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Getting PC with Ubuntu; change to Debian?
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Patrick Wiseman
Dec 4, 2022, 10:00:05 PM12/4/22
to
Hello, fellow Debian users:
I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to be delivered in January).
So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a Debian derivative)?
I'm very familiar and comfortable with Debian (was happy with 'testing' for a long time, but have lately reverted to 'stable'). And, although I'm a rare participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need to go elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
Thoughts will be welcome.
Patrick
Lee
Dec 5, 2022, 7:00:06 AM12/5/22
to
On 12/4/22, Patrick Wiseman wrote:
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for
> ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old
> ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to
> be delivered in January).
>
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would
> it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
"happy" is a personal judgement, so I'll just go with mine - I like
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for
> ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old
> ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to
> be delivered in January).
>
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would
> it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
Debian's philosophy & I don't like Ubuntu's
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/02/ubuntu-data-collection-opt-out
Since few (if any) users would choose to opt-in to share this sort
of data, Canonical is making participation in the scheme entirely
opt-out.
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/11/01/ubuntu-search-amazon-privacy/
... users can choose not to search Amazon if they want, while future
releases will make it easier to opt-out of searching across third
party services
I'd rather opt-out of using anything from a company that does opt-out
data collection.
... and yeah.. I still use firefox, so that's clearly a preference
instead of a hard rule.
And there's been talk about a Canonical IPO for ages - eg
https://www.datamation.com/open-source/what-are-the-chances-for-an-ubuntu-ipo/
from 2015
and now
https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/21/canonical-now-hopes-to-ipo-in-2023/
My assumption is that they're going to have to do more to generate
income and I'd rather read about how they've monetized their users
than find out first-hand.
Regards,
Lee
Linux-Fan
Dec 5, 2022, 10:00:07 AM12/5/22
to
Patrick Wiseman writes:
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember exactly
> when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for ages too. I
> finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old ThinkPad), so
> I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to be delivered in
> January).
>
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would it
> be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
What is a side-grade in this context? I'd strongly advise against trying to
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember exactly
> when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for ages too. I
> finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old ThinkPad), so
> I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to be delivered in
> January).
>
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would it
> be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
replace the APT sources with Debian's and then trying to switch with an
`apt-get dist-upgrade`. Instead, I'd suggest the following course of action:
* Create an image backup of the installed Ubuntu such that it is restorable
in case of warranty or hardware compatibility issues that may surface
later. If you do this from a Debian Live system you can also get a first
impression about how well Debian runs on the new hardware.
* Install Debian stable replacing the existing Ubuntu.
If it works fine, stop there. If not, try backports or even Testing to
see if it is an issue regarding hardware being too new :)
* If all fails, the image allows reverting to Ubuntu easily enough.
> I'm very familiar and comfortable with Debian (was happy with 'testing' for a
> long time, but have lately reverted to 'stable'). And, although I'm a rare
> participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need to go
> elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
Ubuntu is a derivative and many things feel similar, but for an experienced
Debian user there are tons of minor obstacles that you encounter if you want
to do certain things on Ubuntu. Differences in Network Interfaces
configuration come to mind. Also, Ubuntu likes to distribute certain
applications as “snap” which is replacing traditional Ubuntu packages for
e.g. Firefox. More differences exist of course but these are my top two :)
HTH
Linux-Fan
öö
[...]
Bret Busby
Dec 5, 2022, 10:30:09 AM12/5/22
to
On 05/12/2022 22:59, Linux-Fan wrote:
> Patrick Wiseman writes:
>
>> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>>
>> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
>> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops
>> for ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least
>> 10-year old ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu
>> pre-installed (to be delivered in January).
>>
>> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy
>> would it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is,
>> after all, a Debian derivative)?
>
> What is a side-grade in this context? I'd strongly advise against trying
> to replace the APT sources with Debian's and then trying to switch with an
> `apt-get dist-upgrade`. Instead, I'd suggest the following course of
> action:
>
> * Create an image backup of the installed Ubuntu such that it is restorable
> in case of warranty or hardware compatibility issues that may surface
> later. If you do this from a Debian Live system you can also get a first
> impression about how well Debian runs on the new hardware.
>
> * Install Debian stable replacing the existing Ubuntu.
> If it works fine, stop there. If not, try backports or even Testing to
> see if it is an issue regarding hardware being too new :)
>
> * If all fails, the image allows reverting to Ubuntu easily enough.
>
Why not simply, in that context, install Debian as a dual boot option,
> Patrick Wiseman writes:
>
>> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>>
>> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
>> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops
>> for ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least
>> 10-year old ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu
>> pre-installed (to be delivered in January).
>>
>> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy
>> would it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is,
>> after all, a Debian derivative)?
>
> What is a side-grade in this context? I'd strongly advise against trying
> to replace the APT sources with Debian's and then trying to switch with an
> `apt-get dist-upgrade`. Instead, I'd suggest the following course of
> action:
>
> * Create an image backup of the installed Ubuntu such that it is restorable
> in case of warranty or hardware compatibility issues that may surface
> later. If you do this from a Debian Live system you can also get a first
> impression about how well Debian runs on the new hardware.
>
> * Install Debian stable replacing the existing Ubuntu.
> If it works fine, stop there. If not, try backports or even Testing to
> see if it is an issue regarding hardware being too new :)
>
> * If all fails, the image allows reverting to Ubuntu easily enough.
>
so that the bootloader, on system boot, offers the user the options of
which of the two OS's to boot?
..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............
Andrew M.A. Cater
Dec 5, 2022, 4:40:05 PM12/5/22
to
On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:51:49PM -0500, Patrick Wiseman wrote:
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for
> ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old
> ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to
> be delivered in January).
>
If you know which chipsets are in it, either should work.
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for
> ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old
> ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to
> be delivered in January).
>
I'd hope the Ubuntu supplied was the latest LTS - so 22.04.
If it isn't, and you'd have to upgrade from 20.04, then you lose nothing
by installing Debian right away, I think.
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would
> it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
>
It's a choice but Ubuntu and Debian have diverged - most of what
you know from Debian will still apply but there are small differences.
> I'm very familiar and comfortable with Debian (was happy with 'testing' for
> a long time, but have lately reverted to 'stable'). And, although I'm a
> rare participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need
> to go elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
>
question of whether you want some packages as snaps from Ubuntu.
> Thoughts will be welcome.
>
> Patrick
Andy Cater
Jeffrey Walton
Dec 5, 2022, 5:10:05 PM12/5/22
to
On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 9:52 PM Patrick Wiseman <pwis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ... And, although I'm a rare participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need to go elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
Ubuntu-users (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users)
is a fairly active list. You will see some of us there. There's a lot
of overlap with Debian-users since Ubuntu is derived from Debian.
Jeff
>
> ... And, although I'm a rare participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need to go elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
Ubuntu-users (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users)
is a fairly active list. You will see some of us there. There's a lot
of overlap with Debian-users since Ubuntu is derived from Debian.
Jeff
Timothy M Butterworth
Dec 5, 2022, 7:50:06 PM12/5/22
to
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 4:32 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amac...@einval.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:51:49PM -0500, Patrick Wiseman wrote:
> Hello, fellow Debian users:
>
> I've had Debian on my computers for a very long time (can't remember
> exactly when but early 2000's for sure); and I've had Lenovo laptops for
> ages too. I finally need to replace my main laptop (an at least 10-year old
> ThinkPad), so I've bought an X1 from Lenovo, with Ubuntu pre-installed (to
> be delivered in January).
>
If you know which chipsets are in it, either should work.
I'd hope the Ubuntu supplied was the latest LTS - so 22.04.
According to: https://ubuntu.com/certified/202204-30215
This system was tested with 20.04 LTS, running the 5.14.0-1033-oem kernel.
If you got the X1 Carbon Gen 10 then you will likely need to install Debian Testing as Debian 11 only has the 5.10 Kernel version.
If it isn't, and you'd have to upgrade from 20.04, then you lose nothing
by installing Debian right away, I think.
> So, a question. Should I side-grade to Debian (and, if so, how easy would
> it be to do that?)? Or will I be happy with Ubuntu (which is, after all, a
> Debian derivative)?
>
I think I agree with others who suggest dual booting at minimum.
It's a choice but Ubuntu and Debian have diverged - most of what
you know from Debian will still apply but there are small differences.
> I'm very familiar and comfortable with Debian (was happy with 'testing' for
> a long time, but have lately reverted to 'stable'). And, although I'm a
> rare participant on this list, I enjoy the lurk and would presumably need
> to go elsewhere if I had questions about my Ubuntu experience.
>
Ubuntu tends to live in forums, I think. There's also the whole vexed
question of whether you want some packages as snaps from Ubuntu.
> Thoughts will be welcome.
>
> Patrick
With every good wish, as ever,
Andy Cater
Greg Wooledge
Dec 5, 2022, 9:30:05 PM12/5/22
to
On Mon, Dec 05, 2022 at 07:45:52PM -0500, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> According to: https://ubuntu.com/certified/202204-30215
>
> This system was tested with 20.04 LTS, running the 5.14.0-1033-oem kernel.
>
> If you got the X1 Carbon Gen 10 then you will likely need to install
> Debian Testing as Debian 11 only has the 5.10 Kernel version.
One could try the bullseye-backports kernel(s) first, if the kernel is
> According to: https://ubuntu.com/certified/202204-30215
>
> This system was tested with 20.04 LTS, running the 5.14.0-1033-oem kernel.
>
> If you got the X1 Carbon Gen 10 then you will likely need to install
> Debian Testing as Debian 11 only has the 5.10 Kernel version.
the only piece that needs to be newer.
However, if a newer X server, Mesa or whatever else is also needed, then
it might be worth trying to run testing.
Anssi Saari
Dec 6, 2022, 5:40:06 AM12/6/22
to
Greg Wooledge <gr...@wooledge.org> writes:
> However, if a newer X server, Mesa or whatever else is also needed, then
> it might be worth trying to run testing.
Indeed. I've run into trouble with backports kernels since apparently
> However, if a newer X server, Mesa or whatever else is also needed, then
> it might be worth trying to run testing.
the kernel team doesn't give a damn about what other packages break with
an updated kernel in the backports. Still, it's not too hard to just
config Grub to boot 5.18 or 5.19 instead of the 6.0 that landed in
backports recently.
Either way, the security situation isn't great. Testing has no security
updates and backports seems to have very little.
Patrick Wiseman
Mar 2, 2023, 3:40:06 PM3/2/23
to
Hello again:
I'm just getting around to firing up my new laptop (Lenovo X1 Carbon Gen 10), which came with Ubuntu installed. (By the way, I appreciate all of the feedback I got.) Although Ubuntu is a Debian-derivative, I didn't much care for the feel of it. This is entirely subjective, I realize, but it felt as if it wanted to get in the way of my going "under the hood", something which I've been doing with my computers for decades! So I resolved to return to Debian.
After making a recovery USB stick (which I confirmed worked before doing anything else), I tried to boot from a Debian 11 live USB. It dropped me immediately to a grub prompt! As comfortable as I am with Debian, that caused me some discomfort!
So I decided to try a Debian 12 net install, which worked flawlessly and has given me a nice clean Xfce desktop. I haven't put it through any serious paces yet, but I'm back on familiar territory.
Cheers
Patrick
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