user perms

[gene heskett]

Greetings all;

I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a permissions
wall.

I can't modify screen colors in any terminal or in mc, and mc's colors are all so alike I can
only read a directory list which is in a different color, if I want to read a file, I have to use nano.

I've installed cups which wasn't before along with the brother drivers for my two printers,
but they aren't configured, so I installed apache2 to use localhost:631 to set them up, firefox won't
run as root and cups is denying me permissions to do anything to the displayed printers its finding,
without asking me for a pw.

So obviously, something is wrong. I am a member of the sudo group and the lp group.

Do I have to do a 32nd install so it all hopefully gets fixed so I can actually do something?

hanks for any ideas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a permissions
> wall.

SHOW. US.

Why the hell do you CONTINUE to make these vague statements with NO
demonstration of what the actual problem is?

It would take you FIVE SECONDS to paste the offending results from your
terminal to the email you're already writing.

Anyway, if you're seeing "1000" instead of "gene" in the output of some
command such as "ls -ld ~" then it's probably your /etc/passwd file being
broken in some way. Permissions on the file. Contents of the file.
Permissions on the directories leading up to the file (/ and /etc).
One of those things.

Whatever it is, fix it.

You're a goddamned 20+ year Linux veteran. You should be able to handle
something as ridiculously simple as this.

[Bijan Soleymani]

On 6/13/2022 2:33 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a permissions
>> wall.
> SHOW. US.

No need to shout in all caps.
> Why the hell
no need for language

> You're a goddamned 20+ year Linux veteran. You should be able to handle
> something as ridiculously simple as this.

again language and personal attack

I just got an email saying there's a FAQ and a code of conduct.

Bijan

[Joe]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 13:56:12 -0400
gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> wrote:


> I can't modify screen colors in any terminal or in mc, and mc's
> colors are all so alike I can only read a directory list which is in
> a different color, if I want to read a file, I have to use nano.
>

I don't know if you know this, but when you close mc the *current*
version of the config file is re-saved. So if you edited the file in
mc, the new version will be overwritten.

I edit it in mc, save it under a different name, close mc and rename my
file mc.ini. What I haven't yet found is a means of changing the colour
of comments in files that mc recognises as programs.

--
Joe

[Felix Miata]

Joe composed on 2022-06-13 20:03 (UTC+0100):

> I don't know if you know this, but when you close mc the *current*
> version of the config file is re-saved. So if you edited the file in
> mc, the new version will be overwritten.

That's an unfortunate default, not carved in stone. Turn off auto save setup and
saving of settings won't happen unless you goto menu and select save.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 13/06/2022 15:33, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Why the hell do you CONTINUE to make these vague statements with NO
> demonstration of what the actual problem is?

And why do you continue asking for the same things, knowing that they
won't be provided?

Not that your request in invalid - certainly if the user wants actual
help, they must provided good and accurate details of the problem and of
what they have tried in order to identify and/or solve the problem.

But the OP in question never provides such details - even after
repeatedly being asked for them, by you and other equally patient people.

I understand the desire to help, but the user must be willing to help
themselves - providing details when asked for, showing output of
diagnostic commands, or just not jumping from unrelated problem to
unrelated problem in the same conversation.

And Gene is one of a few users that never help themselves, even when
repeatedly told what to do and what not to do.


--
In the strict scientific sense we all feed on death -- even vegetarians.
-- Spock, "Wolf in the Fold", stardate 3615.4

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edu...@kalinowski.com.br

[Felix Miata]

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI composed on 2022-06-13 16:29 (UTC-0400):

> And Gene is one of a few users that never help themselves, even when
> repeatedly told what to do and what not to do.

Just wait until your wife of 60 years is gone and you're 89. See how you like
having no one there to talk to any more while your memory is fading from memory.
It may be poor excuse, but it isn't something you can expect to go away through
razzing, if ever. Be kind.

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 13/06/2022 18:39, Felix Miata wrote:
> Eduardo M KALINOWSKI composed on 2022-06-13 16:29 (UTC-0400):
>
>> And Gene is one of a few users that never help themselves, even when
>> repeatedly told what to do and what not to do.
>
> Just wait until your wife of 60 years is gone and you're 89. See how you like
> having no one there to talk to any more while your memory is fading from memory.
> It may be poor excuse, but it isn't something you can expect to go away through
> razzing, if ever. Be kind.

At this stage, I cannot rule out the possibility that Gene Heskett is
actually a social experiment to figure out how far people on debian-user
will go in trying to help someone that asks for help, and then ignores
the actual attempts at help received.

Or maybe it's performance art, as someone else observed.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edu...@kalinowski.com.br

[gene heskett]

On 6/13/22 14:36, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote: >> I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a >> permissions wall. > > SHOW. US.

I got tired of fighting with it Greg, so I did install #32 and installed

gnome_desktop (that was new) and xfce4 during the install, and

now things including the screen colors are back to normal,

I've installed the brother printers and scanner drivers and I can modify t

them by the usual rules. I also set a root pw in addition to adding myself

to /etc/group in the appropriate places. I created an /sshnet tree with the

other 5 machines here, did a root chown -R me:me on that path and just now

mounted all of them as me, so I own the path to me on the other 5 machines.

And my working environment is getting close to completed, something

that only been workable occasionally since that last Seagate 2T drive

went tits down in the night last Dec 8th.

Kmail5 is buggier than road kill in June, but t-bird is more like August, so

I'm looking for a mailer that actually works. tbirds sort filters don't, and

they think everybody uses only html, so word wrap doesn't work So I'm

doing this by hand..

So my only instant question is when will the developers understand that

stuff that runs as a $USER, needs one of two changes, either a .conf file

someplace readable by the $USER that tells things like t-bird, running as

the user, can have write privs to /var/log, /or/ an entry in that *.conf so

logging can be done instead of just gobbling up the denial w/o bothering

to tell the user it can't open the log. Its trivial to fix logrotate to service

the logs in /home/$USER/logs where there's no perms problem because

the $USER owns the whole path.  Same perms story for heyu and nut,

but some somebody, thinking security as opposed to usability, insists

on building /dev/ttyUSB*, with 0600 perms. Neither nut, nor heyu can

get past that to get their job done. And IF I reset those two devices to 0777,

re reboot fixes that. 

I must have asked 15 or 20 times in the last decade, how to fix this in

permanently in /lib/udev, and have been ignored when I ask that for

several years. Usability, letting a computer actually DO its job simply

isn't on the menu. With a record like that, can you blame me for being

frustrated? Frustrated by asking for advice so I do do it right, and being

ignored.

[...]

> You're a goddamned 20+ year Linux veteran. You should be able to > handle something as ridiculously simple as this.

I just did, but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet. Only so

much time in one 24 hour day.  Up since 4:40 my time, by 20:00 I'm burned

out for the day.

Take care and stay well, Greg.

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Jun 2022 at 19:03:47 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/13/22 14:36, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote: >>
> > I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a >>
> permissions wall. > > SHOW. US.
>
> I got tired of fighting with it Greg, so I did install #32 and installed
> gnome_desktop (that was new) and xfce4 during the install, and
> now things including the screen colors are back to normal,
>
> I've installed the brother printers and scanner drivers and I can modify t
> them by the usual rules. I also set a root pw in addition to adding myself
> to /etc/group in the appropriate places. I created an /sshnet tree with the
> other 5 machines here, did a root chown -R me:me on that path and just now
> mounted all of them as me, so I own the path to me on the other 5 machines.

"adding myself to /etc/group in the appropriate places" sounds just
like the sort of thing that might have caused /etc/passwd to become
screwed up in installation #31.

> And my working environment is getting close to completed, something
> that only been workable occasionally since that last Seagate 2T drive
> went tits down in the night last Dec 8th.
>
> Kmail5 is buggier than road kill in June, but t-bird is more like
> August, so
> I'm looking for a mailer that actually works. tbirds sort filters
> don't, and
> they think everybody uses only html, so word wrap doesn't work So I'm
> doing this by hand..
>
> So my only instant question is when will the developers understand that
> stuff that runs as a $USER, needs one of two changes, either a .conf file
> someplace readable by the $USER that tells things like t-bird, running as
> the user, can have write privs to /var/log, /or/ an entry in that *.conf so
> logging can be done instead of just gobbling up the denial w/o bothering
> to tell the user it can't open the log. Its trivial to fix logrotate
> to service
> the logs in /home/$USER/logs where there's no perms problem because
> the $USER owns the whole path. 

No idea what this is all about, sorry.

> Same perms story for heyu and nut,
> but some somebody, thinking security as opposed to usability, insists
> on building /dev/ttyUSB*, with 0600 perms. Neither nut, nor heyu can
> get past that to get their job done. And IF I reset those two devices
> to 0777,
> re reboot fixes that.
>
> I must have asked 15 or 20 times in the last decade, how to fix this in
> permanently in /lib/udev, and have been ignored when I ask that for
> several years. Usability, letting a computer actually DO its job simply
> isn't on the menu. With a record like that, can you blame me for being
> frustrated? Frustrated by asking for advice so I do do it right, and being
> ignored.

The trouble with writing this is that people can look back.

There was a thread in May 2020 on this topic, where all your posts
have followups except for the two that sign out just like this one
does below; ie "Now I know how but my editing foo is burned out for
today", and "I'll see about it tomorrow, having used up my creative
juices on another project today".

In that thread, there is a working set of rules showing how udev
runs a script when a USB stick is inserted or removed, the scripts
themselves, and the data files that the scripts read¹. The scripts
have no problem performing mkdir and rmdir in the /media directory:

$ ls -ld /media
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Jun 14 08:30 /media
$

> [...]
>
> > You're a goddamned 20+ year Linux veteran. You should be able to
> > handle something as ridiculously simple as this.
>
> I just did,

As usual, we don't know what you actually did to handle it.

> but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet.

Of course, the idea was that /you/ don't have to do that: udev should
do it when you boot up the machine or plug in the items. That's what
makes it permanent. And by reading their distinctive serial numbers,
FTDHG45D and FTOOS09N, it also prevents the names of the two devices
being swapped around by a race, or the order of insertion.

> Only so
> much time in one 24 hour day.  Up since 4:40 my time, by 20:00 I'm burned
> out for the day.

¹
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/05/msg00510.html

Unlike the email posts, the web version doesn't show that
"usgs1g" (the mount point) is the contents of an attached file
called "2017-0403" (the USB stick's UUID), and likewise "cdrom3"
in file "KZ3E2DH0440" (the portable DVD Writer's serial number).

Cheers,
David.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 12:22:05PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 13 Jun 2022 at 19:03:47 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> > On 6/13/22 14:36, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote: >>
> > > I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a >>
> > permissions wall. > > SHOW. US.
> >
> > I got tired of fighting with it Greg, so I did install #32 and installed
> > gnome_desktop (that was new) and xfce4 during the install, and
> > now things including the screen colors are back to normal,
> >
> > I've installed the brother printers and scanner drivers and I can modify t
> > them by the usual rules. I also set a root pw in addition to adding myself
> > to /etc/group in the appropriate places. I created an /sshnet tree with the
> > other 5 machines here, did a root chown -R me:me on that path and just now
> > mounted all of them as me, so I own the path to me on the other 5 machines.
>
> "adding myself to /etc/group in the appropriate places" sounds just
> like the sort of thing that might have caused /etc/passwd to become
> screwed up in installation #31.
>

adduser gene <groupname>

would be the way to do it and have adduser write the file appropriately,
in my experience.

Manually editing /etc/passwd /etc/group or whatever is error-prone, yes.

In the days when Raspbian defaulted to setting a pi user and default group
I'd use the groups command to check whcich groups were set and then
set them by using adduser for my own user, add my own user to the appropriate
group for sudo then, at that point, logout, login as my own user and

userdel -r pi

> > And my working environment is getting close to completed, something
> > that only been workable occasionally since that last Seagate 2T drive
> > went tits down in the night last Dec 8th.
> >
> > Kmail5 is buggier than road kill in June, but t-bird is more like
> > August, so
> > I'm looking for a mailer that actually works. tbirds sort filters
> > don't, and
> > they think everybody uses only html, so word wrap doesn't work So I'm
> > doing this by hand..
> >

Thunderbird and the like do have options to set what they accept and
what they display.

Here, I'm using mutt - but I will admit that I had someone more knowledgeable
help me set up mail forwarding and so on.

Glad to hear you've finally got an environment that more or less works -
maybe leave it working for more than a week if you possibly can

All the very best to all on the list, as ever

Andy Cater

[Brian]

On Tue 14 Jun 2022 at 12:22:05 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 13 Jun 2022 at 19:03:47 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> > On 6/13/22 14:36, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote: >>
> > > I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a >>
> > permissions wall. > > SHOW. US.
> >
> > I got tired of fighting with it Greg, so I did install #32 and installed
> > gnome_desktop (that was new) and xfce4 during the install, and
> > now things including the screen colors are back to normal,
> >
> > I've installed the brother printers and scanner drivers and I can modify t
> > them by the usual rules. I also set a root pw in addition to adding myself
> > to /etc/group in the appropriate places. I created an /sshnet tree with the
> > other 5 machines here, did a root chown -R me:me on that path and just now
> > mounted all of them as me, so I own the path to me on the other 5 machines.
>
> "adding myself to /etc/group in the appropriate places" sounds just
> like the sort of thing that might have caused /etc/passwd to become
> screwed up in installation #31.

"...appropriate places" is about as fuzzy as it gets. The user appears
to have been put is group lp. This is completely unwanted as it opens
up a security hole. Thank goodness the OP is not managing my machines
(or my TV reception capabilities :) ).

--
Brian.

[Joe]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 19:03:47 -0400
gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> wrote:


>
> Kmail5 is buggier than road kill in June, but t-bird is more like
> August, so
>
> I'm looking for a mailer that actually works. tbirds sort filters
> don't, and
>
> they think everybody uses only html, so word wrap doesn't work So I'm
>
> doing this by hand..

Have you tried Claws-mail? It used to be a bit buggy, but usable, but
I haven't had any trouble for quite a while (the remaining bugs are
well-hidden). I switched to it when I finally tired of waiting for TB
to wake up and do things, it was cheaper than buying a faster computer.

>
>
> So my only instant question is when will the developers understand
> that
>
> stuff that runs as a $USER, needs one of two changes, either a .conf
> file
>
> someplace readable by the $USER that tells things like t-bird,
> running as
>
> the user, can have write privs to /var/log, /or/ an entry in that
> *.conf so
>

I haven't installed MS Office for a while, but last time I did, it
required root privileges on the first run, as all previous versions
have done. A user file had to be created in a Windows system
directory. It was no good doing it as root, each *user* had to be given
admin privileges for that first run (of each Office component) and if
the IT admin isn't allowed to know the users' passwords (as he
shouldn't be) this required the presence of the user, at least to log
on. In an office where anyone may log on to any computer, that's a
monumental pain. When last I had to do that, there was no centralised
way to do it, even in a domain.

Beat that.

--
Joe

[gene heskett]

yes I did, but you snipped that part. How convenient...
So I write it again:
As soon as it rebooted from the install, and I had gained root,
I nano'd /etc/group and added me to group lp, so I could configure
my 2 printers.

The catted group listing today, from install #32, now has
me all over that file 12 times where the previous 31 installs only had
me in
sudo.

Is that because I finally gave up and defined a root pw during the install?
In that event IMNSHO the installer is broken in 2 ways. In ways not
apparently
related to to the auto install of all the brltty and orca crap that
drives a
sighted person into screaming fits. It stalls the machine while it
trying to
speak every keypress, fails because it hasn't learned how to speak English
and can't be turned off w/o destroying the uptime.

I've met your blind person. He is running OpenSCAD, the gfx composer
from that synth. I'd have to assume it speaks a lot better german than
it does English. I have to admire his determination,
he has a quadruple share of it to run OpenSCAD blind.

If that's not changeable, then it should advertise the diff, but it does
not.

>> but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet.
> Of course, the idea was that /you/ don't have to do that: udev should
> do it when you boot up the machine or plug in the items. That's what
> makes it permanent. And by reading their distinctive serial numbers,
> FTDHG45D and FTOOS09N, it also prevents the names of the two devices
> being swapped around by a race, or the order of insertion.

I've noted that that does seem to be stable now, but why does
it have to be owned by root:root, and 0600 perms? I have rather
diligently searched thru /lib/udev/rules.d without finding where or
how the perms are applied. And questions asking about it are snipped
and never replied to.  Why?????????

>> Only so
>> much time in one 24 hour day.  Up since 4:40 my time, by 20:00 I'm burned
>> out for the day.
> ¹
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/05/msg00510.html

Is my answer as to how to fix this perms problem actually
contained in that post and I'm not reading between the lines
well enough to grok it?  Could happen you know...

> Unlike the email posts, the web version doesn't show that
> "usgs1g" (the mount point) is the contents of an attached file
> called "2017-0403" (the USB stick's UUID), and likewise "cdrom3"
> in file "KZ3E2DH0440" (the portable DVD Writer's serial number).

today, usb-devices does not show the most valuable info, it does
not show the mount point

Now, the weather has quieted, and I have a 1/4" square pcb to design and
make for
one of my cnc'd machines, on that same machine. I'm adding an air
pressure controller
to the mister nozzles air supply.
> Cheers,
> David.
>
> .

[David Wright]

Get a grip: your entire post was quoted in mine, apart from your signature.

> So I write it again:
> As soon as it rebooted from the install, and I had gained root,
> I nano'd /etc/group and added me to group lp, so I could configure
> my 2 printers.

I see; so messing about with /etc/group was "handling it". Well then,
I'll repeat myself too:

> > "adding myself to /etc/group in the appropriate places" sounds just
> > like the sort of thing that might have caused /etc/passwd to become
> > screwed up in installation #31.

> The catted group listing today, from install #32, now has
> me all over that file 12 times where the previous 31 installs only had
> me in
> sudo.
>
> Is that because I finally gave up and defined a root pw during the install?
> In that event IMNSHO the installer is broken in 2 ways. In ways not
> apparently
> related to to the auto install of all the brltty and orca crap that
> drives a
> sighted person into screaming fits. It stalls the machine while it
> trying to
> speak every keypress, fails because it hasn't learned how to speak English
> and can't be turned off w/o destroying the uptime.
>
> I've met your blind person. He is running OpenSCAD, the gfx composer
> from that synth. I'd have to assume it speaks a lot better german than
> it does English. I have to admire his determination,
> he has a quadruple share of it to run OpenSCAD blind.
>
> If that's not changeable, then it should advertise the diff, but it
> does not.

I have no idea what this is all about, sorry.

> > > but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet.

> > Of course, the idea was that /you/ don't have to do that: udev should
> > do it when you boot up the machine or plug in the items. That's what
> > makes it permanent. And by reading their distinctive serial numbers,
> > FTDHG45D and FTOOS09N, it also prevents the names of the two devices
> > being swapped around by a race, or the order of insertion.

> I've noted that that does seem to be stable now, but why does
> it have to be owned by root:root, and 0600 perms? I have rather
> diligently searched thru /lib/udev/rules.d without finding where or
> how the perms are applied. And questions asking about it are snipped
> and never replied to.  Why?????????

A rebuttal is already in your quoted material, above.

On the subject of /lib/udev/rules.d, I have no idea what's in there,
or what's meant to be in there, that would apply to your particular
devices: I don't know anything about them.

But you can write your own rules in /etc/udev/rules.d/, as I have
done, and tailor them to your specific requirements. Don't touch
the ones in /lib/udev/rules.d/, but use them as a pattern. (You
can also override them by using the same filename.)

$ grep '\<MODE\>' /lib/udev/rules.d/* | less

shows that dozens of them set permissions, and would show you
how it's done.

> > > Only so
> > > much time in one 24 hour day.  Up since 4:40 my time, by 20:00 I'm burned
> > > out for the day.

> > ¹
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/05/msg00510.html

> Is my answer as to how to fix this perms problem actually
> contained in that post and I'm not reading between the lines
> well enough to grok it?  Could happen you know...

No it isn't. My example is for how you configure udev so that
it performs things for you, with the necessary privilege, the
idea (one of them) being that you don't have to chmod 777
every darn thing to make them work.

> > Unlike the email posts, the web version doesn't show that
> > "usgs1g" (the mount point) is the contents of an attached file
> > called "2017-0403" (the USB stick's UUID), and likewise "cdrom3"
> > in file "KZ3E2DH0440" (the portable DVD Writer's serial number).

> today, usb-devices does not show the most valuable info, it does
> not show the mount point

/My/ example is for usb-devices that are mass-storage (sticks,
cards and drives), and so it deals in mount points. Your devices
aren't. /lib/udev/rules.d/ unsurprisingly contains examples of
almost every sort of device.

> Now, the weather has quieted, and I have a 1/4" square pcb to design
> and make for
> one of my cnc'd machines, on that same machine. I'm adding an air
> pressure controller
> to the mister nozzles air supply.

Can't help with that.

BTW your previous post was doublespaced, and this one had all the
blank lines taken out, making it difficult to see where replies
begin and end. I'm not sure why. (Anyway, I've inserted them again.)

Cheers,
David.

[gene heskett]

On 6/15/22 01:00, David Wright wrote:
And I'm going to snip down to what I'm replying to, I think.
I am not at all sure tbird will do as I ask though.

>>>> So my only instant question is when will the developers understand that
>>>> stuff that runs as a $USER, needs one of two changes, either a .conf file
>>>> someplace readable by the $USER that tells things like t-bird, running as
>>>> the user, can have write privs to /var/log, /or/ an entry in that *.conf so
>>>> logging can be done instead of just gobbling up the denial w/o bothering
>>>> to tell the user it can't open the log. Its trivial to fix logrotate
>>>> to service
>>>> the logs in /home/$USER/logs where there's no perms problem because
>>>> the $USER owns the whole path.

>>>> No idea what this is all about, sorry.

>>>> The above s/b one quote level but tbird won't lt me fix it. and
now my additional reply is munged, backspaces or Del's will not "take"
What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level, whats wrong
with > >> etc for quote indicators? There's a button containing an A
overlaid by a graphical double square as the last line above the window
that claims to "remove text styling" but it does nothing. Under options
->delivery format, plain text is checked, but obviously its still sending
and rendering what I see as HTML. That's not the end of the bug list

>>>> Same perms story for heyu and nut,
>>>> but some somebody, thinking security as opposed to usability, insists

>>>> on building /dev/ttyUSB*, with 0660 perms. Neither nut, nor heyu can

>>>> get past that to get their job done. And IF I reset those two devices

>>>> to 0777, it all works but a reboot screws it up again

>>>>
>>>> I must have asked 15 or 20 times in the last decade, how to fix this in
>>>> permanently in /lib/udev, and have been ignored when I ask that for
>>>> several years. Usability, letting a computer actually DO its job simply
>>>> isn't on the menu. With a record like that, can you blame me for being
>>>> frustrated? Frustrated by asking for advice so I do do it right, and being
>>>> ignored.
>>> The trouble with writing this is that people can look back.
>>>
>>> There was a thread in May 2020 on this topic, where all your posts
>>> have followups except for the two that sign out just like this one
>>> does below; ie "Now I know how but my editing foo is burned out for
>>> today", and "I'll see about it tomorrow, having used up my creative
>>> juices on another project today".
>>>
>>> In that thread, there is a working set of rules showing how udev
>>> runs a script when a USB stick is inserted or removed, the scripts
>>> themselves, and the data files that the scripts read¹. The scripts
>>> have no problem performing mkdir and rmdir in the /media directory:

USB sticks aren't the issue here, serial adapter's are.

>>> $ ls -ld /media
>>> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Jun 14 08:30 /media
>>> $
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> You're a goddamned 20+ year Linux veteran. You should be able to
>>>>> handle something as ridiculously simple as this.

Generally I can. but a reboot fixes things so I have to do it
all over again at every reboot, just because this list refuses
to answer a simple question about setting the perms on 2
devices that are identified as /dev/ttyUSB*.

This install feels good yet, but at 36 hours uptime, I've used
half the typical uptime I've managed in 30 previous installs.
I have had to replace some memory, but now memtest can't
be found, I guess because it is a 16 bit build, and can't be
changed. But it ran ON THIS 6 core i5, probably 8 or 9 times
pre bullseye.

So what replaces it? From the thread about its MIA status, I
am not the only one wanting it or a 64 bit substitute back
on the grub menu.

I have a $100 bill for the talented coder who brings that
or a new 64 bit from scratch version back.

Payable by whatever legal means puts the money in his or
her pocket to extend the height of their ladder up the side
of the hog.

And I'll repeat: The first 25 installs were because the D-I,
 if it sees a serial adapter, does not ask you if you want
the braille stuff, it installs it automatically, and
by the time I had killed the orca output, it was not rebootable
without a re-install. And when someone finally said why, and
that I had to unplug any serial adapters to stop that bs, it didn't
make a lot of sense to me. Serial adapters are used for a lot of
other stuff, not exclusively to drive /Dev/brltty and orca.
 cm-11a's for heyu to control your household lights and
appliances with the x10 protocol are just one example.
UPS's, even tho they are usually seen thru a usb port,
were usually treated as a serial device, but udev now
recognizes them as a ups. It did not for wheezy. So that's
one bug fixed.

>
>>>> but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet.
>>> Of course, the idea was that /you/ don't have to do that: udev should
>>> do it when you boot up the machine or plug in the items. That's what
>>> makes it permanent. And by reading their distinctive serial numbers,
>>> FTDHG45D and FTOOS09N, it also prevents the names of the two devices
>>> being swapped around by a race, or the order of insertion.

It does not!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm screaming about.
It sets the perms so only root can use them. I just
plugged at least one of them in:
root@coyote:/lib/udev/rules.d# ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 15 05:31 /dev/ttyUSB0

020660. The common user can't touch it. So what IS
the "approved fix" so the user CAN use it? A fix that
will actually survive a reboot.  That's the question
asked that every reply so far has ignored.

Because at the moment, none of the serial adapters
were plugged in.  They both are now. and despite
me, heyu, & nut
being added to the dialout group, neither utility can talk to
its hardware, no permission. So I'll remove the additions to /etc/group
and await advice.

> /lib/udev/rules.d/ unsurprisingly contains examples of
> almost every sort of device.

But not once does is specifically mention /dev/ttyUSB. Its a bit
hard to find the rule for a serial adapter when its not mention
any place it the whole directory tree.

>> Now, the weather has quieted, and I have a 1/4" square pcb to design
>> and make for
>> one of my cnc'd machines, on that same machine. I'm adding an air
>> pressure controller
>> to the mister nozzles air supply.
> Can't help with that.

Got that done, the gage module reflow soldered to it, and
mounted to the base plate that fits in an extruded box
holding a development board for a high voltage op-amp
that I yet to populate with the 603 sized parts that will
bring it to life.

> BTW your previous post was doublespaced, and this one had all the
> blank lines taken out, making it difficult to see where replies
> begin and end. I'm not sure why. (Anyway, I've inserted them again.)

Just one of the t-bird bugs, I see this sentence is in a larger type,
but I've no clue why. I haven't specifically changed it nor have I
used t-bird for a mailer for a decade, and in that decade it still
hasn't grown the ability to send good, word wrapped plain text,
or display it properly. If there is a special key combo that brings
up a menu to select that stuff, I've not found it yet. If I ask it to
rewrap, it will rewrap only the original content, but not my reply
additions. Just one of the reasons I say its buggier than roadkill
in august.
> Cheers,
> David.
>
> .
Take care and stay well David, and thanks,

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):

> What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level

That's taken care of here with one or both of these two entries in prefs.js in the
profiledir:

user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);

I haven't noticed whether or not in GUI preferences if either has a counterpart.

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):

> I have had to replace some memory, but now memtest can't
> be found, I guess because it is a 16 bit build, and can't be
> changed. But it ran ON THIS 6 core i5, probably 8 or 9 times
> pre bullseye.

> So what replaces it? From the thread about its MIA status, I
> am not the only one wanting it or a 64 bit substitute back
> on the grub menu.

> I have a $100 bill for the talented coder who brings that
> or a new 64 bit from scratch version back.

I don't even try to use FOSS memtest86+ on UEFI PCs. Instead, I use the free
version of the proprietary memtest86 from https://www.memtest86.com/. I run it
from this Grub stanza in /boot/grub/custom.cfg on my fastest/newest x86_64 PC:

menuentry "memtest86 7.4 EFI" {
search --no-floppy --label --set=root TM8P01ESP
chainloader /mt74x64.efi
}

That menu entry is pointing to the FAT32 ESP partition, which has the filesystem
label TM8P01ESP.

The current free version is much newer than 7.4.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 07:26:25AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):
>
> > I have had to replace some memory, but now memtest can't
> > be found, I guess because it is a 16 bit build, and can't be
> > changed. But it ran ON THIS 6 core i5, probably 8 or 9 times
> > pre bullseye.
>
> > So what replaces it? From the thread about its MIA status, I
> > am not the only one wanting it or a 64 bit substitute back
> > on the grub menu.
>
> > I have a $100 bill for the talented coder who brings that
> > or a new 64 bit from scratch version back.
>
> I don't even try to use FOSS memtest86+ on UEFI PCs. Instead, I use the free

> version [...]

For those who care, "free" seems here to mean "free of cost", not
"free software". The website weasels around this point (which is
somewhat irritating).

Cheers
--
t

[David Wright]

On Wed 15 Jun 2022 at 06:34:41 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/15/22 01:00, David Wright wrote:

What I wrote is slipping into a morass of IDK what.

> And I'm going to snip down to what I'm replying to, I think.

Yes, I'll join you in snipping.

[ … snipped stuff about email quoting … ]

> Generally I can. but a reboot fixes things so I have to do it
> all over again at every reboot, just because this list refuses
> to answer a simple question about setting the perms on 2
> devices that are identified as /dev/ttyUSB*.

Anyone reading this list can see this is not true.

> This install feels good yet, but at 36 hours uptime, I've used
> half the typical uptime I've managed in 30 previous installs.

I don't understand the concept of "using up" uptime. Surely
uptime just carries on ad infinitum until you have some downtime.

[ … snipped stuff about pigs and pocket money … ]

[ … snipped stuff about a blind person … ]

[ … snipped recapitulation of screen reader … ]

> > > > > but haven't changed the perms of /dev/ttyUSB* yet.

> > > > Of course, the idea was that /you/ don't have to do that: udev should
> > > > do it when you boot up the machine or plug in the items. That's what
> > > > makes it permanent. And by reading their distinctive serial numbers,
> > > > FTDHG45D and FTOOS09N, it also prevents the names of the two devices
> > > > being swapped around by a race, or the order of insertion.

> It does not!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm screaming about.

Of course it doesn't, /as of now/. I see no evidence of your having
written the necessary file to tell udev to do what you want it to do.
Until you write it, "It does not!".

Look, if I write:

Here's how I make udev do X for me. Now you make it do Y for you
in the same manner, using my example and the system's examples
to help you,

there's no point in screaming that a) your question has fallen on
deaf ears for a decade, b) I haven't fixed your problem for you.

> It sets the perms so only root can use them. I just
> plugged at least one of them in:
> root@coyote:/lib/udev/rules.d# ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
> crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 15 05:31 /dev/ttyUSB0

Duh—yes, that's what the current rules on your system specify
that it should do, I suppose (I ain't there to look see).

> 020660. The common user can't touch it. So what IS
> the "approved fix" so the user CAN use it? A fix that
> will actually survive a reboot.  That's the question
> asked that every reply so far has ignored.

It's not a "fix". You don't zap, or nuke, some file. You
write a bit of code (that's what the rules look like) to
tell it what you want doing. Like I did. That's what my
example is for. As they used to say on children's
TV 60 years ago, "Now /you/ try it".

Or if you're very lucky, you find something sufficiently alike
that you can copy the file under /etc/, and your modified
version will overrule the original file under /lib/.

Do you need telling that "your modified version" becomes
"your modified version" by your modifying it, and not by
magic just because I told you to copy it from /lib/ to /etc/.

> > /My/ example is for usb-devices that are mass-storage (sticks,
> > cards and drives), and so it deals in mount points. Your devices
> > aren't.

> Because at the moment, none of the serial adapters
> were plugged in.  They both are now. and despite
> me, heyu, & nut
> being added to the dialout group, neither utility can talk to
> its hardware, no permission. So I'll remove the additions to /etc/group
> and await advice.

> > /lib/udev/rules.d/ unsurprisingly contains examples of
> > almost every sort of device.

> But not once does is specifically mention /dev/ttyUSB. Its a bit
> hard to find the rule for a serial adapter when its not mention
> any place it the whole directory tree.

Well, there might not be, if you don't install anything that requires
those sorts of devices to be configured. Debian doesn't see the need
to include hundreds of configuration files for no particular reason.

You could try installing a few serial-ish packages to see what turns
up, or you could google for any mention of these files.

As it happens, I find I have (but don't use):

$ grep -i ttyusb /lib/udev/rules.d/*
/lib/udev/rules.d/40-usb_modeswitch.rules:# Adds a symlink "gsmmodem[n]" to the lowest ttyUSB port with interrupt
/lib/udev/rules.d/40-usb_modeswitch.rules:KERNEL=="ttyUSB*", ATTRS{bNumConfigurations}=="*", PROGRAM="usb_modeswitch --symlink-name %p %s{idVendor} %s{idProduct} %E{PRODUCT}", SYMLINK+="%c"
/lib/udev/rules.d/60-serial.rules:KERNEL!="ttyUSB[0-9]*|ttyACM[0-9]*", GOTO="serial_end"
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-fibocom-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-fibocom-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): AT port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-fibocom-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-fibocom-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #3): Ignore
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB0 (if #0): QCDM/DIAG port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB1 (if #1): GPS data port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB2 (if #2): AT primary port
/lib/udev/rules.d/77-mm-quectel-port-types.rules:# ttyUSB3 (if #3): AT secondary port
$

I think the packages they belong to are installed just as Recommends.

[ … snipped stuff about solder and email ?fonts … ]

Cheers,
David.

[gene heskett]

On 6/15/22 14:45, David Wright wrote:
[...]

>
>>> /lib/udev/rules.d/ unsurprisingly contains examples of
>>> almost every sort of device.
>> But not once does is specifically mention /dev/ttyUSB. Its a bit
>> hard to find the rule for a serial adapter when its not mention
>> any place it the whole directory tree.

It is there but apparently my use of grep was defective.

> Well, there might not be, if you don't install anything that requires
> those sorts of devices to be configured. Debian doesn't see the need
> to include hundreds of configuration files for no particular reason.
>
> You could try installing a few serial-ish packages to see what turns
> up, or you could google for any mention of these files.

nut and heyu are both serial port users who have long since learned
how to speak serial thru USB shaped holes in back panels.

> And so do I
ene@coyote:/lib/udev/rules.d$ grep -i ttyusb /lib/udev/rules.d/*

looks the same to me.
And an ls -l /dev/ttyUSB* gives this:
gene@coyote:~/.heyu$ ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 15 15:17 /dev/ttyUSB0
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 1 Jun 15 12:22 /dev/ttyUSB1

 heyu's x10config has TTY=/dev/ttyUSB0,
 gene@coyote:~/.heyu$ grep -i ttyusb x10config
TTY    /dev/ttyUSB0

but heyu runs as me since I compiled it and root installed it

And:
gene@coyote:~/.heyu$ but a "heyu info" (which should
return a list of the 16 house A addresses, their state,
and the cm11a clock time ad battery status)

but "heyu info" returns:
HEYU: Can't open tty line.  Check the permissions.

Nut was installed from the bullseye repo, and it is
in the next boat over, using /dev/ttyUSB1, AND
saying Check the permissions.

I just changed those 2 devices to gene:gene, and
0777 which should have fixed heyu, but it didn't
so I put it back to original. So the problem after the 32nd install,
and 2 reboots because I downloaded the memtest86, v9.4 free
version put it on a sd card in a card reader, and ran it one pass
with zero errors, and the perms problem now seems to have
escalated. AppArmor is installed, is it now a 2nd cause for a
perms denial?

> I think the packages they belong to are installed just as Recommends.
>
> [ … snipped stuff about solder and email ?fonts … ]
>
> Cheers,
> David.

Take care and stay well, David.

[Anssi Saari]

gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> writes:

> now my additional reply is munged, backspaces or Del's will not "take"
> What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level, whats wrong
> with > >> etc for quote indicators? There's a button containing an A
> overlaid by a graphical double square as the last line above the window
> that claims to "remove text styling" but it does nothing. Under options
> ->delivery format, plain text is checked, but obviously its still sending
> and rendering what I see as HTML. That's not the end of the bug list

Just a note, in my end your post is just text:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Not HTML, not multipart/alternative with one part text and one HTML. I
don't know if there's any filtering in-between, I read this list via
Gmane's NNTP server.

> This install feels good yet, but at 36 hours uptime, I've used
> half the typical uptime I've managed in 30 previous installs.
> I have had to replace some memory, but now memtest can't
> be found, I guess because it is a 16 bit build, and can't be
> changed. But it ran ON THIS 6 core i5, probably 8 or 9 times
> pre bullseye.

Debian 11 packages memtest86 and memtest86+ in the main repository with
those package names exactly. Those are quite old and if you managed a
UEFI installation they aren't bootable.

> So what replaces it? From the thread about its MIA status, I
> am not the only one wanting it or a 64 bit substitute back
> on the grub menu.
>
> I have a $100 bill for the talented coder who brings that
> or a new 64 bit from scratch version back.

The commercial memtest86 v9 Pro from Passmark goes for $44 today. They
have a free edition too with limited features.

> It does not!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm screaming about.
> It sets the perms so only root can use them. I just
> plugged at least one of them in:
> root@coyote:/lib/udev/rules.d# ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
> crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 15 05:31 /dev/ttyUSB0
>
> 020660. The common user can't touch it. So what IS
> the "approved fix" so the user CAN use it? A fix that
> will actually survive a reboot.  That's the question
> asked that every reply so far has ignored.

I've looked into this and I have a draft of another post about that but
basically it looks like it'll amount to just "I don't know why" and "it
works for me." I need to test a few things though.

A rude hack to fix the permissions would be to setup /etc/rc.local and
do your chgrps and/or chmods in there. Instructions at

https://blog.wijman.net/enable-rc-local-in-debian-bullseye/ for example.

[Anssi Saari]

David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk> writes:

> As it happens, I find I have (but don't use):

> $ grep -i ttyusb /lib/udev/rules.d/*

I actually found this in 50-udev-default.rules:

KERNEL=="tty[A-Z]*[0-9]|ttymxc[0-9]*|pppox[0-9]*|ircomm[0-9]*|noz[0-9]*|rfcomm[0-9]*", GROUP="dialout"

So that should set the group for ttySx and ttyUSBx also to dialout and
in fact I see exactly that happening in my Debian 11 router which has
devices ttyS0-ttyS3 and ttyUSB0-ttyUSB4:

$ ls -l /dev/ttyUSB* /dev/ttyS*
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 4, 64 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyS0
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 4, 65 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyS1
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 4, 66 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyS2
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 4, 67 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyS3
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyUSB0
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 1 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyUSB1
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 2 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyUSB2
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 3 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyUSB3
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 4 Jun 13 12:12 /dev/ttyUSB4

I didn't find a rule which sets the perms for these to 0660 but
something does that for me.

This rule comes with the udev package itself so it should be always
installed in a Debian installation.

Still, it seems for Gene these are overwritten somehow but I don't know
why or how. I have exactly one USB-to-serial cable I can try to plug in
and see what happens. However it's a CP210x and I think Gene's stuff is
FTDI.

[gene heskett]

I now have that one installed on an sd card in a reader, works fine.
I rebooted, found it in the bios, and ran it one pass, no errors.

>> It does not!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm screaming about.
>> It sets the perms so only root can use them. I just
>> plugged at least one of them in:
>> root@coyote:/lib/udev/rules.d# ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
>> crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 15 05:31 /dev/ttyUSB0
>>
>> 020660. The common user can't touch it. So what IS
>> the "approved fix" so the user CAN use it? A fix that
>> will actually survive a reboot.  That's the question
>> asked that every reply so far has ignored.
> I've looked into this and I have a draft of another post about that but
> basically it looks like it'll amount to just "I don't know why" and "it
> works for me." I need to test a few things though.
>
> A rude hack to fix the permissions would be to setup /etc/rc.local and
> do your chgrps and/or chmods in there. Instructions at
>
> https://blog.wijman.net/enable-rc-local-in-debian-bullseye/ for example.

I just did all that, so now I have an /etc/rc.local but not an rc-local
but he changes from rc.local to rc-local in the middle. confusing.

So which is it. I originally created an rc.local, changed it to
rc-local, and back with mv.
But a
root@coyote:/etc# systemctl status rc-local
● rc-local.service - /etc/rc.local Compatibility
     Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service;
enabled-runtime; vendor preset: enabled)
    Drop-In: /usr/lib/systemd/system/rc-local.service.d
             └─debian.conf
     Active: active (exited) since Thu 2022-06-16 07:50:14 EDT; 19min ago
       Docs: man:systemd-rc-local-generator(8)
    Process: 49522 ExecStart=/etc/rc.local start (code=exited,
status=0/SUCCESS)
        CPU: 764us

Jun 16 07:50:14 coyote systemd[1]: Starting /etc/rc.local Compatibility...
Jun 16 07:50:14 coyote systemd[1]: Started /etc/rc.local Compatibility.

Which looks good. So now I put what I want in which file? in this rc.local?
or do I create an rc-local and put the needed chowns, chgrps chmods in
yet another new file?

What I have done is unplugged them in order to delete the /dev entries,
so an ls -l /dev/ttyUSB* returns this:
ls: cannot access '/dev/ttyUSB*': No such file or directory

Then I plugged  them back in, getting this for an ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
root@coyote:/etc# ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Jun 16 08:18 /dev/ttyUSB0
crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 1 Jun 16 08:18 /dev/ttyUSB1

Now, I'm not aware of who heyu runs as, probably gene since I'm the
one running it and there is no user heyu.

Now, 2 new questions:

So what do I put in this rc.local to allow me, gene, to use /dev/ttyUSB0,
which has the cm11a on the other side of an fdti adaptor?

Then:
root@coyote:/etc# grep nut group
nut:x:122:
root@coyote:/etc# grep nut passwd
nut:x:115:122::/var/lib/nut:/usr/sbin/nologin

So what do I put in this rc.local to enable nut to use /dev/ttyUSB1,
which is
an APC 1500 UPS.

Both are returning no perms errors now
gene@coyote:~$ heyu info
starting heyu_relay

HEYU: Can't open tty line.  Check the permissions.

and as root:
root@coyote:/dev# /etc/init.d/nut-server start
Starting nut-server (via systemctl): nut-server.service.
root@coyote:/dev# /etc/init.d/nut-client start
Starting nut-client (via systemctl): nut-client.service.

And journalctl -xe:
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote systemd[1]: Starting Network UPS Tools - power
device monitor and shutdown controller...
░░ Subject: A start job for unit nut-monitor.service has begun execution
░░ Defined-By: systemd
░░ Support: https://www.debian.org/support
░░
░░ A start job for unit nut-monitor.service has begun execution.
░░
░░ The job identifier is 7210.
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51112]: fopen /run/nut/upsmon.pid: No such
file or directory
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51112]: UPS: myups@localhost (master)
(power value 1)
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51112]: Using power down flag file
/etc/killpower
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51112]: /etc/nut/upsmon.conf line 234:
invalid directive REPLBATT : The UPS battery is bad and needs to be replaced
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51112]: /etc/nut/upsmon.conf line 260:
invalid directive WALL - Write the message to all users on the system
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote systemd[1]: nut-monitor.service: Can't open PID
file /run/nut/upsmon.pid (yet?) after start: Operation not permitted
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51113]: Startup successful
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote systemd[1]: nut-monitor.service: Supervising
process 51114 which is not our child. We'll most likely not notice when
it exits.
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote systemd[1]: Started Network UPS Tools - power
device monitor and shutdown controller.
░░ Subject: A start job for unit nut-monitor.service has finished
successfully
░░ Defined-By: systemd
░░ Support: https://www.debian.org/support
░░
░░ A start job for unit nut-monitor.service has finished successfully.
░░
░░ The job identifier is 7210.
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51114]: Init SSL without certificate database
Jun 16 08:43:00 coyote upsmon[51114]: Login on UPS [myups@localhost]
failed - got [ERR ACCESS-DENIED]
Jun 16 08:43:05 coyote upsmon[51114]: Poll UPS [myups@localhost] failed
- Driver not connected
Jun 16 08:43:05 coyote upsmon[51114]: Communications with UPS
myups@localhost lost
Jun 16 08:43:10 coyote upsmon[51114]: Poll UPS [myups@localhost] failed
- Driver not connected
Jun 16 08:43:10 coyote upsmon[51114]: UPS myups@localhost is unavailable

The nut people say the first line error about SSL can be ignored.
root:ls -l /run/nut:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 nut  nut  6 Jun 16 08:42 upsd.pid
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6 Jun 16 08:43 upsmon.pid

nut-server?
but upsmon, running as root. has no perms either.
new install, comes totall unconfigured, could be miss-configured, but
little is available
as help files, and I've changed mail agents so don't recall the nut
lists server address.

Thanks, Anssi Saari, take care and stay well.

[gene heskett]

Yes, I had so much trouble with prolific crap I eventually threrw it away.

$40 1998 dollars for junk. At Radio Shack of course. :(
And I wish someone could tell me how to fix tbirds busted quoting, I wrote
what starts with "yes" above and "I" CANNOT remove the quoting that
looks like
Anssi Saari wrote it. tbird is buggier than 10 day old road kill in
August! I
just did fix it, but extensive keyboard calisthentics were required.

Thanks Anssi Saari, take care & stay well.

[David Wright]

I don't have any of these devices, so the closest I can manage is a
mouse that keeps disconnecting and reconnecting every few minutes,
which means it loses its acceleration settings.

I've run

$ udevadm monitor -k -p

and

$ udevadm monitor -u -p

in two xterms, dumping the output to files, and I've kept a copy of
the corresponding kern.log to match up with them. I need to find
time to peruse it all.

I was going to suggest to Gene to run these commands, to see where
the serial numbers of his two devices are given, and which attribute
gives them, as Gene plugs the devices into the ports.

If you have /lib/udev/rules.d/60-serial.rules, which runs after the
above, you can see some more specific rules for ttyUSB[0-9]* devices.
I need to read up on what IMPORT{builtin}="usb_id" does, as that's
a udev rule that I've not used before.

(Actually, /I/ need to read up on stuff like
IMPORT{builtin}="hwdb 'mouse:$env{ID_BUS}:v$attr{id/vendor}p$attr{id/product}:name:$attr{nam
e}:'", …
whatever that does, from 70-mouse.rules.)

But it looks as if a file /etc/udev/rules.d/60-serial.rules
could be coerced into creating symlinks called /dev/<serial-number>
for each device (solves the "swapping" problem), and setting
the group/permissions for the ttyUSBn itself. Of course, we
don't know what permissions /do/ work yet, from Gene's posts.

Gene needs to copy that file, and add a simple rule to do something,
anything, to check it works, like touching a file or creating a
symlink (named with a timestamp). Gene might get a feel for how udev
operates, by doing something simple like that.

Cheers,
David.

[Anssi Saari]

gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> writes:

> I just did all that, so now I have an /etc/rc.local but not an rc-local
> but he changes from rc.local to rc-local in the middle. confusing.
>
> So which is it. I originally created an rc.local, changed it to
> rc-local, and back with mv.

The script file is /etc/rc.local but the systemd service name is
rc-local.

> Now, I'm not aware of who heyu runs as, probably gene since I'm the
> one running it and there is no user heyu.
>
> Now, 2 new questions:
>
> So what do I put in this rc.local to allow me, gene, to use /dev/ttyUSB0,
> which has the cm11a on the other side of an fdti adaptor?

Since you seem to have the expected permissions for /dev/ttyUSB0 and
/dev/ttyUSB1 maybe you could just add gene and nut users to the dialout
group? adduser gene dialout and adduser nut dialout.

But if you really want to use rc.local then setting the group to nut
for the UPS line /dev/ttyUSB1 would work, so just

chgrp nut /dev/ttyUSB1

And then chgrp gene /dev/ttyUSB0

Hope it helps!

[gene heskett]

Absolutely the magic twanger Anssi. I put it all in rc.local, or in
/etc/group
then ran rc.local for S&G, checked the devices were changed, restarted
nut-server and nut-client, works as expected, then ran "heyu info" as me
and got the expected response.

Finally, someone was not afraid to answer my questions.

Thank you Anssi, take care and stay well.

[Felix Miata]

Felix Miata composed on 2022-06-15 07:26 (UTC-0400):

> I don't even try to use FOSS memtest86+ on UEFI PCs. Instead, I use the free
> version of the proprietary memtest86 from https://www.memtest86.com/. I run it
> from this Grub stanza in /boot/grub/custom.cfg on my fastest/newest x86_64 PC:

> menuentry "memtest86 7.4 EFI" {
> search --no-floppy --label --set=root TM8P01ESP
> chainloader /mt74x64.efi
> }

IIRC, to get mt74x64.efi, and later mt83x64.efi, I had to loop mount the free to
download bootable .iso and copy it off to a Grub-visible location. mt83x64.efi
does work on my 11th Gen i5-11400 loaded from Grub-efi as above:

Clk: 4235MHz
L1 cache: 80K 468.40 GB/s
L2 cache: 512K 95.10 GB/s
L3 cache: 12288K 48.46 GB/s
DDR4 2400: 15.7G 23.81 GB/s

[Anssi Saari]

Felix Miata <mrm...@earthlink.net> writes:

>> menuentry "memtest86 7.4 EFI" {
>> search --no-floppy --label --set=root TM8P01ESP
>> chainloader /mt74x64.efi
>> }
>
> IIRC, to get mt74x64.efi, and later mt83x64.efi, I had to loop mount the free to
> download bootable .iso and copy it off to a Grub-visible location. mt83x64.efi
> does work on my 11th Gen i5-11400 loaded from Grub-efi as above:

Thanks. I actually ponied up for the Pro version since I wanted to test
the ECC error injection stuff but haven't gotten around to doing that
yet. Should be easier like this, I don't like fiddling with memory
sticks if I don't have to. Unfortunately I've realized two of my four
ECC systems are BIOS only so won't be able to test that ECC actually
works.

[David Wright]

I missed seeing the answer to your first question, at the beginning of
the month, where you asked how to determine which way round the ttyUSBs
have been assigned at boot.¹ I've only seen your reports of unplugging
and replugging the connections each time. I'm afraid that's the question
I was interested in answering by means of the example I gave.

Until you know which is which, you can't reliably assign the port to
TTY in nut (which should set the ownerships itself, shouldn't it?).
I don't know about those for heyu as it's not in Debian at present.

¹ "As a furinstance, I used to be able to cat a /dev/ttyUSB*, which made
self indentifying which was which easy, cuz if you unplug a cm11a, it
will send … … …".

Cheers,
David.

[gene heskett]

On 6/18/22 19:26, Chuck Zmudzinski wrote:
Going thru some old email and found I had tagged this message which
contains some unfinished business someone might clarify now:

> On 6/15/22 7:14 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
>> gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):
>>
>>> What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level
>>
>> That's taken care of here with one or both of these two entries in prefs.js in the
>> profiledir:

what or where is this "profiledir:"? after sudo updatedb today, I find this:
gene@coyote:~$ locate prefs.js
/home/amanda/.mozilla/firefox/nz58vim6.default-esr/prefs.js
/home/gene/.local/share/digikam/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
/home/gene/.local/share/kmail2/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
/home/gene/.local/share/konqueror/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
/home/gene/.local/share/plasmashell/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
/home/gene/.local/share/thumbnail.so/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
/home/gene/.moonchild productions/pale moon/1n4tfecn.default/prefs.js
/home/gene/.mozilla/firefox/cfkfrtdm.default-esr/prefs.js
/home/gene/.mozilla/firefox/f8j7d2lj.default-esr/prefs.js
/home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/chrome_debugger_profile/prefs.js
/home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/prefs.js
/home/gene/bin/firefox/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js
/usr/lib/firefox-esr/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js
/usr/share/thunderbird/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js

I count 8 prefs.js in the above list, so which one is actually being
talked about here?

>>
>> user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
>> user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);
>>
>> I haven't noticed whether or not in GUI preferences if either has a counterpart.
>

> I also use this setting to help get rid of the vertical bar:
>
>             user_pref("mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed", false);
>
> and I take care to check Options-> Delivery Format is set to
no such option shows in my current copy here. Makes it kinda hard to check.

> "Plain Text Only" before sending a message.
This is not "sticky" ? s/b :o(>
>
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis

Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

[Tom Furie]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2022 at 06:58:20PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

> gene@coyote:~$ locate prefs.js
> /home/amanda/.mozilla/firefox/nz58vim6.default-esr/prefs.js
> /home/gene/.local/share/digikam/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
> /home/gene/.local/share/kmail2/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
> /home/gene/.local/share/konqueror/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
> /home/gene/.local/share/plasmashell/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
> /home/gene/.local/share/thumbnail.so/QtWebEngine/Default/user_prefs.json
> /home/gene/.moonchild productions/pale moon/1n4tfecn.default/prefs.js
> /home/gene/.mozilla/firefox/cfkfrtdm.default-esr/prefs.js
> /home/gene/.mozilla/firefox/f8j7d2lj.default-esr/prefs.js
> /home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/chrome_debugger_profile/prefs.js
> /home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/prefs.js
> /home/gene/bin/firefox/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js
> /usr/lib/firefox-esr/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js
> /usr/share/thunderbird/defaults/pref/channel-prefs.js
>
> I count 8 prefs.js in the above list, so which one is actually being talked
> about here?

I count two in your home directory that refer to Thunderbird, one of
which belongs to what looks like a profile you set up for debugging
Chrome. By a very short process of elimination, that only leaves one
prefs.js of interest.

--
True to our past we work with an inherited, observed, and accepted vision of
personal futility, and of the beauty of the world.
-- David Mamet

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-12-06 18:58 (UTC-0500):

>> Felix Miata wrote:

>>> gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):

>>>> What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level

>>> That's taken care of here with one or both of these two entries in prefs.js in the
>>> profiledir:

> what or where is this "profiledir:"?

Mozilla's own product profiles can be located anywhere a user chooses to put them.
Profile names and locations are controlled for

Firefox in ~/.mozilla/firefox/profiles.ini.
SeaMonkey in ~/.mozilla/seamonkey/profiles.ini
ThunderBird in ~/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Derivatives of them may be in a subdirectory in ~/.config/ or in ~/.*, such as

Pale Moon in ~/.moonchild productions/pale moon/profiles.ini
...
> /home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/prefs.js
...

> I count 8 prefs.js in the above list, so which one is actually being
> talked about here?

Verify by examining ~/.thunderbird/profiles.ini.

[gene heskett]

On 12/6/22 19:39, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2022-12-06 18:58 (UTC-0500):
>
>>> Felix Miata wrote:
>
>>>> gene heskett composed on 2022-06-15 06:34 (UTC-0400):
>
>>>>> What the heck is this vertical bar it uses for a quote level
>
>>>> That's taken care of here with one or both of these two entries in prefs.js in the
>>>> profiledir:
>
>> what or where is this "profiledir:"?
>
> Mozilla's own product profiles can be located anywhere a user chooses to put them.
> Profile names and locations are controlled for
>
> Firefox in ~/.mozilla/firefox/profiles.ini.
> SeaMonkey in ~/.mozilla/seamonkey/profiles.ini
> ThunderBird in ~/.thunderbird/profiles.ini
>
> Derivatives of them may be in a subdirectory in ~/.config/ or in ~/.*, such as
>
> Pale Moon in ~/.moonchild productions/pale moon/profiles.ini
> ...
>> /home/gene/.thunderbird/f37v8icg.default-default/prefs.js
> ...
>> I count 8 prefs.js in the above list, so which one is actually being
>> talked about here?
>
> Verify by examining ~/.thunderbird/profiles.ini.

Thank you Felix.

I did that but the prefs.js at that address does not contain any of the
the strings referenced in the original reply from Chuck Zmudzinski on
6/18/22.

I'd love to be able to install TDE, which would give me back the best
email agent linux ever had, kmail-3.5 but with all its bugs fixed, but
the first TDE package I select, generates over 300 hits of dependency
hell from synaptic.

So I'm stuck with t-bird and its plethora of oddly spec'd hot keys that
do nothing for the user but screw things up, many times doing nothing
but stealing the focus w/o any popup. Just typing to reply to this msg
has caused 6 pop-ups that had to be closed before I could resume typing
in the middle of a word. Twice I've had to reclick on the blinking
curser before it would resume accepting what I type. Yet folks accept
that? More bugs than a 10 day old road kill in the northern hemispheres
July.

Not your fault.

Take care & stay well, Felix.

[David Wright]

Make a change to your preferences, save it, then:

$ find . -type f -mmin -1440 -printf '%Ta%TH:%TM:%.5TS%11s %P\n' | sort -n -k 2 | less # one day

Edit the . to a reasonable top of tree, 1440 to more like ten,
and the sort order, 2 (size) to 1 (timestamp) or 3 (filename).

That command will tell you what change in the last few minutes.

> I'd love to be able to install TDE, which would give me back the best
> email agent linux ever had, kmail-3.5 but with all its bugs fixed, but
> the first TDE package I select, generates over 300 hits of dependency
> hell from synaptic.

/var/log/apt/history keeps a record of what's installed by APT.
Look at the current contents and see whether that's true for
synaptic. If so, go for it; you can easily purge them all again
if you don't get what you want, by editing the history.

BTW, following the current rowlett thread, and seeing recommendations
for kate as an autoindenting editor, I typed:

$ apt-get -s install kate

to give, with Recommends included:

0 upgraded, 167 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

So 300 packages for a DE doesn't seem unreasonable.

> So I'm stuck with t-bird and its plethora of oddly spec'd hot keys
> that do nothing for the user but screw things up, many times doing
> nothing but stealing the focus w/o any popup. Just typing to reply to
> this msg has caused 6 pop-ups that had to be closed before I could
> resume typing in the middle of a word. Twice I've had to reclick on
> the blinking curser before it would resume accepting what I type. Yet
> folks accept that? More bugs than a 10 day old road kill in the
> northern hemispheres July.

Cheers,
David.

[Max Nikulin]

On 07/12/2022 06:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>> profiledir:
> what or where is this "profiledir:"? after sudo updatedb today, I find

Querying search engine "thunderbird profile directory" gives
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-thunderbird-stores-user-data
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird

How to find your profile

- Click on the menu button or menu bar.
- From the Help menu, click Troubleshooting Information.
- In the Application Basics section, Profile Directory, click on Open
Directory.
- The Files window will show the name of the profile as well as the path
to it.

>>>     user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
>>>     user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);

You may bypass looking up for the profile directory and change or create
any options in Hamburger menu / Settings / Config Editor (at the bottom
of the page).

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-12-06 21:03 (UTC-0500):

> I'd love to be able to install TDE, which would give me back the best
> email agent linux ever had, kmail-3.5 but with all its bugs fixed, but
> the first TDE package I select, generates over 300 hits of dependency
> hell from synaptic.

All my Debians, which I don't keep count of but surely must number in excess
of 50, are /originally/ installed NET, usually by loading the installation
kernel and initrd using Grub, and using a kernel cmdline that includes the
following options:

netcfg/confirm_static=true tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false

IIRC this gives me a Debian with zero X installed, though I could be remembering
wrong and getting a minimal X lacking all the well known DEs and leaving me with
only IceWM and startx.

Next I don't remember whether /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00InstallRecommends has been
created as a consequence of those command line options, or I make it myself, as
it's been a while since I needed a fresh installation, but it contains:

APT::Install-Recommends "false";

Only after this is done, I follow the /optional/ instructions on:

<https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Debian_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Instructions>

This means after sources & GPG configuration, I do:

apt install tdebase-trinity tdm-trinity konsole-trinity ksnapshot-trinity

Once this completes & I reboot to TDM, it's just a matter of logging in and checking
which extra packages I want that the base install didn't include, then adding them
with apt or aptitude. I have a working installation with no dependency shenanigans,
and no Gnome or other bloat that installing web browsers doesn't force.

I think I may have opened synaptic many many moons ago in *buntu before I ever
installed a Debian, but I doubt any of my Debians have synaptic installed. Only
apt/apt-get/aptitude are used for software installations here.

The currently booted state is:

# inxi -S
System:
Host: gb250 Kernel: 5.19.0-2-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: Trinity
v: R14.0.13 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid
# df -h /
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/nvme0n1p13 7.7G 4.3G 3.1G 59% /
# dpkg -l | grep trinity | wc -l
45
# dpkg -l | wc -l
883

Stats are similar with my Busters and Bullseyes, most of which are online
upgrades from Stretch or earlier releases. On this particular host, Buster
was the virgin on a then new Gigabyte Kaby Lake motherboard with NVME.

[gene heskett]

On 12/6/22 22:53, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 07/12/2022 06:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> profiledir:
>> what or where is this "profiledir:"? after sudo updatedb today, I find
>
> Querying search engine "thunderbird profile directory" gives
> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-thunderbird-stores-user-data
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird
>
> How to find your profile
>
> - Click on the menu button or menu bar.
> - From the Help menu, click Troubleshooting Information.
> - In the Application Basics section, Profile Directory, click on Open
> Directory.
> - The Files window will show the name of the profile as well as the path
> to it.
>

And when I find it. the prefs.js file does not contain any of the
strings mentioned in the reply I quoted and everyone but you have clipped.

Am I to add these below? According to the top of the file, t-bird must
be stopped before editing as it saves this anew when stopping.

>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);
>
> You may bypass looking up for the profile directory and change or create
> any options in Hamburger menu / Settings / Config Editor (at the bottom
> of the page).
>

Hamburger? does not exist.
Confusing...

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-12-07 03:02 (UTC-0500):

> Hamburger? does not exist.

Not likely you're right on this one. If using alternate theming on your web
browsers I suppose it could be missing.

<https://lmgtfy.app/?q=hamburger+menu>

<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1202327>

[Kamil Jońca]

gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> writes:

> On 12/6/22 22:53, Max Nikulin wrote:
>> On 07/12/2022 06:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> profiledir:
>>> what or where is this "profiledir:"? after sudo updatedb today, I
>>> find
>> Querying search engine "thunderbird profile directory" gives
>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-thunderbird-stores-user-data
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird
>> How to find your profile
>> - Click on the menu button or menu bar.
>> - From the Help menu, click Troubleshooting Information.
>> - In the Application Basics section, Profile Directory, click on
>> Open Directory.
>> - The Files window will show the name of the profile as well as the
>> path to it.
>>
> And when I find it. the prefs.js file does not contain any of the
> strings mentioned in the reply I quoted and everyone but you have
> clipped.
>
> Am I to add these below? According to the top of the file, t-bird must
> be stopped before editing as it saves this anew when stopping.


>
>>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
>>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);

I am not sure, but ... prefs.js is overwritten by thunderbird, if you
want changes to be persistend you should edit (possibly create) user.js
file.


--
http://stopstopnop.pl/stop_stopnop.pl_o_nas.html

[Felix Miata]

Kamil Jońca composed on 2022-12-07 09:16 (UTC+0100):

> gene heskett wrote:

>> Am I to add these below? According to the top of the file, t-bird must
>> be stopped before editing as it saves this anew when stopping.

>>>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoteasblock", false);
>>>>>>     user_pref("mail.quoted_graphical", false);

> I am not sure, but ... prefs.js is overwritten by thunderbird, if you
> want changes to be persistend you should edit (possibly create) user.js
> file.

To edit a Mozilla profile's prefs.js file successfully requires the app be closed
and the additions be placed in alphabetical order. Mozilla apps rewrite the file
with every use, so you cannot expect random changes to stick. Those you wish
guaranteed to persist must be written to user.js, which you must create and manage
all by yourself instead. Mozilla apps treat user.js as a readonly file to be read
at each startup.

[gene heskett]

That I would be ok with, but it wants to totally purge the rest of the
install, including all of X11, not at all encouraging.

And rebooting now is scary, since mid october it sits dead in the water
for anywhere up to 20 minutes with zero disk activity before loading
grub or the bios editor. Exiting the bios editor to do yet another
reboot, kills another 10 to 20 minutes before it loads the grub menu.

Once it boots, it runs pretty normally. The latest memtest86 update I
have, downloaded about 6 months ago, gives the 32GB of memory a clean
bill of health.

I have a usb tree that looks like a 30 year old weeping willow, lots of
stuff including 2 usb<->serial adaptors, neither of which are connected
to anything even remotely resembling a tty for the blind, but the
installer doesn't ask if I want orca or brltty, it just puts them in
rendering the machine unusable to a sighted, hearing person.

But it took 20+ installs for someone to tell me I had to unplug all that
stuff to do a normal install. Buster Just Worked, bullseye has been a
disaster from the gitgo. Most of that disaster created by the installer
going bats--- crazy when it finds a usb<->serial adapter. It might be
connected to a cm11a for home automation, it might be connected to a ups
but the installer ASSUMES its connected to a tty and puts all that stuff
in w/o asking the user. The chance of actually having a tty are under
1%, ASK the user!

>> So I'm stuck with t-bird and its plethora of oddly spec'd hot keys
>> that do nothing for the user but screw things up, many times doing
>> nothing but stealing the focus w/o any popup. Just typing to reply to
>> this msg has caused 6 pop-ups that had to be closed before I could
>> resume typing in the middle of a word. Twice I've had to reclick on
>> the blinking curser before it would resume accepting what I type. Yet
>> folks accept that? More bugs than a 10 day old road kill in the
>> northern hemispheres July.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>

> .
Take care and stay well everybody.

[Bret Busby]

On 07/12/2022 14:36, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2022-12-06 21:03 (UTC-0500):
>
>> I'd love to be able to install TDE, which would give me back the best
>> email agent linux ever had, kmail-3.5 but with all its bugs fixed, but
>> the first TDE package I select, generates over 300 hits of dependency
>> hell from synaptic.
>

Whilst I use Thunderbird (currently 102.4.2 (64-bit) ) as a webmail
application, to access and deal with email on a multiple times daily,
basis, my real email application, which you should perhaps try, is
alpine, the MUA previously known as pine. It is simple to install and
use, and, very powerful (I currently have about 20GB of email, going
back about twenty years, that it manages, with hundreds of filters, and,
hundreds of folders.

It is perhaps, the oldest surviving email application (through its
incarnations), and, it is the most powerful, and stable, email
application that I have encountered. I think that I have been using it
for about thirty years.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

[gene heskett]

While this is a relatively new Asus. And I've run aptitude about 10
times but I do not let it do anything to my systems, 4 times now I've
lost it all and had to re-install from the dvd's because aptitude
removes anything that gets in the way. Last time was removing gedit
after it destroyed a working LinuxCNC the third time, it took the
kernel. all of gnome and all of x ANAICT. So I don't trust it to
actually DO anything. apt, apt-get, dpkg, synaptic all just work. But
here, tde is dependency hell. And IDK why.

Can I have synaptic keep a list so I could post it?

Thanks Felix.

[gene heskett]

I assume in this same subdir?
>

Thank you Kamil

[gene heskett]

On 12/7/22 03:33, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2022-12-07 03:02 (UTC-0500):
>
>> Hamburger? does not exist.
>
> Not likely you're right on this one. If using alternate theming on your web
> browsers I suppose it could be missing.
>
> <https://lmgtfy.app/?q=hamburger+menu>

firefox won't show this page.
>
> <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1202327>

But this one does. Apparently called Hamburger because the 3 bars icon
resemble the layers of the sandwich. I guess I'll have to install
Jargon? ;o)>

Thanks Felix.

[Felix Miata]

gene heskett composed on 2022-12-07 04:21 (UTC-0500):

> here, tde is dependency hell. And IDK why.

Did you ever start with a completed bare bones minimal (no X) installation,
followed by a minimal TDE installation, which pulls in only as much of X as it
requires, and rebooting, before adding preempt, CNC or anything else? Capturing
screen output from installation failures should be easy if done with apt in Konsole.

> Can I have synaptic keep a list so I could post it?

List of what? Post for what reason?

[gene heskett]

Sounds like I could be a user, Bret. Can it import from t-bird?
Thank you.

> ..
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> ..............
>

[Anssi Saari]

Bret Busby <br...@busby.net> writes:

> It is perhaps, the oldest surviving email application (through its
> incarnations)

I did just see a patch for Elm posted in alt.sources so Alpine is maybe
the second oldest surviving email client. Not that it's packaged for
Debian. Looks like they offer .deb creation scripts though at
http://www.elmme-mailer.org/

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2022 at 09:57:11PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> Make a change to your preferences, save it, then:
>
> $ find . -type f -mmin -1440 -printf '%Ta%TH:%TM:%.5TS%11s %P\n' | sort -n -k 2 | less # one day
>
> Edit the . to a reasonable top of tree, 1440 to more like ten,
> and the sort order, 2 (size) to 1 (timestamp) or 3 (filename).
>
> That command will tell you what change in the last few minutes.

Here's my version:

rlart() {
local day time path
find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
sort -zn |
while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
done
}

No restriction on time, so you'd probably pipe it to something like
tail, or tail -n20. Or pipe it to less, then jump to the bottom ("G")
and read upward. Or... don't pipe it at all, let it spew the whole
result to the terminal, then just start reading upward, scrolling if
needed.

[rhkr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, December 07, 2022 07:18:57 AM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Here's my version:
>
> rlart() {
> local day time path
> find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
> sort -zn |
> while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
> done
> }

I wonder if youi could expound somewhat on that:

(Aside: although I use bash, and have written a few simple scripts, I am by no
means a bash guru.)

* Might I infer that you have some large bash (presumably) script (file)
containing various functions (e.g., rlart) to perform a variety of tasks?

* If so, how do you invoke those functions (I mean the syntax) -- I guess
it would be something like:

$ <name of script file> rlart(<parameter(s)>)

Thanks!

--
rhk

(sig revised 20221206)

If you reply: snip, snip, and snip again; leave attributions; avoid HTML;
avoid top posting; and keep it "on list". (Oxford comma (and semi-colon)
included at no charge.) If you revise the topic, change the Subject: line.
If you change the topic, start a new thread.

Writing is often meant for others to read and understand (legal documents
excepted?) -- make it easier for your reader by various means, including
liberal use of whitespace (short paragraphs, separated by whitespace / blank
lines) and minimal use of (obscure?) jargon, abbreviations, acronyms, and
references.

If someone has already responded to a question, decide whether any response
you add will be helpful or not ...

A picture is worth a thousand words. A video (or "audio"): not so much --
divide by 10 for each minute of video (or audio) or create a transcript and
edit it to 10% of the original.

A speaker who uses ahhs, ums, or such may have a real physical or mental
disability, or may be showing disrespect for his listeners by not properly
preparing in advance and thinking before speaking. (Remember Cicero who did
not have enough time to write a short missive.) (That speaker might have been
"trained" to do this by being interrupted often if he pauses.)

A radio (or TV) station which broadcasts speakers with high pitched voices (or
very low pitched / gravelly voices) (which older people might not be able to
hear properly) disrespects its listeners. Likewise if it broadcasts
extraneous or disturbing sounds (like gunfire or crying), or broadcasts
speakers using their native language (with or without an overdubbed
translation).

A person who writes a sig this long probably has issues and disrespects (and
offends) a large number of readers. ;-)
'

[Curt]

On 2022-12-07, gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net> wrote:
>>
>> <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1202327>
>
> But this one does. Apparently called Hamburger because the 3 bars icon
> resemble the layers of the sandwich. I guess I'll have to install
> Jargon? ;o)>

I always called it the BLT menu (a stack of three isomorphic slices of
toast).

I'm kidding.

[gene heskett]

Good for a chuckle anyway. ;o)> Thanks Curt.

[Max Nikulin]

On 07/12/2022 15:02, gene heskett wrote:
> And when I find it. the prefs.js file does not contain any of the
> strings mentioned in the reply I quoted and everyone but you have clipped.
>
> Am I to add these below? According to the top of the file, t-bird must
> be stopped before editing as it saves this anew when stopping.

That is why I suggested you to use built-in config editor. Doesn't your
preferred search engine gives relevant result for "thunderbird config
editor"?
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/config-editor

>> You may bypass looking up for the profile directory and change or
>> create any options in Hamburger menu / Settings / Config Editor (at

---^^^^^^

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2022 at 07:56:53AM -0500, rhkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 07, 2022 07:18:57 AM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Here's my version:
> >
> > rlart() {
> > local day time path
> > find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
> > sort -zn |
> > while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> > printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
> > done
> > }
>
> I wonder if youi could expound somewhat on that:
>
> (Aside: although I use bash, and have written a few simple scripts, I am by no
> means a bash guru.)
>
> * Might I infer that you have some large bash (presumably) script (file)
> containing various functions (e.g., rlart) to perform a variety of tasks?

It's defined in my .bashrc file, so that I can call it interactively.

> * If so, how do you invoke those functions (I mean the syntax) -- I guess
> it would be something like:
>
> $ <name of script file> rlart(<parameter(s)>)

No, the function is defined directly in my interactive shell, because
of the lines in .bashrc. So I just call it by name:

unicorn:~/tmp$ rlart | tail
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/zmalloc.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/fin.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/files.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/scancode.c
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/scancode.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/matherr.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/fcall.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/version.o
2021-08-23 13:10:38 ./mawk-1.3.4-20200120/mawk
2022-12-06 21:55:39 ./shot.png

If you prefer, you could place the code in a script. The script would
be named "rlart", and it would need to be in a directory in your PATH.
Remove the function wrapper and the "local" declaration, and include
a proper shebang line (#!/bin/bash since I'm using bash extensions),
and of course chmod +x the script.

[David Wright]

On Wed 07 Dec 2022 at 07:56:53 (-0500), rhkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 07, 2022 07:18:57 AM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Here's my version:
> >
> > rlart() {
> > local day time path
> > find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
> > sort -zn |
> > while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> > printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
> > done
> > }
>
> I wonder if youi could expound somewhat on that:
>
> (Aside: although I use bash, and have written a few simple scripts, I am by no
> means a bash guru.)
>
> * Might I infer that you have some large bash (presumably) script (file)
> containing various functions (e.g., rlart) to perform a variety of tasks?
>
> * If so, how do you invoke those functions (I mean the syntax) -- I guess
> it would be something like:
>
> $ <name of script file> rlart(<parameter(s)>)

Greg has pasted a bash function as it is defined in a startup file,
presumably ~/.bashrc. If he were to type rlart then you'd see
semicolons at the ends of lines.

Yes, .bashrc gets very large as you add more command definitions;
I split mine up, with separate files for handling caddies/sticks/cards,
transfers between my PCs, and browsers/web-related, plus each host
has its own .bash-1-$HOSTNAME and .bash-9-$HOSTNAME sourced at the
start and end for host-specific configuration. I treat ~/.xsession
and ~/.fvwm/ files the same way. Not forgetting the file that
handles colouring and prompts. About 7000 lines common to all hosts,
with .bashrc containing around 350 functions. Many of these are
variants of one another, of course.

By way of an example, if the file contains:

function installer-on {
[ -z "$1" ] && msgerr "Usage: ${FUNCNAME[0]} hostname [username]
runs ssh to connect to the installer on host hostname which should be
running the network-console. It avoids polluting your known_hosts file
with the ephemeral host key being used by the installer." && return 1
ssh -o GlobalKnownHostsFile=/dev/null -o UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null "${2:-installer}"@"$1"
}

then:

$ type installer-on
installer-on is a function
installer-on ()
{
[ -z "$1" ] && msgerr "Usage: ${FUNCNAME[0]} hostname [username]
runs ssh to connect to the installer on host hostname which should be
running the network-console. It avoids polluting your known_hosts file
with the ephemeral host key being used by the installer." && return 1;
ssh -o GlobalKnownHostsFile=/dev/null -o UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null "${2:-installer}"@"$1"
}
$

and to use it, saving a lot of typing:

$ installer-on acer
ssh: connect to host acer port 22: No route to host
$

Obviously I'm not running the debian-installer at the moment, nor
is acer even switched on. But the second argument has its uses:

$ installer-on localhost auser
The authenticity of host 'localhost (::1)' can't be established.
ECDSA key fingerprint is SHA256:0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz0123456.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no/[fingerprint])? yes
Warning: Permanently added 'localhost' (ECDSA) to the list of known hosts.
Linux axis 5.10.0-19-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.149-2 (2022-10-21) x86_64

The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
[ … ]

Despite the "Permanently added" warning, it has in fact been thrown away.

--

> A speaker who uses ahhs, ums, or such may have a real physical or mental
> disability, or may be showing disrespect for his listeners by not properly
> preparing in advance and thinking before speaking. (Remember Cicero who did
> not have enough time to write a short missive.) (That speaker might have been
> "trained" to do this by being interrupted often if he pauses.)

Margaret Thatcher is a prime example, even making the pages of Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/300744a0

Of course, an initial "Er…" can be an important cue that you're going
to say something. Without it, someone not paying attention to you will
likely miss the first part of your utterance, or at least have to
replay it in their head before comprehending it. I believe our replay
mechanism has been much researched.

Cheers,
David.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2022 at 01:36:31AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2022-12-06 21:03 (UTC-0500):
>
> > I'd love to be able to install TDE, which would give me back the best
> > email agent linux ever had, kmail-3.5 but with all its bugs fixed, but
> > the first TDE package I select, generates over 300 hits of dependency
> > hell from synaptic.
>

Gene,

Just done this to check in a virtual machine. I concur with Felix.

Expert install of Debian 11.5 - standard - text only.
Deselect everything other than standard using tasksel at that stage.
Add the https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Debian_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Instructions /etc/apt/sources.list lines.

Add the GPG key using wget then

apt-get update ; apt-get install aptitude
aptitude install tde-trinity

and it just works. No drama and everything installed from Trinity.

568M / 700 and change packages?

> apt/apt-get/aptitude are used for software installations here.
>

Thanks Felix for the instructions to try.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

[gene heskett]

And you trust aptitude to do that? Maybe 10 times I've looked at a
system with aptitude, 5 times I've asked it to install something, and 4
times its gone wild removing other dependencies that got in its way,
stripped the system so bad it wouldn't reboot. I wound up re-installing
and losing everything because the installer insists on formatting
everything. I've managed to get it mostly running despite the broken
installer everybody else claims works fine, and have around 300 gigs of
work I don't want to lose or re-invent on my 2t /home raid10. 20+ times
I've re-installed debian 11 from scratch. 20+ times I've tried to get
rid of orca and brltty, and 20+ times it would not reboot after killing
them, stuck trying to find them. ow I've gotten rid of the aggravation
of having my speakers yelling at me, doing a lousy job of pronouncing
every key press. But since the middle of October its decided to sit
silently, no disk activity, for 10 to 20 minutes before loading the bios
or loading grub. Once it loaded grub, it normal. Memtest86 gives 32gigs
of dram a clean bill of health.

That's a chance of loss I won't take until such time as I get another
raid10 setup for amanda to give me a backup, and ATM that is about 3rd
on my priority list. Today I'm half (easy part) done assembling a two
trees saphire-5-plus kit so I've at least 1 working 3d printer to make
parts for two other even bigger printers that I'm going to "tip the can
pretty high" on, running a 60mm/sec printer at 600+mm/sec. One slow
consumer grade 3d printer equals nearly a month to make one woodworkers
vise screw I've designed, and I need to get that down to a week or less
before it becomes affordable.

And at 88 yo, long term (30 years) type 2 diabetic & prostate concerns
are telling me I'm running out of time. I thank those that have tried to
help, but until I know more what the boot problem is, I can't help you
or myself since I've not a clue whats going on.

Painted into a very small corner but hanging on.

Thank you all, take care & stay well.

[Max Nikulin]

On 07/12/2022 19:18, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> rlart() {
> local day time path
> find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
> sort -zn |
> while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
> done
> }

I was not aware of the "read -d ''" feature that allows to work with
null-terminated records, so thank you for the hint. However the read
command strips leading and trailing spaces and newlines from path. What
is the best way to preserve them? I have tried slash (a character
disallowed in file names) instead of space as field separator:

printf 'a///1/1\n\000b/ 2/\000c/3/\000d/4//\000' |
while IFS='/' read -r -d '' num path ; do
printf '%s %q\n' "$num" "$path" ;
done
a $'//1/1\n'
b \ 2
c 3
d 4//

No problem with spaces, leading "//" are preserved, but single trailing
slash is removed after "3".

Another question is if "$@" instead of "${1:-.}" may cause any problem.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 09:53:37PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 07/12/2022 19:18, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >
> > rlart() {
> > local day time path
> > find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0' |
> > sort -zn |
> > while read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> > printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
> > done
> > }
>
> I was not aware of the "read -d ''" feature that allows to work with
> null-terminated records, so thank you for the hint. However the read command
> strips leading and trailing spaces and newlines from path. What is the best
> way to preserve them?

Well, let's see.

unicorn:~$ find .bashrc -printf '%T@ %TY-%Tm-%Td %TT %p\0'
1670415288.2197120110 2022-12-07 07:14:48.2197120110 .bashrcunicorn:~$

> I have tried slash (a character disallowed in file
> names) instead of space as field separator:

The "problem" with that is we have slashes in our pathnames (%p) in
almost all cases. But if we carefully build the read command, I
think it should keep them intact.

unicorn:~$ find ./.bashrc -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' ; echo
1670415288.2197120110/2022-12-07/07:14:48.2197120110/./.bashrc

Yes, that looks OK for parsing with a fixed number of variables on the
read command. Just gotta add IFS=/ and we're good to go.

After editing .bashrc to have this:

rlart() {
local day time path

find "${1:-.}" -type f -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' |
sort -zn |
while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do

printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path"
done
}

let's do a bit of testing:

unicorn:~$ rlart tmp | tail -n5 | sed -n l
2021-08-23 13:10:38 tmp/mawk-1.3.4-20200120/fcall.o$
2021-08-23 13:10:38 tmp/mawk-1.3.4-20200120/version.o$
2021-08-23 13:10:38 tmp/mawk-1.3.4-20200120/mawk$
2022-12-07 18:52:30 tmp/shot.png$
2022-12-08 11:46:11 tmp/ spaces $

Looks correct.

[rhkr...@gmail.com]

Thanks to David Wright and Greg Wooledge for their replies.

Thanks also to David for the reference to the article on Margaret Thatcher --
I'm trying to obtain a copy through my local library (ILL).


On Wednesday, December 07, 2022 11:53:18 AM David Wright wrote:
...

> Margaret Thatcher is a prime example, even making the pages of Nature:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/300744a0
>
> Of course, an initial "Er…" can be an important cue that you're going
> to say something. Without it, someone not paying attention to you will
> likely miss the first part of your utterance, or at least have to
> replay it in their head before comprehending it. I believe our replay
> mechanism has been much researched.

--
rhk

(sig revised 20221206)

If you reply: snip, snip, and snip again; leave attributions; avoid HTML;
avoid top posting; and keep it "on list". (Oxford comma (and semi-colon)
included at no charge.) If you revise the topic, change the Subject: line.
If you change the topic, start a new thread.

Writing is often meant for others to read and understand (legal documents
excepted?) -- make it easier for your reader by various means, including
liberal use of whitespace (short paragraphs, separated by whitespace / blank
lines) and minimal use of (obscure?) jargon, abbreviations, acronyms, and
references.

If someone has already responded to a question, decide whether any response
you add will be helpful or not ...

A picture is worth a thousand words. A video (or "audio"): not so much --
divide by 10 for each minute of video (or audio) or create a transcript and
edit it to 10% of the original.

A speaker who uses ahhs, ums, or such may have a real physical or mental
disability, or may be showing disrespect for his listeners by not properly
preparing in advance and thinking before speaking. (Remember Cicero who did
not have enough time to write a short missive.) (That speaker might have been
"trained" to do this by being interrupted often if he pauses.)

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/12/2022 23:52, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 09:53:37PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
>
>> I have tried slash (a character disallowed in file
>> names) instead of space as field separator:
>
> The "problem" with that is we have slashes in our pathnames (%p) in
> almost all cases. But if we carefully build the read command, I
> think it should keep them intact.

I am trying to figure out if it is possible to avoid stripping of single
(and only single) trailing slash. It is not an issue while "-type f"
selector is used, but I am trying to evaluate if it may be used as a
more general approach.

find dir dir/ dir// | sed -n l
dir$
dir/$
dir//$

find dir dir/ dir// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | sort -zn |

while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do
printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path";

done | sed -n l
2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir//$

Single trailing / disappeared. Using any other character may cause
incorrect path in the output.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Dec 09, 2022 at 10:23:29PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> find dir dir/ dir// | sed -n l
> dir$
> dir/$
> dir//$
>
> find dir dir/ dir// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | sort -zn |
> while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do
> printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path";
> done | sed -n l
> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir//$
>
> Single trailing / disappeared. Using any other character may cause incorrect
> path in the output.

I can't reproduce your result.

unicorn:~$ mkdir tmp/leaf
unicorn:~$ find tmp/leaf tmp/leaf/ tmp/leaf//
tmp/leaf
tmp/leaf/
tmp/leaf//
unicorn:~$ find tmp/leaf tmp/leaf/ tmp/leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "$path"; done
tmp/leaf
tmp/leaf/
tmp/leaf//

Which version of bash are you using, or is it some other shell?

[Max Nikulin]

On 09/12/2022 23:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 09, 2022 at 10:23:29PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>
>> find dir dir/ dir// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | sort -zn |
>> while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do
>> printf '%s %s %s\n' "$day" "${time%.*}" "$path";
>> done | sed -n l
>> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
>> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir$
>> 2022-12-09 22:13:14 dir//$
>>
>> Single trailing / disappeared. Using any other character may cause incorrect
>> path in the output.
>
> I can't reproduce your result.
>
> unicorn:~$ mkdir tmp/leaf

> unicorn:~$ find tmp/leaf tmp/leaf/ tmp/leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "$path"; done
> tmp/leaf
> tmp/leaf/
> tmp/leaf//

It took some time for me to realize why you case is different. Please, try

cd tmp
find leaf leaf/ leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | while IFS=/

read -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "$path"; done

I have found some speculations that it is standard behavior
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52762210/shell-read-sometimes-strips-trailing-delimiter
Unfortunately I can not make similar conclusion after reading the cited
documents. From my point of view
set -- "$var"
is not the same as read. In the latter case remaining part of the line
is assigned to the last variable. The argument that with preserved
trailing separator it is impossible to express single field, does not
work for read as well.

In dash I see the same behavior after dropping unsupported -d and using
\n as record separator.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 07:18:13PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> It took some time for me to realize why you case is different. Please, try
>
> cd tmp
> find leaf leaf/ leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | while IFS=/ read
> -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "$path"; done

unicorn:~/tmp$ find leaf leaf/ leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p\0' | while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "$path"; done
leaf
leaf
leaf//

Well, crap.

> I have found some speculations that it is standard behavior
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52762210/shell-read-sometimes-strips-trailing-delimiter

Shells are the WORST. What a pile of shit.

Stephane's workaround ("inserting an extra : and remove it afterwards")
is probably the way to go.

unicorn:~/tmp$ find leaf leaf/ leaf// -printf '%T@/%TY-%Tm-%Td/%TT/%p/\0' | while IFS=/ read -rd '' _ day time path; do printf '%s\n' "${path%/}"; done
leaf
leaf/
leaf//

This doesn't matter for the "rlart" function, because we're restricting
the output to files. Even in the more general case, find is never going
to write a pathname that ends with "/" except where you begin the search
at "/", or where you add a trailing slash on the starting pathname, as
you did here. No sensible person would do either of those things, or
if they did, they would know enough to ignore the oddity on the first
line of the filtered output.

Now I've got a BashPitfalls section to update too. Damn it.

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Jun 2022 at 19:03:47 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/13/22 14:36, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 01:56:12PM -0400, gene heskett wrote: >>
> > I appear as user 1000 seem to be stuck behind some sort of a >>
> permissions wall. > > SHOW. US.
>
> I got tired of fighting with it Greg, so I did install #32 and installed
> gnome_desktop (that was new) and xfce4 during the install, and
> now things including the screen colors are back to normal,
>
> I've installed the brother printers and scanner drivers and I can modify t
> them by the usual rules. I also set a root pw in addition to adding myself
> to /etc/group in the appropriate places.
↑↑↑↑↑

On Thu 07 Dec 2023 at 20:49:19 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 12/7/23 20:24, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 07, 2023 at 08:06:52PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > Thats bug #1. Single for rescue demands a root pw.
> >
> > This isn't a bug. It's just how things *are*.
> >
> > People who choose not to set a root password are simply setting themselves
> > up for this failure. It *will* happen eventually. I strongly recommend
> > setting a root password on your systems. And you should either *use* it
> > once in a while, so you don't forget what it is, or else make it the same
> > as your regular account's password. So you don't forget what it is.
> >
> > If you *still* choose not to set a root password, then you will need to
> > know how to get around the issue you ran into. You won't be able to use
> > single-user mode to rescue your system, so you'll need other ways. There
> > are two straightforward alternatives: boot from external media (USB or CD
> > or DVD), or learn how to do the "init=/bin/bash" thing from your boot
> > loader, which includes bind-mounting /proc and /dev and so on.
> >
> > .
> I've now set a root pw, about 34 chars, so they'll be a couple eons
> guessing it AND (horrors) have written it down.

As you set a root password on at least one machine a year ago, can you
just check that you now have a root password on all your machines,
before we have threads like this for each machine, and Greg gets hoarse.

Cheers,
David.

[gene heskett]

I have not set a root pw on any other wintel machines, they are all
running buster because the newer python broke LinuxCNC till just
recently. All my arms do have it set. They are all running a late
summer armbian jammy w/xfce4. No video on the early fall versions.