Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Marco Möller]

Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened,
which made Norbert leaving the team?
Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be
part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance
and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after
his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the
community, which not all the community might be aware of.
In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on
flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of
contribution I want to do for Debian."
https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/

I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral
and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not
interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply
feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a
more transparent view on what is going on in the community.
Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE
neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency
instead of rupturing it?
Thanks, Marco.

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:28:54AM +0100, Marco Möller wrote:
> https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/
>
> I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral and
> respectful and without harming anybody.

If Norbert himself did not elaborate then how would it be possible
to publish personal information about him in a "neutral and
respectful" manner?

Debian has disciplinary procedures like any community and the public
are not automatically entitled to all of the details of those. I
don't know why you assume you should be.

Norbert has obviously been subject to some sort of disciplinary
action and as a result says he is winding down his efforts within
Debian. If he wanted the general public to know more about that then
surely he would have said more. Perhaps you can ask him? Your wish
can only be properly fulfilled by Norbert.

Maybe you just want someone to collate already-public information
about this? Having read Norbert's blogs before over the past few
years, I feel sure that looking back through his prior posts
regarding Debian would give you some idea as to where the points of
contention have existed for him (unless he has deleted them; have
not checked).

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

[Anders Andersson]

I read a few of the comments on the blog you linked to, and he replies
to one comment:

"No there is no public record (for now), as all happened on
debian-private. In due time I will document the whole process, since I
have access to all of debian-private until recently. Time to show what
really went on."

Maybe you just have to wait a while. This will of course only be one
side of the story.

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian
Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide.

And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at
all, for the forementioned reason.

Regards,

--
PEB

[harry...@tutanota.com]

--
Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox.



17 Jan 2022, 07:36 by p...@debian.org:

And I believe in open source.
Cheers!

Harry

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

harry...@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100:
> And I believe in open source.

That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I
said.

(apart from that matter you should check your mail client configuration,
replying below the quoted mail that you've put after your signature
makes your message… hard to find)

--
PEB

[harry...@tutanota.com]

18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by p...@debian.org:

>
> harry...@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100:
>
>> And I believe in open source.
>>
>
> That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I
> said.
>

Open source equates with open information access.
That's actually what it's all about.
Cheers!

Harry.

[Nicholas Geovanis]

Thank you for saying that, agree.

www.preining.info has discussion of the future of his software on Debian. He's using Arch. I'm thinking about volunteering to maintain Julia on Debian, it's behind and not in testing. I haven't looked at the code.

I don't have the time to follow the controversy. All I can say is it's 20 years Preining contributing to Debian, now over.

Harry.

[Nicholas Geovanis]

And just to be clear: Yes, without presentation of alternate views, we are told to accept the (hopefully democratic) outcome as justified and a better place for us too.

Harry.

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

harry...@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 23:21:07+0100:

> 18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by p...@debian.org:
>
>>
>> harry...@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100:
>>
>>> And I believe in open source.
>>>
>>
>> That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I
>> said.
>>
>
> Open source equates with open information access.

I disagree with this statement, which would have insane and
far-from-desirable consequences if it were true.

> That's actually what it's all about.

Thank you for sharing your opinion on this.

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue

[Marco Möller]

For transparency in a community driven project I do not think it would
be needed to share private messages.
Instead, a statement like the following would provide some transparency:
"the package maintainer was asked to comply to the following rules
...(stating which ones...) but apparently no conciliation was reached;
therefore the committee ...(stating which committee)... decided to take
the following measures ...(which measures)..."

Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as
community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the
reasoning for their decisions. Skeptics might even ask who in such
conjectured circle is providing truly independent work to the project
and who is getting paid paid by whom for the efforts put into the
project and then link taken decisions simply to monetary pressure? Such
rumors can easily be defeated by more transparency.

I would expect that factual statements can be published without
violating privacy of private conversations.
Maybe some insider can speak up and shed light on the situation.

Best wishes,
Marco

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Marco Möller wrote:
> a statement like the following would provide some transparency:
> "the package maintainer was asked to comply to the following rules
> ...(stating which ones...) but apparently no conciliation was reached;
> therefore the committee ...(stating which committee)... decided to take the
> following measures ...(which measures)..."

When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual
conflict.
This mail by Norbert Preining

https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html

describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian
Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the
Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team).
His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by
the other side of this conflict.

I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from
there, but i did not explore 900 matches of

https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[songbird]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
...

> When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual
> conflict.
> This mail by Norbert Preining
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html
>
> describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian
> Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the
> Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team).
> His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by
> the other side of this conflict.
>
> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from
> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of
>
> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10
>
>
> Have a nice day :)

excellent reply and pretty much my own feelings on the matter
too. :)

if people want to keep trolling on the matter it's all fine with
me but it doubtful it will shed any more light in relation to how
much heat it will give off for not much gain.


songbird

[Marco Möller]

Asking for transparency to sound like trolling wasn't my intention. I am
sorry if I wasn't able to find the correct wording for keeping these to
things distinguishable.

Being a grateful user of Debian, and being in my circle of influence a
strong advocate of the Debian project, and also of the KDE Plasma
desktop environment as available in Debian, I do not feel it to be, lets
say, insolent, if interested in community affairs. Actually, I feel it
desirable to stay well informed for reinforcing advocacy, and asking for
transparency is to me a coherent step.

I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
off obstructively.
As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old
discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation.
Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly
also questioning if community processes are always taking place
sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from
one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement
from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could
prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions
of the present disagreement.

Best wishes,
Marco

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On behalf of DAM - the Debian Account Managers - the brief statement follows:

====

Norbert's status as Debian Developer has been officially withdrawn after
repeated violations of the Debian Code of Conduct. An appeal process was also
initiated and has concluded. It upheld the withdrawal of the Debian Developer
status.

That withdrawal does not prevent him from making contributions to the Debian
Project. However, it's entirely understandable that he might choose to leave
the community instead. That is a decision we must respect, and I'd ask you to
do so as well.

=====

With every good wish,

Andrew Cater

[deloptes]

Marco Möller wrote:

> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
> not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
> off obstructively.
> As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old
> discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation.
> Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly
> also questioning if community processes are always taking place
> sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from
> one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement
> from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could
> prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions
> of the present disagreement.

I am not aware of the current problem, but my personal observation is that
there are more often such conflicts and I expect the number to rise in
future.
According my observation the problem is in lack of education in the fields
of logic and rhetoric. The new generation (called milenials or gen Z or
whatever) mostly brainwashed to the political left, but I do not exclude
also the once to the right, are not able to have a meaningful debate.
So what happens - again this is my personal opinion - they are not able to
have a meaningful conversation over an issue and can not solve conflicts.
Thus the only way is to break the communication. Sadly this is observable
also in politics and I hope we do not end up in nuclear war.

The first such experience I had was exactly the KDE project, when it
released version 4. It was not possible to convince the developers that we
need a working desktop and not just shiny one. So I had to abandon KDE.
Since then I had this experience in many different situations especially
with younger people. It is very sad! Again I see this problem mainly in the
education, but it could have also relation to the family a person was
raised in.

All together it is sad that conflicts are not solved for one or another
reason.


--
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

[deloptes]

Marco Möller wrote:

> Asking for transparency to sound like trolling wasn't my intention. I am
> sorry if I wasn't able to find the correct wording for keeping these to
> things distinguishable.
>
> Being a grateful user of Debian, and being in my circle of influence a
> strong advocate of the Debian project, and also of the KDE Plasma
> desktop environment as available in Debian, I do not feel it to be, lets
> say, insolent, if interested in community affairs. Actually, I feel it
> desirable to stay well informed for reinforcing advocacy, and asking for
> transparency is to me a coherent step.
>
> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
> not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
> off obstructively.
> As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old
> discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation.
> Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly
> also questioning if community processes are always taking place
> sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from
> one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement
> from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could
> prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions
> of the present disagreement.

Looking into the details to me it seems exactly as expected. The liberal
**** hijacked Debian as they did and do routinely with many other
organizations. So now the Communist Party of Debian can rule with CoC.
Great job - makes me feel proud of Debian (ironically).
And I can imagine what will happen in the future. Debian will become like
many other companies a victim of its CoC where it is not important to
provide good software but to comply with what the communist party elite
says. This is a pandemic for itself.
I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
expected quality.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 10:52:48AM +0100, deloptes wrote:

[...]

> Looking into the details to me it seems exactly as expected. The liberal

> **** hijacked Debian [...]

This is not helpful. If you value logic as much as you talk about (cf.
your other post), you wouldn't need this narrative of Some Dark
Conspiracy Taking Over The World (TM).

Stick to the things as they are. Accept that there are other people, who
think differently and refrain from characterising everyone you disagree
with as ****.

The people who disagree with you are not a cabal. They just... disagree
with you. Convince them otherwise, using logic.

This is the price we all have to pay to take part in a social endeavour,
as a free software distribution is.

Cheers
--
t

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Thanks for sharing this masterpiece of rhetoric, intellect and
understanding about how things work in Debian.

This was enlightening.

--
PEB

[deloptes]

Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

> Thanks for sharing this masterpiece of rhetoric, intellect and
> understanding about how things work in Debian.
>
> This was enlightening.

you are welcome (I am not stupid, just answering in the same manner)

I do not care what you do in Debian. I use and support the community as long
as it serves my needs.

Also I am ready to ignore all replies as I have found out it is not possible
to have constructive debate with .... well lets keep it for myself.

I simply know how this works - once you have the communists inside, it all
falls apart. Knowing Debian, it will take perhaps another 10y.

So instead of attacking me, just think over.

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> This is not helpful. If you value logic as much as you talk about (cf.
> your other post), you wouldn't need this narrative of Some Dark
> Conspiracy Taking Over The World (TM).
>

No conspiracy - it is a fact.

> Stick to the things as they are. Accept that there are other people, who
> think differently and refrain from characterising everyone you disagree
> with as ****.
>

Same applies in the opposite direction

> The people who disagree with you are not a cabal. They just... disagree
> with you. Convince them otherwise, using logic.
>

Same applies in the opposite direction

> This is the price we all have to pay to take part in a social endeavour,
> as a free software distribution is.

Interestingly there was no such price 15y ago. How comes?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

What did this email add to any useful debate ?...
Did we learn something new ? No
Did we get some useful suggestion ? No

I feel like someone is very frustrated and can't seem to self moderate
himself.

This is probably the part of opensource community that is the most time
consuming and more destructive for all projects, what make serious
people look at us like if we are just a bunch of kids.

What's the goal of sending a email when you repeat twice, same to you.
Talk about facts but never give any (fact = substance, not opinions).

Yes, time have changed since the last 15 years and it has also changed
since the time we used 2400 baud modem, used terminal connected to S/390
and the reign of the PDP-11. Have we adapted our software, I think so.
Why can't we adapt as human ? Some do, other seem to be into doing
retro-computing with their own brain.

--
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 04:52, deloptes wrote:

> Marco Möller wrote:
>
>> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
>> not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
>> off obstructively.
>> As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old
>> discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation.
>> Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly
>> also questioning if community processes are always taking place
>> sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from
>> one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement
>> from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could
>> prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions
>> of the present disagreement.
>

> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
> future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
> expected quality.

This is a mailing list, not a airport. No need to announce any departure.
If you feel there's something better then go for your own faith.

The basis of community based software is pretty simple :
If you ain't happy you have two possibility
1. Use something else
2. Make a fork and do the modification you feel like needed

That's all the spirit behind GPL / LGPL.

No need to bring in politics and other ideas that only live inside your
mind.

Maybe you are still living under the ruling of McCarthyism ?

Thanks for the show, you seem very good at writing scripts so why don't
you now try to write code and fill in what's needed to make the software
meet your need.

I won't be the only one happy to see the new distribution that you will
be the master head behind. Hope you'll be reactive with bug fixes and
all the problems you expect other to do for you.

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> I feel like someone is very frustrated and can't seem to self moderate
> himself.
>
> This is probably the part of opensource community that is the most time
> consuming and more destructive for all projects, what make serious
> people look at us like if we are just a bunch of kids.
>
> What's the goal of sending a email when you repeat twice, same to you.
> Talk about facts but never give any (fact = substance, not opinions).
>
> Yes, time have changed since the last 15 years and it has also changed
> since the time we used 2400 baud modem, used terminal connected to S/390
> and the reign of the PDP-11. Have we adapted our software, I think so.
> Why can't we adapt as human ? Some do, other seem to be into doing
> retro-computing with their own brain.

You are not worth spending even this one minute to discuss anything - thats
the point!

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 06:17, mick crane wrote:
>>
>> All together it is sad that conflicts are not solved for one or another
>> reason.
>

> This is probably an accurate observation.
> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that
> software got removed from the repository because of variable names.
>
> mick

You are right with this one.
Whatever reason, that's a huge problem with most opensource project.
That is having social problem between people put halt to good software
project.

When you run a business, you have some power to push people into working
together but when it's a game of "take what I do or I'll go away" you
are either in the position of accepting contribution of someone (and
accepting his personality) or you have to push away some much needed
contribution (because you believe there would be a conflict that would
cause problem to your project, either active conflict or one that could
arise).

People take it a bit like a religious belief and it's quite hard to make
them accept choice they don't like, even if it's a majority choice.

You see this with the desktop war (KDE vs Gnome), the service manager
(SystemD vs Init), packaging system (RPM vs DPK vs TGZ vs ...).

If all this split energy was put into one project we'd had the best OS
distribution ever, with no security problem, the most up to date package
and much more. Because by splitting every time something goes bad,
there's redundant job done on many different project that could be done
only once.

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote:
> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that software
> got removed from the repository because of variable names.

If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was
removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful.

This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):

https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784

If you are referring to some other package, I'm not recalling it.
Can you remind me which one it was please?

Cheers,

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

deloptes <emanoil...@deloptes.org> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 11:38:21+0100:

> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing this masterpiece of rhetoric, intellect and
>> understanding about how things work in Debian.
>>
>> This was enlightening.
>
> you are welcome (I am not stupid, just answering in the same manner)
>
> I do not care what you do in Debian. I use and support the community as long
> as it serves my needs.

You do not care but still take plenty time to post a very long paragraph
full of nonsense which brings nothing relevant to the discussion, and
shows that you are also able to lack that ability you claim having to
have a constructive debate instead of asserting, without a shred of
argument, mocking, diminishing what you *guess* is happening.

This is rich.

> Also I am ready to ignore all replies as I have found out it is not possible
> to have constructive debate with .... well lets keep it for myself.

You should have probably started with not posting at all, as your mails
don't make you looking like trying to have any sort of constructive
debate.

> I simply know how this works - once you have the communists inside, it all
> falls apart. Knowing Debian, it will take perhaps another 10y.

I guess this is another attempt at having a constructive debate?

> So instead of attacking me, just think over.

I did, and I stand my point: there's nothing to save in your last
attempts to make a statement.

--
PEB

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 06:52, mick crane wrote:

> That'll be it.
So it was nothing then...
Sorry but this only spark fire. And if you are concerned as you say then
you ain't helping much here.
>
> mick

[Andy Smith]

Hi Mick,

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:52:12AM +0000, mick crane wrote:
> On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote:

> > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote:
> > > I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that
> > > software
> > > got removed from the repository because of variable names.
> >
> > If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was
> > removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful.
> >
> > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
> > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):
> >
> > https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784
>

> That'll be it.

Thanks for confirming. So would you like to retract your statement
that it was removed "because of variable names"?

And hopefully now that's cleared up you will feel better about
Debian's direction of travel.

Cheers,
Andy

[deloptes]

Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

> You do not care but still take plenty time to post a very long paragraph
> full of nonsense which brings nothing relevant to the discussion, and
> shows that you are also able to lack that ability you claim having to
> have a constructive debate instead of asserting, without a shred of
> argument, mocking, diminishing what you *guess* is happening.

I do not know you and I do not insult you, so why you are doing this?
Oh, let me tell you I do not care at all. I learned to distance my self from
offends such as yours. To be honest I am fed up of guys like you.
And let me tell you something as well - I did not want to have any kind of
argumentative discussion here. I just regret the ability to have one in
general. And you are best proof of it. And this is why people like Norbert
Preining are leaving.

If you want to have one debate, you can ask for it, but hey - you are one of
those smart, morally superior *** *****, who know they are better. So you
exactly prove what I was saying.
I refuse to come down to that level of debate. If you want to have one, do
it properly - not here and not now. I enjoy my weekend, I hope you do too.

I even do not expect you will understand what I am saying - well obviously
you do not. I hope you can understand and I also forgive you, if you can
not because you are younger (although with 30 you could perform better).

Once you wake up in a full totalitarian system you yourself created, you
will probably and hopefully understand what I was saying, but first it will
be too late and second at the moment any discussion with you is pointless.

It is disappointing that people like you demand respect, but are not ready
to give such. I am sorry for you.

[Andy Smith]

Hi delptes,

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 01:30:03PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> I do not know you and I do not insult you

> I am fed up of guys like you.

> you are one of those smart, morally superior *** *****, who know they are better.

> I even do not expect you will understand what I am saying

> a full totalitarian system you yourself created

> at the moment any discussion with you is pointless.

> It is disappointing that people like you demand respect

Please stop.

Thanks,

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 07:30, deloptes wrote:
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>
>> You do not care but still take plenty time to post a very long paragraph
>> full of nonsense which brings nothing relevant to the discussion, and
>> shows that you are also able to lack that ability you claim having to
>> have a constructive debate instead of asserting, without a shred of
>> argument, mocking, diminishing what you *guess* is happening.
>
> I do not know you and I do not insult you, so why you are doing this?
> Oh, let me tell you I do not care at all. I learned to distance my self from
> offends such as yours. To be honest I am fed up of guys like you.
> And let me tell you something as well - I did not want to have any kind of
> argumentative discussion here. I just regret the ability to have one in
> general. And you are best proof of it. And this is why people like Norbert
> Preining are leaving.
>
> If you want to have one debate, you can ask for it, but hey - you are one of
> those smart, morally superior *** *****, who know they are better. So you
> exactly prove what I was saying.
> I refuse to come down to that level of debate. If you want to have one, do
> it properly - not here and not now. I enjoy my weekend, I hope you do too.
>
> I even do not expect you will understand what I am saying - well obviously
> you do not. I hope you can understand and I also forgive you, if you can
> not because you are younger (although with 30 you could perform better).

Just a note, he's not 30
So stop making a fool of yourself
For someone who don't wanna talk you seem like a really loud mouth
around here.

>
> Once you wake up in a full totalitarian system you yourself created, you
> will probably and hopefully understand what I was saying, but first it will
> be too late and second at the moment any discussion with you is pointless.
>
> It is disappointing that people like you demand respect, but are not ready
> to give such. I am sorry for you.
>
>

--

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

I was not considering keeping up this discussion but it's really too
tempting, so here is a last one!

deloptes <emanoil...@deloptes.org> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 13:30:03+0100:
> I do not know you

But,

> I am fed up of guys like you.

deloptes <emanoil...@deloptes.org> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 13:30:03+0100:
> I do not know you and I do not insult you

Buuuuuuuut,

> you are one of those smart, morally superior *** *****

deloptes <emanoil...@deloptes.org> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 13:30:03+0100:
> I do not know you and I do not insult you

BUUUUUUT,

> I even do not expect you will understand what I am saying - well obviously
> you do not.

Honestly, if I were to summarize what I'm feeling right now, it'd be
something like
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerfulLegitimateBichonfrise-max-1mb.gif

I'm having a lot of fun, but it's the fourth time in a few hours that
you're making a fool of yourself, and if I were to keep up it would
become quite cringe.

I'll therefore stop there (don't refrain to reply one last time, my
basket is still half full).

But to be clear:

> It is disappointing that people like you demand respect, but are not ready
> to give such. I am sorry for you.

I never demanded respect from you, and this one is rich, too.

Enjoy your weekend! :)

--
PEB
FTAOD for others: Norbert did not leave, he got his Debian Member
status revoked by DAM.

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Just a note, he's not 30

https://people.debian.org/~peb/resume.html

but I stop as it is unbearable ... and I am not sure who is playing the
fool.
You are just digging the grave for this awesome project and I hope I am
wrong. But it could be just evolution happening infront of our eyes (well
for those who still can clearly see where it is going)

BR

[Greg Wooledge]

> > > > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
> > > > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):
> > > >
> > > > https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784

> If you insist on continuing with this I haven't seen the code that was
> removed and no idea what it does.

You will need to open the URL in a Javascript-enabled browser. Once
you've done so, you can scroll down through the page to see what the
proposed changes were. This shows you the "before" and "after". The
"before" sections are the code which was considered offensive.

> The reports at the time were that it was removed for sexist type variable
> names.
> Was it removed then for Anglo Saxon expletives in the comments ?

No. Nobody really cares about the word "fucking".

It was all about the homophobia.

There's also one user-visible piece of homophobia. It's in the last
section -- an actual message written to the terminal or wherever.

For more details about Debian's decision, see
<https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199#47>.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 05:59:40AM -0500, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>
>
> On 2022-01-23 04:52, deloptes wrote:
> > Marco Möller wrote:
> >

[Marco Moeller]

> >> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
> >> not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
> >> off obstructively.
> >

I provided this late lat night UTC - it was posted on behalf of DAM and
is in this list - subject line starts [SUMMARY STATEMENT]

[deloptes]

> > I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
> > future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
> > ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
> > expected quality.
>

Debian has always been ideologically motivated for the 26+ years I've used it.
Most of the ideology has been around creating a good Linux distribution
based around Free software. Our ideology on licence terms is well known.
The Debian Free Software Guidelines and Social Contract have been out
there as our gold standard. if you're a Debian maintainer or developer,
you're expected to sign up to these as part of the conditions of holding
that status.

Likewise the Code of Conduct: most projects now have a Code of Conduct
attached to them. This one was voted on and accepted by the Debian
developer community. It's fairly straightforward: I reference it in
the FAQ posted here monthly.

Much of it comes down to treating people with respect and being constructive.
This series of posts from you is on the edge of acceptable. Please consider
that this list is publicly archived all over the place: please also
consider that this list, Debian IRC channels and other Debian media
are governed by the Code of Conduct.

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

> This is a mailing list, not a airport. No need to announce any departure.
> If you feel there's something better then go for your own faith.
>
> The basis of community based software is pretty simple :
> If you ain't happy you have two possibility
> 1. Use something else
> 2. Make a fork and do the modification you feel like needed
>
> That's all the spirit behind GPL / LGPL.
>
> No need to bring in politics and other ideas that only live inside your
> mind.
>
> Maybe you are still living under the ruling of McCarthyism ?
>
> Thanks for the show, you seem very good at writing scripts so why don't
> you now try to write code and fill in what's needed to make the software
> meet your need.
>
> I won't be the only one happy to see the new distribution that you will
> be the master head behind. Hope you'll be reactive with bug fixes and
> all the problems you expect other to do for you.
>

The basis of community based software is contributing consstructively to
the community, as you've outlined. Debian is a volunteer organisation -
we can't force people to contribute. When they do, we ask them to be
constructive - to disagree with positive intent and not to dig at each
other - not to push people's buttons just because you can.

That often fails - but we try to make a helpful, constructive atmosphere.
Everyone can get frustrated, annoyed that someone just isn't seeing their
point - angry - at some time or other but that isn't helpful in the long term.

Much of Debian is text based communications: all sorts of people in all sorts
of situations and it's easy to propagate misunderstandings. On the
(increasingly) rare occasions when we get together for something like a
Debconf - we discover we're also a social organisation of real people.
You get to see people and hear them - or think "Wow, XYZ is a giant" or
"Hey ABC has multi-coloured hair - wow, I didn't know that from their
avatar"

We get people sharing with the lists that they're sick in some way, we
mourn with the families of our colleagues who die - we're human. We
get to be happy when people show photos of their brand new baby, or their
hobby - they become three-dimensional. Text messages don't show that -
but attitudes do. With enough time, you flesh out real people behind
the interactions.

> --
> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

With every good wish, as ever,

Andrew Cater

[For and on behalf of the Community Team]

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:03:27 +0100
<to...@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> > Looking into the details to me it seems exactly as expected. The
> > liberal **** hijacked Debian [...]
>
> This is not helpful. If you value logic as much as you talk about (cf.
> your other post), you wouldn't need this narrative of Some Dark
> Conspiracy Taking Over The World (TM).

This isn't very helpful either. What we have here is a difference in
world view. At least one of you is (and possibly both are) wrong.
Neither of you will change the other's mind.

Now, can we kindly stop wasting time and hard drive storage, and get
back to discussing Debian software?

Thank you.

--
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 08:31:29AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:03:27 +0100
> <to...@tuxteam.de> wrote:

[...]

> > This is not helpful [...]

> This isn't very helpful either. What we have here is a difference in
> world view. At least one of you is (and possibly both are) wrong.

You are most probably right on that :)

> Neither of you will change the other's mind.

...and almost surely right on that.

> Now, can we kindly stop wasting time and hard drive storage, and get
> back to discussing Debian software?

Agreed.

Cheers
--
t

[Marco Möller]

Dear Andrew, Dear Debian Account Managers,
I thank you very much for your public response. It is much appreciated,
and not only because of the clear information, that in this particular
case the position of both parties is now public, but specially also
because you answered here on the list to me even though I am simply a
normal user.
We all know that facing controversy with users and with contributors is
a very tough task. You earn my full respect for publicly standing up and
defending the project.

A suggestion which you might want to discuss in the committee(s): maybe
you can consider if in the balancing act between privacy and
transparency there could be space for a bulletin board where the Debian
project publishes by internal committees taken decisions which are
likely to be of interest for the broader community. Maybe on
https://www.debian.org/intro/index#community in the "Debian is a
Community" column is space for another link "Committee Notifications",
or opening a list "debian-committee-announce". The present
https://micronews.debian.org/ "Debian micronews" could stay reserved for
the technical news, while the suggested notification location would
publish community related news. Well, nothing which shall be discussed
here in this thread, just my suggestion to the Debian project.

Thanks a lot, for your above provided response and also for Debian,
Best wishes,
Marco

[local10]

Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net:

> On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from
>>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10
>>>>>

This one is pretty telling:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html

If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way.

Regards,

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 08:16, mick crane wrote:

> If you insist on continuing with this I haven't seen the code that was
> removed and no idea what it does.

> The reports at the time were that it was removed for sexist type
> variable names.
> Was it removed then for Anglo Saxon expletives in the comments ?

I'm just reading the thread and I was able to spot the answer of your
question. You can even spot it yourself... It's some line higher in the
message. Let me copy it for you, so it's easy :

-- This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with
-- thissoftware (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through
-- warning):
--
https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784

Either one of two things :
You don't speak English (where I doubt it's the case)
You lack in good faith in your exchange on the channel.

This make it very annoying for people to see such acting out.
And doesn't help much in progressing any type of debate.

I have no idea what are your plan to reach down the road but you may get
much more than you expect.

>
> mick

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Ian, who was not part of the decision to expel Norbert, went off road,
and you can see that many reminded him that, including DAM members (who
were the ones having decided to remove Norbert from Debian at first):

https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00181.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00184.html

I find this pretty telling, too, but of course, you probably just
accidentally missed it.

--
PEB

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 08:10:26PM +0100, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net:
>
> > On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from
> >>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10
> >>>>>
>
>
> This one is pretty telling:

[...]

I don't know what you want to achieve with this. You don't like Debian?
Either participate and help to change it -- or shut up and go away. What
you are doing looks a lot like... trolling.

> If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way.

You aren't, so the question doesn't pose itself, does it?

Now I'll stop. I might be feeding the troll otherwise.

(And oh, whoever wants to get a more thorough impression: look through all
the thread, and not just through the one message cherry-picked for you).

Cheers
--
tomás

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

You resume it quite right, for community software to go forward there's
a need to have a higher demand on a Code of Conduct and other "social
standards" because the software is socially built if I can say it this way.

This oppose to commercial software or commercial companies. If you don't
like much your job, you'll still contribute because your pay is needed
for you to pay groceries and your home.

When you give your energy to a community based project, you get two
things back. The first is some work done and the second is pride in what
you do. That's it.
Yes in some case maybe your boss benefits from what you contribute to a
project but that's in no way linked to the project itself. This applies
if the business your work for kind of loan you as employee to put hours
on the project.

But even there, there's a even better need for cooperation and this can
only be enforced one way. With a code of conduct.

No one want to invest time in any project to get back a basket of
comment of the type :
There's the red army around
All the problems in the world are caused by democrats
The world is doomed...
etc.

If we'd want such type of comment then we'd watch TV and choose of the
appropriate channel to meet our expectation.

The goal if to have a safe space for everyone to be able to contribute.

Not everyone has the infinite patience you have.

There was a time we'd keep toxic people because they we're good
contributor or had good skills. Now we discovered that this cause more
problem on the long term and even less productivity because other don't
want to join.

This is not part of what's called the past on the line of time.

Thanks for the good work.

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ?
> Regards,

[local10]

Jan 23, 2022, 20:12 by deb...@polynamaude.com:

> You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ?
>

What actions? Based on the message ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html ) it looks like they came up with the verdict first and then started to look for "evidence/actions" to justify the verdict. Pretty pathetic if you ask me but whatever.

Regards,

[Jim Popovitch]

You're reading it wrong. Ian was not part of the decision.

-Jim P.

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

It *could* look like it, but that's not it.

What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some
Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution
to overturn DAM's decision.

In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction
between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR
starts and is voted on.

As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not
part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who
replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine.

You really should look the whole thread, instead of cherry-picking what
serves your idea.

--
PEB

[RP]

Another case of people needing to be spoon fed.

[Norbert Preining]

Hi peb,

> And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian
> Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide.
>
> And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at
> all, for the forementioned reason.

That remains solely at my discretion. I will happily publish what is
necessary to clarify positions and actions.

Enjoy

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert https://www.preining.info
Fujitsu Research + IFMGA Guide + TU Wien + TeX Live
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

[local10]

Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by p...@debian.org:

> What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some
> Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution
> to overturn DAM's decision.
>
> In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction
> between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR
> starts and is voted on.
>
> As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not
> part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who
> replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine.
>

Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed).

Regards,

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux
distribution you may plan to use ?

And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ?
Because if any of them, let say Apache LibreOffice would be badly
managed (as your judgment) then it would be doomed (as your judgment).
So if you want to act fair play in every part of the game then it's not
only the distribution that has to be evaluated but also the whole
system. Because Debian only package software together and if any one of
them would fail, there's no guarantee that any of the Debian members
would pick up to continue development.

Whatever proof you may expect, it was already provided on this mailing
list, many times to you in the threads.

You seem much more interested in finding objectionable action taken than
to saying thanks for the job done.
What have you contributed lately ?

[local10]

Jan 23, 2022, 23:58 by deb...@polynamaude.com:

>
>
>> Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed).
>>
> Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux
> distribution you may plan to use ?
>
> And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ?
>

I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?

Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point instead of facts.

Anyhow, I've heard enough.

[max]

January 22, 2022 1:52:16 PM CET "Marco Möller" <ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:

> Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the reasoning for their decisions.

Indeed. In the US, one can demand to read the archived emails of public officials (not just mailing lists)

Why does Debian need "private" mailing lists? What is it hiding from the public?

--
Sent with https://mailfence.com
Secure and private email

[RP]

On 1/23/22 16:37, max wrote:
> January 22, 2022 1:52:16 PM CET "Marco Möller" <ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:
>
>> Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the reasoning for their decisions.
> Indeed. In the US, one can demand to read the archived emails of public officials (not just mailing lists)
>
> Why does Debian need "private" mailing lists? What is it hiding from the public?
>

Maybe taking it a bit too far but go ahead and file a lawsuit.  In the
pursuit truth and justice.

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 19:27, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 23:58 by deb...@polynamaude.com:
>
>>
>>
>>> Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed).
>>>
>> Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux
>> distribution you may plan to use ?
>>
>> And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ?
>>
>
> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?

What about this for a answer....
What we call disciplinary record (in the human resources world it's
called this way) is something private, same as the deliberation of a
sanction to impose. Only the judgement is public (rule of natural justice).

Why would you be entitled to have such information ?
Anyway, I wasn't part of anything regarding the action taken. But I've
seen this answered many times on the mailing list and you seem to be
asking again and again.

>
> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point instead of facts.
>
> Anyhow, I've heard enough.
>

We've all heard enough of this unproductive debate.

This was my last intervention on this matter.
As part of a group or a society as a whole, we have to accept decision
taken that we don't always agree to but that we have agreed to the rules
behind such decision.

The use of the whole Debian infrastructure mean you agree to the Debian
Code of Conduct. The said code was used to take action by the specific
actors that led to both the decision and it's consequences.
By using the mailing list, you agree upon accepting the Debian Code of
Conduct.

The time is over when it was acceptable for people to act in anti-social
behavior but that we put sunglasses over blind eye because such person
was considered of good technical expertise.

If Linus Torvals was able to look upon himself and admit that time have
changed then maybe it's time for others to follow his example. And I'm
not saying to act rude like he did but to see that time have changed
(for the better or worse, this is not the question here).

You guys seem to take this same as if it was a religious matter. So it's
real hard to have any discussion. Ever when we show a track of evidence,
you don't even look at them or simply cherry pick what you feel.

Sincerely,

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 19:37, max wrote:
> January 22, 2022 1:52:16 PM CET "Marco Möller" <ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:
>
>> Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the reasoning for their decisions.
>
> Indeed. In the US, one can demand to read the archived emails of public officials (not just mailing lists)
>

None here are public officials, this is a private corporation even if
it's of public utility.

And even public officials, you can get their mail but there will still
be private information kept private.

> Why does Debian need "private" mailing lists? What is it hiding from the public?
>

If all would be public you'd be the first complaining and saying that
it's so rude to talk about specific case, before a decision is made and
share the information publicly.

If there's a private sharing of information then haven't it ever passed
thru your mind that it can be related to the need to keep confidential
information ? For example, private and personal information regarding
someone.

The same as a jury decision is public, the deliberate are not.

Oh, by the way, nice to meet you ! Seems odd that you are new to this
mailing list and have some much interest in this debate. And so close on
the timeline since someone else had left...

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 21:27, deloptes wrote:

> local10 wrote:
>
>> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things
>> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?
>>
>> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more
>> interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the
>> matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive
>> and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point
>> instead of facts.
>>
>> Anyhow, I've heard enough.
>

> yes, it is meaningless - as I mentioned it looks like Debian is being indeed
> hijacked and Polyna is good example of liberal left that you can not talk
> to - never gives up and do not provide logical or meaningful discussions.
Could you please stop bringing up politics and unrelated subject.

This seems to me close to harassment.

You have been asked to stop this more than once.

There's no such thing as liberal and leftist in this story. Whatever
side you are (right or left) both are elected.

You have no such clue as who I vote for or whatsoever of my personal
life. So stop acting out like a spoon fed child.

>
> In fact it is impossible to find a common ground. As Charles Curley it is a
> difference in the world view. I just hope that people grow up and learn how
> important it is to be cooperative.
>
> In fact just recently something similar happened to an honored professor who
> is famous for his contributions to argumentation theory. Someone censored
> an article of his by simply removing it from their scholar forum.
> Fortunately this someone was fired in the case. It shows how far we've gone
> and I am afraid the future will be even worse. I hope I am wrong.
>

Thank you

[deloptes]

local10 wrote:

> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things
> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?
>
> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more
> interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the
> matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive
> and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point
> instead of facts.
>
> Anyhow, I've heard enough.

yes, it is meaningless - as I mentioned it looks like Debian is being indeed
hijacked and Polyna is good example of liberal left that you can not talk
to - never gives up and do not provide logical or meaningful discussions.

In fact it is impossible to find a common ground. As Charles Curley it is a
difference in the world view. I just hope that people grow up and learn how
important it is to be cooperative.

In fact just recently something similar happened to an honored professor who
is famous for his contributions to argumentation theory. Someone censored
an article of his by simply removing it from their scholar forum.
Fortunately this someone was fired in the case. It shows how far we've gone
and I am afraid the future will be even worse. I hope I am wrong.

[max]

January 24, 2022 2:23:12 AM CET Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <deb...@polynamaude.com> wrote:

> None here are public officials, this is a private corporation even if it's of public utility.

Nor was I suggesting otherwise.

I'm just saying that it's odd for a moralistic organization like Debian to be less transparent than the US government.

> Seems odd that you are new to this mailing list and have some much interest in this debate.

Why is it odd? I have a moderate amount of interest. I sent one email.

> And so close on the timeline since someone else had left...

Who's "someone"? Are you saying I signed up when someone else stopped posting? Is it suspicious? Have you noticed anyone else signing up around the same time? Better be careful. They are out there. They come at night!

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 21:39, max wrote:
> January 24, 2022 2:23:12 AM CET Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <deb...@polynamaude.com> wrote:
>
>> None here are public officials, this is a private corporation even if it's of public utility.
>
> Nor was I suggesting otherwise.
>
> I'm just saying that it's odd for a moralistic organization like Debian to be less transparent than the US government.
>
>> Seems odd that you are new to this mailing list and have some much interest in this debate.
>
> Why is it odd? I have a moderate amount of interest. I sent one email.

And your main interest regarding Debian, as someone who's new here is....
The arguments relating the faith of a decision concerning a long term
developer.

You don't have other interest ? This seem to be the only thing you
talked about and never asked a question on another subject.

Maybe you shall learn about a community *BEFORE* making opinion.
A bit like learning to program a language *BEFORE* trying to compile code.

>
>> And so close on the timeline since someone else had left...
>
> Who's "someone"? Are you saying I signed up when someone else stopped posting? Is it suspicious? Have you noticed anyone else signing up around the same time? Better be careful. They are out there. They come at night!
>

No they won't come tonight. Monster only knock on my door the 31st of
October.

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> This seems to me close to harassment.

its just popcorn but you'll obviously never get it.

please stop as well and thank you in advance

[max]

January 24, 2022 3:44:51 AM CET Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <deb...@polynamaude.com> wrote:

> You don't have other interest ? This seem to be the only thing you talked about and never asked a question on another subject.

You must have missed by post about

https://medium.com/@maxwillb/why-is-debian-not-telling-the-truth-about-its-security-fixes-85f0f85f19a0

just the other day.

[max]

For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian developers voted not to censure him. https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a double standard, but whatever.

BTW, Norbert, I have used TeX on Debian many times. So let me take this opportunity to say thanks.

[harry...@tutanota.com]

24 Jan 2022, 19:52 by maxw...@mailfence.com:

> For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian developers voted not to censure him. https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a double standard, but whatever.
>
> BTW, Norbert, I have used TeX on Debian many times. So let me take this opportunity to say thanks.
>

And so say all of us!
Cheers!

Harry.

[deloptes]

max wrote:

> For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian
> developers voted not to censure him.
> https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a double
> standard, but whatever.

If you engage in such discussion, you are ready to fail. There is no force
in this universe to tell me not to use the pronouns he and she based on
biological sex.
The opposite is complete madness: I recommend listening to Jordan Peterson
on this subject.
I doubt RMS is authority in this field. He has opinion and this is it - he
and not only he - no one has the authority to tell you or me how to speak.
Language is to help us understand each other. Obviously someone does not
want to admit to this basic rule and wants us to roll over into the
Overtone window. It is absolutely unnecessary discussion. J. Peterson
refuses to accept, I refuse and many others. It is perfectly OK. I have the
same rights as you do. Period.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Can I please remind readers and posters:

Communication on this list, on IRC and on other Debian media are bound
by the Debian mailing list code of conduct, the Debian IRC code of conduct
and, above all, by the Debian Code of Conduct.

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
https://www.debian.org/support#irc
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines
https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

Action can and will be taken by listmasters if appropriate.
Please also report issues with conduct to the Community Team

With thanks for your attention,

Andrew Cater
[For and on behalf of the Debian Community Team]

[Charlie Gibbs]

On Mon Jan 24 08:51:46 2022 max <maxw...@mailfence.com> wrote:

> For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they",
> and Debian developers voted not to censure him.
> https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
> Seems like a double standard, but whatever.

I've bookmarked that web page. I largely agree with RMS on this one.
(Although regarding his "y'all" comment, a Texan once explained to me
that "y'all" is singular; the plural is "all y'all".)

This PC 2.0 fad (like PC 1.0 in the early 1990s) has gotten out of hand.
(My favourite riposte from the PC 1.0 era is "s/h/it".)

IMHO "they" is plural. Period. If we want genderless pronouns (and
I agree that we seem to need them) we should create something new,
rather than indulging in a grotesque form of operator overloading.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-07-21

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs |
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | WOKE: Without Originality,
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Knowledge, or Experience
/ \ if you read it the right way. |

[Roberto C. Sánchez]

Andrew,

I am very concerned by your message and the signal it seems to be
communicating. The links you provided do not seem to describe any sort
of boundary or misbehavior which appears to be at issue in deloptes's
message. The most egregious thing seems to be the continuation of an
off-topic thread. There many contributors to that particular problem in
this case in addition to delpotes.

Could you perhaps describe precisely what offense was caused or what
boundary was skirted in this instance?

In the future, messages such as yours would appear less menacing and
more constructive with this additional bit of information added.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sánchez

[Tom Browder]

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 11:36 Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@surfnaked.ca> wrote:

On Mon Jan 24 08:51:46 2022 max <maxw...@mailfence.com> wrote:

…

Amen, brother!

-Tom

[Roberto C. Sánchez]

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 09:50:45AM -0800, RP wrote:
> >
> This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. 

By that, I presume you are referring to "The mailing lists exist to
foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic
messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome" from the mailing
list code of conduct. I agree that this thread has become rather
off-topic for this list.

> If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and posters". 

It does say that. However, his choice of quoting sends a different
message. Hence my request for additional information about the specific
offense that prompted the warning.

> This is for everyone.
>
There are ways to send messages intended "for everyone" and Andrew's
message seems (unintentionally, I assume) to single out particular
invidual in a somewhat threatning way.

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 12:50, RP wrote:

> This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. 

> If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and

> posters".  This is for everyone.
>

Copy of CoC :
1 - The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian.

Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not

welcome.

2 - Do not use foul language; besides, some people receive the lists via
packet radio, where swearing is illegal.

3 - Try not to flame; it is not polite.

[RP]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Du, 23 ian 22, 10:52:48, deloptes wrote:
>
> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
> future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
> expected quality.

Typically such (mostly off-topic) threads on d-u happen right before a
major Debian release, when everybody is waiting for the new stable and
there aren't many technical questions.

For this thread to happen so shortly *after* a major release, to me this
indicates there aren't many problems with bullseye \o/.


Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

[RP]

On 1/24/22 11:35, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 23 ian 22, 10:52:48, deloptes wrote:
>> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
>> future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
>> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
>> expected quality.

Honestly, why do you even post this?  Noone is preventing anyone from
trying or using other distros.  Noone should treat Debian or Linux or
any other distro as anything more than a tool.

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 24 ian 22, 01:37:55, max wrote:
> January 22, 2022 1:52:16 PM CET "Marco Möller" <ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:
>
> > Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the reasoning for their decisions.
>
> Indeed. In the US, one can demand to read the archived emails of
> public officials (not just mailing lists)

Does a foreign citizen enjoy the same right?

The various delegated teams (including DAM) ultimately answer only to
Debian Project Members, all of which do have access to debian-private.

(see the Debian Project's Constitution for details)

As users we "only" get to enjoy the results of their labour, for free.

> Why does Debian need "private" mailing lists? What is it hiding from the public?

There's this thing called "privacy", especially of the person directly
affected.

In some countries there are even laws regulating that (e.g. the EU GDPR)
and publicly sharing sensitive information about other persons is
illegal.

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Norbert Preining <nor...@preining.info> wrote on 24/01/2022 at 00:09:10+0100:

> Hi peb,
>
>> And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian
>> Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide.
>>
>> And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at
>> all, for the forementioned reason.
>
> That remains solely at my discretion. I will happily publish what is
> necessary to clarify positions and actions.
>
> Enjoy

Hi Norbert,

Luckily I used the word "should", because, clearly, we all know that
respecting the privacy of private lists is a moral contract.

So, while this would be bad-mannered, of course, you can publish
private mails, I doubt anyone would go in court for that.

But still, you shouldn't.

--
PEB

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

local10 <loc...@tutanota.com> wrote on 24/01/2022 at 00:32:10+0100:

> Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by p...@debian.org:
>
>> What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some
>> Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution
>> to overturn DAM's decision.
>>
>> In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction
>> between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR
>> starts and is voted on.
>>
>> As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not
>> part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who
>> replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine.
>>
>
> Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible

> things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to

> demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if
> Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term
> developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is
> doomed).
>

> Regards,

Debian's leadership was no part of the decision to remove Norbert.

The task (and right) to decide who is or not a member of the project is
Consitutionally[0] delegated to a group of Developers named Debian
Account Managers. They're the only one able to take such decision, and
so they did.

There is no public list of the things that motivated their decision, and
you'll have to deal with that, as it doesn't seem that it will change.

Regards,

[0] https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution

--
PEB

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 14:35, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 23 ian 22, 10:52:48, deloptes wrote:
>>
>> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
>> future. Not because I care that much about the **** CoC, but because the
>> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
>> expected quality.
>
> Typically such (mostly off-topic) threads on d-u happen right before a
> major Debian release, when everybody is waiting for the new stable and
> there aren't many technical questions.
>
> For this thread to happen so shortly *after* a major release, to me this
> indicates there aren't many problems with bullseye \o/.
>

You have a great news for all of us !
Debian's the best and most stable distribution I have know of.

I didn't have problem with Bullseye...
But didn't have problem with Buster either...
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

[Norbert Preining]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> moral contract.

Moral? Haven't seen that in the last months or years.
Riding the moral horse after having waded through so much stuff.

That is krass.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert https://www.preining.info
Fujitsu Research + IFMGA Guide + TU Wien + TeX Live
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

I'll leave that ranting and these barely masked attempts to paint yourself as a victim to you.

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
From my phone