Thunderbird vs Claws Mail

[Peter Ehlert]

I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI
has been slowly been changed.
lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way.
Minor success.

also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy
backups.

In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters
and rearrange my copious folders.

Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail?
the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I
know little of the history and stability.

secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters?

thanks in advance.

[Marco]

Am 15.08.2023 um 09:43:57 Uhr schrieb Peter Ehlert:

> Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail?
> the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I
> know little of the history and stability.

One way is to use an IMAP server, move the mail to it, then move it to
a local mailbox again.
Maybe using Maildir is also possible.

> secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters?

Claws Mail supports filtering for Mail and Usenet.

[Joe]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 09:43:57 -0700
Peter Ehlert <pe...@sdi-baja.com> wrote:

> I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI
> has been slowly been changed.
> lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My
> Way. Minor success.
>
> also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy
> backups.
>
> In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few
> filters and rearrange my copious folders.
>
> Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail?

I did that a few years ago. As you say, TB works, but it's so slow..

> the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I
> know little of the history and stability.

It has bugs, but so does TB/anything. It's origins are slightly older
than TB, and Claws was forked from Sylpheed (which still exists and
might be worth a look) around the time TB began. I've had no more than
minor stability problems, and I'm mostly running sid. I also use it on
Windows, on the odd occasions I have to use that.

>
> secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters?
>

No. I use two heavily-polluted newsgroups, and have a number of filters
to deal with the problem, plus a few more for the more commons spam
emails.

It depends... it's a mail/newsreader, and that's about it. TB has
various extra bells and whistles, such as the calendar. Claws does have
quite a number of plug-ins, almost none of which I use, but they are
aimed at email processing, such as hooks to spamassassin and clamd.

I don't know how Claws performs on a single computer, I have an IMAP
server which stores the mail, and Claws opens and is ready for use on a
workstation in about a second. I see no reason why it should be any
slower with locally-stored mail, though Internet access is probably
a bit slower than local network access.

--
Joe

[Bret Busby]

I use both email applications, separately for different email accounts.

I use claws mail for a minor email account, in which I may get one or
two (or, if spammed, more) messages, each month.

I use Thunderbird for my primary email account, which can get many (a
hundred, or, hundreds, depending on what is happening)messages, each day.

My use of Thunderbird, is basically as a webmail kind of application,
over which, I have more control, than over something like horde or
roundcube (that has been imposed to replace horde). At the end of each
month (or, more frequently, depending on the number of messages left
after preliminary sifting out of chaff), I download my incoming email,
using the most powerful email application that I have encountered,
alpine, that was evolved from pine. All my download email filtering, is
done using alpine, with hundreds of filters, each with up to a couple of
hundred different field values. I have several hundred or more, folders,
for storing my downloaded messages, with some folders being archived on
a monthly basis, depending on the usual volume of messages in each
folder. My mail folder (the mail messages folder for alpine), is
somewhere around 20GB, and contains messages up to about 20 years old.

Claws mail has an official users mailing list, which, I believe, is
hosted and administered by the application developer, who also answers
queries on the list.

Thunderbird email has no official users mailing list, but has two
unofficial users mailing lists, hosted on groups.io, with a different
priority for each mailing list, and, each of those lists, is run by
volunteers, with no support on those lists, from Thunderbird or its
developers. Thunderbird developers, and, the Thunderbird organisation,
have yet to adapt to using email (it is a bit like the oxymoron
"military intelligence", as referenced by the character played by Danny
de Vito in the movie of that name - Thunderbird developers and the
Thunderbird organisation, have so little regard for email, that they do
not provide official users mailing lists, for announcements, providing
support, etc - some of the operating systems, on which email
applications run, such as Debian, and Ubuntu, are far more adept at
using email - the Thunderbird organisation, has yet to come to terms
with the use of email).

Oh, and, alpine has an official mailing list, involving the developer of
alpine, who also provides answers to queries (and, considers development
suggestions) made on that list.

So, the Thunderbird organisation is a bit backward...

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

[Russell L. Harris]

Consider evolution.

[Bret Busby]

On 16/8/23 03:48, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> Consider evolution.

I think evolution is one of the gnome applications, where the gnomes
shut down all of the users' mailing lists - thence, instability.

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/08/2023 23:43, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI
> has been slowly been changed.

I think, Thunderbird will be upgraded to version 115 soon in Debian
stable. Major changes of default UI have been announced. I have not
tried it, so I can not say it is really more convenient or not. It is
possible to switch to current UI style, but I am unsure if any bugs will
be fixed. Just a warning for those who are sensitive to changes of UI.
From my point of view traditional UI of Thunderbird may be improved,
but I am unsure that particular issues are addressed in new UI.

[Peter Ehlert]

I find the lack of a mailing list rather ironic.

[Peter Ehlert]

On 8/15/23 19:20, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 15/08/2023 23:43, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>> I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI
>> has been slowly been changed.
>
> I think, Thunderbird will be upgraded to version 115 soon in Debian
> stable. Major changes of default UI have been announced.

We got 115 in Sid a couple days ago.

"lipstick on a pig" comes to mind

> I have not tried it, so I can not say it is really more convenient or
> not. It is possible to switch to current UI style, but I am unsure if
> any bugs will be fixed.

there was a Zoom meeting hosted by the Thunderbird guys... I sat in and
asked a couple questions... They were very clear that 115 is cosmetic
only and does not address anything else.
They did acknowledge the problem with the massive .msf file problem.
they had no idea if/when that may be corrected

[Bret Busby]

On 19/8/23 21:49, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>

<snip>

>>
>> Claws mail has an official users mailing list, which, I believe, is
>> hosted and administered by the application developer, who also answers
>> queries on the list.
>>
>> Thunderbird email has no official users mailing list, but has two
>> unofficial users mailing lists, hosted on groups.io, with a different
>> priority for each mailing list, and, each of those lists, is run by
>> volunteers, with no support on those lists, from Thunderbird or its
>> developers.
>
>> Thunderbird developers, and, the Thunderbird organisation, have yet to
>> adapt to using email (it is a bit like the oxymoron "military
>> intelligence", as referenced by the character played by Danny de Vito
>> in the movie of that name - Thunderbird developers and the Thunderbird
>> organisation, have so little regard for email, that they do not
>> provide official users mailing lists, for announcements, providing
>> support, etc - some of the operating systems, on which email
>> applications run, such as Debian, and Ubuntu, are far more adept at
>> using email - the Thunderbird organisation, has yet to come to terms
>> with the use of email).
> I find the lack of a mailing list rather ironic.
>>

I think that is rather a euphemistic way of putting it...

:)

It is a bit like
"What operating system do you use at home?"
MS Windows developers: "Linux, of course. Windows? You've got to be joking!"

[Frank Lanitz]

Hi,

On 15.08.23 21:48, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> Consider evolution.

Tried it. Used >6GB RAM.

.f

[Peter Ehlert]

thread back from the dead:
first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions

I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too.
Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice.

My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me,
Kudos to webmasters dot com

IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know
who to trust

I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue.

Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages
on the server?

[peter ehlert]

damn! I forgot... not able to receive on my POP mail accounts!
now using the hateful Gmail...
maybe that's why Thunderbird can't use a mailing list, they don't trust
their own email app. Eff Them!

[Alex]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800
Peter Ehlert <pb...@sdi-baja.com> wrote:

> Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave
> messages on the server?

That's why IMAP exists to begin with. IMAP was made to make it possible
for multiple clients to manage the same mailbox[1].

IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not
delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via
right-click -> delete.


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAP
--
Current PGP KeyID: 0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF

https://blueselene.com/pgp-archive/0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF/key.pub

[Joe]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800
Peter Ehlert <pb...@sdi-baja.com> wrote:

> thread back from the dead:
> first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions
>
> I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too.
> Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will
> suffice.
>
> My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help
> me, Kudos to webmasters dot com
>
> IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't
> know who to trust
>
> I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue.
>
> Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave
> messages on the server?

Yes, IMAP is server-oriented, POP3 is single-client oriented. It's not
unusual for me to have my IMAP account open in more than one client
simultaneously.

If you're having problems, it may be to do with the email policy in use
at the server, mostly password authentication.

Standard IMAP port is 143, encrypted is 993 though often 143 will also
accept encryption.

If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server
using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may
help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not
return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is
to assist security.

$ telnet myserver 143
Trying 192.168.xx.yy
Connected to myserver.
Escape character is '^]'.
* OK [CAPABILITY IMAP4rev1 LITERAL+ SASL-IR LOGIN-REFERRALS ID ENABLE
IDLE STARTTLS AUTH=PLAIN] Dovecot ready.

Any mention of SSL, TLS or AUTH is likely to be important.

>
> On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the
> > GUI has been slowly been changed.
> > lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My
> > Way. Minor success.
> >
> > also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and
> > easy backups.
> >
> > In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few
> > filters and rearrange my copious folders.
> >
> > Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail?
> > the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but
> > I know little of the history and stability.

It goes back a couple of decades, and was originally a fork of
Sylpheed, which also still exists.

I've used it for at least five years, when I started to find TB too
bloated and slow. I never used its calendar, I have an SQL-based
calendar.

Claws gets occasional bugs, irritating rather than serious e.g.
currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is not
always what I want, and is not normal behaviour. IMAP does folders,
something that POP3 clients simulate but which really exist on an IMAP
server, and I often want to drag an email to a folder while leaving it
marked unread. It will get fixed.

> >
> > secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters?

No, I'm using quite a lot of filters on two Usenet groups in mine.

Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you.
It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need
to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of
useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail.

--
Joe

[Charles Curley]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 +0000
Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:

> Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you.
> It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need
> to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of
> useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail.

Instead of the webmail client:

To the right of the message body, or just above it, you can see the
various parts of a MIME message. Right click (mouse 3, typically) on
the entry for the HTML part of the email. Click on "display as text".
That usually displays the link correctly.

--
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

[jeremy ardley]

On 19/11/23 01:59, Alex wrote:
> IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not
> delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via
> right-click -> delete.

A client can also alter messages retained on a server or event insert
new messages. This is interesting in computer forensics.

It means that if an email is on a server e.g. hotmail or gmail, it has
no probative value unless supported by other evidence such as server
records, digital signatures,  or corroborating evidence on other systems.

In my professional cyber-forensic practice I have tested just how much
you can alter in an email on a server. The answer is essentially
everything. All headers, dates, content etc.

Server records of email receipt are usually transient so after a few
months they can no longer be used as corroboration.

[jeremy ardley]

Incidentally, I am using gmail for this list. They have made a recent(?)
change so that an email that is sent to the debian list automatically
gets a 'copy' in the inbox. In fact it's just a view of the sent email.

They then drop any copy received from the list, probably based on
matching the email ID field (?)

From a forensic perspective, gmail only ever stores one copy of an
email based on its email ID. The altering emails on the server trick
involves creating a modified copy with a different ID field, deleting
the original email and so removing its ID from gmail, then altering the
ID of the copy to the original ID.

[Tim Woodall]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Joe wrote:

> If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server
> using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may
> help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not
> return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is
> to assist security.
>

I'd assume you need to use something like openssl s_client rather than
telnet to port 993.

[David Wright]

Sure, but you still need to know what to type (assuming that's what
you do), because it just sits there rather than blurting it all out:

$ openssl s_client -starttls imap -crlf -connect lionunicorn.co.uk:993
CONNECTED(00000003)

and nothing happens until:

^C
130 $

OTOH, openssl to port 143 is a bit more informative.

Cheers,
David.

[Joe]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:31:31 +0000
Brad Rogers <br...@fineby.me.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 +0000
> Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:
>

> Hello Joe,

>
> >currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is
> >not
>

> Can be altered in Prefs.
> Display; Summaries Message list tab "Mark message as read" section.
>

Thank you. I never told it to do that.

--
Joe

[Joe]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 14:26:59 -0700
Charles Curley <charle...@charlescurley.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 +0000
> Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:
>
> > Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for
> > you. It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I
> > really need to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried
> > in 100K of useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail.
>
> Instead of the webmail client:
>
> To the right of the message body, or just above it, you can see the
> various parts of a MIME message. Right click (mouse 3, typically) on
> the entry for the HTML part of the email. Click on "display as text".
> That usually displays the link correctly.
>

OK, I'll try that. I always knew HTML display as a menu item, which is
not there now. I assumed I didn't add the HTML plugin when I last
reinstalled, to a new (refurbished) computer, about two years ago. It
shows how often I need it.

--
Joe

[peter ehlert]

pardon the top posting.
I made a minor change to the security settings that Webmasters omitted
(or said Not to do) in their documentation for the security upgrades on
their servers, and it's working again. a couple thousand messages to
clean and sort, but my will filters do 97% of that.
I will message their support and help them correct their error.
thanks for listening.
Peter Ehlert

[Peter Ehlert]

On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote:

> thread back from the dead:
> first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions
>
> I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too.
> Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will
> suffice.
>
> My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help
> me, Kudos to webmasters dot com
>

the Kudos was premature. they provided unclear/wrong instructions.
I said screw it and did "the wrong thing" and expected to loose the
copious pent-up messages,  but it Did Work. I'm good.

> IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know
> who to trust
>
> I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue.
>
> Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages
> on the server?

My question was incomplete.  I should have added that I must have local
copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge.
--- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my
only choice. < ---
thanks!

>
> On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI
>> has been slowly been changed.
>> lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My
>> Way. Minor success.

Tbird still sucks in several ways. However the many alternatives suck
worse in my opinion. Old dogs and all of that.

[Joe]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:25:34 +0000
Brad Rogers <br...@fineby.me.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 11:57:03 +0000

> Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Joe,
>

> I think (but don't quote me) it's the default in CM. And with the
> large number of settings, it's easy to miss it.
>
> Took me a while to find the right section before responding to to your
> post:
> I *know* it's there somewhere...... :-l
>

I've been using Claws for some years without it happening. It suddenly
started, certainly without me asking for it, which is why I thought it
was a bug in an upgrade.

Thanks again.

--
Joe

[Tixy]

On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 07:58 -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave
> > messages
> > on the server?
> My question was incomplete.  I should have added that I must have
> local
> copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge.
> --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my
> only choice. < ---

I don't see why you need POP to filter email. Your email client will
almost certainly let you create filters to process and delete emails.
E.g. I use IMAP with Evolution mail client and have various filters for
spam and kill files. Amongst the many filter options is the ability to
pipe new messages to an external program and the perform actions on the
result. That's how I implement killfiles for this email list, I have a
bash script to match email headers against a kill list and then if my
script returns 'true' I have evolution set to delete them.

--
Tixy

[Mike McClain]

Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from
gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all
messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server.
I saw a message making that point several years ago, probably here,
and seldom log into gmail but get all messages sent to my gmail
accounts by others.

A second item that's slightly off topic, I've had no luck setting
up claws-mail to send out through frontier.net and if anyone knows how
to do that I'd appreciate the claws-mail setup for it.

Thanks,
Mike
--
Telling pious lies to trusting children is a form of abuse,
plain and simple. - Daniel Dennett, 2010-01-12

[Tixy]

On Mon, 2023-11-20 at 10:15 -0600, Mike McClain wrote:
> Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from
> gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all
> messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server.
> I saw a message making that point several years ago,

I'm sure I've mentioned that here before. I did it in my last job as my
employer used Google for mail, so I just forwarded everything to an
email account on my email server at home.

--
Tixy

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Monday 20 November 2023 11:15:56 am Mike McClain wrote:
> Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from
> gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all
> messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server.

That's exactly what I'm doing here...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

[David Wright]

On Sat 18 Nov 2023 at 08:58:41 (-0800), Peter Ehlert wrote:
> thread back from the dead:
> first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions
>
> I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too.
> Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice.
>
> My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help
> me, Kudos to webmasters dot com
>
> IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know
> who to trust
>
> I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue.
>
> Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages
> on the server?

Well, sorting by Date, mutt lists your post at position:

33858 L 231118 Peter Ehlert (1.2K) Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail

out of a total of 33910 on the server (in the UK). The posts are also
all on this machine here:

~/.cache/mutt/imaps:A...@DEF.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ ls -1 | wc -l
35700
~/.cache/mutt/imaps:A...@DEF.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ du -sh
630M .
~/.cache/mutt/imaps:A...@DEF.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$

(Some posts in my cache are orphaned, for straightforward reasons
I won't bother to explain here.)

Cheers,
David.