Re: One user system.

[john doe]

On 2/1/2022 7:11 PM, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hi,
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Root states,
>
> "At installation time, you are asked whether you want to use the root account or not.
> ...
> If not, no root account is enabled and the password of the first user created will be used for administration tasks."
>
> Are instructions to configure that post installation available online?
>
> Tips?
>

If my understanding is correct, you will need to use 'sudo'.

--
John Doe

[pe...@easthope.ca]

Hi,

https://wiki.debian.org/Root states,

"At installation time, you are asked whether you want to use the root account or not.
...
If not, no root account is enabled and the password of the first user created will be used for administration tasks."

Are instructions to configure that post installation available online?

Tips?

Thanks, ... P.




--
mobile: +1 778 951 5147
VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
48.7693 N 123.3053 W

[Bijan Soleymani]

On 2022-02-01 13:29, john doe wrote:
> If my understanding is correct, you will need to use 'sudo'.
>

Yes.

sudo passwd

Should allow you so set a password for root.

It will ask for your password first (if you haven't run sudo recently),
and then new password for root and confirmation of that password.

Bijan

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Tue, Feb 01, 2022 at 10:11:25AM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hi,
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Root states,
>
> "At installation time, you are asked whether you want to use the root account or not.
> ...
> If not, no root account is enabled and the password of the first user created will be used for administration tasks."

This is an unfortunate way of expressing it. The root user exists, of
course. It just has no password, so login as root is not possible.

As Bijan noted in this thread, you only have to issue `passwd' as root
to "fix" that, i.e. `sudo passwd' will do.

Cheers
--
t

[pe...@easthope.ca]

From: john doe <johndo...@mail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:29:02 +0100

> If my understanding is correct, you will need to use 'sudo'.

Thanks. Still a multi-user system.

Whereas puppy linux has one user, root.

To make debian one-user I think of

mkdir /home/root ; cp -r /root/* /home/root ; rm -r /root ; ln -s /home/root /root
cp <anythingIwantFrom/home/me> /home/root

Then proceed as root rather than me.

Googling "linux one account" returned https://login.ubuntu.com/ and
other pages not relevant to the concept. Odd that the topic doesn't
get more attention.

Thx, ... P.

[Bijan Soleymani]

On 2022-02-01 14:47, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> Thanks. Still a multi-user system.
>
> Whereas puppy linux has one user, root.
>
> To make debian one-user I think of

...

>
> Then proceed as root rather than me.

Oh! Is your goal to only have root? I assumed you wanted to login as
root, but didn't configure a password for root at setup.

As far as I know there's no option in the standard install to not create
a user account and only create a root account.

But assuming you have a root password set just remove non-root users:
deluser username

Just keep in mind stuff like ssh isn't configured to let root log in by
default. (Important in case you're doing this remotely and won't be able
to login again, without changing the default settings).

I can't think of a case where you'd want to remove all non root users
though...

Bijan

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Hi,

That seems like a very bad idea for security to encourage _everything_ to
be done as root and some desktop environments would complain

The Ubuntu and others model of creating one user and giving that user sudo
powers means only one user on the system.

Every Unix system is inherently multi-user/multi role, I think.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

[Brian]

On Tue 01 Feb 2022 at 15:08:44 -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote:

> On 2022-02-01 14:47, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> > Thanks. Still a multi-user system.
> >
> > Whereas puppy linux has one user, root.
> >
> > To make debian one-user I think of
> ...
> >
> > Then proceed as root rather than me.
>
> Oh! Is your goal to only have root? I assumed you wanted to login as root,
> but didn't configure a password for root at setup.
>
> As far as I know there's no option in the standard install to not create a
> user account and only create a root account.

Depends on what you mean by "standard". From user-setup-udeb_1.88_all.udeb.

Template: passwd/make-user
Type: boolean
Default: true
Description: Create a normal user account now?
It's a bad idea to use the root account for normal day-to-day activities,
such as the reading of electronic mail, because even a small mistake can
result in disaster. You should create a normal user account to use for
those day-to-day tasks.

The OP's requirements are very nurky. Whatever he wants can be done from
the installer.

--
Brian.

[Charles Curley]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 15:08:44 -0500
Bijan Soleymani <bi...@psq.com> wrote:

> I can't think of a case where you'd want to remove all non root users
> though...

The only use case I can think of is if you want all the security of
Windows 95.

Don't do this. There are excellent reasons to separate system
administration from day-to-day stuff.

--
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2022 01 Feb 14:09 -0600, Bijan Soleymani wrote:
> On 2022-02-01 14:47, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> > Thanks. Still a multi-user system.
> >
> > Whereas puppy linux has one user, root.
> >
> > To make debian one-user I think of
> ...
> >
> > Then proceed as root rather than me.
>
> Oh! Is your goal to only have root? I assumed you wanted to login as root,
> but didn't configure a password for root at setup.

I must be the odd one out as I interpreted the OP as having set a root
password but now wanting to remove it so as to have just the main user
set to do root's work and that root can no longer log in directly. I
hope the OP can clarify!

- Nate

--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819

[Bijan Soleymani]

On 2022-02-01 20:01, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> I must be the odd one out as I interpreted the OP as having set a root
> password but now wanting to remove it so as to have just the main user
> set to do root's work and that root can no longer log in directly. I
> hope the OP can clarify!

I guess that would be:
sudo passwd -d

to delete the password

or:
sudo passwd -l

to lock the paassword
(this can be undone later with sudo passwd -u)

Bijan

[john doe]

On 2/1/2022 8:47 PM, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: john doe <johndo...@mail.com>
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:29:02 +0100
>> If my understanding is correct, you will need to use 'sudo'.
>
> Thanks. Still a multi-user system.
>

If you do not want the regular user, you can simply lock/disable it.
This way you can use root to your liking (remotely or locally) and
forget about other user(s).

I must say, I concur with others in this thread on not removing a single
non-root user.

--
John Doe

[David Wright]

On Tue 01 Feb 2022 at 11:47:35 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: john doe <johndo...@mail.com>
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:29:02 +0100
> > If my understanding is correct, you will need to use 'sudo'.
>
> Thanks. Still a multi-user system.
>
> Whereas puppy linux has one user, root.

And it's been designed with that in mind. Debian hasn't.

> To make debian one-user I think of
>
> mkdir /home/root ; cp -r /root/* /home/root ; rm -r /root ; ln -s /home/root /root
> cp <anythingIwantFrom/home/me> /home/root

I can't understand this. If you carry out your intention, then
/home becomes just another top-level directory like /media.
You don't need to put /root into it just to make a point. You
can use it for just your data files, and not your dotfiles —
particularly if /home is on a separate partition.

> Then proceed as root rather than me.

You may hit snags. Some programs might refuse to run, or do
strange things because they're written to distinguish between
root and an ordinary user.

But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.

> Googling "linux one account" returned https://login.ubuntu.com/ and
> other pages not relevant to the concept. Odd that the topic doesn't
> get more attention.

Not really — except perhaps on Puppy where it's been seen as
controversial, and hence discussed.

ISTR earlier posts where you've run up against permission problems,
but IMHO just running as perpetual root is not a sensible answer.

Cheers,
David.

[pe...@easthope.ca]

From: john doe <johndo...@mail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:04:28 +0100

> I must say, I concur with others in this thread on not removing a single
> non-root user.

Right oh; I don't aim to remove my original ordinary user account.

> If you do not want the regular user, you can simply lock/disable it.

Or just ignore it unless a requirement surfaces.

[pe...@easthope.ca]

"One-user" is probably the correct grammar.

David,

From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:08:28 -0600
> And it's been designed with that in mind. Debian hasn't.

I wondered whether others had worked out a recipe for single-user. In
fact, yes, there's DebianDog. References 7 and 8 here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-weight_Linux_distribution

> I can't understand this. If you carry out your intention, then
> /home becomes just another top-level directory like /media.
> You don't need to put /root into it just to make a point. You
> can use it for just your data files, and not your dotfiles —
> particularly if /home is on a separate partition.

I don't understand either. We're "at crossed purposes"?

root@joule:/root# df | grep sd
/dev/sda2 7159288 6635136 140768 98% /
/dev/sda4 131124764 12951820 111512132 11% /home
/dev/sdb1 3658244 2026200 1446196 59% /home/root/MY

Note that / is 98% full whereas /home is 11% full. The intention in
moving the root home directory from / to /home is just to have space
for my data.

Yes, 98% needs attention.

Rather than link /root to /home/root probably better to edit
/etc/passwd to have root homed at /home/root. Can try that.

> You may hit snags. Some programs might refuse to run, or do
> strange things because they're written to distinguish between
> root and an ordinary user.

Used it since yesterday with no significant problem.

> But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.

I view this as an experiment. If I destroy the system, I reinstall.
The debian installer is moderately easy to use. =8~)

Also I have the spare machine ready to go as described in the smartd
thread.

Did you use DOS decades ago? Have you clobbered a DOS system?

If interested, try DebianDog or Puppy or my simpistic approach.

> Not really — except perhaps on Puppy where it's been seen as
> controversial, and hence discussed.

Discussion here. https://wikka.puppylinux.com/spot
Note priviledge and and security aspects.

> ISTR earlier posts where you've run up against permission problems, ...

Not my motivation. This computer isn't a mainframe system with
multiple users. I'm just exploring simplifications.

Thanks for the feedback, ... P.

[pe...@easthope.ca]

From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:08:28 -0600

> But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.

System destruction is exasperating. Lapse in security is another
risk; possibly more serious. My knowledge is meagre and this was
helpful.

The Illusion of Privacy/Security using ANY Web-browser
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=1583

Mitigation of risk.
https://wikka.puppylinux.com/spot

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I should use a product of extensive
development.
http://wikka.puppylinux.com/DebianDog
https://github.com/DebianDog/

Regards, ... P.

[David Wright]

On Fri 04 Feb 2022 at 21:41:24 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:08:28 -0600
> > But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> > revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> > misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.
>
> System destruction is exasperating. Lapse in security is another
> risk; possibly more serious. My knowledge is meagre and this was
> helpful.
>
> The Illusion of Privacy/Security using ANY Web-browser
> https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=1583

I didn't get far down the first page, and certainly not through all 53
posts, before reaching:

"Think a different Operating System provides any greater security?
privacy? because under it you run as a User with limited privileges?
Well, I booted into Linux Mint Ulyana. Iron web-browser required that
I provide a password to run it. But once it was running,
Atttachments>Add gave me access to my mounted hard-drive.. And worse
than under Puppies, Linux Mint Ulyana would automatically mount
partitions which weren't already mounted. :shock:"

There's no explanation of what "password" was given, so any
conclusions are moot. But if the article is supposed to blow a hole
in Puppy's securtiy model, well, so what.

And then I read the fourth post, which seemed to be using umask and
chmod to configure what Debian gives you already.

> Mitigation of risk.
> https://wikka.puppylinux.com/spot

I don't know what "spot" and "fido" are all about, unless to recreate
the conventional concept of Ordinary Users.

> Rather than reinvent the wheel, I should use a product of extensive
> development.
> http://wikka.puppylinux.com/DebianDog
> https://github.com/DebianDog/

That depends on whether you trust the system's developers. My trust
in Debian has been forged through 25 years of use, and by reading
technical reviews over the years by others.

Cheers,
David.

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Vi, 04 feb 22, 10:34:38, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>
> root@joule:/root# df | grep sd
> /dev/sda2 7159288 6635136 140768 98% /
> /dev/sda4 131124764 12951820 111512132 11% /home
> /dev/sdb1 3658244 2026200 1446196 59% /home/root/MY
>
> Note that / is 98% full whereas /home is 11% full. The intention in
> moving the root home directory from / to /home is just to have space
> for my data.

It's unclear what you mean by "data" here, but typically the things that
are expected to reside in a (super)user's home directory are mostly
small, i.e. dotfiles and the likes.

Everything else can just be stored elsewhere, no need to relocate the
home directory itself.

> Yes, 98% needs attention.
>
> Rather than link /root to /home/root probably better to edit
> /etc/passwd to have root homed at /home/root. Can try that.
>
> > You may hit snags. Some programs might refuse to run, or do
> > strange things because they're written to distinguish between
> > root and an ordinary user.
>
> Used it since yesterday with no significant problem.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out some application is explicitly hard
coding '/root' as the home directory for the root user, regardless of
what is specified in /etc/passwd.

> > But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> > revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> > misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.
>
> I view this as an experiment. If I destroy the system, I reinstall.
> The debian installer is moderately easy to use. =8~)
>
> Also I have the spare machine ready to go as described in the smartd
> thread.
>
> Did you use DOS decades ago? Have you clobbered a DOS system?

More than once :)

I've switched to using sudo because it encourages me to use root only
when strictly required.

Many admin tools work fine without root permissions when used only to
retrieve information (e.g. 'apt', 'systemctl') as opposed to do changes
to the system. It might help to add your user to group 'adm'
('journalctl') or add [/usr]/sbin to your $PATH ('zpool', 'zfs').

If something really needs root (e.g. 'dmesg') it's just a simple Ctrl-a
and type 'sudo<space><enter>', especially if sudo is configured to allow
that specific command without providing a password ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

[rhkr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 09, 2022 06:08:16 AM Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> I've switched to using sudo because it encourages me to use root only
> when strictly required.

That's a good idea, but I'll mention what I do -- I may have started before
sudo existed (or, at least, before I knew about it).

I use kde and keep several konsole (terminals) open, at on one, I open it as
root and set the background to be a different color than the non-root konsole
(a shade of yello).

(Once you pick a color for the background (or any of variety of other user
preferences), you can save those so, for example, every time I open a konsole
as root, it gets those preferences.

[Joe]

Just an additional note if you use mc: you can change the colours of the
mc window and save the changes, but when you close mc the previous
config file will overwrite the new one. What you have to do is to save
the config, then rename it from outside mc with mc still running. Close
mc, rename the new config file back to the original name, then it will
be used next time you start mc.

A bit of a faff, which is why I don't change things often. But my
server is console-only, and I found mc to be an excellent file manager
and simple text editor for it. I also have different background colours
depending on whether it is opened with sudo or not.

Yes, it's a dangerous beast as root, but what are you doing on a server
if not admin work (carefully)?

--
Joe

[Andrei POPESCU]

I did use to have a root window constantly open and "Ctrl-a r" is still
opening a 'sudo -i' window in tmux.

The trouble with that is that I would tend to use the root console for
non-root things. Besides, it's annoying to 'cd' in the non-root terminal
in some deep directory structure only to find out you need root
permissions to do what you actually needed to do when you got there.

With sudo I'm incentivized to use non-root as much as possible, even if
only because I'm too lazy to switch terminals or type 4 letters and a
space ;)

[David Wright]

Why not just set these five file permissions to readonly?
.config/mc/{ini,panels.ini} .cache/mc/Tree{,.tmp} .local/share/mc/history
The last might need to be owned by root (for normal users), or
chattr +i if you run mc as root. (I don't.)

> Yes, it's a dangerous beast as root, but what are you doing on a server
> if not admin work (carefully)?

Cheers,
David.

[pe...@easthope.ca]

From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:08:28 -0600

> I can't understand this.

In a freshly installed Debian, /etc/passwd sets the home directory for
root at /root. Here /etc/passwd sets the home directory for root at
/home/root. No problem observed.

> You may hit snags. Some programs might refuse to run, or do
> strange things because they're written to distinguish between
> root and an ordinary user.
>
> But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.

Working routinely for about 93 days and I no longer bother to keep
fingers crossed. If reinstallation becomes necessary, tough luck.
Just another chore.

What I'm doing is similar to using DOS years ago; although DOS
predates experience of most people reading now. If login is used
properly, root shouldn't be more vulnerable than any other account.
You're welcome to probe my system. If you find a vulnerability, a
post will help or amuse more than me.

> ... Puppy ...

Incidentally, OpenBox is here with minimal graphics displayed.
Most programs start from a terminal. Puppy is a nice system but
the graphical interface is more than I want.

> ISTR earlier posts where you've run up against permission problems,
> but IMHO just running as perpetual root is not a sensible answer.

For years my data was on an SD card reformatted to ext3. When
switching to a new SD about a month ago, I decided to leave the
factory installed FAT file system. No problems. The FAT file system
lacks permissions as in ext.

Motivation to leave FAT: authorities claim the factory format is
optimized.

Regards, ... P.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, May 06, 2022 at 09:24:35AM -0700, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> What I'm doing is similar to using DOS years ago; although DOS
> predates experience of most people reading now.

I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers on
this list.

[gene heskett]

> .
I think he might be too Greg. I'm 87, and largely bypassed dos on my way
to linux in the 90's. We've come a long way, and if dos disappeared
yesterday, I'd have bought a 6 pack for a mini-celebration last night.
We're still trying to put up with its lack of features other filesystems
have given us since.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis

[Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE]

yeah, I started with CP/M on Z80
First touch on a "computer" -keyboard was on a WANG 600 series ...

--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

[Nicolas George]

Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE (12022-05-06):

> > I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers
> > on this list.
> yeah, I started with CP/M on Z80

You need to be very old to have used these machines indeed, but probably
not old enough to change the average age of a list with thousands of
subscribers all by yourself. :-Þ

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers on
> this list.

Huh ? ... What ? ... Age ? ... Whom do you call old ?

VIC-20 users don't get old.

Since most of the posters here are of over average age we should immediately
drop the whole concept in order to avoid a severe mathematical paradox.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[Erwan David]

I my head I am still 13, the age when I discovered the C64...

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, May 06, 2022 at 08:24:49PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers on
> > this list.
>
> Huh ? ... What ? ... Age ? ... Whom do you call old ?

I never used the word "old".

> Since most of the posters here are of over average age we should immediately
> drop the whole concept in order to avoid a severe mathematical paradox.

I'm fairly sure that most of the *regular* posters here (the ones who
actually answer questions) are above the average age of Linux users as
a whole. I feel like I'm one of the younger regulars, at merely 52.

For subscribers as a whole including lurkers... well, maybe I'd better
not try to guess. Insufficient data.

And yes, I definitely remember DOS.

[Dennis Wicks]

Thomas Schmitt wrote on 5/6/22 13:24:

> Hi,
>
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers on
>> this list.
>
> Huh ? ... What ? ... Age ? ... Whom do you call old ?
>

I am 83. First desktop was an IBM PC running IBM DOS Version
1, I think. Also saw my first virus on that machine!

Those were not "the good old days"!

Cheers,
Dennis

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 06 May 2022 09:24:35 -0700
pe...@easthope.ca wrote:

> although DOS
> predates experience of most people reading now.

Maybe, maybe not. I got started with a KIM-I: 6502 running at 1 MHz,
just over 1 kilobyte of RAM. Six seven segment displays and a hex
keyboard for data entry. I still have one.

See what you did: you started a nostalgia oneUpManship storm.

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 5/6/22 1:11 PM, Charles Curley wrote:

> Maybe, maybe not. I got started with a KIM-I: 6502 running at 1 MHz,
> just over 1 kilobyte of RAM. Six seven segment displays and a hex
> keyboard for data entry. I still have one.

I remember *reading about* the KIM-I (and the Altair, and a few others)
in electronics magazines; I started with a TRS-80 Model I myself (and
with high school programming classes on an IBM 370/135 at the District
Office, with terminals connected over a pair of multiplexed phone lines
[and a maximum terminal speed of 300 Baud]).

--
JHHL

[John Hasler]

James H. H. Lampert writes:
> I started with a TRS-80 Model I myself (and with high school
> programming classes on an IBM 370/135 at the District Office, with
> terminals connected over a pair of multiplexed phone lines [and a
> maximum terminal speed of 300 Baud]).

Punch cards and an IBM 1620 at university. The first computer I owned I
built using a Z80 SBC demo board. Cassette tape mass storage, modified
Selectric printer, OCLC crt terminal, homebrew OS.
--
John Hasler
jo...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[Charlie Gibbs]

On Fri, 06 May 2022 19:30:01 +0200 gene heskett <ghes...@shentel.net>
wrote:

> On Friday, 6 May 2022 13:11:13 EDT Greg Wooledge wrote:
>

>> On Fri, May 06, 2022 at 09:24:35AM -0700, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>>

>>> What I'm doing is similar to using DOS years ago; although DOS

>>> predates experience of most people reading now.
>>

>> I think you're vastly underestimating the average age of subscribers
>> on this list.
>

> I think he might be too Greg. I'm 87, and largely bypassed
> dos on my way to linux in the 90's. We've come a long way,
> and if dos disappeared yesterday, I'd have bought a 6 pack
> for a mini-celebration last night. We're still trying to
> put up with its lack of features other filesystems have
> given us since.

If Microsoft disappeared in its entirety, I'd buy a case of
champagne and invite my friends over for a _major_ celebration.
I've spent far too much of my career working around their
poor design decisions and outright bugs.

I'm 71, and started my programming career in 1970, five
years before Microsoft existed. The machine at my first
job had a whopping 16K of memory. We were a service
bureau, running things like payroll and accounts
receivable for companies all over town who couldn't
afford a computer of their own (i.e. most of them).

So when someone tells me how many gigabytes of memory
I'd need to do a job, I take it with a _very_ large
grain of salt.

We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the
impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much,
for so long, with so little, we are now qualified
to do anything with nothing.”
-- Konstantin Josef Jireček

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

[황병희]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@surfnaked.ca> writes:

> (... thanks ...)

> If Microsoft disappeared in its entirety, I'd buy a case of
> champagne and invite my friends over for a _major_ celebration.

> ...

That's a great idea!

> I'm 71, and started my programming career in 1970, five
> years before Microsoft existed. The machine at my first
> job had a whopping 16K of memory. We were a service
> bureau, running things like payroll and accounts
> receivable for companies all over town who couldn't
> afford a computer of their own (i.e. most of them).
>
> So when someone tells me how many gigabytes of memory
> I'd need to do a job, I take it with a _very_ large
> grain of salt.
>
> We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the
> impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much,
> for so long, with so little, we are now qualified
> to do anything with nothing.”
> -- Konstantin Josef Jireček
>

Thanks!

Sincerely, Linux fan Byung-Hee

--
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, 7 May 2022 21:41:33 EDT 황병희 wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@surfnaked.ca> writes:
> > (... thanks ...)
> > If Microsoft disappeared in its entirety, I'd buy a case of
> > champagne and invite my friends over for a _major_ celebration.
> > ...
>
> That's a great idea!
>
> > I'm 71, and started my programming career in 1970, five
> > years before Microsoft existed. The machine at my first
> > job had a whopping 16K of memory. We were a service
> > bureau, running things like payroll and accounts
> > receivable for companies all over town who couldn't
> > afford a computer of their own (i.e. most of them).
> >
> > So when someone tells me how many gigabytes of memory
> > I'd need to do a job, I take it with a _very_ large
> > grain of salt.

So do I. My first programming project in late '79 was an aid to an
automatic station break machine at the tv station where I was then the
ACE, back in the days when sony 3/4" u-matic tape machines were state of
the art. With a quest super elf rca 1802 powered board with an s-100
backplane bus, with a $400 4k of static ram memory add-on and interfacing
I built on s-100 vector boards including a 103 line tall 8.8 character
generator, it ran a u-matic machine to find the first frame of video to
be aired of a finished commercial, backed the tape up 12 seconds, ran it
fwd and started recording a new digital count down leader from 9.9 down
to 2.0 seconds, inserting an audio tone at the 5 second point for half a
second which was the automatic station breaks synch tone, then put a
second beep on the 2nd audio channel 5 seconds before the end of that
commercial to start the next machine if there was one. If not it flashed
a station id for half a second before switching back to the network.

All this on less than 4k of self modifying code. And it was so stable it
was used many times daily for 17 years, when the station burnt to the
ground and had to start over.

I still have a paper copy of that program along with an audio cart with
several copies on it in a bag on the top shelf above my chair. Now I'm
87, 20 some years retired, and playing with 4 cnc metalworking machines
I've rebuilt, and 3d printers in my dotage. And have managed to make the
reaper blink first several times.

> > We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the
> > impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much,
> > for so long, with so little, we are now qualified
> > to do anything with nothing.”
> >
> > -- Konstantin Josef Jireček
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sincerely, Linux fan Byung-Hee
>
> --
> ^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//
>

[David Wright]

On Fri 06 May 2022 at 09:24:35 (-0700), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:08:28 -0600
> > I can't understand this.

I'm not sure why you quoted this after three months without any
indication of its referent. What I didn't understand was why you
had to have /root under /home, and indeed, when you later revealed
your partition layout, it looked even less necessary, because you
have /root on a different partition.

> In a freshly installed Debian, /etc/passwd sets the home directory for
> root at /root. Here /etc/passwd sets the home directory for root at
> /home/root. No problem observed.

I wouldn't expect one. There are a whole variety of home directories
specified in /etc/passwd.

> > You may hit snags. Some programs might refuse to run, or do
> > strange things because they're written to distinguish between
> > root and an ordinary user.
> >
> > But hey, it could be quite exciting, like carrying a cocked
> > revolver tucked into your waistband. One casual typo, one
> > misplaced space, and you can blow away a whole disk.
>
> Working routinely for about 93 days and I no longer bother to keep
> fingers crossed. If reinstallation becomes necessary, tough luck.
> Just another chore.

I don't think the number of days has that much influence on whether
you'll get bitten, as the probability distribution is quite likely
to be memoryless. Unless, of course, you're noticing some of your
near-misses, and are becoming adept at avoiding or working around them.

> What I'm doing is similar to using DOS years ago; although DOS
> predates experience of most people reading now. If login is used
> properly, root shouldn't be more vulnerable than any other account.

That's right, and any old rogue TSR could crash the system, or any old
virus take it over. I ran DOS 3, 5 and 6.22 systems that were very
reliable, but only by restricting in the extreme what I ran on them.

But that doesn't inject any truth into your second statement, and
saying to use login "properly" just begs the question.

> You're welcome to probe my system. If you find a vulnerability, a
> post will help or amuse more than me.

No thanks, that just makes me an agent of reckless acts.

> > ... Puppy ...
>
> Incidentally, OpenBox is here with minimal graphics displayed.
> Most programs start from a terminal. Puppy is a nice system but
> the graphical interface is more than I want.

(I didn't express a view on Puppy itself, only two passing references
to others' writing about it. My view on the second was "so what".)

> > ISTR earlier posts where you've run up against permission problems,
> > but IMHO just running as perpetual root is not a sensible answer.
>
> For years my data was on an SD card reformatted to ext3. When
> switching to a new SD about a month ago, I decided to leave the
> factory installed FAT file system. No problems. The FAT file system
> lacks permissions as in ext.
>
> Motivation to leave FAT: authorities claim the factory format is
> optimized.

Did you leave out "not"? From which half of the sentence?

Unless you're running your system from a FAT filesystem, I'm not
sure I see a connection between this and solving your earlier
permissions problems (which I admit I barely recollect).

Cheers,
David.

[Marc Shapiro]

On 5/6/22 19:16, John Hasler wrote:
> James H. H. Lampert writes:
>> I started with a TRS-80 Model I myself (and with high school
>> programming classes on an IBM 370/135 at the District Office, with
>> terminals connected over a pair of multiplexed phone lines [and a
>> maximum terminal speed of 300 Baud]).
> Punch cards and an IBM 1620 at university. The first computer I owned I
> built using a Z80 SBC demo board. Cassette tape mass storage, modified
> Selectric printer, OCLC crt terminal, homebrew OS.

I starting in college with punch cards an IBM 360 and a PDP 11/15 that
actually let me sit at a terminal.  After I graduated I got a TRS 80
Model III (Z80)  with cassette tape for mass storage and 16K of RAM.

Marc

[David Wright]

On Wed 11 May 2022 at 23:31:41 (-0700), Marc Shapiro wrote:
>
> On 5/6/22 19:16, John Hasler wrote:
> > James H. H. Lampert writes:
> > > I started with a TRS-80 Model I myself (and with high school
> > > programming classes on an IBM 370/135 at the District Office, with
> > > terminals connected over a pair of multiplexed phone lines [and a
> > > maximum terminal speed of 300 Baud]).
> > Punch cards and an IBM 1620 at university. The first computer I owned I
> > built using a Z80 SBC demo board. Cassette tape mass storage, modified
> > Selectric printer, OCLC crt terminal, homebrew OS.
>
> I starting in college with punch cards an IBM 360

I too started by learning Fortran on an IBM 360/44. We collected all
our punched cards and lineprinter paper and sold it to subsidise the
Christmas booze. We even kept the useless chad.

Our jobs were run at the end of the working day because we were only
borrowing the time from Theoretical Astronomy. It sat in its own
detached building.

We punched the JCL on special coloured cards. I think this was because
the punch was unspooled, so if your program failed to compile, the
operators needed to be able to see the end of your data cards, to
clear them out of the stack of jobs, so that the next could run.

When we moved to using the university's 370/165, which had a
self-serve high-speed card reader, we had people searching for
the coloured cards because they thought the reader wouldn't
read JCL from ordinary ones! (The card reader was spooled with
HASP, so it always gobbled up all your cards—until they started
to get dog-eared.)

> and a PDP 11/15 that
> actually let me sit at a terminal.  After I graduated I got a TRS 80
> Model III (Z80)  with cassette tape for mass storage and 16K of RAM.

I was fortunate in never using 8-bit micros at all. The first 16-bit
I played with (not mine) was the Naked Mini/LSI, but most of my work
was with the HP9845. It was far too expensive to own one; I recall the
maintanance contract on it was £1000 per year in the early 80s, which
would be more than £4000 today.

Cheers,
David.

[pe...@easthope.ca]

From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:51:45 -0500

> What I didn't understand was why you had to have /root under /home,
> and indeed, when you later revealed your partition layout, it looked
> even less necessary, because you have /root on a different partition.

root@joule:/home/root# df | head -n 7
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
udev 1842984 0 1842984 0% /dev
tmpfs 374804 820 373984 1% /run
/dev/sda1 6202944 5427212 439656 93% /
tmpfs 1874004 0 1874004 0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5120 4 5116 1% /run/lock
/dev/sda4 25719004 12836372 11550820 53% /home

/dev/sda1 lacks space for a working directory.
/dev/sda4 has sufficient space.

Regards, ... P.L.