Comfy KB-12e
Genius Comfy KB-16M/Multimedia KWD-910
Genius Comfy KB-21e-Scroll
Genius KB-19e NB
Genius KKB-2050HS
Gyration
Happy Hacking
Happy Hacking per Mac
Hewlett-Packard Internet
Hewlett-Packard Mini 110 portàtil
Hewlett-Packard NEC SK-2500 Multimedia
Hewlett-Packard nx9020
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook 500
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook 500 FA
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook 6000/6100
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook XE3 GC
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook XE3 GF
Hewlett-Packard Omnibook XT1000
Hewlett-Packard Pavilion dv5
Hewlett-Packard Pavilion ZT1100
Honeywell Euroboard
HTC Dream
IBM Rapid Access
IBM Rapid Access II
IBM Space Saver
IBM ThinkPad 560Z/600/600E/A22E
IBM ThinkPad R60/T60/R61/T61
IBM ThinkPad Z60m/Z60t/Z61m/Z61t
Keytronic FlexPro
Logitech
Logitech Access
Logitech Cordless Desktop
Logitech Cordless Desktop (alt.)
Logitech Cordless Desktop EX110
Logitech Cordless Desktop iTouch
Logitech Cordless Desktop LX-300 — безжична
Logitech Cordless Desktop Navigator
Logitech Cordless Desktop Optical
Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro (2a. alt.)
Logitech Cordless Freedom/Desktop Navigator
Logitech diNovo
Logitech diNovo Edge
Logitech G15, допълнителни клавиши чрез G15daemon
Logitech Internet
 Logitech Internet 350
Logitech Internet Navigator
Logitech iTouch
Logitech iTouch Cordless Y-RB6
Logitech iTouch Internet Navigator SE
Logitech iTouch Internet Navigator SE USB
Logitech Ultra-X
Logitech Ultra-X Cordless Media Desktop
MacBook/MacBook Pro
MacBook/MacBook Pro (intl.)
Macintosh
Macintosh (oud)
Memorex MX1998
Memorex MX2500 EZ-Access
Memorex MX2750
Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
Microsoft Internet
Microsoft Internet Pro (Suec)
Microsoft Natural Elite
Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000
Microsoft Natural Pro OEM
Microsoft Natural Pro/Internet Pro
Microsoft Natural Pro USB/Internet Pro
Microsoft Natural Wireless Ergonomic 7000
Microsoft Natuurlik
Microsoft Office sleutelbord
Microsoft Wireless Multimedia 1.0A
NEC SK-1300
NEC SK-2500
NEC SK-6200
NEC SK-7100
Northgate OmniKey 101
OLPC
Ortek Multimedia/Internet MCK-800
PC-98
PC genèric de 102 tecles (intl.)
PC genèric de 105 tecles (intl.)
Propeller Voyager KTEZ-1000
QTronix Scorpius 98N+
Samsung SDM 4500P
Samsung SDM 4510P
Sanwa Supply SKB-KG3
Silvercrest Multimedia Wireless
SteelSeries Apex 300 (Apex RAW)
Sun Type 4
Sun Type 5
Sun Type 6 (Japonesa)
Sun Type 6/7 USB (Europeu)
Sun Type 6 USB (Japonesa)
Sun Type 6 USB (Unix)
Sun Type 7 USB (Europeu)
Sun Type 7 USB (Japonès)/106 tecles japonesa
Sun Type 7 USB (Unix)
Super Power Multimedia
SVEN Ergonomic 2500
SVEN Slim 303
Symplon PaceBook tauleta
Targa Visionary 811
Toshiba Satellite S3000
Truly Ergonomic 227
Truly Ergonomic 229
Truly Ergonomic Computer Keyboard Model 227 — ергономична, широк Alt
Truly Ergonomic Computer Keyboard Model 229 — ергономична, нормален Alt,
допълнителни Super и Menu
Trust Direct Access
Trust Slimline
Trust Wireless Classic
TypeMatrix EZ-Reach 2020
TypeMatrix EZ-Reach 2030 PS2
TypeMatrix EZ-Reach 2030 USB
TypeMatrix EZ-Reach 2030 USB — режим 102/105:EU
TypeMatrix EZ-Reach 2030 USB — режим 106:JP
Unitek KB-1925
ViewSonic KU-306 Internet
Winbook Model XP5
Yahoo! Internet
Кинезис
На Sun, вид 6/7 USB
На Sun, вид 7 USB
Телефон HTC Dream

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 May 2019 at 20:52:40 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Den 2019-05-05 kl. 16:26, skrev David Wright:
> > Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is*so*
> > keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
> > almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
> > Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
> > http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
> > which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
> > code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
> > ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
> > in European usage."
> >
> > Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
> > want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
> > as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
> > they didn't.
>
> For what it's worth, I had the foggy idea that I had to figure out how
> to make the Teres keyboard reproduce the output from the Scandinavian
> USB keyboard. What else would be "right"?

[Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
(assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]

> When the 105 and 102 options then gave the same result, it got
> completely lost.
>
> And I'm still kind of lost since I don't really understand what a
> "Keyboard model" is. So already at the first menu choice of
> dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration I don't really know what I'm
> doing there.
>
> In the dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration menu there are [193
> different keyboard models] to choose from.
>
> But two of them are the same, at least from the point of view of a
> Teres laptop.
>
> How does that work?

I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
keys they have.

What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
\| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
£, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.

The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
(i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
European) ones usually do.

You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
have any particular significance significance: the key produces
pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).

I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
when you type this key with just shift pressed?

Cheers,
David.

[Erik Josefsson]

Hi David!

Thanks for helping me sort out my thoughts!

Den 2019-05-06 kl. 22:42, skrev David Wright:

On Sun 05 May 2019 at 20:52:40 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:

Den 2019-05-05 kl. 16:26, skrev David Wright:

Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is*so*
keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
in European usage."

Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
they didn't.

For what it's worth, I had the foggy idea that I had to figure out how
to make the Teres keyboard reproduce the output from the Scandinavian
USB keyboard. What else would be "right"?

[Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
(assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]

Yes, that's the Teres keyboard.

The wikipedia picture of ISO/IEC 9995-3:2002 applied to the US keyboard layout has 3 keys to the left and 4 keys to the right of the spacebar. Teres has 4 keys to the left and 3 keys to the right, otherwise they look the same (also the print on the keys):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

This similarity makes me wonder why I cannot find any information from Olimex (or elsewhere) whether the Teres keyboard is fully compliant with the ISO standard that seems to be the one at hand (and which also seems current):

https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html

If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice of "Keyboard model" easier than it is now.

I also guess that compliance would not only mean that the number of keys, their relative positions and the print on the keycaps would be defined, but also, and more importantly, that the digital output would follow certain rules.

And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output would suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128 (to later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or 80), but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output) is a mystery.

It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the (brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or am I completely wrong here?

If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193 different keyboard models in that sense?

I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the 193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?

I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).

When the 105 and 102 options then gave the same result, it got
completely lost.

And I'm still kind of lost since I don't really understand what a
"Keyboard model" is. So already at the first menu choice of
dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration I don't really know what I'm
doing there.

In the dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration menu there are [193
different keyboard models] to choose from.

But two of them are the same, at least from the point of view of a
Teres laptop.

How does that work?

I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
keys they have.

As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys (KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.

https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch

I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23 electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output per electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92 different combinations. That should be enough, no?

What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
\| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
£, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.

The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
(i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
European) ones usually do.

You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
have any particular significance significance: the key produces
pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).

I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
when you type this key with just shift pressed?

The "missing left-of-z key" on my "scandinavian" USB-keyboard  gives "<" with no key pressed, ">" with <Shift>, "|" with <AltGr> and "¦" with <AltGr>+<Shift>.

It is a 5 dollar cheapest possible off the shelf keyboard . It says made in China and comes with spelling errors on the box. So it's probably not even made in China.

But I have finally found that 102 and Finnish gives me the pipe with <i>+<AltGr>+<Shift>. So all is fine, except for that I don't understand why.

I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a student of mine.

Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt "Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657

Thanks for your time David.

Best regards.

//Erik

[David Wright]

On Fri 10 May 2019 at 15:45:34 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Thanks for helping me sort out my thoughts!

OK, but I don't claim any expertise here.

> Den 2019-05-06 kl. 22:42, skrev David Wright:
> > [Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
> > https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
> > (assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
> > has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]
>
> Yes, that's the Teres keyboard.
>

> The wikipedia picture ofISO/IEC 9995-3:2002 applied to the US keyboard

> layout has 3 keys to the left and 4 keys to the right of the spacebar.
> Teres has 4 keys to the left and 3 keys to the right, otherwise they
> look the same (also the print on the keys):
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

No surprises there, then. I've never seen R-Win on any keyboards that
aren't full size, nor a laptop without a Fn key, usually on the left.

> This similarity makes me wonder why I cannot find any information from
> Olimex (or elsewhere) whether the Teres keyboard is fully compliant
> with the ISO standard that seems to be the one at hand (and which also
> seems current):
>
> https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html
>
> If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice
> of "Keyboard model" easier than it is now.
>
> I also guess that compliance would not only mean that the number of
> keys, their relative positions and the print on the keycaps would be
> defined, but also, and more importantly, that the digital output would
> follow certain rules.

The only rule I know is that claiming compliance with standards can
cost serious money.

> And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output
> would suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128
> (to later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be
> excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or
> 80), but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output)
> is a mystery.

I don't think that these shifty keys are treated in such a logical
manner. I've always assumed that there's a keyboard controller chip
that's stamping "personality" on the keys, particularly Fn.

> It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the
> (brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is
> defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or
> am I completely wrong here?
>
> If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193
> different keyboard models in that sense?
>
> I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the
> 193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular
> keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?
>
> I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).

My own take: to be on that list, someone maintaining X has to obtain a
model of that keyboard to map out all the keys. By the time that's
been done, time has past and you likely will find that that model is
history as far as shopping is concerned. Unlike with kernel
development, there's not the pressure to keep up with new models as
they come out. Pruning the list of its older models is not a
priority either.

> > I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
> > differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
> > simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
> > keys they have.
>
> As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say
> anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys
> (KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro
> controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.
>
> https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch
>
> I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are
> connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23
> electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output
> per electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92
> different combinations. That should be enough, no?

Enough for what? I'm not sure what you mean. But as far as your use of
the keyboard is concerned, the keypresses have been through the
microprocessor, the kernel, and perhaps the xorg driver, so you're
not going to see any one-to-one mapping.

> > What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
> > puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
> > \| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
> > £, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.
> >
> > The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
> > (i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
> > thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
> > US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
> > European) ones usually do.
> >
> > You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
> > in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
> > traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
> > have any particular significance significance: the key produces
> > pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).
> >
> > I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
> > the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
> > place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
> > glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
> > when you type this key with just shift pressed?
>
> The "missing left-of-z key" on my "scandinavian" USB-keyboard gives
> "<" with no key pressed, ">" with <Shift>, "|" with <AltGr> and "¦"
> with <AltGr>+<Shift>.

That suggests that the layout is more like a US than a British keyboard.

> It is a 5 dollar cheapest possible off the shelf keyboard . It says
> made in China and comes with spelling errors on the box. So it's
> probably not even made in China.
>
> But I have finally found that 102 and Finnish gives me the pipe with
> <i>+<AltGr>+<Shift>. So all is fine, except for that I don't
> understand why.

What, the USB keyboard? Is that because you have some Scandinavian
characters to the right of p? (A US keyboard would be expected to have
three punctuation characters there: []\ shifting to {}|.)

> I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the
> Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy
> with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a
> student of mine.

Teaching moments?
. How many keyboard and laptop models have been released in, say, the
last two decades?
. Are review models of them all loaned to kernel and X developers in
a timely fashion?
. Are there people employed to keep up with specifying keyboard
models, and who pays them?

Answers to questions like that might alleviate their dismay.

That's before you get into what DIY is all about. DIY can mean just
carrying out final assembly of a set of components that's been
tailored for just that process. OTOH it can mean reengineering items
for uses they weren't designed for. And anything in between.

We're used to this with software: no one has the programs, scripts
etc that I have on this computer. None of my computers was designed
to run linux. None of my laptops has every Fn key (the coloured ones)
operable as per the engraving on it (the so-called hot keys). They
were designed for Windows and, as far as current versions are
concerned, the models are long obsolete.

> Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package
> keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt
> "Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:
>
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657

Sure, just don't hold your breath. It might be more profitable to
investigate how to redefine keys (VC and in X) to your liking.
Especially useful for alphabets having more than 26 letters.

For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to
do things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing
Alt-space from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy
to catch the Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with
xrandr, etc.

Cheers,
David.

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-10 kl. 18:21, skrev David Wright:
> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 15:45:34 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:

>> https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html
>>
>> If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice
>> of "Keyboard model" easier than it is now.
>>
>>

> The only rule I know is that claiming compliance with standards can
> cost serious money.

Thanks for that insight and explanation!

>> And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output
>> would suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128
>> (to later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be
>> excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or
>> 80), but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output)
>> is a mystery.
> I don't think that these shifty keys are treated in such a logical
> manner. I've always assumed that there's a keyboard controller chip
> that's stamping "personality" on the keys, particularly Fn.

Indeed there is a keyboard controller chip that "takes care of all
keyboard matrix scanning, key de-bouncing and communications with the
computer, and has an internal buffer if the keystroke data cannot be
sent immediately. The PC motherboard decodes the data received from the
keyboard via the PS/2 port using interrupt IRQ1".

More from same source: "If, for example, you press 'shift' and 'A' then
both keys will generate their own scan codes, the 'A' scan code value is
not changed if a shift or control key is also pressed. Pressing the
letter 'A' generates 'lC'h make code and when released the break code is
'F0'h, 'lC'h.
Pressing 'shift' and 'A' keys will generate the following scan codes:
The make code for the 'shift' key is sent '12'h.
The make code for the 'A' key is sent 'lC'h.
The break code for the 'A' key is sent 'F0'h, 'lC'h.
The break code for the 'shift' key is sent 'F0'h,' 12'h.
If the right shift was pressed then the make code is '59'h and break
code is 'F0'h, '59'h.
By analysing these scan codes the PC software can determine which key
was pressed. By looking at the shift keystroke the software can
distinguish between upper and lower case."

source:
https://www.isy.liu.se/edu/kurs/TSTE12/laboration/TSTE12_Lab1_170824.pdf

Thanks for the hints leading me to that page.

>> It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the
>> (brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is
>> defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or
>> am I completely wrong here?
>>
>> If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193
>> different keyboard models in that sense?
>>
>> I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the
>> 193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular
>> keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?
>>
>> I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).
> My own take: to be on that list, someone maintaining X has to obtain a
> model of that keyboard to map out all the keys. By the time that's
> been done, time has past and you likely will find that that model is
> history as far as shopping is concerned. Unlike with kernel
> development, there's not the pressure to keep up with new models as
> they come out. Pruning the list of its older models is not a
> priority either.

Unfortunately that makes perfect sense.

>
>>> I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
>>> differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
>>> simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
>>> keys they have.
>> As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say
>> anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys
>> (KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro
>> controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.
>>
>> https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch
>>
>> I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are
>> connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23
>> electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output
>> per electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92
>> different combinations. That should be enough, no?
> Enough for what? I'm not sure what you mean. But as far as your use of
> the keyboard is concerned, the keypresses have been through the
> microprocessor, the kernel, and perhaps the xorg driver, so you're
> not going to see any one-to-one mapping.

Sorry for writing out loud, I'm not sure what I was thinking. But
anyway, it should be possible to write a program that listens to
keypresses and asks you to press different keys like the "left-of-z key"
and then suggest to you which "Keyboard model" you actually have,
regardless which "Keyboard model" you have chosen with dpkg-reconfigure.
Then no pruning of the list would be necessary.

(I mean something like "people who have ¦ left of Z often also have Å to
the right of P", maybe you'd like a 105 Intl. model?", it doesn't have
to be exactly right)

No, the Teres keyboard.

My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both
Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦" from
the original subject line). I thought the solution was to find the
correct "Keyboard model" for Teres. It turned out that was impossible,
the solution was to give up Swedish (which is quite counter intuitive)
and choose Finnish instead, and to choose a "Keyboard model" that made
no sense.

> Is that because you have some Scandinavian
> characters to the right of p? (A US keyboard would be expected to have
> three punctuation characters there: []\ shifting to {}|.)
>
>> I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the
>> Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy
>> with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a
>> student of mine.
> Teaching moments?
> . How many keyboard and laptop models have been released in, say, the
> last two decades?
> . Are review models of them all loaned to kernel and X developers in
> a timely fashion?
> . Are there people employed to keep up with specifying keyboard
> models, and who pays them?
>
> Answers to questions like that might alleviate their dismay.
>
> That's before you get into what DIY is all about. DIY can mean just
> carrying out final assembly of a set of components that's been
> tailored for just that process. OTOH it can mean reengineering items
> for uses they weren't designed for. And anything in between.

Thank you! I will remember what you say!

>
> We're used to this with software: no one has the programs, scripts
> etc that I have on this computer. None of my computers was designed
> to run linux. None of my laptops has every Fn key (the coloured ones)
> operable as per the engraving on it (the so-called hot keys). They
> were designed for Windows and, as far as current versions are
> concerned, the models are long obsolete.
>
>> Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package
>> keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt
>> "Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:
>>
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657
> Sure, just don't hold your breath. It might be more profitable to
> investigate how to redefine keys (VC and in X) to your liking.
> Especially useful for alphabets having more than 26 letters.
>
> For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to
> do things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing
> Alt-space from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy
> to catch the Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
> And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
> capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with
> xrandr, etc.

I don't think I will ever reach that level of sophistication, but it is
very nice to hear that it is possible to make your computer do exactly
what you want!

Thanks again David.

Best regards.

//Erik

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-11 00:51:38)

> My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both
> Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦"
> from the original subject line).

I edited the subject line in my posts unrelated to the content of the
thread: Since recently emails sent by my "alot" which is my main Mail
User Agent (MUA) gets rejected by Debian servers if header fields
contain non-ASCII characters.

If someone happen to know the "alot" MUA and can tell the tweaking
needed to its configuration then great, but I don't have the time for
broader suggestions requiring me to debug on my own, so I simply try
avoid non-ASCII characters in header fields :-/

@David, if you care to share your personal tweaks then I am interested
in having a closer look, for inspiration and possibly for more general
use.

[Erik Josefsson]

Den 2019-05-11 kl. 01:22, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:

Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-11 00:51:38)

My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both 
Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦" 
from the original subject line).

I edited the subject line in my posts unrelated to the content of the 
thread: Since recently emails sent by my "alot" which is my main Mail 
User Agent (MUA) gets rejected by Debian servers if header fields 
contain non-ASCII characters.

The unintended consequence of interpreting your slight edit of the subject line as a comment on the content of the thread was that I learned a lot about my own mistakes :-)

Thank you!

That encourages me to ask another stupid question: I'd like to know why the "Keyboard model" has to be set before "Keyboard layout" when walking through the dpkg-reconfigure menues?

If it was the other way around, the first choice, "Keyboard layout", could perhaps make an informed selection from the list of "Keyboard models" that could be relevant at all.

In any case, what you care about as a user is "Keyboard layout", and in most cases when you have to make a series of choices, you start with your known knowns, not your known unknowns.

Best regards.

//Erik

[Erik Josefsson]

On 5/5/19 7:21 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> I don't know if there is a screw loose in your laptop, or
> warewolves pissed on a USB plugs.

Well, what comes out of one of the keyboards now is ppppppppppppppppp.

Could be warewolf p's, or baby drool.

It's magic either way.

//Erik

[David Wright]

On Wed 22 May 2019 at 04:06:46 (+0000), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> On 5/5/19 7:21 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > I don't know if there is a screw loose in your laptop, or
> > warewolves pissed on a USB plugs.
>
> Well, what comes out of one of the keyboards now is ppppppppppppppppp.

In response to your pressing keys, or spontaneously?
Rapidly or intermittently?
Is this permanent (whenever you switch on) or just occasional?
Or did it start mid-session?
After dpkg-reconfigure console-setup or keyboard-configuration?

Cheers,
David.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting David Wright (2019-05-22 14:40:28)

....or the really scary one: Does it happen only when the moon is full?

[David Wright]

On Wed 22 May 2019 at 15:18:36 (+0200), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting David Wright (2019-05-22 14:40:28)
> > On Wed 22 May 2019 at 04:06:46 (+0000), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> > > On 5/5/19 7:21 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > > I don't know if there is a screw loose in your laptop, or
> > > > warewolves pissed on a USB plugs.
> > >
> > > Well, what comes out of one of the keyboards now is ppppppppppppppppp.
> >
> > In response to your pressing keys, or spontaneously?
> > Rapidly or intermittently?
> > Is this permanent (whenever you switch on) or just occasional?
> > Or did it start mid-session?
> > After dpkg-reconfigure console-setup or keyboard-configuration?
>
> ....or the really scary one: Does it happen only when the moon is full?

:)

But I have a problem with this laptop where these questions would be
answered thus:

Spontaneously. Intermittently. Occasional. Not mid-session.
Not after dpkg-reconfigure. (And the characters typed are NULs.)
"What comes out of one of the keyboards now is ^@^@^@^@^@^@"
wouldn't help much in diagnosing my problem.

Cheers,
David.

[Erik Josefsson]

On 5/22/19 12:40 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 22 May 2019 at 04:06:46 (+0000), Erik Josefsson wrote:
>> On 5/5/19 7:21 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>> I don't know if there is a screw loose in your laptop, or
>>> warewolves pissed on a USB plugs.
>> Well, what comes out of one of the keyboards now is ppppppppppppppppp.
> In response to your pressing keys, or spontaneously?
> Rapidly or intermittently?

I found the laptop "p"-ing when coming back after wiping, among other
things, baby drool in another room. My daughter is 19 months.

More specifically, I came back to a growing line of p's in an open text
document in Mousepad (the xfce editor). I did not press any key, nor was
the p's coming rapidly or intermittently. I just closed Mousepad.

> Is this permanent (whenever you switch on) or just occasional?

It continued in Thunderbird, but less aggressive, kind of like at the
end of the walk with the dog (if the allegory still holds for another joke).

> Or did it start mid-session?

I think more like mid session, but not sure. I have now put that laptop
on the shelf.

If something similar happens with this laptop, we can rule out baby
drool. I'm keeping it safe from now on.

But it also means I will have to stop testing things and instead find
for another mode of working with Debian.

> After dpkg-reconfigure console-setup or keyboard-configuration?

Probably unrelated.

But you never know (full moons etc).

Best regards.

//Erik

[David Wright]

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 01:22:09 (+0200), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Den 2019-05-10 kl. 18:21, skrev David Wright:
> > > For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to do
> > > things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing Alt-space
> > > from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy to catch the
> > > Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
> > > And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
> > > capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with xrandr,
> > > etc.
>
> @David, if you care to share your personal tweaks then I am interested
> in having a closer look, for inspiration and possibly for more general
> use.

Sorry for the delay replying, but in view of my managing to get
stretch installed on the last of my machines, and with buster
coming up, I'd thought I'd do a bit of tidying.

The starting point for what I do is the composed characters that are
provided in X from /usr/share/X11/locale/en_US.UTF-8/Compose. So I
attempt to provide the same sequences to get the same characters on
the VC, just for ones that I personally use a lot.

The definitions go into /etc/console-setup/remap.inc, but AIUI you
have to include any default ones (which are mainly those for European
languages's diacriticals) because remap.inc overwrites them. I'm not
certain where the master list is, so dumpkeys --compose-only on
an unmodified system is the easiest way I've found to pick them up.

I failed to duplicate the X sequences for one or two characters,
I think because you're limited to two keystrokes after the Compose,
and possibly also to the Basic Multilingual Plane of Unicode. So,
for example, I use -- and __ on VCs in place of --. and --- on X
for the en and em dashes.

Then there are some common characters that aren't defined in X, so
I put those in ~/.XCompose (with matching ones in remap.inc). Again,
you have to respecify the system defaults, but in .XCompose you can
do it with an include (saving 6000 lines).

I also have a few more exotic characters that are only defined in
emacs using its ^X8 method, like diagonal, double, and double-headed
arrows.

All these work pretty much the same across all my machines/keyboards
(though I don't need £ and ¬ on my British ones). However, the fvwm
definitions vary much more because I try to match keys' functions
mnemonically with keycap engravings, and the latter vary widely,
particularly the coloured Fn keys on laptops.

So, for example, typing Sh-Alt-[☼+] or [☼-] (where Fn-[☼+] and [☼-]
increase and decrease brightness) starts or stops ffmpeg recording
of the whole screen as a movie, and Alt-[□■] (I don't remember what
Fn-[□■] is supposed to do) takes a screenshot of the whole screen.
Adding Shift- to the latter takes the screenshot after a delay.
Most keyboards have audio keys which X can recognise.

So my fvwm configuration files contains lines like:

Key F1 A C Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Master 0 mute
Key F1 A S Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Speaker 0 mute
Key F1 A CS Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Headphone 0 mute
Key F2 A C Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Master 5%- unmute
Key F2 A S Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Speaker 5%- unmute
Key F2 A CS Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Headphone 5%- unmute
Key F3 A C Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Master 5%+ unmute
Key F3 A S Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Speaker 5%+ unmute
Key F3 A CS Exec exec amixer -c 1 -- sset Headphone 5%+ unmute

Key F10 A 4 Maximize 100 100
Key F10 A M Exec exec myfvwm-scrot-key-png.sh
Key F10 A SM Exec exec myfvwm-scrot-key-png-delayed.sh
Key F10 R M Exec exec myfvwm-scrot-key-root-png.sh
Key F10 R SM Exec exec myfvwm-scrot-key-root-png-delayed.sh
Key F11 A 4 Raise
Key F11 A M -
Key F11 A SM Exec exec myfvwm-killcapture.sh
Key F12 A 4 Stick
Key F12 A M -
Key F12 A SM Exec exec myfvwm-capture.sh

# This performs Left/Right mouse clicks in an application (W: specifically for the browser,
# R: Left click in Root, but also activates Ctrl-Right click in Root!)
Key Print WR N FakeClick depth 0 press 1 wait 25 release 1
Key Print W C FakeClick depth 0 press 3 wait 25 release 3

I've attached some files mentioned.

Cheers,
David.

[David Wright]

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 10:10:42 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> […]

> That encourages me to ask another stupid question: I'd like to know
> why the "Keyboard model" has to be set before "Keyboard layout" when
> walking through the dpkg-reconfigure menues?
>
> If it was the other way around, the first choice, "Keyboard layout",
> could perhaps make an informed selection from the list of "Keyboard
> models" that could be relevant at all.

I wasn't aware that dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration had
any decision-making abilities like that. I think it just turns
multiword descriptive lists into the pithy descriptions, so that
you don't have to know that a "Generic 105-key (Intl) PC" keyboard
becomes "pc105" and a Right Alt key for AltGr becomes "lv3:ralt_switch".

> In any case, what you care about as a user is "Keyboard layout", and
> in most cases when you have to make a series of choices, you start
> with your known knowns, not your known unknowns.

My experience is that Keyboard Models is critical. Without getting
that correct, defining CapsLock as my Compose key is futile because
the driver doesn't seem to have a clue where the CapsLock is.
(That's for an "Acer laptop" PC.)

Cheers,
David.

[Erik Josefsson]

Hi David, which "driver doesn't seem to have a clue"?

//Erik

sorry for top posting

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[David Wright]

On Wed 17 Jul 2019 at 05:53:30 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> On 17 July 2019 01:22:52 CEST, David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Sat 11 May 2019 at 10:10:42 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> >> […]
> >> That encourages me to ask another stupid question: I'd like to know
> >> why the "Keyboard model" has to be set before "Keyboard layout" when
> >> walking through the dpkg-reconfigure menues?
> >>
> >> If it was the other way around, the first choice, "Keyboard layout",
> >> could perhaps make an informed selection from the list of "Keyboard
> >> models" that could be relevant at all.
> >
> >I wasn't aware that dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration had
> >any decision-making abilities like that. I think it just turns
> >multiword descriptive lists into the pithy descriptions, so that
> >you don't have to know that a "Generic 105-key (Intl) PC" keyboard
> >becomes "pc105" and a Right Alt key for AltGr becomes
> >"lv3:ralt_switch".
> >
> >> In any case, what you care about as a user is "Keyboard layout", and
> >> in most cases when you have to make a series of choices, you start
> >> with your known knowns, not your known unknowns.
> >
> >My experience is that Keyboard Models is critical. Without getting
> >that correct, defining CapsLock as my Compose key is futile because
> >the driver doesn't seem to have a clue where the CapsLock is.
> >(That's for an "Acer laptop" PC.)
>

> Hi David, which "driver doesn't seem to have a clue"?

I have few ideas there. I would imagine that it's something in
/lib/modules/4.9.0-9-amd64/kernel/drivers/input, likely generated
from something in linux-source-4.9/drivers/input. I don't know
whether the kernel operates at that level, or whether it's just
handing scancodes over to, say, kbd_mode for it to sort out.
Sorry, I'm just dealing in symptoms rather than causes, and only
to the depth required to get my configuration definitions working.

At the moment, I've only installed buster onto one machine (of six).
I've noticed that one or two .xsession-1-$HOSTNAME files (hooked
into .xsession) have a couple of xmodmap commands which I want
to eliminate (and check that it doesn't interfere with anything).
Each Debian distribution brings a few necessary tweaks with it, and
I try to leverage the Debian Way, removing workarounds and obsolete
methods that accumulated in the past.

So, for example, I noticed that the buster laptop was sitting with
the backlight on all morning, only to discover:

$ cat /sys/module/kernel/parameters/consoleblank
600
$

and no trace of /etc/kbd/config to set it in. (Where is it set in
stretch?) So now I've put
\e[9;11]\S \n \l \d \t
into /etc/issue, and I might put kbdrate back into root's crontab
(which I tried a while back, helping Cindy log in)
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00953.html
while I figure out what's been moved where.

Cheers,
David.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting David Wright (2019-07-16 19:41:17)

> On Sat 11 May 2019 at 01:22:09 (+0200), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > Den 2019-05-10 kl. 18:21, skrev David Wright:
> > > > For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to
> > > > do things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing
> > > > Alt-space from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy
> > > > to catch the Alt by mistake). Little things like that. And in
> > > > fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
> > > > capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with
> > > > xrandr, etc.
> >
> > @David, if you care to share your personal tweaks then I am
> > interested in having a closer look, for inspiration and possibly for
> > more general use.
>
> Sorry for the delay replying, but in view of my managing to get
> stretch installed on the last of my machines, and with buster coming
> up, I'd thought I'd do a bit of tidying.

Thanks a lot!

I am currently deeply engaged at Debconf in Curitiba, Brazil - but I
will sure have a closer look at your many details later, and see if I
can make some of them more reusable.