Re: Trouble upgrading Debian

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Sep 04, 2021 at 11:04:49PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> So, i should to 2 upgrades: one to Debian 10, and one more to Debian 11.
> Fine. And for each one, the steps are:

> But after my first edition to sources.list, apt update fails. I have
> tried apt-get update to, but it also fails for the apparently same reason.
>
> What should i do to solve this?

Start by reading the error message. If you can't understand it, then
paste it here.

[Dedeco Balaco]

Hello,

today, i started to upgrade my computer from Debian 9 (Stretch) to Debian 11 (Bullseye). I had some trouble finding what i wanted to do, a completely internet based upgrade, if possible. In the Debian documention, i did not find this explanation. It says it can be done, but it does not explain how to do it.

So, i opened the following thread. Do not read it now, there are more things i will say here, first.

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677

In the thread, I was advised to not upgrade from Debian 9 to 11 in one step, because "jumping 2 releases will probably result in MASSIVE breakage". This should be in the official documentation, no? If there is this risk, it must be.

So, i should to 2 upgrades: one to Debian 10, and one more to Debian 11. Fine. And for each one, the steps are:

1. Disable all third party repositories.

2. Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to reflect the next distribution i will have. Directly, this is just changing all "stretch" occurencies to "buster"; or all "buster" to "bullseye", in the second upgrade.

3. apt update

4. apt upgrade

5. apt full-upgrade

[Dedeco Balaco]

[David Wright]

On Sat 04 Sep 2021 at 23:04:49 (-0300), Dedeco Balaco wrote:
>
> today, i started to upgrade my computer from Debian 9 (Stretch) to
> Debian 11 (Bullseye). I had some trouble finding what i wanted to do, a
> completely internet based upgrade, if possible. In the Debian
> documention, i did not find this explanation. It says it can be done,
> but it does not explain how to do it.
>
> So, i opened the following thread. Do not read it now, there are more
> things i will say here, first.
>
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677
>
> In the thread, I was advised to not upgrade from Debian 9 to 11 in one
> step, because "jumping 2 releases will probably result in MASSIVE
> breakage". This should be in the official documentation, no? If there is
> this risk, it must be.

Yes, in the Release Notes. You can download the appropriate version from
https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/releasenotes

The warning is in § 4.2.1. It's recursive, so when you go back to
buster's, it has the same warning (§ 4.2), and the same for stretch,
jessie, and so on.

> So, i should to 2 upgrades: one to Debian 10, and one more to Debian 11.
> Fine. And for each one, the steps are:
>
> 1. Disable all third party repositories.
>
> 2. Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to reflect the next distribution i will
> have. Directly, this is just changing all "stretch" occurencies to
> "buster"; or all "buster" to "bullseye", in the second upgrade.

No, follow the Release Notes. For example, you should update and
upgrade the current version before you change sources.list, as the
main upgrade should be made from the latest point-release.

> 3. apt update
>
> 4. apt upgrade
>
> 5. apt full-upgrade
>
> But after my first edition to sources.list, apt update fails. I have
> tried apt-get update to, but it also fails for the apparently same reason.
>
> What should i do to solve this?

Presumably you need help here, so posting the error message is needed.
But do read the Release Notes (buster's in the first instance):
if you follow them carefully, it's possible you won't get failures.

Cheers,
David.

[piorunz]

On 05/09/2021 05:27, Dedeco Balaco wrote:

> What should i do to solve this?

You reposted your question two hours later, so I repost the solution and
CC you as well.

1. Start by reading the error message. If you can't understand it, then
paste it here. As Greg Wooledge already said.

2. Disable colouring e-mails in your Thunderbird. Or disable HTML
e-mails all together, use plain text e-mail.

--
With kindest regards, piorunz.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

[Dedeco Balaco]

David Wright wrote:

On Sat 04 Sep 2021 at 23:04:49 (-0300), Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> 
> today, i started to upgrade my computer from Debian 9 (Stretch) to
> Debian 11 (Bullseye). I had some trouble finding what i wanted to do, a
> completely internet based upgrade, if possible. In the Debian
> documention, i did not find this explanation. It says it can be done,
> but it does not explain how to do it.
> 
> So, i opened the following thread. Do not read it now, there are more
> things i will say here, first.
> 
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677

> 
> In the thread, I was advised to not upgrade from Debian 9 to 11 in one
> step, because "jumping 2 releases will probably result in MASSIVE
> breakage". This should be in the official documentation, no? If there is
> this risk, it must be.

Yes, in the Release Notes. You can download the appropriate version from

https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/releasenotes

The warning is in § 4.2.1. It's recursive, so when you go back to
buster's, it has the same warning (§ 4.2), and the same for stretch,
jessie, and so on.

Thank you. I did not imagine this would happen. It is the first time, in my life, that I am upgrading Debian this way.

> So, i should to 2 upgrades: one to Debian 10, and one more to Debian 11.
> Fine. And for each one, the steps are:
> 
> 1. Disable all third party repositories.
> 

I already did this.

> 2. Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to reflect the next distribution i will
> have. Directly, this is just changing all "stretch" occurencies to
> "buster"; or all "buster" to "bullseye", in the second upgrade.

No, follow the Release Notes. For example, you should update and
upgrade the current version before you change sources.list, as the
main upgrade should be made from the latest point-release.

Mmm... so, I should also 'apt upgrade' with Debian 9 (Stretch) sources.list? This is different from many directions I found in the web.

> 3. apt update
> 
> 4. apt upgrade
> 
> 5. apt full-upgrade
> 
> But after my first edition to sources.list, apt update fails. I have
> tried apt-get update to, but it also fails for the apparently same reason.
> 
> What should i do to solve this?

Presumably you need help here, so posting the error message is needed.
But do read the Release Notes (buster's in the first instance):
if you follow them carefully, it's possible you won't get failures.

I want to upgrade to Debian 10 (as a step to Debian 11), but I am having trouble with some signature. Let me show a full description. In my first try, I was not with an updated Debian 9. Someone asked me that, and then I tried to repeat everything after updating things. So, I

1. Restored sources.list to be what Debian 9 stretch uses

2. Asked 'synaptic' to reload the package database

3. Tried to do 'apt update' as root, but it does not work. GPG signature error.

21:18:54 [  0] root@compo: /etc/apt

# apt-mark hold firefox-esr firefox-esr-l10n-pt-br thunderbird
 thunderbird-l10n-pt-br 

firefox-esr set on hold.

firefox-esr-l10n-pt-br set on hold.

thunderbird set on hold.

thunderbird-l10n-pt-br set on hold.



21:46:26 [  0] root@debian: /etc/apt

# apt update

Get:1 http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease [65.4
kB]

Err:1 http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease                     

  The following signatures couldn't be verified because the
  public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 112695A0E562B32A
  NO_PUBKEY 54404762BBB6E853

Get:2 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster InRelease [122 kB]          

Get:3 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease
[51.9 kB]

Err:3 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease    

  The following signatures couldn't be verified because the
  public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138
  NO_PUBKEY 0E98404D386FA1D9

Get:4 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Sources [7,836
kB]

Get:5 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
[7,907 kB]

Get:6 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
[7,863 kB]

Get:7 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-pt_BR
[683 kB]

Get:8 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-en
[5,968 kB]

Get:9 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-pt
[309 kB]

Get:10 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Contents
(deb) [37.3 MB]

Get:11 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Contents
(deb) [37.3 MB]

Reading package lists... Done                                                  

W: GPG error: http://security.debian.org buster/updates
InRelease: The following signatures couldn't be verified because
the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 112695A0E562B32A
NO_PUBKEY 54404762BBB6E853

E: The repository 'http://security.debian.org buster/updates
InRelease' is not signed.

N: Updating from such a repository can't be done securely, and
is therefore disabled by default.

N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user
configuration details.

W: GPG error: http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates
InRelease: The following signatures couldn't be verified because
the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138
NO_PUBKEY 0E98404D386FA1D9

E: The repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates
InRelease' is not signed.

N: Updating from such a repository can't be done securely, and
is therefore disabled by default.

N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user
configuration details.

21:46:50 [  0] root@debian: /etc/apt

#

So, what can I do to fix this?

Cheers,
David.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Sun, Sep 05, 2021 at 09:01:22PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:

[...]

> I did not receive the Greg answer. The only 3 messages I have in my
> folder now are the 2 you sent, and the one I receive for my message:

Here's the start of the thread:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/09/threads.html#00154

Yes, it's quite possible that your mail takes a bit longer to
appear if you are not subscribed. But it /will/ appear. This
mailing list is open "by design".

Cheers
- t

[Richard Hector]

On 6/09/21 1:20 pm, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> 3. Tried to do 'apt update' as root, but it does not work. GPG signature
> error.
>
>> 21:18:54 [ 0] root@compo: /etc/apt # apt-mark hold firefox-esr
>> firefox-esr-l10n-pt-br thunderbird thunderbird-l10n-pt-br firefox-esr
>> set on hold. firefox-esr-l10n-pt-br set on hold. thunderbird set on
>> hold. thunderbird-l10n-pt-br set on hold. 21:46:26 [ 0] root@debian:

>> /etc/apt # apt update Get:1http://security.debian.org buster/updates
>> InRelease [65.4 kB] Err:1http://security.debian.org buster/updates

>> InRelease The following signatures couldn't be verified because the
>> public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 112695A0E562B32A NO_PUBKEY

>> 54404762BBB6E853 Get:2http://deb.debian.org/debian buster InRelease
>> [122 kB] Get:3http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease
>> [51.9 kB] Err:3http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease

>> The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key
>> is not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138 NO_PUBKEY

>> 0E98404D386FA1D9 Get:4http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main
>> Sources [7,836 kB] Get:5http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main
>> amd64 Packages [7,907 kB] Get:6http://deb.debian.org/debian

>> buster/main i386 Packages [7,863 kB] Get:7
>> http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-pt_BR [683 kB]

>> Get:8http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-en [5,968
>> kB] Get:9http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main Translation-pt [309
>> kB] Get:10http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Contents
>> (deb) [37.3 MB] Get:11http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386

>> Contents (deb) [37.3 MB] Reading package lists... Done W: GPG error:
>> http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease: The following
>> signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not
>> available: NO_PUBKEY 112695A0E562B32A NO_PUBKEY 54404762BBB6E853 E:
>> The repository 'http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease'
>> is not signed. N: Updating from such a repository can't be done
>> securely, and is therefore disabled by default. N: See apt-secure(8)
>> manpage for repository creation and user configuration details. W: GPG
>> error:http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease: The
>> following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is
>> not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138 NO_PUBKEY 0E98404D386FA1D9
>> E: The repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates
>> InRelease' is not signed. N: Updating from such a repository can't be
>> done securely, and is therefore disabled by default. N: See
>> apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user configuration
>> details. 21:46:50 [ 0] root@debian: /etc/apt #

As you can see, the plain text version of your email is not very
readable. I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird
to compose your email as plain text, even if only for list mail.

Cheers,
Richard

[Curt]

On 2021-09-06, Dedeco Balaco <dedeco...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> manpage for repository creation and user configuration details. W: GPG
>> error: http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease: The
>> following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is
>> not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138 NO_PUBKEY 0E98404D386FA1D9
>> E: The repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates
>> InRelease' is not signed. N: Updating from such a repository can't be
>> done securely, and is therefore disabled by default. N: See
>> apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user configuration
>> details. 21:46:50 [ 0] root@debian: /etc/apt #
>
> So, what can I do to fix this?
>

sudo apt-key adv --keyserver hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net:80 --recv-keys 648ACFD622F3D138 0E98404D386FA1D9

I think that's what you have to do (add the missing keys to your ring).
I'm unsure of the proper syntax for adding two keys at once. Maybe
wait for David or Greg for confirmation. Good luck.

[piorunz]

On 06/09/2021 01:01, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> No. I do not want to edit emails with the traditional "black over white"
> area. And I have seen that the colors I send can be ignored. And
> Thunderbird also sends a pure text message together with the HTML
> messages I prefer to use.
>
> Thank you

I will feel free to ignore your e-mails then, as I do not intend to tire
my eyes reading grey on red, just because you decided to use HTML in
your e-mails and you like these colours. I don't. Good luck with your
enquiry.

[John Hasler]

Curt writes:
> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird
> to compose your email as plain text

Or even as "normal" HTML.
--
John Hasler
jo...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[Dedeco Balaco]

Em 06/09/2021 14:25, John Hasler escreveu:

Curt writes:

I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird 
to compose your email as plain text

Or even as "normal" HTML.

If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default) background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to deal with it. Things evolve. Being able to use bold, italic, underscore is a minimum of "new" things that help a lot to compose good messages. If Thunderbird has a problem when writing the automatic text messages, together with the composed HTML ones, this is a reason to *fix* it, not to never use anymore. I have installed another mail manager in my computer: but it is bad, pretty horrible. It does not show HTML messages. It does not compose HTML messages. And it is pretty counter intuitive to configure, in several parts. It seems handy, have nice things. But if you do not know them, or are not familiar enough with "something", to be able to understand it, you cannot use them. Its name is Claws Mail. I bet the most important people in this list love it. So, Thunderbird has some problems (and the HTML thing is not a problem to me), but it still the best mail manager for me.

Regards

[Dan Ritter]

Dedeco Balaco wrote:
>
> Em 06/09/2021 14:25, John Hasler escreveu:

> > Curt writes:
> >> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird
> >> to compose your email as plain text
> >
> > Or even as "normal" HTML.
> >
>

> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> deal with it. Things evolve. Being able to use bold, italic, underscore

Here is reality:

Nobody here is obligated to help you. At all.
If we do, it's out of the goodness of our hearts.
If we don't, it could be:

because we don't know the answer
or
because you are being rude

This is a place where people send questions in plain text and
respond in plain text.

Your response is up to you.

Our responses are up to us.

-dsr-

[piorunz]

On 06/09/2021 21:50, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Here is reality:
>
> Nobody here is obligated to help you. At all.
> If we do, it's out of the goodness of our hearts.
> If we don't, it could be:
>
> because we don't know the answer
> or
> because you are being rude
>
> This is a place where people send questions in plain text and
> respond in plain text.
>
> Your response is up to you.
>
> Our responses are up to us.

I agree, we said enough. Good luck to Dedeco Balaco, and goodbye from
us, kind people.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> deal with it.

Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
on. Just so you know.

For me, your messages seem OK. Mutt is presenting me with readable
text. I don't know what other people are seeing. However, if you're
intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.

[Kenneth Parker]

This comes across as Rich Text Format, a precursor to Microsoft Word.  These files can be sent with a prefix of .rtf, and it is certainly supported in LibreOffice Writer.  I am not sure how it works with email lists, though.

Kenneth Parker

[Kenneth Parker]

Greg, what I saw is Rich Text Format [1], different from html.  I suspect Mutt (as well as gmail) presents it as it, without issue.  But, unfortunately, not all email reader software would see it properly.   

Kenneth Parker

[1] Rich Text Format.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 12:20:26AM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:

> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion. It is also important to note that third
> party sources should be disabled, to avoid possible conflicts or
> problems that should be addressed only after the OS upgrade ends
> successfully.
>
> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after
> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version. So, i ended up with a computer
> with packages and sources.list of Debian 11, but it was not quite that.
> So, i remade all steps. And my first steps were to restore my Debian 9
> sources.list, 'apt update' and 'apt upgrade' it.
>
> A more detailed story is in the thread i pointed in my first message here:
>
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677
>
> Thank you all.
>

Hi Dedaco,

I _think_ that the issue of how to upgrade has been covered.
The release notes cover new features / removed software: the installation
notes cover features of the installation.

https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ has
https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgrade-to-debian-oldrelease
and section 4.2 covers this in detail. The instqallation guide is probably
not so relevant once you have a running Debian system.

Since the release on June 14th or so, this has been extensively covered
in threads here on this list as people have hit problems but I agree, we
could always do more. It has been repeated a few times in different
places that you can't jump a release straightforwardly, so it has to
be 9 -> 10 -> 11.

Having remade all the steps - do you now have a working system now?
[I'm busy fighting with a system that hasn't been upgraded in a while
and has flaky hardware at the moment: it's often hard to see where
problems are coming from when you are in the middle of them.]

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 12:20:26AM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion.

https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#system-status

4.2. Checking APT configuration status

[...]

This procedure also assumes your system has been updated to the latest
point release of stretch. If you have not done this or are unsure,
follow the instructions in Section A.1, “Upgrading your stretch
system”.

Admittedly, it's a bit hard to find if you're only skimming, but you
should be reading the full release notes before upgrading.

> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after
> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version.

Well, after the full-upgrade, but this is a good point. Some of the
services (dbus) require a reboot to restart them. And of course, you'll
still be on the oldold...stable kernel until you reboot.

[David Wright]

On Tue 07 Sep 2021 at 00:20:26 (-0300), Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> Em 06/09/2021 23:48, Kenneth Parker escreveu:

> > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:58 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> > > > If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> > > > background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> > > > background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> > > > list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> > > > deal with it.

Perhaps the forums might suit you better than technical mailing lists.

> > > Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
> > > on.  Just so you know.
> >
> > > For me, your messages seem OK.  Mutt is presenting me with readable
> > > text.  I don't know what other people are seeing.  However, if you're
> > > intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
> > > lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.
> >
> > Greg, what I saw is Rich Text Format [1], different from html.  I
> > suspect Mutt (as well as gmail) presents it as it, without issue.  But,
> > unfortunately, not all email reader software would see it properly.   

As one might expect, mutt can handle multipart/alternative in various
ways, according to how you configure it. AFAICT the emails in question
are sensibly constructed, with text/plain and text/html equivalents.

> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion.

It's already there, as I pointed out and gave the reference for.
In bullseye, it was given even greater prominence by being given
an individual section number.

> It is also important to note that third
> party sources should be disabled, to avoid possible conflicts or
> problems that should be addressed only after the OS upgrade ends
> successfully.

Ditto.

> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after

> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version. So, i ended up with a computer
> with packages and sources.list of Debian 11, but it was not quite
> that.

That is implicit, in that each upgrade is expected to be followed by a
period during which that version is used. Rebooting ensures that any
new kernel is being used.

It's also explicit, in that a system running the previous version's
kernel is not a "pure" system, and unprepared for the next upgrade.

> So, i remade all steps. And my first steps were to restore my Debian 9
> sources.list, 'apt update' and 'apt upgrade' it.

I don't see how that works. Once you've upgraded by one version,
downgrading it again is a non-trivial operation. But I found it
difficult to follow precisely the steps you took.

> A more detailed story is in the thread i pointed in my first message here:
>
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677

I have already looked at that. There seem to be links to other forums,
debian.org, release notes for a different upgrade, etc. So my post,
later in the day, didn't add anything except emphasis: follow the
Release Notes in full. (It seemed that the mailing list was late in
being invited to the party.)

The problem with following random posts on the internet for upgrading
is that each one generally addresses a particular aspect where that OP
expressed some difficulty, but doesn't give the end-to-end method.

Cheers,
David.

[Richard Hector]

On 7/09/21 5:25 am, John Hasler wrote:
> Curt writes:
>> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird
>> to compose your email as plain text

Curt didn't write that; I did. Please be careful with your attributions.

I'm intrigued to know how this mistake happened, however. Were you
perhaps replying to a digest message instead of a normal individual one?

Cheers,
Richard

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 06 sep 21, 16:46:24, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
>
>
> Em 06/09/2021 14:25, John Hasler escreveu:
> > Curt writes:
> >> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird
> >> to compose your email as plain text
> > Or even as "normal" HTML.
>
> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> list cannot do it?

If your mail client is sending both html and plain text most subscribers
will only see the plain text version (unless they go out of their way to
look at the html version).

> I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to

> deal with it. Things evolve. Being able to use *bold*, /italic/,
> _underscore_ is a minimum of "new" things that help a lot to compose
> good messages.

You mean like the markup in the text above? :)

(probably added by Thunderbird for the text version)

While I do agree with you somewhat, as far as I'm aware there is no
agreed upon standard for HTML mail. How the receiving end will display
your message is very much open to interpretation.

Some mail clients might even "lie" to you and show e.g. a sans font when
composing, but the receiving end will display that message with a serif
font (didn't bother to check the source to see which one of them is
"wrong").

> If Thunderbird has a problem when writing the automatic
> text messages, together with the composed HTML ones, this is a reason to

> _**fix**_ it, not to never use anymore.

There should be a setting in Thunderbird to *not* remove "extra" line
breaks (or similar) for the text version, please enable it.

> I have installed another mail
> manager in my computer: but it is bad, pretty horrible. It does not show
> HTML messages. It does not compose HTML messages. And it is pretty
> counter intuitive to configure, in several parts. It seems handy, have
> nice things. But if you do not know them, or are not familiar enough
> with "something", to be able to understand it, you cannot use them. Its
> name is Claws Mail.

Last time I tried it Claws Mail could display (but not compose) HTML
messages, you might need to enable it and/or install some plugin.

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

[Thomas Amm]

On Mon, 2021-09-06 at 16:46 -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:

> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark

> [...]
> Regards
>

Conrats! You have just made it into everybody's kill file.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

A somewhat friendlier answer would go a longer way. Shouting contests
are unnecessary and futile. Moreover, they degrade the mailing list's
quality for everyone.

Maybe the OP really didn't know what they were doing. In any case,
their MUA was doing the correct thing: sending a text part along
with the HTML part as MIME alternative (although we discovered a
bug in the process as well).

You may put whomever you like into your kill file, but wehether
anyone is going to do it is their private business.

Cheers
- t