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dell latitude 3510 - bios settings to boot debian netinst

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Russell L. Harris

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Jan 19, 2023, 11:00:06 PM1/19/23
to
I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).

RLH
--
He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry
ground; a fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them
that dwell therein. - Psalm 107:33-34

David Wright

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Jan 19, 2023, 11:20:05 PM1/19/23
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On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
> 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
> 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).

Typically you'd tap away at F12 after turning it on, and that would
give you a one-time menu for where to boot from.

The F12 facility can be turned off, in which case you'd have to
tap away at F2 instead, which would give you access to the full
BIOS. The Boot Sequence will be somewhere in there, like (D430):

Boot Sequence

1 USB Storage Device
2 CD/DVD/CD-RW Drive
3 Diskette Drive
4 Internal HDD

Cardbus NIC
D/Dock PCI slot NIC
Onboard NIC

"Tap away" because the time window for pressing the key can be quite
narrow, as the progress bar sweeps across the screen during POST.

Cheers,
David.

Russell L. Harris

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Jan 20, 2023, 12:30:06 AM1/20/23
to
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 10:18:33PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
>On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
>> 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
>> 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
>
>Typically you'd tap away at F12 after turning it on, and that would
>give you a one-time menu for where to boot from.

The problem is that the "one-time menu" does not include the flash
device.


>The F12 facility can be turned off, in which case you'd have to
>tap away at F2 instead, which would give you access to the full
>BIOS. The Boot Sequence will be somewhere in there, like (D430):
>
> Boot Sequence
>
> 1 USB Storage Device
> 2 CD/DVD/CD-RW Drive
> 3 Diskette Drive
> 4 Internal HDD
>
> Cardbus NIC
> D/Dock PCI slot NIC
> Onboard NIC

Neither do the BIOS screens include the flash device.

Boot Sequence

[X] UEFI ST500LM034....

(+) Add Boot Option

I have searched with Google without success. The BIOS of this machine
offers an order of magnitude more options than does the BIOS of other
Dell machines. Regrettably, many of the parameters are not
explained.

RLH

Andrew M.A. Cater

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Jan 20, 2023, 7:30:05 AM1/20/23
to
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 05:23:06AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 10:18:33PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > > I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
> > > 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
> > > 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
> >
> > Typically you'd tap away at F12 after turning it on, and that would
> > give you a one-time menu for where to boot from.
>
> The problem is that the "one-time menu" does not include the flash
> device.
>

How did you create the flash device - what command did you use?

All best,

Andy Cater

>
> RLH
>

David Wright

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Jan 20, 2023, 10:30:05 AM1/20/23
to
On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 05:23:06 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 10:18:33PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > > I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
> > > 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
> > > 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).

BTW you don't say whether you've ever booted it from any kind of stick.

> > Typically you'd tap away at F12 after turning it on, and that would
> > give you a one-time menu for where to boot from.
>
> [ … ]
>
> Neither do the BIOS screens include the flash device.
>
> Boot Sequence
>
> [X] UEFI ST500LM034....
>
> (+) Add Boot Option
>
> I have searched with Google without success. The BIOS of this machine
> offers an order of magnitude more options than does the BIOS of other
> Dell machines. Regrettably, many of the parameters are not
> explained.

The Service Manual latitude-3510-sm-en-us.pdf (p88/9) says
● Enable USB Boot Support - Allows the system to boot
from an external USB device (Enabled by default)
● Enable External USB Ports - Allows the user to enable
or disable the USB ports on the computer (Enabled by
default)

Page 87 (p89/90 also relevant) explains that you can turn on booting
from an mSD card.

It's worth trying a variety of sticks, and in every available port,
lest it's USB2/3, or just some other inexplicable incompatibility.
I've had laptops showing that behaviour.

Cheers,
David.

Russell L. Harris

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Jan 20, 2023, 10:40:05 AM1/20/23
to
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 12:28:21PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 05:23:06AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 10:18:33PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
>> > On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> > > I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
>> > > 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
>> > > 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
>> The problem is that the "one-time menu" does not include the flash
>> device.
>How did you create the flash device - what command did you use?

After downloading the official netinst iso image, I copied it to the
flash stick (I routinely do netinst of Debian):

# cp debian-11.6.0-i386-netinst.iso /dev/sdb
# sync

Russell L. Harris

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Jan 20, 2023, 10:50:06 AM1/20/23
to
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 09:27:39AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
>On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 05:23:06 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 10:18:33PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
>> > On Fri 20 Jan 2023 at 03:43:09 (+0000), Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> > > I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
>> > > 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
>> > > 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
>BTW you don't say whether you've ever booted it from any kind of stick.

The machine was a gift; this is my first experience with a laptop of
recent manufacture.

>The Service Manual latitude-3510-sm-en-us.pdf (p88/9) says
> ??? Enable USB Boot Support - Allows the system to boot
> from an external USB device (Enabled by default)
> ??? Enable External USB Ports - Allows the user to enable
> or disable the USB ports on the computer (Enabled by
> default)

I checked those.

>Page 87 (p89/90 also relevant) explains that you can turn on booting
>from an mSD card.
>
>It's worth trying a variety of sticks, and in every available port,
>lest it's USB2/3, or just some other inexplicable incompatibility.
>I've had laptops showing that behaviour.

This flash stick has booted other machines.

mSD sounds promising.

RLH

Jeffrey Walton

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Jan 20, 2023, 3:20:05 PM1/20/23
to
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 10:35 AM Russell L. Harris <rus...@rlharris.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 12:28:21PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > [...]
> >How did you create the flash device - what command did you use?
>
> After downloading the official netinst iso image, I copied it to the
> flash stick (I routinely do netinst of Debian):
>
> # cp debian-11.6.0-i386-netinst.iso /dev/sdb
> # sync

I believe you should use dd to preserve the physical layout of the ISO file.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+use+dd+to+copy+iso+to+thumb+drive

Jeff

David

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Jan 20, 2023, 5:00:06 PM1/20/23
to
A *-i386-netinst.iso file is for a 32 bit CPU.

Dell Latitude 3510 uses a 64 bit CPU, so you should use
a *-amd64-netinst.iso. The "amd" in the name refers to the
CPU architecture, not the chip manufacturer.

You could try the file available from here:
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/11.6.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/

That image includes non-free firmware which might be required
by your hardware, which could avoid you having to deal with
other annoyances. Alternatively an image file without that firmware
is available here:
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/

David

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Jan 20, 2023, 5:10:06 PM1/20/23
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 at 07:19, Jeffrey Walton <nolo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 10:35 AM Russell L. Harris <rus...@rlharris.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 12:28:21PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> > # cp debian-11.6.0-i386-netinst.iso /dev/sdb
> > # sync
>
> I believe you should use dd to preserve the physical layout of the ISO file.

The command run by OP is exactly as instructed in the Debian Installation Guide.
https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/ch04s03.en.html
Section 4.3.1.

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jan 21, 2023, 2:50:05 AM1/21/23
to
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 03:18:31PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 10:35 AM Russell L. Harris <rus...@rlharris.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 12:28:21PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >How did you create the flash device - what command did you use?
> >
> > After downloading the official netinst iso image, I copied it to the
> > flash stick (I routinely do netinst of Debian):
> >
> > # cp debian-11.6.0-i386-netinst.iso /dev/sdb
> > # sync
>
> I believe you should use dd to preserve the physical layout of the ISO file.

No. Cp is fine. There are good reasons to use dd (for one, you do have
to do `sync' after cp and wait until that returns, this is one risk
of getting a short copy, whereas you can tell dd to work synchronously;
for another, you can tell sync to show you a progress indicator).

But the result is identical. You can also use cat.

Cheers
--
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David Christensen

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Jan 22, 2023, 9:00:06 PM1/22/23
to
On 1/19/23 19:43, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
> 3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
> 11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
> RLH


On 1/20/23 07:34, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> # cp debian-11.6.0-i386-netinst.iso /dev/sdb
> # sync


For newer computers with UEFI firmware and Secure Boot, I use the
"amd64" architecture version of the Debian Installer -- e.g.:

debian-11.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso


When I burn the above image to a USB flash drive manufactured by ADATA,
insert the USB flash drive into a Dell Latitude 5400, power up, and
press F12, the UEFI firmware displays a "UEFI BOOT" menu that includes:

UEFI: ADATA USB Flash Drive 0.00


Selecting the above entry boots the Debian Installer.


On 1/19/23 21:23, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> Boot Sequence
>
> [X] UEFI ST500LM034....
>
> (+) Add Boot Option


I used the above procedure to install Debian onto a second, zeroed USB
flash drive, but the Dell UEFI firmware does not display an entry for it
when I press the F12 key.


Instead, I must press the F2 key to enter SETUP and create a Boot
Sequence entry:

General
-> Boot Sequence
-> Boot List Option
-> Add Boot Option

Boot Option Name: Debian

File System List:
PciRoot(0x0)/PCI(0x14,0x0)/USB(0x16,0x0)/HD(1,GPT,2B0AFBEF-CDF7-4744-8734-D0D1BA0817EE)
File Name: \EFI\debian\shimx86.efi

-> OK

This adds a "Debian" entry to the Boot Sequence list. I move this entry
to the top of the list via the up/ down arrows, choose "Exit", and the
computer boots into my Debian installation.


David

Russell L. Harris

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Jan 22, 2023, 10:00:05 PM1/22/23
to
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 05:49:30PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>On 1/19/23 19:43, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>>I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
>>3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
>>11) written to USB flash (8Gbyte Patriot).
>For newer computers with UEFI firmware and Secure Boot, I use the
>"amd64" architecture version of the Debian Installer -- e.g.:
>
> debian-11.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso

1) Does this work on an Intel Pentium machine?

2) So I turn on Secure Boot?

RLH

Greg Wooledge

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Jan 22, 2023, 10:30:05 PM1/22/23
to
Current versions of Debian will NOT work on a Pentium (80586) machine.
Support for Pentium processors was dropped in stretch (Debian 9).[1]

Support for 80486 processors was dropped in stretch (Debian 6).[2]

[1] https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/i386/ch02s01.html.en
[2] https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch02s01.html.en#idp61966080

Jeffrey Walton

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Jan 22, 2023, 10:50:05 PM1/22/23
to
The Latitude 3510 was released in 2020. I doubt it is a 32-bit
architecture, like early Pentiums.

> 2) So I turn on Secure Boot?

I recommend turning SecureBoot off.

- UEFI
* GPT = on
* SecureBoot = off

And legacy modes, like BIOS legacy = off.

In SecureBoot, the only thing that is attested are the disk images.
There's no guarantees about the program once it is in-memory and
executing. What's being executed in-memory is the important thing.

The biggest accomplishment SecureBoot achieved under Windows 8 was
locking out other operating systems. And that did not last very long.

If you are having trouble turning off SecureBoot, then you may need to
add a BIOS/UEFI password. Once a password is present, the selections
to disable SecureBoot become available on some hardware, like Acer
laptops. Once you disable SecureBoot, you can remove the password so
you don't have to write it down.

Jeff

Stefan Monnier

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Jan 22, 2023, 11:10:05 PM1/22/23
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> In SecureBoot, the only thing that is attested are the disk images.
> There's no guarantees about the program once it is in-memory and
> executing. What's being executed in-memory is the important thing.

Indeed, it's important to remember tht SecureBoot's name comes from the
fact that it's designed to securely boot (Microsoft) competitors off
the market.


Stefan

Russell L. Harris

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Jan 22, 2023, 11:20:05 PM1/22/23
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On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 10:47:02PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 9:51 PM Russell L. Harris <rus...@rlharris.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 05:49:30PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>> >On 1/19/23 19:43, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> >>I have not figured out how to configure the BIOS of a Dell Latitude
>> >>3510 to cause it to see and boot from a Debian netinst image (Debian
>The Latitude 3510 was released in 2020. I doubt it is a 32-bit
>architecture, like early Pentiums.

Actually, I received three old laptops. I got Debian 11 running on
one of them; the BIOS reports:

Inspiron 3542
Intel Core i5-4210U
ram = DDR3L

No indication of 32-bit or 64-bit.

P.S. The Latitude 3510 has a COREi5 sticker by the keyboard.

RLH

Greg Wooledge

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Jan 22, 2023, 11:30:05 PM1/22/23
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On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 04:15:19AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> Actually, I received three old laptops. I got Debian 11 running on
> one of them; the BIOS reports:
>
> Inspiron 3542
> Intel Core i5-4210U
> ram = DDR3L
>
> No indication of 32-bit or 64-bit.

All Intel Core i5 processors are 64-bit capable, if I'm reading this
wikipedia page correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i5_processors

"1st generation ... All models support: ... Intel 64"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_64

"x86-64 (also known as x64, x86_64, AMD64, and Intel 64) is a 64-bit
version of the x86 instruction set"

Jeffrey Walton

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Jan 22, 2023, 11:40:05 PM1/22/23
to
Check Intel Ark for processor features (of Intel processors):
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=intel+ark+i5-4210U

* Intel® 64: Yes
* Instruction Set: 64-bit
* Instruction Set Extensions: Intel® SSE4.1, Intel® SSE4.2, Intel® AVX2

> P.S. The Latitude 3510 has a COREi5 sticker by the keyboard.

Ignore the stickers. You can buy them on eBay.

Jeff

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jan 23, 2023, 1:00:05 AM1/23/23
to
:-)

Or for Netflix to trust your computer, not you.

Cheers
--
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David Christensen

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Jan 23, 2023, 1:10:05 AM1/23/23
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https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/search.html?_charset_=UTF-8&q=pentium


> 2) So I turn on Secure Boot?


https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot


David

Felix Miata

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Jan 23, 2023, 1:30:04 AM1/23/23
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Russell L. Harris composed on 2023-01-22 04:15 (UTC):

> Inspiron 3542
> Intel Core i5-4210U
> ram = DDR3L

> No indication of 32-bit or 64-bit.

There is no such thing as an Intel Core* CPU that is 32bit. Yours is from 2014,
roughly 8 years after Intel quit making 32bit X86 mainline processors:
<https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/81016/intel-core-i54210u-processor-3m-cache-up-to-2-70-ghz/specifications.html>
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Dan Ritter

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Jan 23, 2023, 8:10:06 AM1/23/23
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Intel uses the name Pentium for too many incompatible things.

It will work on all the Pentium-labelled chips manufactured
since 2014, almost 10 years ago.

It will not work on most of the prior incarnations.

The Dell Latitude 3510 was sold with Intel 10th-generation Core
CPUs, and all of those will work with amd64.

-dsr-

Stefan Monnier

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Jan 23, 2023, 12:50:05 PM1/23/23
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> There is no such thing as an Intel Core* CPU that is 32bit.

Actually, the first "Core" branded CPUs ("Core Solo" and "Core Duo")
were still 32bit, back in 2006 (that was the time-window during which
AMD had already switched to 64bit CPUs and Intel still hoped it could
move people over to IA64 instead).

The Core 2 line that followed soon after (around 2006-2007) introduced
the amd64 architecture to the "Core" brand.


Stefan

David Christensen

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Jan 23, 2023, 9:30:05 PM1/23/23
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My Dell Inspiron E1505 shipped in 2007 with a 32-bit Core Duo
T2250 processor. In 2016, I STFW and saw that certain 64-bit Core 2 Duo
processors sometimes worked in this laptop (depending upon motherboard
hardware revision?). I bought and installed a T7400, and it works!


David

Stefan Monnier

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Jan 23, 2023, 10:40:06 PM1/23/23
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> My Dell Inspiron E1505 shipped in 2007 with a 32-bit Core Duo
> T2250 processor. In 2016, I STFW and saw that certain 64-bit Core 2 Duo
> processors sometimes worked in this laptop (depending upon motherboard
> hardware revision?). I bought and installed a T7400, and it works!

Same here: I upgraded to Core 2 Duo a mac mini and a Thinkpad T60, both
of which came with a Core Duo. There's a noticeable performance
increase and a slight improvement in power consumption as well.

I recently decommissioned the mac mini, but I still use my T60 as backup
laptop for when my T61 breaks down (such as right now, since one of the
hinges died again). The 3GB limit on the RAM is becoming problematic, tho.


Stefan

Steve McIntyre

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Jan 24, 2023, 7:20:06 AM1/24/23
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Jeff wrote:
>On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 9:51 PM Russell L. Harris <rus...@rlharris.org> wrote:
>
>> 2) So I turn on Secure Boot?
>
>I recommend turning SecureBoot off.
>
> - UEFI
> * GPT = on
> * SecureBoot = off
>
>And legacy modes, like BIOS legacy = off.
>
>In SecureBoot, the only thing that is attested are the disk images.
>There's no guarantees about the program once it is in-memory and
>executing. What's being executed in-memory is the important thing.
>
>The biggest accomplishment SecureBoot achieved under Windows 8 was
>locking out other operating systems. And that did not last very long.

Sigh. Secure Boot also does a reasonable job of blocking persistent
pre-boot malware, which is absolutely worth doing.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jan 24, 2023, 7:50:05 AM1/24/23
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On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 12:12:53PM +0000, Steve McIntyre wrote:

[...]

> >The biggest accomplishment SecureBoot achieved under Windows 8 was
> >locking out other operating systems. And that did not last very long.
>
> Sigh. Secure Boot also does a reasonable job of blocking persistent
> pre-boot malware, which is absolutely worth doing.

TBH, I've seen far more cases of the first type than of the second.

Cheers
--
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