Can't install Debian - USB keyboard doesn't turn on until Windows loads

[Kitty Cat]

I can't install Debian. The USB keyboard doesn't turn on until Windows loads.

I bought a used MPC computer that only has USB ports -- No PS/2 ports.

The machine currently has Windows installed.

When installing Debian, it is required to press a button during the boot sequence in order to load a kernel.

I have tried numerous times to install Debian, but since the keyboard doesn't turn on until Windows loads I can't press any buttons during boot. I have also never been able to get into CMOS for the same reason.

I installed the Debian install into the Windows bootloader from the DVD and also booted the DVD directly. I must press a key during boot to activate.

Is it my keyboard maybe or the mobo that is causing the problem?

My Keyboard is AZZA brand, model KME381U

Mobo is "INTEL DESKTOP BOARD" and "E210882"

Computer is an "MPC CLIENTPRO 385"

[Bzzzz]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 20:12:11 -0600
Kitty Cat <realiza...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "MPC CLIENTPRO 385"

There are plenty of answers on… search engines (even how to
access the BIOS on a MPC).

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[Kitty Cat]

Yes. I have previously searched and found such things like this:

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-023466.htm

It says...

Check for and enable USB Legacy Support:

1. Attach a PS/2 keyboard to the computer and boot the system.
2. Enter BIOS Setup by pressing [F2] during boot.
3. Go to the Advanced > USB Configuration menu.
4. Set Legacy USB Support to Enabled. (May be listed as USB Legacy)
5. Exit and save changes [F10].

Any USB mouse or keyboard should now work in DOS mode.

HOWEVER... _This_mobo_does_not_have_a_PS/2_keyboard_or_mouse_connector._

I can only use USB keyboards and mice with it. The keyboard does not work until _after_ Windows loads.

If I boot the Debian install DVD, the menu comes up, but I am unable to press any buttons because the USB keyboard driver is not loaded or something similar.

So, what I think I need to do is find a way to get the Debian install DVD to bypass the need to press a key until such time that a USB keyboard driver loads or something like that.

OR... How do I tell the Windows bootloader to load the Linux kernel instead of booting Windows? This might work to get me past the point where the USB keyboard will work. However, if the keyboard doesn't start working after the kernel loads, then I'm stuck and won't be able to do anything with the computer.

[Terence]

A quick hardware fix is to buy a cheap (and some are very cheap- even in the UK!) usb key-board.

Or you may have a friend with one that you can borrow for an hour.

Saki

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 06/27/14 22:11, Kitty Cat wrote:
> Yes. I have previously searched and found such things like this:

Bios may access the keyboard without turning on any leds.

Look at

http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000192.htm

Turn on power to the computer. As soon as you do this, start pressing
the F1 key, like tap-tap-tap... and continue until you see something on
the monitor.

If you get to windows, shut down and try again with the F2 key.

One of the keys in the sequence should do it.

Tom Dean


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[Kitty Cat]

OK. I managed to get Debian installed. Here is what I did:

I had previously installed the Debian installer stuff from the DVD into the Windows bootloader. However, since my keyboard didn't work I couldn't tell the computer to start the Debian installer from the Windows bootloader menu, so I only had the option of starting Windows. I had the same problem with booting the Debian DVD directly. My USB keyboard was not working yet, so I could not start the installer.

So, after some thinking, I found this free program for managing the Windows bootloader:

https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/

In Windows, I used the program to change the default from Windows loading to loading the Debian installer.

I rebooted. As soon as the installer loaded, I was able to use my USB keyboard to install Debian.

This is the first time I have ever had this issue and the first time I have owned a computer without a PS/2 keyboard connector. I have another computer where the same USB keyboard works at system boot, so I can get into CMOS or choose options from the Grub menu.

However, I will still have the same problem in the future if I need to reinstall Debian. Plus, I cannot get into CMOS while my keyboard is not working during boot.

[Thomas D. Dean]

When you try to access BIOS from thekeyboard, make sure the keyboard is
connected directly to the computer, not through a hub.

Tom Dean


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[Kitty Cat]

My USB keyboard is connected directly to the computer. I have also tried it in every USB port on the computer.

The keyboard doesn't even work at the Windows bootloader menu or the Grub menu or the menu I get when I boot the Debian DVD.

I did manage to get Debian installed as I said in my other message, but I sure would like to be able to have the keyboard working at boot.

I'm thinking that a previous owner turned off the legacy USB keyboard support in the CMOS and since there is no option for a PS/2 keyboard, I think it may be stuck without keyboard access at boot time.

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:29 AM, Thomas D. Dean <tom...@wavecable.com> wrote:

When you try to access BIOS from thekeyboard, make sure the keyboard is connected directly to the computer, not through a hub.

Tom Dean


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[Tom Furie]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 01:39:45AM -0600, Kitty Cat wrote:

> I'm thinking that a previous owner turned off the legacy USB keyboard
> support in the CMOS and since there is no option for a PS/2 keyboard, I
> think it may be stuck without keyboard access at boot time.

If you can find a manual for the motherboard there should be a jumper to
clear CMOS which will reset the BIOS settings to defaults.
Alternatively, removing the CMOS battery for a few seconds will usually
achieve the same result. I would imagine that USB keyboard support would
be enabled in the default settings.

Cheers,
Tom

--
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<Topher> computer program listings....next, on HardCopy

[Kitty Cat]

That was a good idea. I tried it, but the keyboard still did not work.

I believe this is the correct motherboard:

http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/highlights/dsktpboards/dq965co

There is a barcode sticker on the mobo with that number on it.

I only got the computer when I bought it. No manual, keyboard, etc. came with it.

I was digging around the online documentation trying to figure out where the reset jumper was located and found this:

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-002842.htm

This is also strange to me. On some mobo's they tell you to swap the jumper to the other pin which resets the CMOS then switch it back before you power it on because it can damage the board. With this board, you swap the jumper and then turn it on and you wind up in CMOS when it boots. However, my keyboard was still not working while in CMOS.

So, I unplugged everything and took out the battery. Waited a while, then plugged everything back in but I left the battery out. Then powered it on. I wound up back in CMOS again and the keyboard still did not work. So, I unplugged everything again and put the battery back in.

I think it did reset CMOS though. Because now it says that there was a battery failure and that there is a CMOS checksum error and something about the time being not set. I also unplugged my hard drive and it tried to boot off the network. So, it seems to work OK. It still boots the hard drive when it is plugged in.

After all my poking and prodding, I am thinking that maybe it needs a certain type of USB keyboard in order to have a working keyboard at boot. I know that some USB devices have to have drivers before the computer knows what to do with them. I'm thinking that may be the case with my keyboard but not sure. Maybe the mobo simply does not power up the USB ports at boot. But then that doesn't really make any sense either.

This is the strangest computer that I have worked with.

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 11:11:48PM -0600, Kitty Cat wrote:
> So, what I think I need to do is find a way to get the Debian install DVD
> to bypass the need to press a key until such time that a USB keyboard
> driver loads or something like that.

I'd try a 'Live CD' first to see if all functions are ok, first.

Knoppix springs to mind, can't think of any others off the top of my
head. A google should bring up other alternatives.
http://knoppix.net/get.php

It seems to want you to dance then jump through hoops before you can find
the download link! :( I found that link above, but didn't go any futher.
>From previous memory, it took a bit of dancing before I found an actual
.iso. :(

--
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oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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[Tom Furie]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 03:34:23AM -0600, Kitty Cat wrote:

> After all my poking and prodding, I am thinking that maybe it needs a
> certain type of USB keyboard in order to have a working keyboard at boot. I
> know that some USB devices have to have drivers before the computer knows
> what to do with them. I'm thinking that may be the case with my keyboard
> but not sure. Maybe the mobo simply does not power up the USB ports at
> boot. But then that doesn't really make any sense either.

Hmm, I think following Chris Bannister's advice of trying a live-cd
distro would be worth testing to see if your keyboard is recognised and
functional there. If that fails, then I'd try a cheap USB keyboard. It
would be unusual in my experience for a keyboard to need any kind of
driver beyond what's already there for basic functionality, but I'm open
to the possibility with "gaming" keyboards.

Cheers,
Tom

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[Chris Bannister]

[Please don't top post on this list.]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 01:26:19AM -0600, Kitty Cat wrote:
> OK. I managed to get Debian installed. Here is what I did:
>
> I had previously installed the Debian installer stuff from the DVD into the
> Windows bootloader. However, since my keyboard didn't work I couldn't tell
> the computer to start the Debian installer from the Windows bootloader
> menu, so I only had the option of starting Windows. I had the same problem
> with booting the Debian DVD directly. My USB keyboard was not working yet,
> so I could not start the installer.
>
> So, after some thinking, I found this free program for managing the Windows
> bootloader:
>
> https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
>
> In Windows, I used the program to change the default from Windows loading
> to loading the Debian installer.

Good thinking!

> I rebooted. As soon as the installer loaded, I was able to use my USB
> keyboard to install Debian.

Ahh!, so it is OK once running.

> However, I will still have the same problem in the future if I need to
> reinstall Debian. Plus, I cannot get into CMOS while my keyboard is not
> working during boot.

You should not ever have to reinstall Debian on this machine again. One
of the beauties of Debian is that it is only an upgrade away to the next
release.

Ahh, I see you have said, "... if I *need* to reinstall ...", in that
case you will refer to your notes. :-)

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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[Darac Marjal]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 20:12:11 -0600
Kitty Cat <realiza...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can't install Debian. The USB keyboard doesn't turn on until Windows
> loads.

OK. So do the early stage of the install from Windows.

http://people.debian.org/~rmh/goodbye-microsoft/

You might also want to complain to your PC manufacurer.

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[Kent West]

I had a computer once which exhibited this behavior. It's not
Debian-related; it's hardware related. I couldn't even get into the
BIOS, etc. i never found a solution. I gave up on the computer and gave
it to a friend who was happy running Windows. I've worked with hundreds
of computers; that was the only one I've ever seen do that. (As I
recall, it was a consumer-level Compaq, probably somewhere in the
2005-2010 era.)

--
Kent

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[Kent West]

On 6/28/14, 8:42 AM, Kent West wrote:

> On 6/28/14, 8:35 AM, Kent West wrote:
>> On 6/27/14, 9:12 PM, Kitty Cat wrote:
>>> I can't install Debian. The USB keyboard doesn't turn on until
>>> Windows loads.
>>>

>> I had a computer once which exhibited this behavior. It's not
>> Debian-related; it's hardware related. I couldn't even get into the

>> BIOS,...
>
> I'm rethinking that (it's been a long time, and my memory fails me)
<snip>
> the keyboard just wouldn't work outside of Windows. It was very weird
> to me.
>
I'm rethinking again; I think maybe the mouse worked fine from a LiveCD
after the X Window System started, but that if I installed Linux, and
didn't have the boot loader configured to start Linux automagically, I
could never get into Linux on a boot; it would either default to Windows
(dual-boot setup, as I recall), or would just sit there forever waiting
for a keypress I could not provide.

--
Kent


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[Kent West]

On 6/28/14, 8:35 AM, Kent West wrote:

> On 6/27/14, 9:12 PM, Kitty Cat wrote:
>> I can't install Debian. The USB keyboard doesn't turn on until
>> Windows loads.
>>

> I had a computer once which exhibited this behavior. It's not
> Debian-related; it's hardware related. I couldn't even get into the

> BIOS,...

I'm rethinking that (it's been a long time, and my memory fails me); I
might could get into the BIOS; I vaguely recall going in and checking it
for such things as Legacy USB support. But otherwise, my memory tells me
I was seeing what you describe. I remember that it "felt" like a flakey
motherboard; if I recall correctly, it had come in for repair after a
lightning strike at the owner's house had fried the power supply or
jolted the drive into death, or something similar (and another tech had
resurrected it to the point of running Windows, but the original owner
had given up on it by then and bought a more recent computer anyway).
Although the mobo appeared fine otherwise, the keyboard just wouldn't

work outside of Windows. It was very weird to me.

--
Kent



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[Bzzzz]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 23:11:48 -0600
Kitty Cat <realiza...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-023466.htm

Don't trust the manufacturer specs as most of the time
your mobo has been modified according to the (big)
purchaser specs.

Did you try all Fn keys (several times, some BIOS have
a very short window of time for key typing), did you
try the Del key, did you try Ctrl-Fn, etc ?

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<backwash> I must patent my idea.
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<Phnx> yeah =)
<backwash> Hence, the invention of the mouse-crumb-collector!
<backwash> THE concept

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 28 June 2014 08:02:39 Terence wrote:
> A quick hardware fix is to buy a cheap (and some are very cheap- even in
> the UK!) usb key-board.

She's got a USB keyboard. She needs a ps/2, and tehse are almost
unobtainable.

Lisi

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[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 28 June 2014 08:39:45 Kitty Cat wrote:
> since there is no option for a PS/2 keyboard,

Sorry. I reacted too glibly. :-(

Lisi


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[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 28 June 2014 15:31:51 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> She needs a ps/2, and tehse are almost
> unobtainable.

No, she doesn't. Mea culpa. I shouldn't dive in etc.

Lisi


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[Tom Furie]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 03:31:51PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> She's got a USB keyboard. She needs a ps/2, and tehse are almost
> unobtainable.

Except a PS/2 keyboard won't help either since the computer doesn't have
PS/2 ports.

Cheers,
Tom

--
10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.

[Tom Furie]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 03:39:57PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> No, she doesn't. Mea culpa. I shouldn't dive in etc.

Oops, sorry. Replied to your previous message before reading this one.
Perhaps I should follow your advice.

Cheers,
Tom

--
A tall, dark stranger will have more fun than you.

[Andrew McGlashan]

On 28/06/2014 11:35 PM, Kent West wrote:
> I had a computer once which exhibited this behavior. It's not
> Debian-related; it's hardware related. I couldn't even get into the
> BIOS, etc. i never found a solution. I gave up on the computer and gave
> it to a friend who was happy running Windows. I've worked with hundreds
> of computers; that was the only one I've ever seen do that. (As I
> recall, it was a consumer-level Compaq, probably somewhere in the
> 2005-2010 era.)

I've also had a weird problem with an Asus box [a Nova P22 box], if I
wanted to get to the BIOS properly I had to unplug all USB devices that
weren't required; one of the devices was interfering with even seeing
anything on the screen. I can't remember what the device was.

It may have been an Asus monitor with USB ports / speakers, etc ... from
memory. It was strange though.

Cheers
A.

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[Thomas D. Dean]

There is sometimes a very short window to access the BIOS.

On my (different) system, as soon as I power up, I start tapping the F2
key, about 2 times per second. After several seconds, I get into BIOS.

There may be some exact moment to press F2 one time, but, I have not
found it.

I can not hold the F2 down because BIOS will determine there is a
keyboard problem, I think. I have not done that recently.

Maybe you need to clear the BIOS settings? I have never had to do that.

Tom Dean

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[Bzzzz]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:57:23 -0700

"Thomas D. Dean" <tom...@wavecable.com> wrote:

> Maybe you need to clear the BIOS settings? I have never had to do
> that.

From what he said, he's done that (although removing the battery
don't work, except if you wait for "some time" because of the
capacitor(s) power backup).
IF this was done correctly (jumper or short circuit of 2 points),
we could assume a non-ps/2 machine resetting its BIOS would, by
default, enable legacy USB; but we can't be sure 100%…

About the key typing time windows, I've seen BIOSes that only
left ~1s, which is quite short (addon cards, such as SCSI
controllers, can also reduce the window).

--
<J.A> I'm such a no-life that when I get out home,
people think I'm a new neighbor --'

[Kitty Cat]

I have two questions:

1. Would anyone be willing to give me a link to a simple USB keyboard that you
think would work with this machine at boot time? Perhaps on Amazon.com or
Newegg.com, etc.?

2. Do you know of a Debian CD of some type that will load a kernel without the

need of a key press before the kernel loads? Debian install CD's and Live CD's

require a key press at boot in order to load a kernel. I'm not sure about Knoppix

but thought I would ask before wasting a DVD disc to find out that it won't boot.

Here is what's going on with this machine:

The USB keyboard that I have is not supported by the motherboard for some
reason. However, the keyboard does work however after a kernel loads.

My keyboard is a an AZZA brand, model number KME381U. It has buttons on

it that will (in Windows) launch a web browser, change the speaker volume, etc.

The motherboard has no PS/2 connector. I do have a PS/2 keyboard that I
could use, but there is no place on the motherboard to plug it in.

The motherboard does not have a clear CMOS jumper that I could find. There
is a CMOS jumper on the motherboard, however, when this jumper is switched,

when the computer boots, it puts me directly into CMOS and the keyboard
did not work while in CMOS.

I did take out the battery, waited a while, left the battery out, turned on the

computer with the CMOS jumper moved and wound up back in CMOS but

the keyboard was still not working.

I was able to install Debian by changing the windows bootloader to boot the

Debian installer as I described earlier. Now Debian is the only OS on the

machine. I was planning to only use this computer via SSH connection. So,

I only need a keyboard if I want to change CMOS settings or select an option

from the Grub boot menu.

So, it appears that my only solution is to get a different USB keyboard for this
machine.

[Joseph Loo]

Before you do that, Have you tried all the USB slots. some of the motherboards are sensitive to the USB connection at the bios start period. One clue, is power on the keyboard at the start, i.e. flash of the keyboard lights (sometimes).

-- 
Joseph Loo
jl...@acm.org

[Rusi Mody]

> default, enable legacy USB; but we can't be sure 100%...

> About the key typing time windows, I've seen BIOSes that only
> left ~1s, which is quite short (addon cards, such as SCSI
> controllers, can also reduce the window).

When I first saw this question, I looked here:
/boot/grub/i386-pc/

and see a module usb_keyboard.mod (and other interesting usb stuff)

That of course leaves the questions:

1. How to get it -- presumably insmod usb_keyboard -- into a grub line
without a keyboard -- probably needs tinkering with it on a different
machine

2. What is it anyway? As usual grub docs are insufficient but the grub mailing list
may help

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