Re: OT: Upgrade Bullseye to Bookworm, and getting of rid of systemd?

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 02:07:30PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I posted this to the debian-init-diversity, but it's a low traffic list and
> I am posting here just in case, apologising for the possible off topic.

(we don't appreciate top posting around here)

> -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
> Betreff: Upgrade Bullseye to Bookworm, and getting of rid of systemd?
> Datum: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:04:09 +0100
> Von: Ottavio Caruso
> An: debian-init-diversity@
>
> Is it at least theoretically possible to upgrade (as opposite to
> install from scratch and/or converting Debian to Devuan) stock Debian
> Bullseye to Bookworm and getting rid of systemd?

I just did a fresh bookworm install. Replacing systemd by sysvinit
was pretty much straightforward:

apt-get --purge install -y sysvinit-core
apt-get --purge autoremove

(I also added some "dbus-" and others to the first apt-get). Note that
some desktop environments might dislike that move.

Cheers
--
t

[Reco]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 10:28:42AM +0000, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

> > don't appreciate top posting around here)
>

> You've managed to be pedantic and patronising yet wrong. When the
> message is forwarded ("Weitergeleitet", you should know this, since
> you use a *.de domain), you have no other choice than to top post
> because the forwarded message is not indented.

Before the message is forwarded, you actually have a choice whenever to
use dumb "inline forward style" (which you did) or proper
rfc822-compliant attachment (which your MUA should support).
In the latter case you're free to express yourself using top-posting,
bottom-posting or interleaved posting (which is preferred here) or even
cat-pictures posting.

Of course, proper forwarding requires using a real MUA. You could
consider start using one.

PS Using real OS cannot not hurt you too, you know.

Reco

[Nicolas George]

Ottavio Caruso (12023-06-22):

> You've managed to be pedantic and patronising yet wrong.

You expect help with that attitude?

Not from me at least. Goodbye.

--
Nicolas George

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 01:09:28PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> You have never heard of user agent spoofing have you?

Sounds like yet another reason to discontinue communications with
someone who has already raised many other red flags.

[Reco]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 01:09:28PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

> Thunderbird is a real MUA.

Consider using it properly then, because currently you're not.
Read a user guide or something.

> > PS Using real OS cannot not hurt you too, you know.
>

> You have never heard of user agent spoofing have you?

I did. So did Spamassasin.
But most importantly - you just had to prove that you're using real OS,
*and* you did just because I've asked you nicely.

See - my approach works, yours - not so much :)

Reco

[David Christensen]

On 6/22/23 03:28, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Am 21/06/2023 um 15:46 schrieb to...@tuxteam.de:

>> ... top posting ...

> ... When the message is forwarded ("Weitergeleitet", ... you have no

> other choice than to top post because the forwarded message is not

> indented. It would make no sense to bottom post because there would
> be no way to tell the comment apart from the post. ...


I use Thunderbird. When I want to start a new thread based upon an
existing thread and keep prior content, I click "Reply", copy the
content to the clipboard, create a new message, paste, and choose Edit
-> Rewrap. This produces a new thread with proper indentation of prior
content. Perhaps your mail client has a similar capability.


HTH,

David

[Manphiz]

Honest question regarding forwarding and top posting: while I totally
get that bottom posting style works naturally in a conversation thread,
for a forwarded email the situation is slightly different: it may not be
obvious why the recipient is getting a mail starting with a (potentially
long) quoted message. IMHO in such case top posting with an explanation
on why the sender is forwarding the mail kind of makes sense.

Regarding forwarding in MUA, old school MUAs (like gnus, mu4e) provides
a quote automatically and put the cursor below; however in Thunderbird
it doesn't quote the forwarded message but provide a separate line, and
even if I set posting style to be below original message, it will post
the cursor above the forwarded message anyway, which makes me feel that
this may be a sensible way to handle forwarded message after all.

Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like
to hear more opinions on this.

--
Manphiz

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 04:24:47PM -0700, Manphiz wrote:
> Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like
> to hear more opinions on this.

The complaint about a top-posted forwarded message just because it
had a contextual hint at the top, seemed excessive to me. I would
have done the same as the OP without thinking anything of it.

Cheers,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 10:06:04AM +0000, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> I though it would have been easier to read if I had forwarded it.
> In hindsight, I could have just copied it over.

It seemed fine the way it was. The only reason why I didn't answer
is that I don't know anything about removing systemd!

[Nicolas George]

Andy Smith (12023-06-23):

> It seemed fine the way it was. The only reason why I didn't answer
> is that I don't know anything about removing systemd!

Me I know just a little about it, enough to know that discussion with
people who want to remove it but are not already capable of doing it by
themselves is a waste of time.

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

[zithro]

On 23 Jun 2023 16:41, mick.crane wrote:

> It's a subjective thing.
> It is what it is but I do feel warmth towards those try to make it work
> without systemd.
> it's not particularly logical.
> mick

Yes, init freedom is subjective, it's like using Firefox or Chrome.
It's not a matter of logic ; )

I have some Debians with sysvinit, some with systemd, both work.
Switching from systemd to sysv following the Debian wiki page was
painless, although I mostly did it on "small hosts", with not much
packages installed.

Maybe installs with many packages are harder to manage ?
Because you have to be careful during package management, some commands
would propose to remove sysv and install systemd instead !
I guess not all packages are "sysv aware" (or rather non-systemd aware).
I suggest non-systemd init users (sysv, rc,...) to use --dry-run and
--no-install-recommends during package management, it can help.

But for the OP, who iirc asked if he should switch to sysv -before- or
-after- the bookworm update, I have no idea.
I updated sysv- and systemd-based Debians from bullseye to bookworm
without problems, but didn't try the switch since, from a bookworm host.
YMMV !

[Fred]

Or you could try Devuan which is Debian without systemd.

[zithro]

On 23 Jun 2023 17:56, Fred wrote:
> Or you could try Devuan which is Debian without systemd.

I did, when I didn't know Debian still had sysv.
But since you can do it on Debian directly, I don't see the point now.
Maybe more polished packages, ie. no surprises like "if you install this
package, I'll remove sysv" ?
I admit I didn't use Devuan a lot, so can't really compare.