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alpine mail client with gmx.net as mail provider
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 24, 2015, 5:50:06 AM7/24/15
to
Hi,
after a few weeks of settling i got my Debian 8.1 nearly into
the shape of its deceased predecessor (antique SuSE which died
from southbridge radiator pop-off due to material fatigue).
Two problems remain: alpine with mail provider GMX and /dev/sr1
trying to bite my fingers.
As for the first one:
I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
503.
My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
Does anybody have a alpine configuration which currently works via
SMTP with GMX (a major german mail provider) ?
Or proposals how to watch the SMTP traffic between alpine and
the SMTP server ?
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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after a few weeks of settling i got my Debian 8.1 nearly into
the shape of its deceased predecessor (antique SuSE which died
from southbridge radiator pop-off due to material fatigue).
Two problems remain: alpine with mail provider GMX and /dev/sr1
trying to bite my fingers.
As for the first one:
I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
503.
My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
Does anybody have a alpine configuration which currently works via
SMTP with GMX (a major german mail provider) ?
Or proposals how to watch the SMTP traffic between alpine and
the SMTP server ?
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Celejar
Jul 24, 2015, 7:40:07 AM7/24/15
to
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 11:49:51 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdb...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> after a few weeks of settling i got my Debian 8.1 nearly into
> the shape of its deceased predecessor (antique SuSE which died
> from southbridge radiator pop-off due to material fatigue).
>
> Two problems remain: alpine with mail provider GMX and /dev/sr1
> trying to bite my fingers.
>
> As for the first one:
>
> I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
> It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
> 503.
> My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
>
> Does anybody have a alpine configuration which currently works via
> SMTP with GMX (a major german mail provider) ?
I don't know alpine, but does this help?
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdb...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> after a few weeks of settling i got my Debian 8.1 nearly into
> the shape of its deceased predecessor (antique SuSE which died
> from southbridge radiator pop-off due to material fatigue).
>
> Two problems remain: alpine with mail provider GMX and /dev/sr1
> trying to bite my fingers.
>
> As for the first one:
>
> I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
> It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
> 503.
> My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
>
> Does anybody have a alpine configuration which currently works via
> SMTP with GMX (a major german mail provider) ?
https://github.com/deanproxy/eMail/issues/7
Additionally, you can try playing around with SSL vs. STARTTLS, or port
465 vs. 587
> Or proposals how to watch the SMTP traffic between alpine and
> the SMTP server ?
https://sesblog.amazon.com/post/Tx2XI5HYBCFC959/Debugging-SMTP-Conversations-Part-3-Analyzing-TCP-Packets
FWIW, I use gmx.com (is this the same as your gmx?) with Sylpheed, and
it works fine (port 465 with SSL, no STARTTLS).
Celejar
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 24, 2015, 8:40:06 AM7/24/15
to
Hi,
Celejar wrote:
> https://github.com/deanproxy/eMail/issues/7
Yes. Some client glitch like this one combined with increased
pickiness on server side would explain the problem.
A sequence that works is for example
EHLO scdbackup.webframe.org
MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
AUTH PLAIN
MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
RCPT TO:debia...@lists.debian.org
DATA
QUIT
If i only could bring alpine (or stunnel) to logging the
SMTP traffic.
> https://sesblog.amazon.com/post/Tx2XI5HYBCFC959/Debugging-SMTP-Conversation-Part-3-Analyzing-TCP-Packets
This will teach me more about networking than i ever
wanted to know.
But won't i get to see the encrypted SSL traffic ?
I'd rather need a proxy between alpine and stunnel.
Well, if no experienced alpine users show up (i am actually
used to its predecessor "pine") then i will have to dig into
its source and try to make it verbous.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
Celejar wrote:
> https://github.com/deanproxy/eMail/issues/7
Yes. Some client glitch like this one combined with increased
pickiness on server side would explain the problem.
A sequence that works is for example
EHLO scdbackup.webframe.org
MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
AUTH PLAIN
MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
RCPT TO:debia...@lists.debian.org
DATA
QUIT
If i only could bring alpine (or stunnel) to logging the
SMTP traffic.
> https://sesblog.amazon.com/post/Tx2XI5HYBCFC959/Debugging-SMTP-Conversation-Part-3-Analyzing-TCP-Packets
This will teach me more about networking than i ever
wanted to know.
But won't i get to see the encrypted SSL traffic ?
I'd rather need a proxy between alpine and stunnel.
Well, if no experienced alpine users show up (i am actually
used to its predecessor "pine") then i will have to dig into
its source and try to make it verbous.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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David Wright
Jul 24, 2015, 11:40:07 AM7/24/15
to
Quoting Thomas Schmitt (scdb...@gmx.net):
> I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
> It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
> 503.
> My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
I'm wondering if there's a mismatch in agreement between the client
> I cannot get alpine mail client to send mail via mail.gmx.net:465.
> It reports "Bad sequence of commands" which is probably SMTP error
> 503.
> My own primitive SMTP client does work (by help of stunnel for SSL).
and the server as to when encryption starts. Port 465 should be
encrypted straightaway, whereas others like 25 and 785 are not, so you
can use starttls on them. Perhaps try the same method, just changing
the port?
What about the logs? Alpine allegedly writes .pine-debug files as
pine used to (20 years ago in my case) which should show the
conversation.
Cheers,
David.
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 24, 2015, 1:30:05 PM7/24/15
to
Hi,
David Wright wrote:
> Port 465 should be encrypted straightaway,
I get a connection to the SMTP server directly by this line
in ~/.pinerc:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
or via stunnel to mail.gmx.net:465 at port NNN by
smtp-server=localhost:NNN/user=my_us...@gmx.net
The stunnel port works fine with my own SMTP client which
i need for dealing with some local network and permission
peculiarities.
So encryption is not the problem.
I now tried TLS as proposed by
http://www.cs.duke.edu/csl/security/smtp-auth/pine:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
and also
mail.gmx.net:587/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
(587 is proposed by https://hilfe.gmx.net/sicherheit/ssl.html)
No change in behavior. "Bad sequence of commands", obviously
error 503 sent by the GMX server.
alpine and gmx.net are at odds with the (E)SMTP service.
> What about the logs? Alpine allegedly writes .pine-debug files as
> pine used to (20 years ago in my case) which should show the
> conversation.
None to find in the whole /home tree. But the man page talks
of ~/.pine-debug[1-4]. Will try to enable them.
(Oh yeah the good old times ... 50 MHz CPU, 64 MB RAM, 17" CRT,
200 W electrical power dissipated by noise and hot air.)
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
David Wright wrote:
> Port 465 should be encrypted straightaway,
in ~/.pinerc:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
or via stunnel to mail.gmx.net:465 at port NNN by
smtp-server=localhost:NNN/user=my_us...@gmx.net
The stunnel port works fine with my own SMTP client which
i need for dealing with some local network and permission
peculiarities.
So encryption is not the problem.
I now tried TLS as proposed by
http://www.cs.duke.edu/csl/security/smtp-auth/pine:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
and also
mail.gmx.net:587/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
(587 is proposed by https://hilfe.gmx.net/sicherheit/ssl.html)
No change in behavior. "Bad sequence of commands", obviously
error 503 sent by the GMX server.
alpine and gmx.net are at odds with the (E)SMTP service.
> What about the logs? Alpine allegedly writes .pine-debug files as
> pine used to (20 years ago in my case) which should show the
> conversation.
of ~/.pine-debug[1-4]. Will try to enable them.
(Oh yeah the good old times ... 50 MHz CPU, 64 MB RAM, 17" CRT,
200 W electrical power dissipated by noise and hot air.)
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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David Wright
Jul 26, 2015, 11:50:04 PM7/26/15
to
Quoting Thomas Schmitt (scdb...@gmx.net):
> David Wright wrote:
> > Port 465 should be encrypted straightaway,
>
> I get a connection to the SMTP server directly by this line
> in ~/.pinerc:
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
I assume that you're telling me that this does not work, right?
> David Wright wrote:
> > Port 465 should be encrypted straightaway,
>
> I get a connection to the SMTP server directly by this line
> in ~/.pinerc:
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
(Otherwise you wouldn't have posted the original problem.)
> or via stunnel to mail.gmx.net:465 at port NNN by
> smtp-server=localhost:NNN/user=my_us...@gmx.net
> The stunnel port works fine with my own SMTP client which
> i need for dealing with some local network and permission
> peculiarities.
> So encryption is not the problem.
And what does "works fine" mean? How do I know what's doing
any encryption that *might* be done in this case. You don't
appear to have told alpine to do any.
> I now tried TLS as proposed by
> http://www.cs.duke.edu/csl/security/smtp-auth/pine:
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
> and also
> mail.gmx.net:587/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
> (587 is proposed by https://hilfe.gmx.net/sicherheit/ssl.html)
particularly "verschlüsselte":
'Wenn Ihr Programm die Verschlüsselungsprotokolle SSL und StartTLS
nicht ausdrücklich anbietet, genügt es oft auch, einfach eine
"verschlüsselte" Verbindung zu aktivieren. Das Protokoll wird in
diesem Fall automatisch ausgewählt.'
It seems to suggest some sort of fallback, but how it works I don't know.
> No change in behavior. "Bad sequence of commands", obviously
> error 503 sent by the GMX server.
>
> alpine and gmx.net are at odds with the (E)SMTP service.
starttls. You probably know a lot more about alpine than I do, but I
looked at http://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
and I can't see starttls mentioned:
TLS
Normally, when a new connection is made an attempt is made to
negotiate a secure (encrypted) session using Transport Layer
Security (TLS). If that fails then a non-encrypted connection will
be attempted instead. This is a unary parameter indicating
communication with the server must take place over a TLS
connection. If the attempt to use TLS fails then this parameter
will cause the connection to fail instead of falling back to an
unsecure connection.
/tls
Doesn't the last sentence explain what is happening to your
connection?
Have you tried using mail.gmx.net:465/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
Mind you, I'm not convinced you'll have any joy but I'd be interested
to know. It looked to me as if it wants to see a certificate to let
you connect, and I see no provision in alpine for that either. (Only
for signing emails etc.)
So I still think you need to turn on the logging.
Cheers,
David.
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 2:20:04 AM7/27/15
to
Hi,
i wrote:
> > I get a connection to the SMTP server directly by this line
> > in ~/.pinerc:
> > smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
it reports the error text which i assume is from SMTP error 503
issued by the server.
> > The stunnel port works fine with my own SMTP client
connect to a server and performs an SMTP dialog to
hand over mail headers and a mail body. During the years
it learned some ESMTP because gmx.net more and more drifted
away from plain RFC 821.
So i know one working sequence of SMTP commands and use
it to send this mail.
> How do I know what's doing
> any encryption that *might* be done in this case. You don't
> appear to have told alpine to do any.
My own SMTP client uses the program stunnel for the encryption.
Config file:
client=yes
foreground=yes
debug=5
pid=
sslVersion=all
[gmx_smtp]
accept=30029
connect=mail.gmx.net:465
My client connects to port 30029 and stunnel connects to gmx.net.
I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
So alpine's encryption seems ok, because there happens an SMTP
dialog between alpine and gmx.de.
> I don't see anything on this website about alpine, only pine.
alpine is pine's official rewrite.
http://www.washington.edu/alpine/overview/story.html
GMX published:
If your your program does not explicitly offer the encryption
protocols SSL and StartTLS, it often suffices to simply activate
an "encrypted" connection. The protocol will be chosen
automatically in this case.
> It seems to suggest some sort of fallback, but how it works I don't know.
They obviously refer to any mail client which offers
encryption in some of its menus.
> You probably know a lot more about alpine
Rather not. I always used pine but never dived into its entrails.
> http://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
problems, not connection or encryption.
Further the experiment with alpine and stunnel shows no
difference in behavior. stunnel itself works fine with gmx.de.
465 would be the wrong port, i assume.
Well, i now tried. alpine waits a while and then reports:
[Error sending: Connection failed to mail.gmx.net,465: Connection timed out]
This happens before i get asked by alpine for the password,
which it probably does when the server replies to an early
SMTP command by error 530 "Authentication required".
> Mind you, I'm not convinced you'll have any joy but I'd be interested
> to know. It looked to me as if it wants to see a certificate to let
> you connect, and I see no provision in alpine for that either. (Only
> for signing emails etc.)
Certificate problems look different.
I can tell from running an 8 year old system in today's internet.
> So I still think you need to turn on the logging.
If i only could find some option for that in alpine or stunnel.
Packet sniffers won't help because of encryption.
Still riddling with the obscure /dev/sr1 auto-pull-in, i did
not yet get to looking for alpine's source code.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
i wrote:
> > I get a connection to the SMTP server directly by this line
> > in ~/.pinerc:
> > smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
David Wright wrote:
> I assume that you're telling me that this does not work, right?
Yes. It connects, alpine asks for the SMTP password, and then
> I assume that you're telling me that this does not work, right?
it reports the error text which i assume is from SMTP error 503
issued by the server.
> > The stunnel port works fine with my own SMTP client
> I'm not certain what you mean by your own "SMTP client".
A while ago i had to make a program which uses TCP/IP to
connect to a server and performs an SMTP dialog to
hand over mail headers and a mail body. During the years
it learned some ESMTP because gmx.net more and more drifted
away from plain RFC 821.
So i know one working sequence of SMTP commands and use
it to send this mail.
> How do I know what's doing
> any encryption that *might* be done in this case. You don't
> appear to have told alpine to do any.
Config file:
client=yes
foreground=yes
debug=5
pid=
sslVersion=all
[gmx_smtp]
accept=30029
connect=mail.gmx.net:465
My client connects to port 30029 and stunnel connects to gmx.net.
I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
So alpine's encryption seems ok, because there happens an SMTP
dialog between alpine and gmx.de.
> I don't see anything on this website about alpine, only pine.
http://www.washington.edu/alpine/overview/story.html
GMX published:
> 'Wenn Ihr Programm die Verschlüsselungsprotokolle SSL und StartTLS
> nicht ausdrücklich anbietet, genügt es oft auch, einfach eine
> "verschlüsselte" Verbindung zu aktivieren. Das Protokoll wird in
> diesem Fall automatisch ausgewählt.'
Translation:
> nicht ausdrücklich anbietet, genügt es oft auch, einfach eine
> "verschlüsselte" Verbindung zu aktivieren. Das Protokoll wird in
> diesem Fall automatisch ausgewählt.'
If your your program does not explicitly offer the encryption
protocols SSL and StartTLS, it often suffices to simply activate
an "encrypted" connection. The protocol will be chosen
automatically in this case.
> It seems to suggest some sort of fallback, but how it works I don't know.
encryption in some of its menus.
> You probably know a lot more about alpine
> http://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
> "If the attempt to use TLS fails then this parameter
> will cause the connection to fail instead of falling back to an
> unsecure connection."
> will cause the connection to fail instead of falling back to an
> unsecure connection."
> Doesn't the last sentence explain what is happening to your
> connection?
It does not predict SMTP error 503 which is about protocol
> connection?
problems, not connection or encryption.
Further the experiment with alpine and stunnel shows no
difference in behavior. stunnel itself works fine with gmx.de.
465 would be the wrong port, i assume.
Well, i now tried. alpine waits a while and then reports:
[Error sending: Connection failed to mail.gmx.net,465: Connection timed out]
This happens before i get asked by alpine for the password,
which it probably does when the server replies to an early
SMTP command by error 530 "Authentication required".
> Mind you, I'm not convinced you'll have any joy but I'd be interested
> to know. It looked to me as if it wants to see a certificate to let
> you connect, and I see no provision in alpine for that either. (Only
> for signing emails etc.)
I can tell from running an 8 year old system in today's internet.
> So I still think you need to turn on the logging.
Packet sniffers won't help because of encryption.
Still riddling with the obscure /dev/sr1 auto-pull-in, i did
not yet get to looking for alpine's source code.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Bob Bernstein
Jul 27, 2015, 7:40:04 AM7/27/15
to
I suggest you join the alpine discussion list. The
current developer pretty much "lives" there, and there
is a nice group of subscribers. They talk about this
kind of question all the time.
https://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
--
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'loony' merely because I have a pet halibut? I've heard
tell that Sir Gerald Nabarro has a pet prawn called Simon
- you wouldn't call him a loony!
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current developer pretty much "lives" there, and there
is a nice group of subscribers. They talk about this
kind of question all the time.
https://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
--
I am not a loony. Why should I be tarred with the epithet
'loony' merely because I have a pet halibut? I've heard
tell that Sir Gerald Nabarro has a pet prawn called Simon
- you wouldn't call him a loony!
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David Wright
Jul 27, 2015, 11:40:06 AM7/27/15
to
"see the same effect as with alpine's own encryption". I can't be
certain what works and what fails when you express it like that.
> So alpine's encryption seems ok, because there happens an SMTP
> dialog between alpine and gmx.de.
words.
> > I don't see anything on this website about alpine, only pine.
>
> alpine is pine's official rewrite.
> http://www.washington.edu/alpine/overview/story.html
http://www.washington.edu/pine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
and http://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
through diff and the only significant difference appeared to be
the addition of s/mime to alpine. I cannot find the string "starttls"
anywhere on the washington website, inclusing a search at
http://www.washington.edu/alpine/search.html viz:
Alpine Information Center Search Results
Note: this searchable index does not include the Alpine-Info archives.master.com
starttls [Search][Options]
No documents match the query.
Try using different or fewer search terms.
> GMX published:
> > 'Wenn Ihr Programm die Verschlüsselungsprotokolle SSL und StartTLS
> > nicht ausdrücklich anbietet, genügt es oft auch, einfach eine
> > "verschlüsselte" Verbindung zu aktivieren. Das Protokoll wird in
> > diesem Fall automatisch ausgewählt.'
>
> Translation:
> If your your program does not explicitly offer the encryption
> protocols SSL and StartTLS, it often suffices to simply activate
> an "encrypted" connection. The protocol will be chosen
> automatically in this case.
>
> > It seems to suggest some sort of fallback, but how it works I don't know.
>
> They obviously refer to any mail client which offers
> encryption in some of its menus.
how to "not explicitly offer the encryption protocols SSL and StartTLS"
when I try to connect with an encryption-handling program (openssl).
Anyway, mail.gmx.net appeared to work perfectly normally on 587:
$ openssl s_client -starttls smtp -crlf -connect mail.gmx.net:587
CONNECTED(00000003)
depth=2 C = DE, O = Deutsche Telekom AG, OU = T-TeleSec Trust Center, CN = Deutsche Telekom Root CA 2
verify error:num=19:self signed certificate in certificate chain
verify return:0
---
Certificate chain
0 s:/C=DE/O=1&1 Mail & Media
GmbH/ST=Rhineland-Palatinate/L=Montabaur/emailAddress=server...@1und1.de/CN=mail.gmx.net
...
PSK identity: None
PSK identity hint: None
SRP username: None
Start Time: 1437965426
Timeout : 300 (sec)
Verify return code: 19 (self signed certificate in certificate chain)
---
250 STARTTLS
ehlo junk
250-gmx.com Hello junk [000.000.000.000]
250-SIZE 69920427
250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
^C as I have nothing more to say.
I can't start 587 as an encrypted connection:
$ openssl s_client -connect mail.gmx.net:587
CONNECTED(00000003)
3073545916:error:140770FC:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:unknown
protocol:s23_clnt.c:795:
---
no peer certificate available
---
No client certificate CA names sent
---
SSL handshake has read 7 bytes and written 295 bytes
---
New, (NONE), Cipher is (NONE)
Secure Renegotiation IS NOT supported
Compression: NONE
Expansion: NONE
---
$
which appears normal. However, 465 seems to behave oddly:
$ openssl s_client -connect mail.gmx.net:465
CONNECTED(00000003)
depth=2 C = DE, O = Deutsche Telekom AG, OU = T-TeleSec Trust Center, CN = Deutsche Telekom Root CA 2
verify error:num=19:self signed certificate in certificate chain
verify return:0
---
Certificate chain
0 s:/C=DE/O=1&1 Mail & Media
GmbH/ST=Rhineland-Palatinate/L=Montabaur/emailAddress=server...@1und1.de/CN=mail.gmx.net
...
PSK identity: None
PSK identity hint: None
SRP username: None
Start Time: 1437965342
Timeout : 300 (sec)
Verify return code: 19 (self signed certificate in certificate
chain)
---
220 gmx.com (mrgmx001) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
ehlo junk
^C as it hung.
I would have expected a reply here, or to be thrown off.
> > You probably know a lot more about alpine
>
> Rather not. I always used pine but never dived into its entrails.
>
> > http://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config-notes.html
> > "If the attempt to use TLS fails then this parameter
> > will cause the connection to fail instead of falling back to an
> > unsecure connection."
> > Doesn't the last sentence explain what is happening to your
> > connection?
>
> It does not predict SMTP error 503 which is about protocol
> problems, not connection or encryption.
> Further the experiment with alpine and stunnel shows no
> difference in behavior. stunnel itself works fine with gmx.de.
>
> > Have you tried using mail.gmx.net:465/tls/user=th.sc...@gmx.net
>
> 465 would be the wrong port, i assume.
> Well, i now tried. alpine waits a while and then reports:
> [Error sending: Connection failed to mail.gmx.net,465: Connection timed out]
> This happens before i get asked by alpine for the password,
> which it probably does when the server replies to an early
> SMTP command by error 530 "Authentication required".
I could use it myself but prefer starttls on a weird high port.
> > Mind you, I'm not convinced you'll have any joy but I'd be interested
> > to know. It looked to me as if it wants to see a certificate to let
> > you connect, and I see no provision in alpine for that either. (Only
> > for signing emails etc.)
>
> Certificate problems look different.
> I can tell from running an 8 year old system in today's internet.
verify error:num=19:self signed certificate in certificate chain
above.
> > So I still think you need to turn on the logging.
>
> If i only could find some option for that in alpine or stunnel.
> Packet sniffers won't help because of encryption.
stopped using Debian pine. It wouldn't play well when the university
upgraded its IMAP server from a beta to a production version. I
couldn't log the conversation because pine had been compiled without
the debug option. At the time, I held the view that the debug option
needed to be set in the production version of pine so that the
conversations could be logged. The Debian maintainer at the time held
the view that because compiling without the debug flag was the only
way he could prevent the creation of those "ugly" (his word), that
was the way Debian's pine would be distributed.
My view was that both parties were wrong; pine for requiring a
compiler's debug flag (surely for debugging the pine code) to be set
before logging could be turned on by the runtime -d flag, and Debian
for not accepting pine's problem and compiling with the debug flag
so that users could use the full functionality of the program.
My solution was to run pine on the university's unix service
through ssh. It didn't take long to discover I could build mutt
there easily!
So check if alpine has the same problem.
BTW I assume the same problem as yours is reported at
http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/networking/203061-alpine-setup-ok-unable-send-email.html
Cheers,
David.
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 1:30:08 PM7/27/15
to
Hi,
David Wright wrote:
> > I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
> > effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
> I'm sorry if I appear to be thick but I get very little sense from
> "see the same effect as with alpine's own encryption". I can't be
> certain what works and what fails when you express it like that.
All three variations of alpine SMTP configuration which i tried
do not work:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=my_us...@gmx.net
smtp-server=localhost:30029/user=my_us...@gmx.net
The third one is using a stunnel process at port 30029 which
encrypts the communication and forwards it to and from
port 465 of mail.gmx.net.
The effect is that i see indications of a beginning (E)SMTP
dialog up to the prompt for a password. But the attempt to
hand over the mail fails with alpine displaying the message
"Bad sequence of commands". I assume it stems from the server.
> 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
This is what i assume to be triggering the alpine passowrd
prompt. So i believe that alpine gets that far with the
server.
> I can't start 587 as an encrypted connection: [...]
the ESMTP dialog. There is a STARTTLS command:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STARTTLS
Port 465 is used by GMX for ESMTP which begins already encrypted.
> ...
I can reproduce it here but am too lazy to explore :))
Trying telnet via stunnel:
$ telnet localhost 30029
Trying ::1...
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 gmx.com (mrgmx003) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
ehlo junk
250-gmx.com Hello junk [79.192.75.113]
< 220 gmx.com (mrgmx103) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
> EHLO scdbackup.webframe.org
< 250-gmx.com Hello scdbackup.webframe.org [79.192.75.113]
< 530 Authentication required
> AUTH PLAIN
< 334
> (secret text)
< 235 Authentication succeeded
> MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
< 250 Requested mail action okay, completed
...
and sucessfully delivers the mail.
> > Certificate problems look different.
> > I can tell from running an 8 year old system in today's internet.
> If you say so. I don't know how to interpret
> verify error:num=19:self signed certificate in certificate chain
> above.
It did not prevent the connection and it is not what alpine
is reporting to me. I see the cleartext of SMTP error 503.
About the certification problems of openssl in particular
i found:
http://documentation.microfocus.com/help/topic/com.microfocus.eclipse.infocenter.edtest/HHSTSTCERT06.html
I understand one has to declare the self-signed certificates
to be trusted in order to silence the message. But how could
a user judge trustworthiness of a certificate ?
> BTW I assume the same problem as yours is reported at
> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/networking/203061-alpine-setup-ok-unable-send-email.html
Yes. This is what i experience.
Just that my troubles did not start in october 2014 but
not before mid june of 2015. Up to then, the alpine of
my Debian 6 machine could send mail via stunnel and the
Nemesis of GMX.
A few days before i got my new Debian 8.1 machine, alpine
on Debian 6 stopped working. On the new machine it never
worked.
I downloaded alpine-2.20.tar.xz now, the newest version i
could find. It might last a while until i get some insight.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
David Wright wrote:
> > I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
> > effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
> I'm sorry if I appear to be thick but I get very little sense from
> "see the same effect as with alpine's own encryption". I can't be
> certain what works and what fails when you express it like that.
do not work:
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=my_us...@gmx.net
smtp-server=localhost:30029/user=my_us...@gmx.net
The third one is using a stunnel process at port 30029 which
encrypts the communication and forwards it to and from
port 465 of mail.gmx.net.
The effect is that i see indications of a beginning (E)SMTP
dialog up to the prompt for a password. But the attempt to
hand over the mail fails with alpine displaying the message
"Bad sequence of commands". I assume it stems from the server.
> 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
This is what i assume to be triggering the alpine passowrd
prompt. So i believe that alpine gets that far with the
server.
> I can't start 587 as an encrypted connection: [...]
> which appears normal. However, 465 seems to behave oddly:
I understand 587 is for encryption being started inside
the ESMTP dialog. There is a STARTTLS command:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STARTTLS
Port 465 is used by GMX for ESMTP which begins already encrypted.
> ...
> 220 gmx.com (mrgmx001) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
> ehlo junk
> ^C as it hung.
> I would have expected a reply here, or to be thrown off.
Must be something about the openssl run.
> ehlo junk
> ^C as it hung.
> I would have expected a reply here, or to be thrown off.
I can reproduce it here but am too lazy to explore :))
Trying telnet via stunnel:
$ telnet localhost 30029
Trying ::1...
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 gmx.com (mrgmx003) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
ehlo junk
250-gmx.com Hello junk [79.192.75.113]
250-SIZE 69920427
250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
My own SMTP client does this dialog via stunnel:
250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
< 220 gmx.com (mrgmx103) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
> EHLO scdbackup.webframe.org
< 250-gmx.com Hello scdbackup.webframe.org [79.192.75.113]
< 250-SIZE 69920427
< 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
> MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
< 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
< 530 Authentication required
> AUTH PLAIN
< 334
> (secret text)
< 235 Authentication succeeded
> MAIL FROM:<scdb...@gmx.net>
< 250 Requested mail action okay, completed
...
and sucessfully delivers the mail.
> > Certificate problems look different.
> > I can tell from running an 8 year old system in today's internet.
> If you say so. I don't know how to interpret
> verify error:num=19:self signed certificate in certificate chain
> above.
is reporting to me. I see the cleartext of SMTP error 503.
About the certification problems of openssl in particular
i found:
http://documentation.microfocus.com/help/topic/com.microfocus.eclipse.infocenter.edtest/HHSTSTCERT06.html
I understand one has to declare the self-signed certificates
to be trusted in order to silence the message. But how could
a user judge trustworthiness of a certificate ?
> BTW I assume the same problem as yours is reported at
> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/networking/203061-alpine-setup-ok-unable-send-email.html
Just that my troubles did not start in october 2014 but
not before mid june of 2015. Up to then, the alpine of
my Debian 6 machine could send mail via stunnel and the
Nemesis of GMX.
A few days before i got my new Debian 8.1 machine, alpine
on Debian 6 stopped working. On the new machine it never
worked.
I downloaded alpine-2.20.tar.xz now, the newest version i
could find. It might last a while until i get some insight.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 1:40:06 PM7/27/15
to
Hi,
Bob Bernstein wrote:
> I suggest you join the alpine discussion list.
> https://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
Will ask there after i managed to get version 2.20 running
from source tarball. (Or after i encountered a showstopper.)
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
Bob Bernstein wrote:
> I suggest you join the alpine discussion list.
Will ask there after i managed to get version 2.20 running
from source tarball. (Or after i encountered a showstopper.)
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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David Wright
Jul 27, 2015, 2:50:05 PM7/27/15
to
Quoting Thomas Schmitt (scdb...@gmx.net):
> David Wright wrote:
>
> > > I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
> > > effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
>
> > I'm sorry if I appear to be thick but I get very little sense from
> > "see the same effect as with alpine's own encryption". I can't be
> > certain what works and what fails when you express it like that.
>
> All three variations of alpine SMTP configuration which i tried
> do not work:
>
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=my_us...@gmx.net
OK. It would be nice to know which port numbers alpine is trying to
> David Wright wrote:
>
> > > I can direct alpine unencrypted to port 30029 and see the same
> > > effect as with alpine's own encryption via "/ssl/" or "/tls/".
>
> > I'm sorry if I appear to be thick but I get very little sense from
> > "see the same effect as with alpine's own encryption". I can't be
> > certain what works and what fails when you express it like that.
>
> All three variations of alpine SMTP configuration which i tried
> do not work:
>
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/ssl/user=my_us...@gmx.net
> smtp-server=mail.gmx.net/tls/user=my_us...@gmx.net
use. I've always found it pays to specify them explicitly and,
when things don't work (like in a motel), try other alternatives.
25, 465, 785, 2525, 25025 etc.
> smtp-server=localhost:30029/user=my_us...@gmx.net
>
> The third one is using a stunnel process at port 30029 which
> encrypts the communication and forwards it to and from
> port 465 of mail.gmx.net.
does the encryption. And this stopped working 2015 mid-June.
Not having tried mail.gmx.net:465 myself before a few hours ago, I
don't know whether the fact that it hangs is something that started
happening in mid-June (for everyone). Were I a user of mail.gmx.net,
I would ask them.
> The effect is that i see indications of a beginning (E)SMTP
> dialog up to the prompt for a password. But the attempt to
> hand over the mail fails with alpine displaying the message
> "Bad sequence of commands". I assume it stems from the server.
>
> > 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
>
> This is what i assume to be triggering the alpine passowrd
> prompt. So i believe that alpine gets that far with the
> server.
>
>
> > I can't start 587 as an encrypted connection: [...]
> > which appears normal. However, 465 seems to behave oddly:
>
> I understand 587 is for encryption being started inside
> the ESMTP dialog. There is a STARTTLS command:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STARTTLS
>
> Port 465 is used by GMX for ESMTP which begins already encrypted.
>
>
> > $ openssl s_client -connect mail.gmx.net:465
> > ...
> > 220 gmx.com (mrgmx001) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
> > ehlo junk
> > ^C as it hung.
> > I would have expected a reply here, or to be thrown off.
>
> Must be something about the openssl run.
> I can reproduce it here but am too lazy to explore :))
life into it, but the responses weren't what I expected. Only two
commands did anything:
it: 220 gmx.com (mrgmx101) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
me: noop
me: NOOP
me: quit
me: QUIT
it: DONE
$
and
it: 220 gmx.com (mrgmx101) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
me: rset
me: RSET
it: RENEGOTIATING
it: 3073837208:error:14094153:SSL routines:SSL3_READ_BYTES:no renegotiation:s3_pkt.c:1247:
$
so case is sensitive. I can't reconcile it with rfc5321.
and ditto 334. But I can't get any response from ehlo or EHLO,
so I give up.
To summarise, I don't use alpine myself, you can't show any logs, and
the server doesn't behave the same for you and me. Or, at least,
I've used openssl s_client -connect mail.gmx.net:465
and I don't get the results that your stunnel (which I know nothing
about) is providing above.
> Just that my troubles did not start in october 2014 but
> not before mid june of 2015. Up to then, the alpine of
> my Debian 6 machine could send mail via stunnel and the
> Nemesis of GMX.
> A few days before i got my new Debian 8.1 machine, alpine
> on Debian 6 stopped working. On the new machine it never
> worked.
>
> I downloaded alpine-2.20.tar.xz now, the newest version i
> could find. It might last a while until i get some insight.
David.
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 3:40:08 PM7/27/15
to
Hi,
> OK. It would be nice to know which port numbers alpine is trying to
> use.
It did connect with explicitely setting port 587 for "/tls/".
But i bet that neither port nor encryption protocol is the
problem. If not alpine mimicks a SMTP error 503 then the
connection is good enough to transmit this server error
message to the alpine client.
> So AIUI alpine is sending and receiving plaintext and your stunnel
> does the encryption. And this stopped working 2015 mid-June.
Yes. By some change in the "Nemesis" server, i guess.
> I don't know whether the fact that it hangs is something that started
> happening in mid-June (for everyone).
It only hangs for the openssl run which we both tried.
It does not hang for stunnel or for alpine.
It might be that different mail accounts are dispatched
to different servers. Now mine got updated.
Futile. They'd want me to use the web interface with lots
of advertising.
> so case is sensitive. I can't reconcile it with rfc5321.
Nemesis obviously does not properly get to see your texts.
man 1 s_client says "any key presses will be sent to the server".
This might not be what a SMTP server expects. RFC 821 prescibes
"<CRLF>" as line end mark.
Further i read in man s_client:
"if the line begins with a Q or if end of file is reached,
the connection will be closed down".
So not SMTP did react on QUIT, but openssl s_client did react
on Q.
Try again with option -crlf
openssl s_client -crlf -connect mail.gmx.net:465
It brings me to
220 gmx.com (mrgmx102) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
EHLO junk
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/stunnel4
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
> OK. It would be nice to know which port numbers alpine is trying to
> use.
But i bet that neither port nor encryption protocol is the
problem. If not alpine mimicks a SMTP error 503 then the
connection is good enough to transmit this server error
message to the alpine client.
> So AIUI alpine is sending and receiving plaintext and your stunnel
> does the encryption. And this stopped working 2015 mid-June.
> I don't know whether the fact that it hangs is something that started
> happening in mid-June (for everyone).
It does not hang for stunnel or for alpine.
It might be that different mail accounts are dispatched
to different servers. Now mine got updated.
Futile. They'd want me to use the web interface with lots
of advertising.
> so case is sensitive. I can't reconcile it with rfc5321.
man 1 s_client says "any key presses will be sent to the server".
This might not be what a SMTP server expects. RFC 821 prescibes
"<CRLF>" as line end mark.
Further i read in man s_client:
"if the line begins with a Q or if end of file is reached,
the connection will be closed down".
So not SMTP did react on QUIT, but openssl s_client did react
on Q.
Try again with option -crlf
openssl s_client -crlf -connect mail.gmx.net:465
It brings me to
220 gmx.com (mrgmx102) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
EHLO junk
> I don't get the results that your stunnel (which I know nothing
> about) is providing above.
It's not my stunnel. Nevertheless very handy.
> about) is providing above.
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/stunnel4
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Nicolas George
Jul 27, 2015, 3:50:05 PM7/27/15
to
Le nonidi 9 thermidor, an CCXXIII, David Wright a écrit :
by a separate program.
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
> OK. It would be nice to know which port numbers alpine is trying to
> use.
strace can tell you that and much more, especially if the encryption is done
> use.
by a separate program.
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
David Wright
Jul 27, 2015, 4:20:05 PM7/27/15
to
Quoting Thomas Schmitt (scdb...@gmx.net):
> > Were I a user of mail.gmx.net, I would ask them.
>
> Futile. They'd want me to use the web interface with lots
> of advertising.
Oh dear. Well, could you attack the problem the other way round and
> > Were I a user of mail.gmx.net, I would ask them.
>
> Futile. They'd want me to use the web interface with lots
> of advertising.
connect alpine to exim, say, on your own machine. Unfortunately you'll
have to do some configuring first, to open up ports on localhost.
Alternatively, it might be easier to build alpine from source with the
debug flag. I'm guessing that's why you downloaded alpine-2.20.tar.xz.
> Nemesis obviously does not properly get to see your texts.
> man 1 s_client says "any key presses will be sent to the server".
> This might not be what a SMTP server expects. RFC 821 prescibes
> "<CRLF>" as line end mark.
> Try again with option -crlf
>
> openssl s_client -crlf -connect mail.gmx.net:465
>
> It brings me to
>
> 220 gmx.com (mrgmx102) Nemesis ESMTP Service ready
> EHLO junk
> 250-gmx.com Hello junk [79.192.75.113]
> 250-SIZE 69920427
> 250 AUTH LOGIN PLAIN
Cheers,
David.
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 4:30:04 PM7/27/15
to
Hi,
David Wright a écrit :
Whatever, the ports and encryption are ok. It's alpine's
way of speaking ESMTP and/or Nemesis' unfilfilled ESMTP
expectations which cause an error 503. I'm quite sure.
(David Wright seems convinced too, after we sorted out
the line delimiter problem with openssl s_client.)
After installing libssl-dev and libpam-dev i now get
through ./configure && make of alpine 2.20.
Must go on READMEing what's next.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
David Wright a écrit :
> > It would be nice to know which port numbers alpine is trying to
> > use.
Nicolas George:
> > use.
> strace can tell you that and much more, especially if the encryption is done
> by a separate program.
I do know the port number if stunnel is involved.
> by a separate program.
Whatever, the ports and encryption are ok. It's alpine's
way of speaking ESMTP and/or Nemesis' unfilfilled ESMTP
expectations which cause an error 503. I'm quite sure.
(David Wright seems convinced too, after we sorted out
the line delimiter problem with openssl s_client.)
After installing libssl-dev and libpam-dev i now get
through ./configure && make of alpine 2.20.
Must go on READMEing what's next.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Nicolas George
Jul 27, 2015, 4:40:05 PM7/27/15
to
Le nonidi 9 thermidor, an CCXXIII, Thomas Schmitt a écrit :
you know a bit of SMTP, which seems the case, you should be able to spot the
problem in a few minutes.
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
> > strace can tell you that and much more, especially if the encryption is done
> > by a separate program.
> > by a separate program.
> Whatever, the ports and encryption are ok. It's alpine's
> way of speaking ESMTP and/or Nemesis' unfilfilled ESMTP
> expectations which cause an error 503.
That is exactly the reason I wrote "and much more". Do try strace, and if
> way of speaking ESMTP and/or Nemesis' unfilfilled ESMTP
> expectations which cause an error 503.
you know a bit of SMTP, which seems the case, you should be able to spot the
problem in a few minutes.
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
Thomas Schmitt
Jul 27, 2015, 5:20:06 PM7/27/15
to
Hi,
Nicolas George wrote:
> Do try strace, and if
> you know a bit of SMTP, which seems the case, you should be able to spot the
> problem in a few minutes.
It's nearly too late in the evening. But (with alpine 2.20 from
source):
read(9, "220 gmx.com (mrgmx102) Nemesis E"..., 8192) = 52
write(9, "EHLO localhost\r\n", 16) = 16
read(9, "250-gmx.com Hello localhost [79."..., 8192) = 86
write(9, "AUTH PLAIN\r\n", 12) = 12
read(9, "334 \r\n", 8192) = 6
write(9, "...for.my.eyes.only...", ...) = ...
read(9, "235 Authentication succeeded\r\n", 8192) = 30
write(9, "MAIL FROM:<...my_id...@...my.local.hostname...>"..., ...) = ...
Oh yes. That's wrong. It must be ...my_id...@gmx.net.
Consequential Nemesis rejects:
read(9, "550-Requested action not taken: "..., 8192) = 89
But alpine happily goes on with
write(9, "RCPT TO:<...some_id...@gmx.net>\r\n", ...) = ...
which earns it
read(9, "503 Bad sequence of commands\r\n", 8192) = 30
Ok. About 20 minutes including reading man strace.
Catch of the day. Congrats to Nicolas George !
It's really too late now. But i change alpine configuration
from:
User Domain = <No Value Set>
to:
User Domain = gmx.net
... naw. Does not help. At least not now.
I have something to dig for in the source. Tomorrow.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Nicolas George wrote:
> Do try strace, and if
> you know a bit of SMTP, which seems the case, you should be able to spot the
> problem in a few minutes.
source):
read(9, "220 gmx.com (mrgmx102) Nemesis E"..., 8192) = 52
write(9, "EHLO localhost\r\n", 16) = 16
read(9, "250-gmx.com Hello localhost [79."..., 8192) = 86
write(9, "AUTH PLAIN\r\n", 12) = 12
read(9, "334 \r\n", 8192) = 6
write(9, "...for.my.eyes.only...", ...) = ...
read(9, "235 Authentication succeeded\r\n", 8192) = 30
write(9, "MAIL FROM:<...my_id...@...my.local.hostname...>"..., ...) = ...
Oh yes. That's wrong. It must be ...my_id...@gmx.net.
Consequential Nemesis rejects:
read(9, "550-Requested action not taken: "..., 8192) = 89
But alpine happily goes on with
write(9, "RCPT TO:<...some_id...@gmx.net>\r\n", ...) = ...
which earns it
read(9, "503 Bad sequence of commands\r\n", 8192) = 30
Ok. About 20 minutes including reading man strace.
Catch of the day. Congrats to Nicolas George !
It's really too late now. But i change alpine configuration
from:
User Domain = <No Value Set>
to:
User Domain = gmx.net
... naw. Does not help. At least not now.
I have something to dig for in the source. Tomorrow.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 28, 2015, 4:10:04 AM7/28/15
to
Hi,
by hardcoding my GMX mail address in
alpine-2.20/imap/src/c-client/smtp.c, i was able to prove that
my workstation hostname in the "MAIL FROM:" argument is indeed
the stumblestone which prevented SMTP success with gmx.net.
Whew.
Now i need to find out how to regularly configure the components
of env->return_path to the values which yield success.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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by hardcoding my GMX mail address in
alpine-2.20/imap/src/c-client/smtp.c, i was able to prove that
my workstation hostname in the "MAIL FROM:" argument is indeed
the stumblestone which prevented SMTP success with gmx.net.
Whew.
Now i need to find out how to regularly configure the components
of env->return_path to the values which yield success.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Thomas Schmitt
Jul 28, 2015, 5:10:04 AM7/28/15
to
Hi,
the trick is to go to the configuration item "Customized Headers"
and to add a customized "From:" header. Like
From: Full Name <us...@example.com>
One can gets this instruction by pressing the help key "?"
on the item "User Domain" and following the "here" link
in the third paragraph.
By setting my GMX mail address there, i get alpine to send
"MAIL FROM:" with this addrss and gmx.net does not reject
this SMTP command any more.
I am using this setting with Debian's alpine-2.11 binary
and for now drop the use of my patched alpine-2.20.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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the trick is to go to the configuration item "Customized Headers"
and to add a customized "From:" header. Like
From: Full Name <us...@example.com>
One can gets this instruction by pressing the help key "?"
on the item "User Domain" and following the "here" link
in the third paragraph.
By setting my GMX mail address there, i get alpine to send
"MAIL FROM:" with this addrss and gmx.net does not reject
this SMTP command any more.
I am using this setting with Debian's alpine-2.11 binary
and for now drop the use of my patched alpine-2.20.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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