Buster no release file

kris

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Jul 10, 2021, 6:30:05 PM7/10/21

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Long version of error message in activities software.
Unable to dowmload updates: Failed to update cache: E: the
repository /cdrom://Debian GNU/ Linux 10.10.0-Buster_-Official amd64 DVD
Binary-1 2021069-16:12 Buster Release does not have release file.
I should note i have seperate swap var partitions.
etc/apt/source.list.d is empty. I have attached sources.list

sources.list

Greg Wooledge

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Jul 10, 2021, 6:50:04 PM7/10/21

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On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 03:28:27PM -0700, kris wrote:
> Long version of error message in activities software.
> Unable to dowmload updates: Failed to update cache: E: the
> repository /cdrom://Debian GNU/ Linux 10.10.0-Buster_-Official amd64 DVD
> Binary-1 2021069-16:12 Buster Release does not have release file.

Unless you have a specific reason to keep trying to pull packages
from your DVD, you should probably just remove those lines, and replace
them with regular Internet sources.

> I should note i have seperate swap var partitions.

Irrelevant.

> etc/apt/source.list.d is empty. I have attached sources.list
>

> #
>
> # deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 10.10.0 _Buster_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-1 20210619-16:12]/ buster contrib main
>
> deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 10.10.0 _Buster_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-1 20210619-16:12]/ buster contrib main
>
> deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 10.10.0 _Buster_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-2 20210619-16:12]/ buster contrib main
>
> deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main contrib
> deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main contrib

You've got an Internet source for the security updates, so if that's
going to work, you should be able to use an Internet source for the
regular packages as well.

Remove all of the cdrom: lines (unless, as I said, you *really* need
to use them for some reason, and have made arrangements for the DVD
to be mounted at need), and replace them with a standard buster source.

I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
want you to have that information.

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22

You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.

I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

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Jul 10, 2021, 8:20:05 PM7/10/21

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Hi,

> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
>
> You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
>
> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
>

Those are the type of plague that give free software community a really
bad image. That kind of really stupid action of erasing others work only
because we are able to do so.

Wikipedia had the same problem and had to lock some pages.
That's a sad person to act this way.

At least we can still find what you wrote by looking thru revision but
we have to know there's something to look for.

--
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

OpenPGP_signature

rhkr...@gmail.com

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Jul 10, 2021, 9:30:04 PM7/10/21

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On Saturday, July 10, 2021 06:44:47 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
>
> You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
>
> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.

+1

Do you know him or have had any contact with him (other than by virtue of the
change he made to the wiki)?

I mean, it seems like if there was a good reason to delete that information
(which I can't imagine), he should have given a better explanation of why he
was deleting it.

Aside: I meant to write to you some weeks ago to thank you for the information
you maintain in your wiki. Thank you!

Greg Wooledge

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Jul 10, 2021, 9:50:04 PM7/10/21

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On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 09:25:51PM -0400, rhkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 10, 2021 06:44:47 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> > the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> > want you to have that information.
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
> >
> > You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> > Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
> >
> > I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
>
> +1
>
> Do you know him or have had any contact with him (other than by virtue of the
> change he made to the wiki)?

No, I've never heard of him before.

> I mean, it seems like if there was a good reason to delete that information
> (which I can't imagine), he should have given a better explanation of why he
> was deleting it.

I've dealt with people like this in other communities. Some people
seem to feel that a wiki has a fixed format, and that certain pages
should *only* contain certain pieces of information, in a certain format,
and that any deviation from this historical format must be stamped out.

I don't know where this mindset comes from, but I'd bet there are
multiple Debian wiki editors who hold it. There's rarely just one.
There's typically a self-appointed cabal.

If you ever wonder why the Debian wiki will never match the Arch wiki in
terms of quality, people like this are a part of the reason.

Tixy

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Jul 11, 2021, 3:40:04 AM7/11/21

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On Sat, 2021-07-10 at 21:40 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 09:25:51PM -0400, rhkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 10, 2021 06:44:47 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> > > the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> > > want you to have that information.
> > >
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
> > >
> > > You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> > > Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
> > >
> > > I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Do you know him or have had any contact with him (other than by virtue of the
> > change he made to the wiki)?
>
> No, I've never heard of him before.

I've seen his name on various Debian lists and official contexts. If
you follow the link on the wiki diff [1] you'll see he's a Debian
project member and part of the wiki admin team.

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

If you look at the wiki page for GregWooledge there is no contact info
only a link to a page that starts with American political messages.

Fortunately, my first impressions of this Greg person were from
postings to this list, so to me he's this Bash expert and generally
technically sound guy who's worth listening to.

--
Tixy

mick crane

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Jul 11, 2021, 5:20:04 AM7/11/21

to

On 2021-07-10 23:44, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.

control freaks are the biggest problem facing society today.
mick
--
Key ID 4BFEBB31

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 7:10:04 AM7/11/21

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On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:18:37AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-07-10 23:44, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> >I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
> control freaks are the biggest problem facing society today.

Now calling someone "asshole" in public is rather extreme; I can fully
understand Greg's anger, but still.

Mass-jumping on someone without having even tried to contact him (perhaps
it was a stupid misunderstanding, a brain fart, a fat finger or something
my fantasy fails to come up with right now)... well, I hope that's not
the style around here. Perhaps Twwatty or Fakebook (or whatsitiscalled)
provide that kind of thrill.

So please, pretty please: calm down :)

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

Andrew M.A. Cater

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Jul 11, 2021, 7:40:05 AM7/11/21

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On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:18:37AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

Folks,

Rather than call people assholes and control freaks: please look at the local
context. Bullseye - Debian 11 - is potentially to be released in three weeks.

There's an amount of wiki gardening going on to tidy up, get translations
sorted, update pages. When Bullseye comes along, Buster drops to oldstable
and another year or so of support, Stretch drops to oldoldstable and support
by the LTS team and so it goes. The wiki is always in flux, some of it out
of date, much of it needing revision: if you wanted, you could get an account
yourselves.

Elsewhere in the Debin wiki - under SourcesList - which is a logical place,
maybe, https://wiki.debian.org/SourcesList i a complete sources list for
buster which also explains clearly how to add contrib and non-free if you
need them. I'm guessing that will be replaced in due course for one for
Bullseye. NOTE WELL: There is a change in format for the security sources
in Bullseye which is well covered in the draft release notes and elsewhere.

Respect goes all around - easily upwards to some people who have been around
longer/may know more/ are helpful/give good advice, are friendly, downwards
to people who may know less than you/whom you can help and sideways to your
peers. At any given time, each of you occupies one or more of those positions
for the others around you on this list and inside/outside Debian.

Try to be maybe a bit more thoughtful as to the effect such posts have?

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 8:40:05 AM7/11/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 01:05:44PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-07-11 12:01, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> >So please, pretty please: calm down :)
>

> You are correct, I have no idea of the individuals.

Thanks :)

> Guess I am overwhelmed by the turn society has taken.

Who is not. Life's always beeen outrageous (I'm an old guy, believe me :)

I think the art is to use that ourtrage to try to change things, instead
of slinging it at one's co-humans (who might themselves be outraged, but
from a different POV and thusly for different reasons). Not that *I*
manage as I wish I did...

> Next we will be banning variable names for being inappropriate.

I'm sure that happens somewhere, some time. OTOH, worse things happen,
too. Someone is being murdered right now. Kids are starving, deprived
of schooling, being abused of or forced to work. Lotsa things to do!

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

Gene Heskett

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Jul 11, 2021, 12:40:05 PM7/11/21

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On Sunday 11 July 2021 08:29:52 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 01:05:44PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > On 2021-07-11 12:01, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > >So please, pretty please: calm down :)
> >
> > You are correct, I have no idea of the individuals.
>
> Thanks :)
>
> > Guess I am overwhelmed by the turn society has taken.
>
> Who is not. Life's always beeen outrageous (I'm an old guy, believe me
> :)
>
> I think the art is to use that ourtrage to try to change things,
> instead of slinging it at one's co-humans (who might themselves be
> outraged, but from a different POV and thusly for different reasons).
> Not that *I* manage as I wish I did...

Me too Tomas, and I think I have at least a decade on you, if I don't get
shot for refusing the shot, I'll be 87 in early October. I found a daily
St. Johns Wort in my pilltainer helps to tame the raging bull in me. But
not enough to make me take back what I didn't sell. :)

> > Next we will be banning variable names for being inappropriate.

Already happening, sorry to say.

> I'm sure that happens somewhere, some time. OTOH, worse things happen,
> too. Someone is being murdered right now. Kids are starving, deprived
> of schooling, being abused of or forced to work. Lotsa things to do!

Most of the above is mans own inhumanity to man, but being forced to work
is not necessarily abuse, it was the rule in the house I grew up in with
a stepfather, who was first an honest man and taught me by example in
that dept, so one of the rules was I went to school or I got a job. I
helped him build a house on a cut off corner of a field my grandfather
gave us in the aftermath of WW_II in 1946, and at 12 years old, I wired
that house for electricity. And when I turned 21 and could, I thought
enough of the man who raised me to change my name to match his. That is
respect. And it didn't cost an arm and leg for the adoption papers which
in Iowa, are a legal racket for the lawyers.

> Cheers

Back at-cha Tomas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Greg Wooledge

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Jul 11, 2021, 2:10:04 PM7/11/21

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On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:01:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> * I do not understand what the issue is.

The issue is that there is a self-appointed "wiki-owners' association"
that will undo any efforts one may make to try to improve the wiki.
Certain pages are "sacred" and must be kept in a specific form, because
that's the status quo, and the status quo is more important than
usefulness.

It's never worth getting into an edit war against these cabals, because
you (the outsider) will always lose. The status quo will prevail. All
hail the status quo.

Brian

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Jul 11, 2021, 2:10:04 PM7/11/21

to

On Sat 10 Jul 2021 at 18:44:47 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
>
> You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
>
> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.

I considered re-editing the wiki to meet your concerns but

* I could end up being put in the same category as another editor.
* The edit was made almost two years ago and was unnoticed.

* I do not understand what the issue is.

* It's a wiki. Sympathisers with your cause may have their own plans.
* I have trouble with posts containing threatening language.
* Ruffled feathers can be preened.
* Why me?

--
Brian.

Brian

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Jul 11, 2021, 2:20:05 PM7/11/21

to

There isn't any cabal; just interested, concerned and active users
of the wiki.

Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
persuasive argument?

--
Brian.

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 2:30:04 PM7/11/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 12:32:35PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> > > Next we will be banning variable names for being inappropriate.
>
> Already happening, sorry to say.

Why sorry? That was the point of my "missive". There are much worse
things around us happening right now. Perhaps there /is/ a reason for
that variable change, after all. Argue with the folks proposing the
change (but be open and prepared to be convinced... otherwise you have
no right to expect convincing others ;-D

[...]

> Most of the above is mans own inhumanity to man [...]

> but being forced to work is not necessarily abuse [...]

I meant abuse *and* child labour; views on the latter change, as
everything else. Electrical code changes, too -- you can't wire
a house nowadays as if it were 1923. You might get in hot water
for that ;-)

P.S: You have over two decades on me, BTW :)

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

Brian

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Jul 11, 2021, 2:50:05 PM7/11/21

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On Sun 11 Jul 2021 at 20:27:23 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 12:32:35PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > > Next we will be banning variable names for being inappropriate.
> >
> > Already happening, sorry to say.
>
> Why sorry? That was the point of my "missive". There are much worse
> things around us happening right now. Perhaps there /is/ a reason for
> that variable change, after all. Argue with the folks proposing the
> change (but be open and prepared to be convinced... otherwise you have
> no right to expect convincing others ;-D

I'm lost. Variable change? A link from either of you, please.

>
> [...]
>
> > Most of the above is mans own inhumanity to man [...]
>
> > but being forced to work is not necessarily abuse [...]
>
> I meant abuse *and* child labour; views on the latter change, as
> everything else.

OK.

> Electrical code changes, too -- you can't wire
> a house nowadays as if it were 1923. You might get in hot water
> for that ;-)

Talk about a change of subject!

--
Brian.

Stefan Monnier

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Jul 11, 2021, 3:00:05 PM7/11/21

to

> Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
> persuasive argument?

In my experience, "communicate with the editor" is the second step, the
first step being "try to figure out how to communicate with the editor".

Stefan

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 3:10:05 PM7/11/21

to

I think this was settled: he's a well-known Debian maintainer, after all.

Cheers
- t

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to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 3:20:05 PM7/11/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:44:07PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 11 Jul 2021 at 20:27:23 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 12:32:35PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > > Next we will be banning variable names for being inappropriate.
> > >
> > > Already happening, sorry to say.
> >

> > Why sorry? [...]

> I'm lost. Variable change? A link from either of you, please.

The "master" and "slave" terms come to mind, see [1] for an example.
My take? I think it's irrelevant, but feel free to open a new thread
if you're (still) curious. But I don't think my take is that interesting,
anyway :)

> > Electrical code changes, too [...]

> Talk about a change of subject!

πάντα ρέι [1] ;-)

Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panta_rhei_(Heraclitus)
- tomás

signature.asc

Thomas Schmitt

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Jul 11, 2021, 4:10:05 PM7/11/21

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Hi,

Brian wrote:
> Variable change? A link from either of you, please.

After googling "offensive variable name" i got to:

"Fix use of offensive word in kafka receiver factory_test"
https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-collector/issues/2286

which led to

"changed variable name in kafka receiver"
https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-collector/pull/2288/files/c16ff3d61ac966534590585477934eddaeb6b129

Above Github issue indicates that there are blacklists maintained:

"Automated security scanners flag the use of this variable name as
a potentially offensive word"

But of course the use of a blacklist is a problem too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklist_%28computing%29#Controversy_over_use_of_the_term
https://www.theregister.com/2019/09/03/chromium_microsoft_offensive/

Whatever, the use of controversial words in publicly visible code is not
an indication of a professional attitude. Overdoing juvenile enthusiasm
for provocation might lead to a result like with the "weboob" package which
got removed from Debian
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Andrew M.A. Cater

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Jul 11, 2021, 4:20:04 PM7/11/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:05:39PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Brian wrote:
> > Variable change? A link from either of you, please.
>
> After googling "offensive variable name" i got to:
>
> "Fix use of offensive word in kafka receiver factory_test"
> https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-collector/issues/2286
>
> which led to
>
> "changed variable name in kafka receiver"
> https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-collector/pull/2288/files/c16ff3d61ac966534590585477934eddaeb6b129
>
>
> Above Github issue indicates that there are blacklists maintained:
>
> "Automated security scanners flag the use of this variable name as
> a potentially offensive word"
>
> But of course the use of a blacklist is a problem too:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklist_%28computing%29#Controversy_over_use_of_the_term
> https://www.theregister.com/2019/09/03/chromium_microsoft_offensive/
>

I've found deny_list and allow_list or similar to be quite useful.
Everything can go too far but actually sometimes things do end
up being more clear.

>
> Whatever, the use of controversial words in publicly visible code is not
> an indication of a professional attitude. Overdoing juvenile enthusiasm
> for provocation might lead to a result like with the "weboob" package which
> got removed from Debian
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>

You too

Andy Cater
> Thomas
>

ghe2001

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Jul 11, 2021, 4:30:04 PM7/11/21

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

<IMHO>

Master/slave my be less than optimal when describing humans, but they're very useful when working with DNS.

And blacklist is useful in SMTP, among others. IIRC, the word refers to voting in classical Athens, not humans.

Offensive terms should, of course, be removed from public discourse, but programmers are free to use any string they want to name a variable in their code -- especially when released compiled.

</IMHO>

--
Glenn English

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to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 11, 2021, 4:40:05 PM7/11/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 08:25:22PM +0000, ghe2001 wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> <IMHO>
>
> Master/slave my be less than optimal when describing humans, but they're very useful when working with DNS.
>
> And blacklist is useful in SMTP, among others. IIRC, the word refers to voting in classical Athens, not humans.
>
> Offensive terms should, of course, be removed from public discourse, but programmers are free to use any string they want to name a variable in their code -- especially when released compiled.

The latter may be too simplistic if you're doing free software:
publishing the code becomes part of the game, and if you hope
that people from all over the world reads and enhances the source,
you're smack in the middle of public discourse.

Back to my preferred aphorism: "all generalisations suck" ;-)

Cheers
- t

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Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

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Jul 11, 2021, 5:00:04 PM7/11/21

to

Hi,

> Whatever, the use of controversial words in publicly visible code is not
> an indication of a professional attitude. Overdoing juvenile enthusiasm
> for provocation might lead to a result like with the "weboob" package which
> got removed from Debian
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199
>

Just took a look at this.
It was a real time consuming job only to "try" fixing something done
because a kid had too much free time !

It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
a software.

>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>

OpenPGP_signature

jeremy ardley

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Jul 11, 2021, 5:10:04 PM7/11/21

to

You can also run into problems with different languages. For instance a
Swedish developer would have no problem using terms fart, prick, and
fack, but some English speakers might take offense. The are actually in
English fast, small dot, and small compartment.

(WRT fart I used to do fartlek training for orienteering without major
problems)

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 12, 2021, 3:50:05 AM7/12/21

to

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 04:59:52AM +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
>
> On 12/07/2021 4:32 am, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> You can also run into problems with different languages. For
> instance a Swedish developer would have no problem using terms fart,
> prick, and fack, but some English speakers might take offense. The
> are actually in English fast, small dot, and small compartment.
>
> (WRT fart I used to do fartlek training for orienteering without
> major problems)

Definitely. My take is that we are currently seeing "growing pains",
because "our" community used to be much more homogeneous. And I think,
in the long term, this is a Good Thing, if we all manage to be a bit
tolerant (tolerance is always an "outward motion", i.e. you start
always with yourself :)

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 12, 2021, 3:50:06 AM7/12/21

to

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 04:58:55PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
> a software.

Denigrating someone because you disagree with him/her is not a sign of
wisdom. Quoting your own signature: "be wise...".

And no, I don't intend to discuss that further with you.

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

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Jul 12, 2021, 4:20:05 AM7/12/21

to

Hi,

On 2021-07-12 3:43 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 04:58:55PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
>> a software.
>
> Denigrating someone because you disagree with him/her is not a sign of
> wisdom. Quoting your own signature: "be wise...".
>

I didn't denigrate someone.
For your information, name calling, being rude, being offensive are
things we all mostly done in the school yard, as a kid.

So, when someone act this way, for example by using the word "faggot"
inside a software. In this particular case, as a text message sent when
the software goes over web protection against automation. I say that
this person is acting like it was in the school yard.

And that is childish.

I don't know what you are looking for but maybe you have too much free time.

> And no, I don't intend to discuss that further with you.
>

What's the goal of your message ?
You didn't need to add your "two bits of salt and pepers" if you didn't
want the answer.

> Cheers
> - t

OpenPGP_signature

Andrei POPESCU

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Jul 12, 2021, 4:20:05 AM7/12/21

to

On Sb, 10 iul 21, 18:44:47, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22

According to the diff the information was replaced with a pointer to the
release information for buster on the website.

Seems to me like an attempt to avoid duplication (which can easily
result in information get out of sync)[1].

My (probably biased) view is that also the NewIn<Release> pages are
duplicating a lot of information that either belongs in the Release
Notes (please file bugs against the package 'release-notes') or is
already included there.

Is such duplication really helpful?

If the Release Notes are unsuitable for whatever purpose, what can be
done to make them better?

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

signature.asc

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

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Jul 12, 2021, 4:20:05 AM7/12/21

to

Hi,

On 2021-07-12 3:43 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 04:58:55PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
>> a software.
>
> Denigrating someone because you disagree with him/her is not a sign of
> wisdom. Quoting your own signature: "be wise...".
>

Think what you want... If you have better adjective for someone who does
the following :

--START OF CODE--
print("Ok, so leave now, fag.")

# XXX OLD API IS DISABLED (fucking faggots)

def build_token(self, token):
"""
These fucking faggots have introduced a new protection on the token.

Each time there is a call to SAB (selectActionButton), the token
available in the form is modified with a key available in JS:

# CAUTION: this fucking website write a 'Date valeur' inside
a div with a class == 'c-ope'

# i hope they fucking burn in hell for making it that painful

--END OF CODE--

https://git.woob.tech/weboob/weboob/merge_requests/228/diffs

So if you have better word for this type of action than calling this
"childish" then I'd be more than happy to say "Sorry, someone got me a
better word to explain this politely".

Have you read the diffs regarding the "weboob" software that was mentioned ?

Maybe it would be good to know what you are talking about ?

> And no, I don't intend to discuss that further with you.
>

Then why do you bother writing me a message then ?

> Cheers
> - t

OpenPGP_signature

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 12, 2021, 4:30:04 AM7/12/21

to

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 04:11:18AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 2021-07-12 3:43 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 04:58:55PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
> >> a software.
> >
> > Denigrating someone because you disagree with him/her is not a sign of
> > wisdom. Quoting your own signature: "be wise...".
> >
> I didn't denigrate someone.

Have the last word. I didn't even read it. For me, this thread is through.

Cheers
- t

signature.asc

Thomas Schmitt

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Jul 12, 2021, 5:40:04 AM7/12/21

to

Hi,

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside quoted:

> # XXX OLD API IS DISABLED (fucking faggots)

(Conveniently already marked as "XXX" language.)

grep finds in linux-source-4.19 the first f-word (with or without "ing")
at 30 occasions with a wide range of actual meanings.

Self-irony:
./drivers/scsi/qlogicpti.h:/* Am I fucking pedantic or what? */

Self-pity:
./net/core/skbuff.c: /* Fuck, we are miserable poor guys... */

Jokingly cursing against the establishment (maybe by the establishment
himself):
./lib/vsprintf.c: * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)

Astonishment:
./drivers/media/i2c/bt819.c: BUG? Why does turning the chroma comb on fuck up color?

Pedagogics:
./Documentation/kernel-hacking/locking.rst:If you don't see why, please stay the fuck away from my code.

Outmost warning:
./arch/m68k/include/asm/sun3ints.h:/* master list of VME vectors -- don't fuck with this */

The other f-word is not present in the kernel sources.
(Maybe because bleep-ing Windows bleeps call us "Linux fags" ?)

Curt

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Jul 12, 2021, 6:00:05 AM7/12/21

to

On 2021-07-12, Andrei POPESCU <andreim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is such duplication really helpful?

The answer is manifestly yes, unless you're unable to conceive of
someone coming across the information in the wiki rather than in the
voluminous release notes.

> If the Release Notes are unsuitable for whatever purpose, what can be
> done to make them better?

This is a complete straw man. If you want people to be aware of some
essential bit of information, a redundancy of sources is beneficial.
That's why information campaigns *disseminate* information in a number
of media, and in a number of ways. There is no rationality behind
imposing a mutual exclusivity in this case; to the contrary, experience
would argue against it.

Nicolas George

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Jul 12, 2021, 6:00:05 AM7/12/21

to

Thomas Schmitt (12021-07-12):

> (Maybe because bleep-ing Windows bleeps call us "Linux fags" ?)

Maybe because the kernel programmers are smart enough to know that it's
not about the word, it's about what it means.

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

signature.asc

rhkr...@gmail.com

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Jul 12, 2021, 7:00:04 AM7/12/21

to

On Monday, July 12, 2021 04:11:18 AM Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> And that is childish.

And that is denigrating.

Reco

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Jul 12, 2021, 7:00:05 AM7/12/21

to

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Just a friendly reminder to all participants of this thread.

Reco

unread,

Jul 12, 2021, 10:50:05 AM7/12/21

to

> Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
> might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
> youth.

Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a
serious one.
But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its
gravity with such exaggerated actions.

I for one, have never in my life thought of alcohol when I saw a
variable named "foobar". That is ... until I saw your post today :) .

What's next? Should we also file a ticket to ban "chocolate bar".
Or maybe we should ban mathematics completely from computing, since the
"bar" symbol is a frequently used one there?

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Bar.html
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Macron.html

Give today's youth a bit of credit. You might discover that they are
smarter than you think.

I still hope that you were joking though :)

Cheers,

K.

Alexandre Garreau

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Jul 12, 2021, 11:20:05 AM7/12/21

to

Le dimanche 11 juillet 2021, 22:58:55 CEST Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> > Whatever, the use of controversial words in publicly visible code is
> > not an indication of a professional attitude. Overdoing juvenile
> > enthusiasm for provocation might lead to a result like with the
> > "weboob" package which got removed from Debian
> >
> > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199
>
> Just took a look at this.
> It was a real time consuming job only to "try" fixing something done
> because a kid had too much free time !
>
> It's really childish to gratify oneself by putting offensive comments in
> a software.

I think it is bad policy of morally judging the frustration, anger or tone
of people because of their oppressors. I think being mad or offensive, at
least not even face-to-face, against your boss, bank, etc. is normal and
sane (at least it is in our country). On the other hand, tone policing
looks a bad idea to me, because it blocks debate while maybe discouraging
people to contribute their ideas u.u

Peter Ehlert

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Jul 12, 2021, 11:50:04 AM7/12/21

to

On 7/12/21 7:39 AM, Kevin N. wrote:
>> Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
>> might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
>> youth.
>
> Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a
> serious one.
> But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its
> gravity with such exaggerated actions.
>
> I for one, have never in my life thought of alcohol when I saw a
> variable named "foobar". That is ... until I saw your post today :) .
>
> What's next? Should we also file a ticket to ban "chocolate bar".
> Or maybe we should ban mathematics completely from computing, since
> the "bar" symbol is a frequently used one there?
>
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Bar.html
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Macron.html

I see the number 80085 has been removed from Maths. It's about time!

Brian

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Jul 12, 2021, 12:00:04 PM7/12/21

to

On Sun 11 Jul 2021 at 21:03:27 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 02:57:24PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > > Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
> > > persuasive argument?

I wrote the previous two sentences. What is gained by not crediting,
acknowledging or referencing a user's post? I wish it wasn't harder
for people to know who is involved in a thread and what they wrote.

> > In my experience, "communicate with the editor" is the second step, the
> > first step being "try to figure out how to communicate with the editor".
>
> I think this was settled: he's a well-known Debian maintainer, after all.

True in this case but, unfortunately, quite a number of editors don't
register a contact point.

--
Brian.

Curt

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Jul 12, 2021, 12:50:05 PM7/12/21

to

On 2021-07-12, Kevin N. <ke...@notscheduled.eu> wrote:
>> Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
>> might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
>> youth.
>
> Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a
> serious one.
> But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its
> gravity with such exaggerated actions.
>

I guess my sense of humor may be a little too dry.

James H. H. Lampert

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Jul 12, 2021, 1:00:05 PM7/12/21

to

I know people who associate the time-honored metasyntactic "foobar" with
the military slang acronym FUBAR.

--
JHHL

Kevin N.

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Jul 12, 2021, 1:10:04 PM7/12/21

to

>>> Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
>>> might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
>>> youth.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a
>> serious one.
>> But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its
>> gravity with such exaggerated actions.
>>

> I guess my sense of humor may be a little too dry.

Well, online communication can be easily misunderstood.

That's why I added the "I still hope that you were joking though :)" part ;)

Cheers,

K.

Thomas Schmitt

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Jul 12, 2021, 1:30:04 PM7/12/21

to

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> > I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
> > might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
> > youth.

Kevin N. wrote:
> I for one, have never in my life thought of alcohol when I saw a variable
> named "foobar". That is ... until I saw your post today :) .

Factually plausible.

But what would be wrong about "foobleep" ?

> Give today's youth a bit of credit. You might discover that they are smarter
> than you think.

That's my main objection against Curt's initiative. Imagine what they
could do to me substantially age-wise challenged person while not being
drunk, drugged, or busy with bleeping.

Peter Ehlert wrote:
> I see the number 80085 has been removed from Maths. It's about time!

There are still lots of legacy calculators around which display it
and also 58008.

Brian Thompson

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Jul 12, 2021, 1:30:05 PM7/12/21

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Jul 12, 2021, 11:30:05 PM7/12/21

to

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 04:45:51PM +0200, Alexandre Garreau wrote:
>
>I think it is bad policy of morally judging the frustration, anger or tone
>of people because of their oppressors.

Oppression has come a long weigh. Apparently, in my country, it is
considered oppressive to be a minority who leeches off of the government
and hard-working taxpayers (who, btw, have never seen a positive return on
their federal taxes) and contributing nothing to society. Oppression
has come a long way from 1912... At least the only countries (that we know
about) with concentration camps is China and NK, but hey, genocide is not
oppressive at all in 2021.

signature.asc

Borden

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Jul 13, 2021, 12:50:04 AM7/13/21

to

> It's only offensive to the people who are offended. Theoretically all
> words are offensive since any word can be offensive to anyone just because

> they deem it so. Censoring (i.e. changing the language) of everything to

> appease everyone 1) isn't possible, 2) is foolish at best, 3) is a
> waste of everyone's time, and 4) creates a power hungry mob of zealots
> looking to dismantle any word they deem offensive (e.g. paper machete).

This is poor reasoning. "Foolish at best" and "waste of everyone's time" are personal opinions, not arguments. "Isn't possible" is a straw man argument. "Creates a power hungry mob of zealots looking to dismantle any word they deem offensive" is supported only with weak anecdotal evidence.

Aside from its logical fallacies, this argument fails because it lacks any sort of altruism or empathy. It ultimately boils down to "I don't care what anybody else's experience is," which is the reasoning of antisocial personality disorders (per the DSM).

So I'm going to as persuasive here as I would be convincing a colour-blind person that green and red are different colours. I'll try nevertheless. Before trivialising someone's feelings, perhaps expend some effort learning their struggles and what led them to find something painful. Try, if you can, to imagine being in their position. It's possible that one's brain is physically incapable of doing so, those people exist. In which case, I recommend staying out of ethical discussions in the same way that colour-blind people should stay out jobs requiring colour recognition.

Thomas Schmitt

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:10:04 AM7/13/21

to

Hi,

Gregory Smith wrote to me:
> You're a bunch of fa*gots.

I think this asterisk is an insufficient surrogate for a classical "bleep".
But thank you for the plural. This enhances my self-esteem.

> Working for free.

Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.

> "Professionalism" has no place in hobbies,

If i would not show due diligence when developing, then only clueless people
would use my software. A very important part of this work is to accept
reports about own mistakes and to fix them in the best possible way.
Thinking ahead is a must. There is few excuse for not anticipating problems
which the users might reasonably perceive.

> white ret*rd.

Does that asterisk stand for an "a" or for an "u" ?
(I'd understand the "u"-case as accusation of coprophagia. But the internet
has it as a slightly different meme.)

You see ? "Bleep" is much better than "*".
Any ambivalence appears intentional and opens a wide range of
interpretations even beyond the malevolent intentions of the writer.

I hope to have helped you with your articulation problems.

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:20:04 AM7/13/21

to

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 06:32:37AM +0200, Borden wrote:
> > It's only offensive to the people who are offended [...]

> This is poor reasoning.

Or... actually no reasoning at all.

> "Foolish at best" and "waste of everyone's time" are personal
> opinions, not arguments. "Isn't possible" is a straw man argument.

Agreed.

> "Creates a power hungry mob of zealots looking to dismantle any
> word they deem offensive" is supported only with weak anecdotal
> evidence.

I think it's worse. This is the classical "deshumanize your enemy"
antipattern.

Cheers
- t

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to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:30:05 AM7/13/21

to

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:01:20AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Gregory Smith wrote to me:
> > You're a bunch of fa*gots.
>
> I think this asterisk is an insufficient surrogate for a classical "bleep".
> But thank you for the plural. This enhances my self-esteem.
>
>
> > Working for free.
>
> Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.

Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work... done for
them [1].

Not that this enhances my love for Microsoft, mind you. It rather
confirms my initial gut feeling to stay out of Githubs way wherever
I can.

Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot
- t

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Reco

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Jul 13, 2021, 5:00:04 AM7/13/21

to

Hi.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:20:12AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Working for free.
> >
> > Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.
>
> Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work... done for
> them [1].

Nothing had changed in this regard. Every software corporation always
adored enthusiasts doing their job for them. No exceptions.

> Not that this enhances my love for Microsoft, mind you. It rather
> confirms my initial gut feeling to stay out of Githubs way wherever
> I can.

Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
regardless of whom is controlling them.

You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
always is. It's not that hard anyway.

Reco

john doe

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Jul 13, 2021, 5:30:05 AM7/13/21

to

On 7/13/2021 10:54 AM, Reco wrote:
>
> Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> regardless of whom is controlling them.
>
> You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
> always is. It's not that hard anyway.
>

So the bottom line is that you need to have a server to host this
yourself but what do you suggest if you don't have the gears/capacity to
do it yourself (VPS ...)?

For the sake of clarity, I'm talking here about the logistical aspect(s)
of not relying on GB/SF/...

--
John Doe

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 13, 2021, 5:30:05 AM7/13/21

to

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:22:48AM +0200, john doe wrote:
> On 7/13/2021 10:54 AM, Reco wrote:
> >
> >Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> >non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> >regardless of whom is controlling them.
> >
> >You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
> >always is. It's not that hard anyway.
> >
>
> So the bottom line is that you need to have a server to host this
> yourself but what do you suggest if you don't have the gears/capacity to
> do it yourself (VPS ...)?

(1) There /are/ alternatives to github (a couple of them)
(2) My post was more targeting at github running advanced
machine learning (GPT3) over all the free code hosted
by it. To offer a service telling people how to code
(talk funny feedback loop).

Point (2) was for me the "aaah, that's why Microsoft threw 7B on the table
to buy GH".

Cheers
- t

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Reco

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:00:05 AM7/13/21

to

Hi.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:22:48AM +0200, john doe wrote:

> On 7/13/2021 10:54 AM, Reco wrote:
> > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> >
> > You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
> > always is. It's not that hard anyway.
>
> So the bottom line is that you need to have a server to host this
> yourself but what do you suggest if you don't have the gears/capacity to
> do it yourself (VPS ...)?

I suggest them to learn it and deal with it. Quitting software
development is also an option (and in the case of certain programming
languages it's a preferred one), though, there's much more so called
"software developers" that the world really needs anyway.

Relinquishing control is also an option, but there will be consequences.
For instance, that link that tomas had provided. Or all those recent
stories about Github and complying with DMCA.
I'm not saying that the consequences will be there immediately (because
it's never *that* easy), but certainly they will be hard (or impossible)
to anticipate.

Reco

to...@tuxteam.de

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:10:05 AM7/13/21

to

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:00:34PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,

[...]

> (Nevertheless, one doesn't need a worldwide git repo service to train
> an AI by examples of free software.

Read on GPT3. Even if you throw away the marketing-foo (of which there
is copious abundance), it's... scary.

It doesn't help that Microsoft has bought "exclusive" use of it [1]
doesn't help (with my feelings on it, at least).

> It would be a funny experiment to throw a few hundred code snippets of a
> free software project into Visual Bleep and then to look how similar the
> result is to the original.)

We're talking a few more than a few hundred here ;-)

cheers
[1] https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/09/23/1008729/openai-is-giving-microsoft-exclusive-access-to-its-gpt-3-language-model/
- t

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Thomas Schmitt

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:10:05 AM7/13/21

to

Hi,

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work...

That's the problem with living after the future has already passed.
Even my enemies aren't what they used to be.

> done for them [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot]

Ahhh. Some things don't change, though. Thanks for rescuing my postjudices.

(Nevertheless, one doesn't need a worldwide git repo service to train
an AI by examples of free software.

It would be a funny experiment to throw a few hundred code snippets of a
free software project into Visual Bleep and then to look how similar the
result is to the original.)

Brian Thompson

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:00:05 AM7/13/21

to

On 0713, Borden wrote:
> "I don't care what anybody else's experience is," which is the
> reasoning of antisocial personality disorders (per the DSM).

Didn't know you were a doctor. Good one there.

signature.asc

Brian Thompson

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:20:05 AM7/13/21

to

On 0713, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>and I feel annoyed by the size of your belly
>button, you seem pretty much thinking life is centered around yourself.

That's a funny statement coming from you.

>Don't want to be a dream breaker but it's not the case, same as the way
>America's empire is going down and raging war like all declining empire,
>your dream is over.

And I'm the psychopath. :D

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Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:20:05 AM7/13/21

to

Hi,

On 2021-07-13 6:55 a.m., Brian Thompson wrote:
> On 0713, Borden wrote:
>> "I don't care what anybody else's experience is," which is the
>> reasoning of antisocial personality disorders (per the DSM).
>
> Didn't know you were a doctor. Good one there.
>

Don't need to be a doctor to know how to read... But hey, because that's
the subject. I'm a MD... and I feel annoyed by the size of your belly

button, you seem pretty much thinking life is centered around yourself.

Don't want to be a dream breaker but it's not the case, same as the way
America's empire is going down and raging war like all declining empire,
your dream is over.

--
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

OpenPGP_signature

Celejar

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Jul 13, 2021, 8:10:05 AM7/13/21

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:54:43 +0300
Reco <recov...@enotuniq.net> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:20:12AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > Working for free.
> > >
> > > Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.
> >
> > Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work... done for
> > them [1].
>
> Nothing had changed in this regard. Every software corporation always
> adored enthusiasts doing their job for them. No exceptions.
>
>
> > Not that this enhances my love for Microsoft, mind you. It rather
> > confirms my initial gut feeling to stay out of Githubs way wherever
> > I can.
>
> Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> regardless of whom is controlling them.

What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that some
of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly is
gratis.

> You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
> always is. It's not that hard anyway.

If you maintain a local copy of your code and just push it to Github
for serving it publicly (which is what I do, and what I assume most
developers do), you haven't lost control of your code - if / when the
host does anything you don't like, you take the existing code and make
it available elsewhere, and stop posting future code to the offending
service. (It'll still have a copy of any existing code, of course - but
that's inevitable with FLOSS software regardless of where you host it.)

Celejar

Brian Thompson

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Jul 13, 2021, 8:10:05 AM7/13/21

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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 08:01:58AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>If you maintain a local copy of your code and just push it to Github
>for serving it publicly (which is what I do, and what I assume most
>developers do), you haven't lost control of your code - if / when the
>host does anything you don't like, you take the existing code and make
>it available elsewhere, and stop posting future code to the offending
>service. (It'll still have a copy of any existing code, of course - but
>that's inevitable with FLOSS software regardless of where you host it.)

Agreed. Plus, as long as you have a proper license, like GPLv3, then you
should be good to host your code on a provider like GitHub, or at least
use that host as a mirror.

signature.asc

Reco

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Jul 13, 2021, 9:10:05 AM7/13/21

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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 08:01:58AM -0400, Celejar wrote:

> > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> > regardless of whom is controlling them.
>
> What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that some
> of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly is
> gratis.

You do not pay for these services, yet they provide them to you and
everyone else (with certain exclusions).
Guess who is the product here? The answer is - you are the product.
Payment involving money is not the only kind of payment that you can
make today.

> > You need to be in control of your code - *you* host it. Always was,
> > always is. It's not that hard anyway.
>
> If you maintain a local copy of your code and just push it to Github
> for serving it publicly (which is what I do, and what I assume most
> developers do), you haven't lost control of your code

And then you take out your Github repository in compliance with DMCA
claim (bonus points for false DMCA claim).
Whoops - suddenly you've lost a chunk of your userbase, possibly
- some of your contributors, bug reports, CI/CD pipeline, and that's a
non-exhaustive list.

> - if / when the host does anything you don't like, you take the
> existing code and make it available elsewhere, and stop posting future
> code to the offending service. (It'll still have a copy of any
> existing code, of course - but that's inevitable with FLOSS software
> regardless of where you host it.)

But the "code" aka git repository is not the only thing that's provided
by such companies, and the temptation to use these other services (that
are also provided "free" of charge) is way too great for the most.

You've kept your code in the scenario above, but what good did it gave
you?

I don't argue that there are "safe" ways of using these services
(aforementioned "code dump" is one of them). Problem is - if the risks
of using these services need to be explained to the participants of
debian-user - it's not possible to explain the same to the happy GitHub
crowd.

Reco

Celejar

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Jul 13, 2021, 10:20:05 AM7/13/21

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:08:53 +0300
Reco <recov...@enotuniq.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 08:01:58AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> >
> > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that some
> > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly is
> > gratis.
>
> You do not pay for these services, yet they provide them to you and
> everyone else (with certain exclusions).
> Guess who is the product here? The answer is - you are the product.
> Payment involving money is not the only kind of payment that you can
> make today.

I think that's an unreasonable definition of gratis and non-gratis. If
a FLOSS dev gets an ego boost, or even some sort of spiritual
satisfaction, from people using his software, does that mean it's
non-gratis?

Greg Wooledge

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:00:05 PM7/13/21

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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> May I suggest we get back on-topic.

There's a topic? I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
even get back to it with a compass.

> Greg Wooledge (he who has
> disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> an interest in, That's what I would do.

I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say. Also apparently
any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk. Or maybe it's just
when I stand up for myself, who knows.

I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
pages for stretch and buster. We'll see what happens next, I guess.

Alexandre Garreau

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:20:05 PM7/13/21

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Signal is not a lucrative company (yet… who knows, looking at their bad
faith), but you’re right there, because since they’re centralized and
depending on proprietary OSes, you indeed grant power by using them. But
Signal is not so powerful, so it’s not a so big problem, it’s only sad
given their stated goal, and its ideological proximity with software
freedom and net decentralization…

Matrix is meant to be decentralized, so network effect shouldn’t apply.
But maybe your message is a critic of good faith of matrix people and
their network, because of instability (hence unstandardness) of their
protocol, asymetry in their gateways (remembering a bit discord…), big
asymetries in development of their clients, official non-free client, and
total (wilingful?) blindness about existing implementations such as xmpp
u.u

Same can be argued about Twitter, Facebook, etc. One one hand, they’re
gratis of charges, no money is required to enter, on the other hand “if
it’s gratis, you are the product”, and indeed these are companies that
make actual money. Big money, GAFAM are among the richest in the world u.u
And Twitter is pretty powerful (even and especially politically) after
all.

> Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
> considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!

No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social
network. Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative. Currently nobody can get
*power* from it.

rhkr...@gmail.com

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:40:05 PM7/13/21

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On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 11:27:03 AM Stefan Monnier wrote:
> BTW, for those who don't want to run their own server, there are still
> other reasons to avoid Github: my rule is to try and opt for the
> underdog so as to foster competition.

+1

Alexandre Garreau

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:40:05 PM7/13/21

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Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 16:09:50 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:08:53 +0300
>
> Reco <recov...@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 08:01:58AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from
> > > > them
> > > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> > >
> > > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that
> > > some
> > > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly
> > > is
> > > gratis.
> >
> > You do not pay for these services, yet they provide them to you and
> > everyone else (with certain exclusions).
> > Guess who is the product here? The answer is - you are the product.
> > Payment involving money is not the only kind of payment that you can
> > make today.
>
> I think that's an unreasonable definition of gratis and non-gratis. If
> a FLOSS dev gets an ego boost, or even some sort of spiritual
> satisfaction, from people using his software, does that mean it's
> non-gratis?

An ego-boost doesn’t grant power, that is, possibility of action of your
will on the actions of others.

But github as a platform provides a great deal of power to microsoft.
They litterally own your data. Maybe not your programs, but maybe all
your metadata + what was listed later (bugreports, etc.).

The mail you answer to sadly didn’t explain concretely what is the
payement, and how you can make money from it. The answer is: selling
personal data. Both what you output, what comes from you, and what is
inputted to you, what to see. Knowing what you say, what you see, what
you like to see, and deciding it sells very profitably nowadays, agueably
more than oil.

Brian

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Jul 13, 2021, 3:50:05 PM7/13/21

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On Tue 13 Jul 2021 at 14:59:27 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > May I suggest we get back on-topic.
>
> There's a topic? I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
> even get back to it with a compass.

Your OP was important and interesting.

> > Greg Wooledge (he who has
> > disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> > an interest in, That's what I would do.
>
> I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.

Fair enough.

> Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.

That's not correct. And it is not my view. I would have gone about
the issue in a different way, but that is just me. It is of legitimate
concern.

> Or maybe it's just
> when I stand up for myself, who knows.

I think your reaction does point to a difficiency in wiki management.

> I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
> pages for stretch and buster. We'll see what happens next, I guess

I have not looked yet but that is what I would do.

--
Brian.
>

Brian

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Jul 13, 2021, 4:00:04 PM7/13/21

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You are apparently well up in this field. Is there a particular
udderdog you would recommend?

--
Brian.

Joe

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Jul 13, 2021, 4:30:04 PM7/13/21

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:31:33 +0200
Alexandre Garreau <gale...@galex-713.eu> wrote:

>
> The mail you answer to sadly didn’t explain concretely what is the
> payement, and how you can make money from it. The answer is: selling
> personal data. Both what you output, what comes from you, and what
> is inputted to you, what to see. Knowing what you say, what you see,
> what you like to see, and deciding it sells very profitably nowadays,
> agueably more than oil.
>
>

But is it all a fraud? OK, I know I'm not typical, but I don't notice
advertisements. I use various means to block most, but even the ones I
see simply don't register. I don't generally buy things advertised,
partly because I don't want to subsidise the whole advertising thing,
but partly because what gets advertised is what the manufacturers find
hardest to shift in adequate numbers.

Good products are bought repeatedly, and people tell each other about
them. They don't need advertising. Back when we had TV advertisements
for beer, it was always the rubbish beers that got the publicity.
Courage would advertise John Courage, their poorest beer. They never
advertised Directors', or the bottled Russian Stout, or Bulldog ale.

As for 'targetted advertising', I've never seen any. When I notice the
ads around the sides of web pages, none of them are aimed at me, and
very few are aimed at anyone outside the US. So is this obsession with
collecting personal data on people actually paying off?

--
Joe

rhkr...@gmail.com

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Jul 13, 2021, 5:50:05 PM7/13/21

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No, sorry. I was speaking more in generalities, I almost always try to
support the underdog.

(The last time I was somewhat actively involved in development (~2018), the
developer I was working with chose to use github and I did not argue about it,
and am not sure I would have at that time -- not sure who owned it then.)

Michael Lange

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:30:04 PM7/13/21

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Hi,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:25:17 +0100
Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:

(...)

> Back when we had TV advertisements
> for beer, it was always the rubbish beers that got the publicity.

here (Germany) we still have those TV ads for beer, and I can assure you
that the advertised brands (its not up to me to decide whether they are
rubbish or not) are the ones that are available virtually everywhere, so
I believe that it is safe to assume that they are also the brands that
sell.
So yes, unfortunately at least in some cases advertisements apparently
pay.

> As for 'targetted advertising', I've never seen any. When I notice the
> ads around the sides of web pages, none of them are aimed at me

The same here. So maybe I have developed some skills obscuring my
"profile" to "them", or (maybe more likely) I am just too dumb to realize
that those ads *are* in fact targeted at me :-)

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- . .-.. --- -. --. .- -. -.. .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Vulcans believe peace should not depend on force.
-- Amanda, "Journey to Babel", stardate 3842.3

Michael Lange

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:40:04 PM7/13/21

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Hi,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:59:27 -0400
Greg Wooledge <gr...@wooledge.org> wrote:

> Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.

be asssured, that is not the case.

Best regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- . .-.. --- -. --. .- -. -.. .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Vulcans never bluff.
-- Spock, "The Doomsday Machine", stardate 4202.1

Steve McIntyre

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:50:04 PM7/13/21

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Brian T wrote:
>
>^ This. I concur 100%. Politically correct language, or politics in
>general, have no place in software.

>--
>Best regards,
>
>Brian T
>
>Coronavirus is a scam.
>9/11 was an inside job.

Please tell me that you're being ironic here, considering the garbage
in your signature...

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
"We're the technical experts. We were hired so that management could
ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs." -- Mike Andrews

Celejar

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:20:05 PM7/13/21

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:09:32 +0200

Network effect applies since the more people use it, the more valuable
and useful the network becomes, and the more difficult and inconvenient
it is for everyone to move to another network.

Please note that none of this is a criticism of Signal or Matrix - I'm
just making a reductio ad absurdum argument against the idea that
systems that involve a network effect should not be considered "gratis."

> But maybe your message is a critic of good faith of matrix people and
> their network, because of instability (hence unstandardness) of their
> protocol, asymetry in their gateways (remembering a bit discord…), big
> asymetries in development of their clients, official non-free client, and
> total (wilingful?) blindness about existing implementations such as xmpp
> u.u

As above, I am making no criticism of Matrix or Signal (here, although
I've criticized Signal elsewhere, on other grounds).

> Same can be argued about Twitter, Facebook, etc. One one hand, they’re
> gratis of charges, no money is required to enter, on the other hand “if
> it’s gratis, you are the product”, and indeed these are companies that
> make actual money. Big money, GAFAM are among the richest in the world u.u
> And Twitter is pretty powerful (even and especially politically) after
> all.
>
> > Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
> > considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!
>
> No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social
> network. Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative. Currently nobody can get
> *power* from it.

I'm not sure what you mean by non-lucrative, but even though
there's no money involved, that does not mean that there's no power.
The power to decide what software to include in the distribution and
what to exclude is certainly power. Debian has an elaborate
constitution, with all kinds of rules, and the organization has
considerable power over the distribution. This is similar, in my mind,
to the power that an organization like Facebook has over its network.

In theory Facebook users can go somewhere else, but in practice, this
can be quite difficult. Similarly, if I don't like decisions Debian
takes, I'm free to find a different distribution. In practice, this is a
non-trivial step.

Of course, the power of Debian concerns me much less than Facebook's
power, since I am much (vastly) happier with the ideals and transparency
of Debian than that of Facebook.

Again, I am certainly not claiming that Debian and Facebook (for
example) are remotely equivalent institutions. I am merely making the
reductio ad absurdum argument that defining terms like "gratis" as
broadly as some in this thread seem to do implies that Debian's
offerings aren't gratis.

Celejar

Celejar

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:20:05 PM7/13/21

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Payment is not the same thing as power.

> But github as a platform provides a great deal of power to microsoft.
> They litterally own your data. Maybe not your programs, but maybe all
> your metadata + what was listed later (bugreports, etc.).

As does Signal, etc.

> The mail you answer to sadly didn’t explain concretely what is the
> payement, and how you can make money from it. The answer is: selling
> personal data. Both what you output, what comes from you, and what is
> inputted to you, what to see. Knowing what you say, what you see, what
> you like to see, and deciding it sells very profitably nowadays, agueably
> more than oil.

Celejar

Andrei POPESCU

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Jul 14, 2021, 12:10:05 AM7/14/21

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As far as I understand Gitlab is the only comparable alternative,
preferably self-hosted (like Debian's Salsa).

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

signature.asc

Jeremy Ardley

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Jul 14, 2021, 1:00:04 AM7/14/21

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AWS has a permanently free GIT repository for small projects (under 5
developers) and limited storage requirements

https://aws.amazon.com/codecommit/

Jeremy

OpenPGP_signature

Joe

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Jul 14, 2021, 2:50:04 AM7/14/21

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:17:37 -0400
Celejar <cel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:09:32 +0200
> Alexandre Garreau <gale...@galex-713.eu> wrote:
>

> >
> > No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social
> > network. Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative. Currently nobody can
> > get *power* from it.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by non-lucrative, but even though
> there's no money involved, that does not mean that there's no power.
> The power to decide what software to include in the distribution and
> what to exclude is certainly power. Debian has an elaborate
> constitution, with all kinds of rules, and the organization has
> considerable power over the distribution. This is similar, in my mind,
> to the power that an organization like Facebook has over its network.
>

I think in this context that 'power' means power over the real world,
not just within a medium. It is unlikely that Debian can swing an
election result. Debian has rules, but not over what people are
permitted to discuss.

--
Joe

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Jul 14, 2021, 8:10:05 AM7/14/21

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I concur completely with your distinction, and I agree that it's an
important one. The original topic of the conversation, however, was
Github and friends, and I doubt that Github can swing an election
result, either.

Celejar

Andrew M.A. Cater

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Jul 14, 2021, 9:00:05 AM7/14/21

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For what it's worth - I had a check on IRC in debian-www

The wiki isn't as tightly policed and is more of a free for all: if you see
something that's wrong, you can change it. There's a creative tension between
what should sit on the wiki / what should be on www.debian.org.

I also had a quick chat with Paul on IRC

He'd forgotten about the change: it was that long ago. He did make the point
that it seemed sensible to centre it on SourcesList for him: it's no huge
matter since anything can be changed.

Each set of release notes also has the sources.list stanzas in it, I think,
and if you're coming from updating older releases, you'd be looking to the
next set of release notes anyway to see what's changed, ideally.

There Is No Cabal - this isn't quite Wikipedia with policies, edit wars
and badged issues police, at least as far as the wiki's concerned.
www.d.o is a bit tighter - not least because well-intentioned edits cause
havoc with the good folk who do translations and there's a defined process
so that they don't end up having to re-edit tens of pages for a tiny fix
on a URL, for example. [Been there, caused that, got the T shirt]

This list has a bunch of varying experience and expertise - all of it is
valuable and valued.

All the very best, as ever, to all

Andy Cater

Reco

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Jul 14, 2021, 9:10:04 AM7/14/21

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Hi.

Github gathers personal information, Bing uses it to influence an
election via search results manipulation. It's real easy if you have the
same owner of both services.

Reco

Greg Wooledge

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Jul 14, 2021, 9:40:05 AM7/14/21

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On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:53:00PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> For what it's worth - I had a check on IRC in debian-www
>
> The wiki isn't as tightly policed and is more of a free for all: if you see
> something that's wrong, you can change it. There's a creative tension between
> what should sit on the wiki / what should be on www.debian.org.
>
> I also had a quick chat with Paul on IRC
>
> He'd forgotten about the change: it was that long ago. He did make the point
> that it seemed sensible to centre it on SourcesList for him: it's no huge
> matter since anything can be changed.

OK. Thank you for all of that.

I don't know how others approach it, but for me, the wiki is the place
where end users like myself can contribute with our own knowledge
and experience. www.debian.org is the "official" information source,
centrally controlled, curated, and off limits for the end users.

The two sites borrow from each other as needed. This is fine. There's
no need to prevent duplication of content. In a worst case scenario,
if one of the two sites is unavailable for some reason, the other one
is a backup. In more ordinary situations, the two sites have different
organizational structures and different focuses, so specific pieces of
information may be easier to find on one site than on the other. That's
also fine.

> Each set of release notes also has the sources.list stanzas in it, I think,

Not that I can find. And I just looked.

> and if you're coming from updating older releases, you'd be looking to the
> next set of release notes anyway to see what's changed, ideally.

As a regular on the #debian IRC channel, I can assure you that "what
do I put in sources.list for ___ release" really *is* one of the most
frequently asked questions.

There are several reasons for this, and I don't claim to know all of
them, but one of the biggest reasons is that a large number of Debian
installations do not provide a working Internet sources.list file. Perhaps
because the network interface(s) were not working during installation,
perhaps because of missing wifi firmware, yadda yadda yadda. The point
is, people *need* this information. Having multiple redundant copies of
it is helpful.

Another big reason only applies to the older releases. "I have an old
server running ___ and its sources.list doesn't work any more. What do I
use?" This is unbelievably common, and it obviously isn't going to be
covered by reading the wheezy (or whatever version's) release notes.

> There Is No Cabal - this isn't quite Wikipedia with policies, edit wars
> and badged issues police, at least as far as the wiki's concerned.
> www.d.o is a bit tighter - not least because well-intentioned edits cause
> havoc with the good folk who do translations and there's a defined process
> so that they don't end up having to re-edit tens of pages for a tiny fix
> on a URL, for example. [Been there, caused that, got the T shirt]

OK. I'll admit that I may have been over-sensitive, because I have been
on the receiving end of an extremely vicious wiki cabal in the past, with
a different community and a different wiki. So I may have extrapolated
patterns that don't exist, here, from a single incident.