what keyboard do you use?

[Lee]

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?

I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee

[Gremlin]

The one I like to use

[ghe2001]

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On Friday, February 2nd, 2024 at 6:25 PM, Lee <ler...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+the+USA+in+1845&safe=active&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=635&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ-9bvs93RAhXJ7YMKHXzWDkIQsAQIGw#safe=active&tbm=isch&q=map+of+the+USA+in+1848&imgrc=GUh1lSV_dYk9KM%3A

>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

Cherry (available at Amazon). I've used them for a 25 or 30 years, and I've never had one fail. Or even think about it.

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[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 02 Feb 19:26 -0600, Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
adapter so I gave up on them. The Lenovo KU-0225 is a good keyboard
with the "standard" extra keys that are useful in some desktops. It is
full size and quiet.

My main keyboard is a daskeyboard I bought several years ago with the
Cherry key switches It is thick so you might not like it and it is
loud. It has the same number of keys as the Lenovo, 104, I think. This
one was not cheap while the Lenovo was considerably less expensive.

- Nate

--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:42 PM Gremlin <scott-...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

On 2/2/24 20:25, Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I have a Nulea RT02 Ergonomic Keyboard. You can get one at Amazon for $45. I like it alot! The two USB ports on the keyboard are handy.
. 

 

> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)
>
> Thanks
> Lee
>
>

The one I like to use

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

[Joe Pfeiffer]

A Logitech ergonomic keyboard that mimics the Microsoft Natural but,
sadly, has been out of production for many years. I don't know what I'll
do when it eventually dies, but I expect it'll be expensive...

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model
name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take
away much more from a keyboard:

https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
wonderful.

Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
and heavy.

I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
desk, which I do a lot.

Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very
personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

/ralph

[Stefan Monnier]

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

My favorites are the old Thinkpad USB UltraNav travel keyboards
(http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/31P9490.jpg). They even
come with a 2-port USB hub so you can connect a mouse directly to them
(and/or a security key, ... tho you can't go crazy because it has very
low power limits (and it's USB-1 only): no flash drive, for instance).
But they're becoming hard to find.

I also have one of those cheap 78-key compact&thin keyboards and, beside
the lack of "page up"/"page down" keys (and of course the lack of
a trackpoint), I really like it. Mine is a "no brand" model, but
it's fairly similar to the JLab Go wireless keyboard
(https://www.jlab.com/products/jlab-go-keyboard?variant=39457511407688),
except with a cable so I don't need to worry about batteries or
bluetooth connection.


Stefan

[songbird]

Lee wrote:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

...

a Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard. my
previous keyboard was starting to miss key presses and
duplicating others. since i also needed a new mouse it
was a day to get a refresh. paid about $80 for it.

works fine, did not install any software to mess with
the settings i just use the manual key presses to set
it after booting (i don't want lights flashing or moving
when i'm typing and i'm ok with not seeing the keys most
of the time so i turn the lights way down).

it is a little stiff and very quiet compared to what
i'm used to but it's working fine.

since they keys are partially clear to let light
through i'm not worried about wearing the keycaps off.
if i get 3 years out of it i'll be happy. i seem to
go from 1-3 years most of the time before something
breaks.

it is not light, it is not thin. i perch it on my
lap as i type, it has to be flat and kept flet by some-
thing better than plastic to not mess up the stuff
inside (based upon previous keyboards that failed due
to plastic flexing too much over time).

so we'll see how this one works out longer term.


songbird

[David Christensen]

The IBM Model M is the standard to which all other computer keyboards
are compared. The buckling spring design was created to provide a
tactile experience comparable to an IBM Seletric typewriter, to support
professional typists in an office environment. I used and loved the
Model M back in the day, but the noise gets tiresome and any persons not
protected by a soundproof wall will hate you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard


Unicomp makes modernized variants:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD


I believe I have read postings by people who installed O-rings on their
Model M's to reduce the noise.


Another reader mentioned Cherry. You can get complete keyboards from
Cherry and you can get keyboards from other manufacturers with Cherry MX
mechanical switches. Make sure you understand the various colors and
your typing needs/ preferences:

https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/


I have been using a Keyed Up Labs ES-87 for the past several years. I
am a pounder and have worn out or broken many keyboards, but the KUL-87
and its Cherry MX Clear switches have withstood me. The noise level is
tolerable when typing at full speed, but you can slow down and type
half-stroke when you want minimal noise:

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/6625/keyed-up-labs-kul-es-87-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard-review/index.html


The bottom of the barrel are keyboards with rubber dome switches. If
you do any serious typing, you and your fingers will not be happy. I
use leftover dome switch keyboards on headless servers to prevent
missing keyboard errors and to perform minimal sysadmin chores (entering
encryption passphrases during boot, logging in as root, restarting,
powering off, etc.).


I have noted that my older PS/2 keyboards and/or mice are not recognized
by the motherboard firmware Setup utility on my newer Dell workstations
and/or servers with PS/2 ports. And, PS/2 keyboards and mice are not
hot-pluggable. So, unless you have some specific PS/2 need (gamer with
large N-key rollover?), I suggest USB.


David

[jeremy ardley]

Lee wrote:
>> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get
positive feedback on key strokes.

For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting

Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives
a loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke.

Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the
tactile feedback.

I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have
struck a key.

As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last
a year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.?

You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful,
though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green
or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you
strike it.

[Marco Moock]

Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:09:09 -0600
schrieb Nate Bargmann <n0...@n0nb.us>:

> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.

They need more power that normal keyboards, so not every converter
works.

I have a mainboard from 2019 wit PS/2 and the model M works fine.

[Marco Moock]

Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:25:09 -0500
schrieb Lee <ler...@gmail.com>:

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

IBM Model M.
They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB.

[songbird]

jeremy ardley wrote:
...

> You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful,
> though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green
> or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you
> strike it.

you can change the light show by pressing various key
combinations or you can use software to do it for you
when the machine boots. i decided to just use the key
presses and avoid having yet more packages installed.

the light show i prefer for most typing is the one
which lights up the key just a little when it is
pressed. so it is not too bright as to be distracting
but it does provide some feedback. you can adjust how
bright you want it to be in five increments. i leave
it at one. i rarely need to see all of the keys at
one time. when getting going for the day i have an id
and password so that is when i want all the keys visible
- after that it rarely matters, but it is easy enough to
change it back and forth.

if you want to have some blinkin' lights you can put
on some nice effects when you press keys, at night it
can look like a Christmas tree. :) just to show someone.
i find it too distracting for normal operation.


songbird

[Dan Ritter]

As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.

Brands which have proven reliable to me:

Keychron
Ducky
CoolerMaster's MasterKeys series

-dsr-

[Eric S Fraga]

I have two: a Kinesis Advantage 2 and a Corsair gaming mechanical
keyboard, both USB connected. I use the latter almost exclusively and
love it: the feel of the mechanical keys, the sound of those keys, and
the keyboard lighting. I seldom use the Kinesis: just could not get
used to it.

--
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 30.0.50 2023-09-14) on Debian 12.2

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:57 PM Russell L. Harris wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
> >which keyboard do you like and why?
>

> CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 (Purchased several years ago; in daily use since.)
> Excellent mechanical quality of the keyswitch. Keyswitch plungers
> which start sticking (high resistance upon depression) is the biggest
> problem I have found. The next-greatest problem is intermittent
> contact of key switch contacts. Both problems are maddening for the
> touch typist.

OK - good to know. I am a touch typist, so I guess I'm giving that one a pass.
Thanks
Lee

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 9:09 PM Nate Bargmann wrote:
>
> * On 2024 02 Feb 19:26 -0600, Lee wrote:
> > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> >
> > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> > about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't
> > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> >
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them. The Lenovo KU-0225 is a good keyboard
> with the "standard" extra keys that are useful in some desktops. It is
> full size and quiet.
>
> My main keyboard is a daskeyboard I bought several years ago with the
> Cherry key switches It is thick so you might not like it and it is
> loud. It has the same number of keys as the Lenovo, 104, I think. This
> one was not cheap while the Lenovo was considerably less expensive.

Full size and quiet are good qualities :) Tall not so much.. the
Logitech that I pulled out of the closet and think is too high is less
than 1 inch high. The Lenovo is listed as 1.34 inches, so that's
probably not for me.
Thick and loud is a no, so I'll pass on the daskeyboard.

Thanks
Lee

[Michael Kjörling]

On 3 Feb 2024 08:34 +0100, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco Moock):

>> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
>> which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> IBM Model M.
> They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB.

I was going to suggest that too, but OP in Feb 3 14:31 UTC dismissed
daskeyboard because loud isn't an option, so I guess that makes a
Model M an even worse choice.

Probably can't beat it for durability, though.

Whichever keyboard you go for, I do recommend to make sure that either
it's hermetically sealed (unlikely...) or that the keys are easily
removable and replaceable for cleaning. Because no matter how clean
you try to keep it, grime eventually does get in and start interfering
with the mechanism.

--
Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Dan Ritter wrote on 03/02/2024 13:16:
<snip>

> As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.
>

<snip>
Logitech now has, with and w/o ten key block: search for "Logitech MX
Mechanical". They are wireless with USB adapter and have a configurable
mono-color key light.
I myself use the MX Mechanical Mini. Can be configured from Linux with solaar.

Regards,
Jörg.

[Lee]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 10:51 PM Ralph Aichinger wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
> favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
> are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model
> name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
> prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
> time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
> for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take
> away much more from a keyboard:
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

That looks nice for a tablet or something that you'll be carrying around.

> And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
> of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
> wonderful.

Logitech seems to be quitting the corded keyboard business :( I go to
their keyboard selection site, select full sized with numpad and
corded and only two keyboards show up - the one I pulled out of the
closet that I think is too tall and a K-845. I don't have a whole lot
of luck with batteries or wireless, so a cord is a must for me.

> Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
> price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
> and heavy.
>
> I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
> to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
> thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
> desk, which I do a lot.
>
> Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very
> personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

As I'm seeing :)

Thanks
Lee

[Russell L. Harris]

On Sat, Feb 03, 2024 at 09:10:49AM -0500, Lee wrote:

I am saying that these are the biggest problems I have found with
keyboards in general, and that the CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 does not have
these problems. If you are a touch typist, focus upon the quality of
the keyswitch. Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch. Buy Cherry. RLH

[Roger Price]

On Sat, 3 Feb 2024, Russell L. Harris wrote:

>>> On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
>>> >which keyboard do you like and why?

> ... Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch. Buy Cherry. RLH

I bought a Cherry MX 3000 USB. In use permanently in a very dusty environment
next to a wood stove. No problems. Roger

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> [...]

> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> adapter so I gave up on them.

They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has
something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research
and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
keyboards.

Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.

I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
better than these buckling spring ones.


[1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

[hw]

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> [...]

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

It comes down to your personal preference and on how much you're
willing to pay for a good keybard. I'm using [1].

I'm using it because I'm finding these buckling spring keyboards the
best variant to type on. I've never found anything better in the last
40 years.

They also have the advantage that they have a decent size not only for
the keys and their spacing, but also for the housing which is designed
so you can put stuff like pencils on it.

The ones from IBM are so old that they're usually somewhat worn out.
They also have become difficult to get and expensive. Unless you can
find a new old stock and are willing to pay for it, you're better off
getting one from Unicomp.

I even got a new Model M a couple years ago for a steal, and I still
have it. I like the Unicomp better because of the extra keys without
which I wouldn't know what to do, and it feels a little better to type
on than the Model M.

As an alternative, you could look for a Cherry G80. Apparently they
don't make them anymore (And I wouldn't buy anything of what they show
on their web site now.). It's a pity since they were acceptable
keyboards if you like their switches and if you could get one for a
decent price. They were built cheaply and somewhat wobbly, and I
don't like that cheapness at all, but the money was in the switches.
When you have one have on your desk for typing it's fine. The
switches are good (though I don't particularly like them, but that's
personal preference) and not in any way cheap or wobbly.

I would like Outemu switches way better than the Cherry ones if the
Outemu ones weren't so wobbly. They give me nicer feedback while the
Cherry switches feel like nothing (perhaps that's intentional), and
I'm finding their way of travel too small while the Outemu switches
seem to travel a little further. If you can find a keyboard with
Outemus, it might be worth a try.

Stay away from these so-called 'gaming keyboards'. Everything that's
labled 'gaming' is usually either incompatible, otherwise bad, or
overpriced, or all of that at the same time. So if you find a 'gaming
keyboard' at least make sure it's compatible before buying.


[1]:
https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A

[Richmond]

hw <h...@adminart.net> writes:

> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
>> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
>> adapter so I gave up on them.
>
> They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.
>

Yes, I am using an IBM keyboard right now via usb into a laptop, with
this adapter:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FLD3T8T

[songbird]

if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon
cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
tabs break off.

otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing...


songbird

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > adapter so I gave up on them.
>
> They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.

As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
to open the overview. My old Model Ms lack that key.

> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.

I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
keyboard can be configured to swap them back. Otherwise, I would prefer
the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
to the Space bar. I don't find any documentation on their Web site
about that capability.

I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
control keys on several of the function keys. It's quite handy to raise
or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.

> I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> better than these buckling spring ones.

No question. The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

[Michael Kjörling]

On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):

>> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
>
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back.

The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should
be purely a software configuration issue.

If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for
the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus
can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap
trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes.

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 04 Feb 11:57 -0600, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> >> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> >
> > I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> > keyboard can be configured to swap them back.
>
> The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should
> be purely a software configuration issue.
>
> If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
> key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for
> the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus
> can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap
> trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes.

xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. Maybe this
combination has a way to remap keys but that's not something I've been
inclined to do. The daskeyboard suits me fine and I plan to just stick
with it.

[Michael Kjörling]

On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):

> xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland.

Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
localization experience.

If you're happy with your current keyboard, great.

[Anssi Saari]

Lee <ler...@gmail.com> writes:

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I've had a fnatic ministreak for a few years. Why?
- RGB backlight, I set it to a pleasant green.
- remappable keys, remappings stored in the keyboard so it works the
same everywhere. Two layouts but I only need one.
- mechanical keys but quiet ones (Cherry MX Red Silent).
- tenkeyless, so without the numeric pad I don't need.
- Some media keys, I really only use volume up and down.

Only improvement I'd like is macros that you could copy-paste in and
adjust their speed. This has macros but you have to type them in which
isn't that helpful. My use case is getting passwords into stupid devices
and apps, thankfully it's not that common but there's always that one
thing on some gizmo that insists you have to type in the password. In
fact, my TV has at least two.

Before this I had a Happy Hacking keyboard lite for about 20 years. It
was and is great, just a little short on keys and lacks the other
features mentioned above too.

[hw]

IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing
that it's too wobbly for you?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 11:36 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> >
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
>
> As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
> to open the overview. My old Model Ms lack that key.
>
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
>
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back. Otherwise, I would prefer
> the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
> to the Space bar. I don't find any documentation on their Web site
> about that capability.

Contact them, maybe you can get a layout you want --- or check out the
122 key version closeley.

> I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
> key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
> control keys on several of the function keys. It's quite handy to raise
> or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.
>
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
>
> No question. The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
> document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't have these stupid extra keys
nobody wants or needs they put into the row with the space bar --- I
guess you mean those? Those get in the way all the time and I hate
them. On the 122 key version, they are at the bottom of the small
block of keys an the left where they are not in the way.

You can pull all the keycaps and swap them around if you like. If
you're still using Xorg, you should be able to reconfigure the key
bindings.

I couldn't find out how to do that with wayland :( Without being able
to modify the key bindings, I'm stuck with an US layout, and keyboards
with a physical US layout are almost impossible to get here.

It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
Maybe someone knows where that is?

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland.
>
> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> localization experience.

We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.

With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With
wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
German layout.

It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
at all with, and it really pisses me off.

All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
problem. Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
need to.

[Henrik Morsing]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote:
>

>I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
>Not great but OK.
>I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
>nothing but too thick for regular use.
>And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
>the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
>the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)
>

Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it.

And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of the right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys.

So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one repaired/replaced should it break.

Regards,
Henrik Morsing

[Dan Ritter]

Henrik Morsing wrote:
> Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it.
>
> And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of the right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys.
>
> So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one repaired/replaced should it break.

You might want to buy a spare as soon as you see one and wrap it
up against dust and mechanical accidents.

-dsr-

[songbird]

hw wrote:
...

> It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> Maybe someone knows where that is?

in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
around keyboards and common keys being swapped. i don't use
them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has something
similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
time.


songbird

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:

...

>> if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
>> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
>> me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon
>> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
>> tabs break off.
>>
>> otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing...
>
> IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing
> that it's too wobbly for you?

it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
use it in a non-conventional manner. i do not use them on a
flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
here on my comfy perch (i find sitting uncomfortable and
eventually painful so i don't do it any more - instead i
sprawl out and have some pillows propping me up a little bit).

i didn't really figure this out until it was too late for
the second keyboard (a replacement for the first which flaked
out right after the warranty period was up). after i got the
2nd keyboard i took the first one apart hoping i could fix it
but there were broken plastic tabs and then the pressure
ribbon connection so i just left it aside for parts for the
new one. the new one also started having issues within about
a year and a half.

the first keyboard may have been damaged in shipping based
upon the broken plastic tabs inside, but i can't say for sure
all i know is that it is not built sturdy enough for my use.

if i knew that flexing was bad i could have come up with a
board or piece of metal to put underneath it to begin with.
this is why i'm mentioning it because there may be someone
else who sees this topic/thread who's doing something like i
am and i don't want them to be out of a keyboard that other-
wise may last quite a long time.

if i can find a way to get keyboards functional again with-
out costing so much (the pressure ribbon connection just is
not seeming reliable enough) i'd love to have them working
again. youtube vids are not really covering how to do this
sort of repair (making that connection reliable again).

i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
connections and didn't get any satisfaction. the key problem
was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
but when i brought it up i got static and resistance. three
strikes and i'm done with them.

i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
the overall price is just too much ($300-500). $80 for what
i have now was acceptable.

[*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/


songbird

[Loris Bennett]

hw <h...@adminart.net> writes:

> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
>> > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland.
>>
>> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
>> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
>> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
>> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
>> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
>> localization experience.
>
> We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
>
> With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With
> wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> German layout.

Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German
layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

> It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
> at all with, and it really pisses me off.
>
> All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
> problem. Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
> need to.

--
This signature is currently under constuction.

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?

Logitech K270

full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine

I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling
spring technology.

If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

--
JHHL

[James H. H. Lampert]

I also wouldn't mind one bit if somebody came up with a computer
keyboard that exactly duplicates the key arrangement and feel of a
Linotype keyboard.

Not for practical daily use, mind you (I'll stick with my Unicomps);
rather, as a practice instrument for those who occasionally run Linotype
and Intertype machines, and for interpretive exhibits in graphic arts
museums (given that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International
Printing Museum, I'd find both useful).

"etaoin shrdlu"

--
JHHL

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/4/24 9:56 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

> If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the

> key caps . . . can be flipped physically.

Unicomp can and will make custom keycaps.

--
JHHL

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> ...
> > > if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> > > me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon
> > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> > > tabs break off.
> > >
> > > otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing...
> >
> > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing
> > that it's too wobbly for you?
>
> it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
> use it in a non-conventional manner. i do not use them on a
> flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
> here on my comfy perch

Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the
wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy
compared to other keyboards. They're not inflexible, though, so using
like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break.

That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a
piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make
it feel cold in your lap.

> [...]

> i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
> of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
> issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
> connections and didn't get any satisfaction. the key problem
> was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
> but when i brought it up i got static and resistance. three
> strikes and i'm done with them.

I'm sorry to hear that. It seems like they cut back on the models and
options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service. I
can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay,
and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically
new. The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I
were to order directly from them :(

> i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
> their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
> the overall price is just too much ($300-500).

Oh! I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer
different models! I didn't like the layout of the Model F they
planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a
keyboard the layout of which I don't want.

I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M
in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one ---
but the shipping will probably forbid it.

I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the
122 key version. It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller,
especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can
be difficult to type on it. The Cherry G80, for example, has that
problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches
since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets
and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal
size wrists.

> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.

Which one is that? It must be an unusually sturdy one. Or did you
put a metal plate under it?

> [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> hw <h...@adminart.net> writes:
>
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n0...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > >
> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > localization experience.
> >
> > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> >
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > German layout.
>
> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German
> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and
layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
the keyboard to be usable.

And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an
US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you
have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like
30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
to mean?

So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there
no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
should be?

Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able
to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.

In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the
time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
US keyboard. But I only have one of those.

It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But
the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.


[1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 21:06 +0100, hw wrote:
> And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean?

"Strg" is short for "Steuerung", just the literal translation of
"control".

/ralph

[David Wright]

Control.

> So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there
> no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
> should be?
>
> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
>
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard. But I only have one of those.
>
> It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
> switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But
> the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.
>
> [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

"The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
four major ways:

The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched. In English,
the letter "y" is very common and the letter "z" is relatively
rare, whereas in German the letter "z" is very common and the
letter "y" is very uncommon.[1] The German layout places "z" in a
position where it can be struck by the index finger, rather than
by the weaker little finger.

Part of the keyboard is adapted to include umlauted vowels (ä, ö,
ü) and the sharp s (ß). (Some newer types of German keyboards
offer the fixed assignment Alt+++H → ẞ for its capitalized
version.)

Some of special key inscriptions are changed to a graphical symbol
(e.g. ⇪ Caps Lock is an upward arrow, ← Backspace a leftward
arrow). Most of the other abbreviations are replaced by German
abbreviations (thus e.g. "Ctrl" is translated to its German
equivalent "Strg", for Steuerung). "Esc" remains as such. (See:
"Key labels" below)

Like many other non-American keyboards, German keyboards change
the right Alt key into an Alt Gr key to access a third level of
key assignments. This is necessary because the umlauts and some
other special characters leave no room to have all the special
symbols of ASCII, needed by programmers among others, available on
the first or second (shifted) levels without unduly increasing the
size of the keyboard."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

Cheers,
David.

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> ...
> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> > the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
>
> in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.

Does that work with wayland?

With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
atm.

Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
keyboard? It's insane.

> i don't use them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has
> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
> time.

Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly. I'd
like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
buggy. When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.

The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
tiling WMs. I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.

I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...

Maybe give Gnome another try. It does have its advantages, and it
can't hurt to check it out.

The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
things) a great deal. So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
122 keys.

Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):

> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
>
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard. But I only have one of those.

Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date
back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or
Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even
earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history
goes.

The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to
use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the
keyboard(5) man page.

[hw]

... and trackballs like CST ones, and full metal versions.

[Steve McIntyre]

Lee wrote:
>
>I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
>ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
>about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't
>work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>

>I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
>which keyboard do you like and why?

I used to love the old IBM Model M, and I used a few of those over the
years until I started having trouble with USB-PS/2 adapters. Then I
tried a new Unicomp USB keyboard. Very similar feel, as you'd expect,
but it didn't have the same build quality and the lower row of keys
started to die after ~5 years or so. It was also *very* loud, enough
to be a problem even in my home office.

About 2y aho I picked up a Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry MX Brown
switches. I'm loving it - full size and a good level of mechanical
tactile feedback WITHOUT ALL THE NOISE ALL THE TIME. Very much
recommended.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky,
Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> [...]

> "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> four major ways:

It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
rather awkward and difficult to use. Whoever created it has
completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.

And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key. That also has
consequences that make things worse.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

[Ash Joubert]

On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> Logitech K270
> full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine

I use a Logitech MK270r Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the
same keyboard. Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power
switches on both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and
not too loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have
several of these sets for my various work and home computers.

Cheers,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) <a...@transient.nz>
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited <https://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):

> > [...]

> > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in
> > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one
> > of those.
>
> Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
> about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date
> back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or
> Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even
> earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history
> goes.

Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such
a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. Try to get a
German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010.

It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the
question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that
into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring
that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ...

Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some
ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off.
So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had
to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and
if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then
do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the
other way round).

How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It
still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
good way to change the keyboard layouts!

> The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to
> use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the
> keyboard(5) man page.

"In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in
/etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the
console."

Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.

So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/5/24 14:11, Ash Joubert wrote:
> On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>> Logitech K270
>> full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine
>
> I use a Logitech MK270r

good tip, packaged with a mouse for $6 more

thanks. I will get that bundle next time

[Max Nikulin]

On 06/02/2024 03:59, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
> about forever.

GNOME developers decided that they do not want to support all "bells and
whistles" of XKB, e.g. layout switch using CapsLock and Shift+CapsLock.
So some features configurable through /etc/default/keyboard are not
available.

[Max Nikulin]

On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With
> wayland, I can't do that anymore

Untested:

https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
User-specific XKB configuration - part 1

and I have heard about a low-level trick

/etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be
handled by device firmware.

[David Wright]

On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> > > [...]
> > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in
> > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one
> > > of those.
> >
> > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
> > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date
> > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or
> > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even
> > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history
> > goes.
>
> Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such
> a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means.

man keyboard perhaps? (First paragraph in Description.)

> Try to get a
> German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010.
>
> It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the
> question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that
> into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring
> that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ...

Would you get more help on the German list, as one might expect
people there to be using German layouts more frequently?

caps:ctrl_modifier Caps Lock is also a Ctrl

xorg.conf is only omitted because by default it is empty. I drop a
small file into xorg.conf.d just because the side buttons on one of
my mice are a nuisance. But I don't resent not having to specify
all those Screens, Monitors and Devices that used to be necessary.

> Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some
> ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off.
> So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had
> to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and
> if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then
> do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the
> other way round).

As I have NumLock turned off, and never turn it on, I haven't had
occasion to use IgnoreModifiers in fvwm, but

IgnoreModifiers 2

is meant to ignore that modifier.

> How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It
> still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
> good way to change the keyboard layouts!

I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's
been around for 30 years.

> > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to
> > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the
> > keyboard(5) man page.
>
> "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in
> /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the
> console."
>
> Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.
>
> So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?

I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out.

Cheers,
David.

[David Wright]

On Fri 02 Feb 2024 at 20:25:09 (-0500), Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
>

> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Most of the time I use a Logitech K520, bought with a unified mouse,
though I use it with a wired optical mouse. We have another K520 and
a K540, also with mice, though the mice are scattered around. The
540 says Logitech Europe, though it's a US layout like the rest.

I also have an M 1391406 keyboard from 1988, with a GB layout, so
it's got 102 keys. I use it on a 2011 Dell tower (which has PS/2
connectors), paired with a 20-year old Logitech Pilot 3-button.

In a cupboard we've also got a couple of MS Internet Pros (US) and
a Viglen (GB), all USB wired. I don't like their touch.

Cheers,
David.

[Greg Wooledge]

> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
>
> I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out.

At this point, I believe there are folks who *believe* that Wayland is
the future, and that everyone should switch to it sooner rather than
later.

I also believe that there are people who are happily using it. Most
people who use it probably don't even know they're using it.

What I *know*, however, is that there are some people who are never
going to switch until (a) the decision is taken away from them, by X
no longer working, or (b) a fully equivalent Wayland environment can
be created to take the place of their existing X environment.

I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional
working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not
aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an
environment has the motivation to do so.

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional
> working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not
> aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an
> environment has the motivation to do so.

I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for
the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file
feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard).

AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but
that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland.


Stefan

[to...@tuxteam.de]

I lost that optimism long time ago. If I felt a genuine interest,
I'd put up with all the inconveniences involved, but I just don't.

I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the
context of GNOME and I don't need that again.

But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better.

Cheers
--
t

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:

[...]

> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard? It's insane.

While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...

But floats? Where's the problem?

[...]

> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss

> fvwm [...]

That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
*my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
little skull for the cursor :-)

Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Cheers
--
t

[Brian Sammon]

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
hw <h...@adminart.net> wrote:

> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different keyboard models.

This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and somewhat poorly documented. And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it.

It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up. The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself.

Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
/lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
/usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

Gotchas include:
Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the example/sample config files.
If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.

[Michael Kjörling]

On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):

> and for almost 30 years we had
> to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session

numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years.
Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a
gap of at most a few years.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup&oldid=5154

https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/

May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be
more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the
environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or
plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to
simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible
solution simply brush it off? Chances are that someone has an entirely
workable suggestion, if not an outright solution, which _would_ help;
but whether you intend them that way or not, your posts come across as
rather condescending or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put
people off from even reading them, severely reducing the pool of
people who might have an answer to share.

[Loris Bennett]

OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to
my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang
up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed
to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out
how to map that to a single insert.

> And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
> example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an
> US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you
> have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like
> 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
> to mean?

As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why

> So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there
> no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
> should be?
>
> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
>
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard. But I only have one of those.
>
> It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
> switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But
> the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.
>
>
> [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

--
This signature is currently under constuction.

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote:

> [...]

> > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It
> > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
> > good way to change the keyboard layouts!
>
> I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's
> been around for 30 years.

I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.

Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been
troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added
over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every
keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays
were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines
manually.

We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
all now.

> > [...]

> > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.
> >
> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
>
> I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out.

It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it.

I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
users haven't noticed yet.

Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good
alternative for servers.

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 09:17 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw):
> > and for almost 30 years we had
> > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session
>
> numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years.
> Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a
> gap of at most a few years.

NumLock has been around well before 2002.

>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup&oldid=5154
>
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/
>
> May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be
> more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the
> environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or
> plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to
> simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible
> solution simply brush it off?

Nobody has yet suggested a solution to how to change keyboard layouts
when using wayland.

> Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not
> an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend
> them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending
> or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even
> reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an
> answer to share.

It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 11:35:34AM +0100, hw wrote:

[...]

> > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not

> > an outright solution [...]

> It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.

I was following this thread with some interest. Now, I'm out.

Cheers
--
t

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Loris Bennett wrote:
> As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
> many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why

BASIC ?

Or the popular bundle theory:
[Strg] (= [Ctrl]) means "String",
[AltGr] (= right side [Alt]) means "Altgriechisch" (= ancient greek),
[Entf] (= [Delete]) means "Entfetten" (= degrease).


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore
>
> Untested:
>
> https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
> User-specific XKB configuration - part 1
>
> and I have heard about a low-level trick
>
> /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
> evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
> KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 0 Jan 22 01:00 .
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb 5 13:03 ..

But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

> However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be
> handled by device firmware.

IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal
with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122. There used to be
terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit
PCs. So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is
either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the
hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC
can understand.

In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware
translates keys like F14 to Shift+4. IIRC that was the classical way
to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be
called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software). There is
probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't
exist for a PC. This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also
translates to something a PC can understand.

[debia...@howorth.org.uk]

hw <h...@adminart.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> > four major ways:
>
> It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
mentioned as the second of the four ways.

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 10:57 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> [...]

> OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to
> my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang
> up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed
> to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out
> how to map that to a single insert.

That is another good example that we need to be able to change the
keyboard layout.

When these strange keys create scan codes and you're using Xorg, it's
probably easy to remap them with xmodmap. Just change their mapping
to what usually the insert key is mapped to.

> [...]

> As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
> many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why

'Strg' doesn't belong on a key. It's 'Ctrl'. There is no German
translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong. A
more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
for this key. If someone says 'String' that only shows that they have
no clue what they're talking about.

'Strg' means nothing. It's another failure like 'allgemeine
Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of
'segementation fault'. 'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing.

A lot of things don't translate into German and the people who are
creating such translations don't know what the term they are trying to
translate means and thus come up with such nonsense. I never read any
documentation in German because the transation is always garbage and
not understandable; you have to read it in English for it to make any
sense. Computers and software were not created and developed in
Germany but in the US and thus fit into the English language and not
into German. That's still the case, and German doesn't have the
necessary words. There's probably more to it, like computers being
part of the worlds American peoeple live in while not being part of
the worlds Germans live in, with a few exceptions, so they never made
it into the language. There is still not even a word for 'computer'
in German (there is no word for cellphone, either). Germany has been
cut off, and it shows.

When you need to tell a German to press Ctrl, you have to tell them to
press Strg. They won't find the Ctrl key and they won't find the
Steuerung key. Those keys aren't on German keyboards. I don't know
why they changed that, it used be Ctrl on Germany keyboards. People
used to be able to find the Ctrl key when you told them to press
Control. It's just bullshit, they should never have changed it, and
it's stupid and annoying.

[debia...@howorth.org.uk]

Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:04:16PM +0100, hw wrote:
> ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
> total 0
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 0 Jan 22 01:00 .
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb 5 13:03 ..
>
> But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev
hwdb.d/ rules.d/ udev.conf
unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
unicorn:~$

Looks like a blank slate. Create your own rules, at your own risk.

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> have
> no clue what they're talking about.

No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung

Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more
often than not it is a "false friend".

> 'Strg' means nothing.  It's another failure like 'allgemeine
> Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of
> 'segementation fault'.  'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing.

The concept of control characters/"Steuerzeichen" is a completely
valid concept, and "Steuerzeichen" is the dominant, and IMO correct
translation of it. These characters are meant not to print letters, but
to control stuff (make the bell go "pling", return the carriage)
etc, "sie sollen Geräte steuern".

I do completely agree with you, that especially Microsoft made
some truely bad decisions in creating German translations for
concepts that are expressed much more elegantly in the English
original.

But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these. Yes, the
choice the Swiss made with just printing "Ctrl" on the key was probably
better.

That said, and to be at least somewhat more on-topic: Most of my
systems are in en_GB locale, but I've found the German translations of
Debian to be worlds better than their Microsoft counterparts.

/ralph

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:

[...]

> But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String

> or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...]

Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"...

=:-o

Cheers
--
t

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw <h...@adminart.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
>
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a
> Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the
> A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

Wow that's a very tall order!

> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
>
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.

At least there is a way :)

Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be
selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere? I was thinking if
I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then
modify it they way I need it. Or is that approach not even feasible?

I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping
but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done
with xmodmap.

> And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI
> config tools for it.

Well, I prefer that.

> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input

Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev.

Is wayland using this XKB thing? When I run 'setxkbmap -print
-verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an
Xwayland server'. Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or
that we're not supposed to use XKB?

> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa
>
> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)

That's an interesting file indeed!

So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not
having to press Shift. I. e. the key is the first key on top row of
my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get
a tilde.

Wev says 'key: 49'. That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file.
Now what?

> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist.

> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)

Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb.

> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files.

It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain
keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to
show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards.

That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop. Perhaps he
would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular
keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode
and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report
as described in the file. Then these keys may end up working for
everyone with such a laptop.

> If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of
> your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it)
> instead of giving an error message.

Hm, that's bad ...

Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case. I
could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these
evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to
specify my keyboard to make settings for it.

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:07 +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> > 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> > translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> > more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> > for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> > have
> > no clue what they're talking about.
>
> No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":

No, it isn't when you understand what it means in German. See, for
example:

https://www.dwds.de/wb/Steuerung
https://www.wordnik.com/words/control
https://www.dwds.de/wb/Kontrolle

And don't forget the difference between 'Steuerung' and 'Regelung',
see here for an example:
https://www.haustechnikverstehen.de/der-unterschied-zwischen-steuerung-und-regelung/

> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung

too many cookies

> Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more
> often than not it is a "false friend".

In any case, it doesn't mean 'Steuerung'. It might be best if we were
to find out how it came about that there is a key labled 'Ctrl',
meaning 'control', on keyboards, and what the intention originally
was.

> [...] These characters are meant not to print letters, but to

> control stuff (make the bell go "pling", return the carriage) etc,
> "sie sollen Geräte steuern".

They are not characters but key combinations to control a computer in
lack of designated keys. As to 'Geraete steuern' see above. There's
a particular meaning to 'Steuern' when it comes to that context, and
it's very different from 'Kontrollieren'. There's also 'ein Fahrzeug
steuern'. You would have to argue that the key must not be labled
'Ctrl' but 'Steer'.

> I do completely agree with you, that especially Microsoft made
> some truely bad decisions in creating German translations for
> concepts that are expressed much more elegantly in the English
> original.

I'm not sure that Microsoft did that. Maybe they hired translators to
do the translations since Microsoft doesn't speak German ...

> But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
> or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these. Yes, the
> choice the Swiss made with just printing "Ctrl" on the key was probably
> better.

It's bad. And like I said, German keyboards used to have the Ctrl
key. It was only changed to 'Strg' a long time later so nobody knows
anymore what it means. It was a very bad idea, entirely unnecessary
and is designed to make people stupid.

> That said, and to be at least somewhat more on-topic: Most of my
> systems are in en_GB locale, but I've found the German translations
> of Debian to be worlds better than their Microsoft counterparts.

Microsoft translated Debian documentation?

It's been decades that I tried to read Debian man pages or other
documentation in German, and back then, the translation was terrible
and I switched to English. Even if there are now better translations,
I'd probably be a very awkward reading and I'd have to keep trying to
translate it back to English while reading to figure out what it's
trying to say.

Out of curiosity, what does Debian translate 'segmentation fault' to?
What it means is evident in English. In German, the whole background
required to understand it does not exist.

[hw]

Hm I guess that's one way of controlling someone. For a computer,
you might have to put some variable resistors into a buch of wires to
make it work. But they're way too digital for that.

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > keyboard? It's insane.
>
> While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
> although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
> one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
> and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...
>
> But floats? Where's the problem?

I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
number pad, with one hand. Unless you change the keyboard layout so
you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't
sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one
hand.

Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you
understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to
enter such numbers. Even then it would be nuisance.

>
> [...]
>
> > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> > fvwm [...]
>
> That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
> XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
> *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
> at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
> little skull for the cursor :-)
>
> Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Then why aren't you using fvwm? Gnome is more your enemy than your
ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

[songbird]

hw wrote:
...
>> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.
>
> Which one is that? It must be an unusually sturdy one. Or did you
> put a metal plate under it?

Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard

it is solid but stiff, it is also pretty quiet compared to a
model M and has no feel like it either, but i can cope with
that. the question is how long will it last? :) i will find
out... if i can get three years out of it then i'm ahead of
my trend with keyboards. with mice it has been even worse,
but that was another thread...


[complete aside]

texting on a phone is freaking hideous, i don't know how
people get things done with those. thank goodness most
phones have e-mail to text ways of sending and getting
messages.


songbird

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +0000, debia...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> hw <h...@adminart.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> > > four major ways:
> >
> > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.
>
> If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
> mentioned as the second of the four ways.

Strange, it's also in the part you quoted. I don't understand how I
missed that, sorry.

[to...@tuxteam.de]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 02:55:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > > keyboard? It's insane.
> >
> > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,

[...]

> > But floats? Where's the problem?
>
> I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the

> number pad [...]

Ah, that was the missing piece, thanks.

[...]

> > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!
>
> Then why aren't you using fvwm? Gnome is more your enemy than your
> ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

I /am/ using fvwm. Everything else would drive me nuts (more than
I am, already).

Cheers
--
t

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
>> hw wrote:
>> ...
>> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
>> > the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
>> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
>>
>> in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
>> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.
>
> Does that work with wayland?

i'm using Debian testing, so whatever MATE is at in there
in respect to wayland is where i'm at. i haven't intentionally
prevented changes from happening, but i'm also not sure wayland
is fully supported in MATE in testing right now. i think
though that i run X11 still.


> With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
> There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
> others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
> atm.

>
> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard? It's insane.

i had 3 weeks of German in college about 40 years ago.
that's it other than Hogan's Heroes... so, the answer
would be no.


>> i don't use them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has
>> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
>> time.

>
> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss

> fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly. I'd
> like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
> buggy. When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.
>
> The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
> tiling WMs. I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
> floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.
>
> I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
> having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
> no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...
>
> Maybe give Gnome another try. It does have its advantages, and it
> can't hurt to check it out.

good luck. i don't have time or space to try GNOME out
again. i went a long torturous route via GNOME, to KDE
and back to GNOME for a short while and then disgusted at
it went to MATE and have been mostly happy there. it is
a consistent interface enough that it doesn't get in my
way. that's what i wanted stability and those others kept
destroying my efforts (or more accurately my lack of the
desire to figure out a new method of doing the same thing
without the interface making the wrong assumptions about
what i wanted it to do (stay out of the way :) ))...


> The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
> things) a great deal. So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
> 122 keys.
>
> Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

no idea.

i'm content with 104. i rarely use odd keys. i have to
retrain myself to use the number pad because it really is
faster for when i'm editing numbers or doing data entry.


songbird

[Stefan Monnier]

> I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the
> context of GNOME and I don't need that again.

Discussions are tiresome, yes. Knowing it won't go well, it's important
to keep them short.

> But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better.

I'm not very optimistic. But I suspect that a thousand similar bug
reports are harder to discard as marginal than one or two.


Stefan

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw <h...@adminart.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
>

> [...]
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like
below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift.
Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :)


[ids]
*

[main]
` = ~

[shift]
` = `


[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master

[Michael Lange]

Hi,

On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 13:07:24 +0100
Ralph Aichinger <r...@h5.or.at> wrote:

> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> > 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> > translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> > more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> > for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> > have
> > no clue what they're talking about.
>
> No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":
>
> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung
>
> Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more
> often than not it is a "false friend".

I think this is at least debatable (if not plainly wrong). If you look at
the same dictionary the other way around (which I believe one should
do when looking for the German translation of "control") the impression
is quite to the contrary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english-german/control

Just saying ...

Have a nice day :-)

Michael

[David Wright]

On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > [...]
> > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It
> > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a
> > > good way to change the keyboard layouts!
> >
> > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's
> > been around for 30 years.
>
> I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.

If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject
line. It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.

> Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been
> troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added
> over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every
> keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays
> were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines
> manually.

My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.

In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
shifting ones (win and fn).

> We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> all now.

I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.

> > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out.
> > >
> > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
> >
> > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out.
>
> It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
> seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
> like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it.

I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references
that say something quite different.

> I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> users haven't noticed yet.
>
> Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
> even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
> to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good
> alternative for servers.

I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have
some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have
an awful lot of them.

Cheers,
David.

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote:

> > [...]

> > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.
>
> If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject
> line.

It doesn't concern me.

> It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.

It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the
keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
never about switching between different keyboards or between different
layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added
to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted
feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which
is a far more important feature.

> > [...]

> My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.

I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?

> In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
> to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
> shifting ones (win and fn).

10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard
with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
key combinations instead?

> > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > all now.
>
> I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.

No, it's about keyboards and computers. Can you show me a keyboard
that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout
so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any
configuration required?

I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian
or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the
keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary.
When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the
keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the
installation.

I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US
one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one
keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't
make a difference.

I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens
when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I
haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German
keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that
be?

Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you
connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a
layout for each one manually?

> > [...]

> > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
> > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
> > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it.
>
> I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references
> that say something quite different.

About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it?
What are those references?

I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features
in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and
that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time.

> > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> > users haven't noticed yet.
> >
> > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
> > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
> > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good
> > alternative for servers.
>
> I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have
> some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have
> an awful lot of them.

I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't
understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't
understand.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 06:58:39AM +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.
>
> It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the
> keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
> never about switching between different keyboards or between different
> layouts.

No, I can assure you, it is ambiguous.

To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a different
layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think *most* people
would assume the former.

Compare to "change clothing". If a parent says they want you to go
upstairs and change your shirt, they *most likely* mean they want
you to select a different shirt. They would be quite surprised if
you altered your shirt with a knife and some magic markers.

[John Hasler]

Greg writes:
> To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a
> different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think
> *most* people would assume the former.

I think the possibility of *altering* the keyboard layout would not even
occur to most users.


--
John Hasler
jo...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[hw]

On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > [...]

> > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.
> >
> > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the
> > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
> > never about switching between different keyboards or between different
> > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added
> > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted
> > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which
> > is a far more important feature.
>

> It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than
> one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to.

Sure it is, and when you do that, it's even more important to be able
to change the layout because you have to do it for all the languages
you're used to typing in --- and for all the keyboards you're using.
I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between
keyboards.

I don't know if that's possible, but I expect it to be possible since
USB makes it easily possible to have multiple keyboards connected at
the same time. So like in gnome settings, all the connected keyboards
need to show up so that I can pick a layout for each and then change
their layouts as I need them. If that doesn't work it's a bug.

Actually, I just tried it and it doesn't work :( The German keyboard
gets an US layout just like the US keyboard; it doesn't show up in
gnome settings, and there is no way to select a keyboard and to pick a
layout for it. That really sucks --- I can only assume that
developers don't want to have to do anything with keyboard layouts,
which might explain why it has always been a nightmare to get a
keyboard to work right and still is.

> > > > [...]
> > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
> >
> > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
>

> PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.

Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from?
Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved
the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it.

> > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
> > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
> > > shifting ones (win and fn).
> >
> > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard
> > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> > key combinations instead?
>

> That would be difficult:

That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about
keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many
keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work:
Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do
nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that
could use all the keys while PC hardware can not.

About 20 years ago I've seen a machine with terminals running some HP
Unix that had keyboards like that. They were networked through token
ring coax cables and had been used to run some CAD software which had
been replaced with, IIRC, autocad, but there were still files people
sometimes needed to retrieve from them, via NFS IIRC. They were nice
keyboards and had connectors that wouldn't fit any PC.

> I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have
> one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones,
> and how does xev identify them?

I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the
key to find any, and I haven't noticed any.

When I press F18, for example, wev says:

,----
| [11: wl_data_device] selection: id: 4278190081
| [13: wl_pointer] motion: time: 665008611; x, y: 617.781250, 467.316406
| [13: wl_pointer] frame
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270273; time: 665012185; key: 50; state: 1 (pressed)
| sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270274; group: 0
| depressed: 00000001: Shift
| latched: 00000000
| locked: 00000010: Mod2
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270275; time: 665012185; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed)
| sym: F6 (65475), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270276; time: 665012313; key: 50; state: 0 (released)
| sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270277; group: 0
| depressed: 00000000
| latched: 00000000
| locked: 00000010: Mod2
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270278; time: 665012313; key: 72; state: 0 (released)
| sym: F6 (65475), utf8: ''
`----

For the backtab key it says:

,----
| [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270525; group: 0
| depressed: 00000004: Control
| latched: 00000000
| locked: 00000010: Mod2
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270526; time: 665107706; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed)
| sym: F6 (65475), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270527; time: 665107834; key: 37; state: 0 (released)
| sym: Control_L (65507), utf8: ''
| [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270528; group: 0
| depressed: 00000000
| latched: 00000000
| locked: 00000010: Mod2
| [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270529; time: 665107834; key: 72; state: 0 (released)
| sym: F6 (65475), utf8: ''
`----

These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC,
Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM
made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted.

> The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where
> the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both
> engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved
> with "-".

I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the
symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer
on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg

> The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is
> the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending
> "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator.

I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's
great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on
every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like
F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my
workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried.

> > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > > > all now.
> > >
> > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.
> >
> > No, it's about keyboards and computers.
>

> Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about
> wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about
> all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up?

By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding?

I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for
wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that
the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not
obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need
to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be
Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a
big problem.

Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the
same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have
both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with
their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome? How
user friendly is this --- wayland or not. Why doesn't my computer
just detect the keyboards automatically and automatically picks a
suitable layout for each by default which I can then change? We have
2024 now, not 1984 ...

It's silly that we can pick a keyboard layout for every freaking
window, but we can have only one keyboard (which isn't even detected
automatically)! That doesn't make any sense.

> As for figuring out keyboards, I would say that Xorg does a pretty
> flexible job. There are plenty of preselected options available in
> /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst, and I guess you can override
> all you like with /etc/X11/xkb/ to get whatever you like. Not that
> I've needed to do so, as the options provided work here AFAICT.

Well, where's my nice GUI thingy that would let me change the keyboard
layout? Why do I have to configure the keyboard for the console
extra, and why is not even the state of the NumLock key consistent
between Xorg/Wayland and console? That's sooo annoying when you type
a number and something else happens instead just because that suddenly
changed.

How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even
the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself.

No, it doesn't do a good job at all --- maybe a flexible one, but not
a good one.

> > Can you show me a keyboard
> > that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout
> > so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any
> > configuration required?
>

> No, not without /any/ configuration. I'm guessing that you mean an
> EDID-like PROM that completely describes the layout of every key.
> I don't know that keyboard manufacturers have ever looked at
> something like that, at least for detached keyboards.

see

> But even then, it's likely that some configuration would be necessary
> as people exercise their own preferences over at least such things as
> CapsLock's behaviour and placement. If such advances led to an
> inability to tweak the layout, I'd see that as a backward step.

Yes, of course we need to be able to change the keyboard layout after
the keyboard was detected and configured correctly. That doesn't mean
it shouldn't be detected and configured correctly at all.

Do you have any idea how 'nice' it is when you have to make BIOS
settings or the like with a German keyboard and you need to enter
characters like - or = or |? I don't have much of a problem with that
because I know where they are on the US keyboard I'm using all the
time (but I still need to experiment). But most people don't. Most
people speak Chinese or Spanish ... So why aren't their keyboards
configured correctly to begin with once plugged in? How backwards is
that.

For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing
and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use.

> I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch
> layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in
> the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad
> tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured
> individually.

Each keyboard, too?

> When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it
> types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~
> on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB
> keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key
> is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one.

Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra
configuration?

The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean?

On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or >
--- and with Ctrl, it does nothing, but with Alt, in Emacs runs
beginning-of-buffer (M-<). For me, that's an extra key I could use
for something else since < and > are on , and .. I guess I could swap
the keycap from another keyboard in.

> > [...]

> > About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it?
> > What are those references?
> >
> > I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features
> > in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and
> > that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time.
>

> You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have
> said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it.

You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example:

https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/
https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395

> And you backup your claim with a suggestion that there's only one
> person who doesn't want it abandoned? Please show a reference to
> where they say they're planning to abandon it.

That's not what I said.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/

Someone picked it up later and I'm too lazy to find that page again.
Thomas Adams also said on the fvwm mailing list that he wants to help
keeping Xorg alive because he wants to keep fvwm alive.

> > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> > > > users haven't noticed yet.
> > > >
> > > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
> > > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
> > > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good
> > > > alternative for servers.
> > >
> > > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have
> > > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have
> > > an awful lot of them.
> >
> > I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't
> > understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't
> > understand.
>

> Those paragraphs didn't describe your experience: the first just
> insulted Debian users;

There's no insult here. It's a matter of fact. You can dig through
the mails on this list for the issue if you want. I asked here how I
could get the card to work and there were suggestions like using
special kernels from testing or something like that, and I decided to
install Fedora instead because I didn't want to deal with Debian
problems that existed then and may have continued to exist.

Check the packages in Debian and the versions of the software they
contain and verify them to the current versions of the software, and
the changes between the versions, if you want a complete picture.
Sometimes it's advantageous to have old software, like asterisk which,
unfortunately, dropped xmpp support quite a while ago and Debian (11,
I think) still has it. Sometimes it is a disadvantage, and my
experience is that it's generally more a disadvantage.

I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone.

> the second had no facts, just opinions.

Experience is not opinion.

> And your reply is just one of those insults that you occasionally
> toss out here. Those really belong on social media, if anywhere,
> and certainly not on a technical mailing list.

I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason
to, and that someone would probably know.

Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't
blame me for it.

Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're
referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with
that.

[David Wright]

On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > > [...]

> I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between
> keyboards.

Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement:
a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro.

In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the
table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two
screens, set to mirroring.)

> > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
> > >
> > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
> >
> > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.
>
> Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from?
> Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved
> the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it.

I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's
description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb.

> > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard
> > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> > > key combinations instead?
> >
> > That would be difficult:

I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half
a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote:

"That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or

even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there
duplicate keys?"

That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here:

> That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about
> keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many
> keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work:
> Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do
> nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that
> could use all the keys while PC hardware can not.

I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in
udev seem to have far more keys available than 122.

> > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have
> > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones,
> > and how does xev identify them?
>
> I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the
> key to find any, and I haven't noticed any.

It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it.

> When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ]

Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear
to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably.

> For the backtab key it says:

Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again,
NumLock appears to be on.

> These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC,
> Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM
> made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted.

That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24.
Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18?

> > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where
> > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both
> > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved
> > with "-".
>
> I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the
> symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer
> on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg

But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys
produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might
depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that
when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would
originally have produced.

> > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is
> > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending
> > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator.
>
> I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's
> great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on
> every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like
> F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my
> workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried.

This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11
(engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep.

> > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > > > > all now.
> > > >
> > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.
> > >
> > > No, it's about keyboards and computers.
> >
> > Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about
> > wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about
> > all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up?
>
> By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding?

Because my intelligence and understanding enable me to configure
my keyboards as I want them, I can't understand why you wrote the
first three lines in that block quoted above. It doesn't match
my experience.

> I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for
> wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that
> the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not
> obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need
> to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be
> Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a
> big problem.

So now we're back to wayland. I'm afraid I don't use wayland, and know
next to nothing about it.

But I don't always use a US keyboard: I use two or three GB keyboards too.

> Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the
> same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have
> both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with
> their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome?

No idea: I've never used gnome.

> How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even
> the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself.

I guess you'd just use xmodmap to define the scancode to do nothing.

> For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing
> and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use.

Perhaps check your layout by typing characters at the login prompt,
then rub them all out, and continue with your login.

> > I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch
> > layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in
> > the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad
> > tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured
> > individually.
>
> Each keyboard, too?

Yes, that way my keyboards will work correctly wherever they're
plugged, as I have a mixture US- and GB-origin laptops and keyboards.

> > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it
> > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~
> > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB
> > keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key
> > is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one.
>
> Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra
> configuration?

It's in the script that was mentioned in the footnote, where the
Id for the keyboard etc comes from the aforementioned xinput command,
which lists all the devices connected.

> The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean?

Not really, no. But now you've revealed your keyboard looks like
911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I can tell you that the extra GB key is the one
that's unengraved, and it's still left of Z, as I wrote.

> On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or >

I remember using a keyboard that had such a key, but I can't recall
which: it was decades ago. But what was most unusual about that
keyboard was the comma and fullstop keys were the same when shifted.
(More conventional would have been ; and :, as in some continental
layouts.) It was great for typing reference lists in scientific papers.

> > You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have
> > said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it.
>
> You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example:

Why should I search for you?

> https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/

I'm not really concerned with Gnome—I'm not a DE-user.

> https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395

I don't see any timeframe mapped out there, and don't see how it
supports your view.

> > > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> > > > > users haven't noticed yet.

> I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone.

"So badly" is not a fact, and neither is "Debian users haven't noticed yet"

> Experience is not opinion.

/Your/ experience is what forms your opinions, which you now call "facts".
Others may have had different experiences and hold different opinions.
I certainly do.

> I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason
> to, and that someone would probably know.
>
> Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't
> blame me for it.
>
> Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're
> referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with
> that.

I think the first two paragraphs support my view. As for the third:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media

Cheers,
David.

[hw]

On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between
> > keyboards.
>
> Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement:
> a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro.

And is their layout identical? If isn't, do all the keys on both
keyboards what you expect them to do?

> In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the
> table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two
> screens, set to mirroring.)
>
> > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
> > > >
> > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
> > >
> > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.
> >
> > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from?
> > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved
> > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it.
>
> I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's
> description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb.

Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself?

> > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard
> > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> > > > key combinations instead?
> > >
> > > That would be difficult:
>
> I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half
> a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote:

I have no intention of doing something like that.

> "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or
> even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there
> duplicate keys?"
>
> That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here:
>
> > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about
> > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many
> > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work:
> > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do
> > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that
> > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not.
>
> I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in
> udev seem to have far more keys available than 122.

Perhaps what I have been reading wasn't true, or things have changed
and it is now possible to have more keys. It was sufficiently long
ago for things to have been changed.

But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys
like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is
Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver
substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order
to make the keyobard usable for PCs.

Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that
don't exist (for PCs)?

> > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have
> > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones,
> > > and how does xev identify them?
> >
> > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the
> > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any.
>
> It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it.
>
> > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ]
>
> Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear
> to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably.

You mean wev? What are trying to decode?

I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only
by accidident.

> > For the backtab key it says:
>
> Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again,
> NumLock appears to be on.

It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key
labeled Dup/Insert.

> > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC,
> > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM
> > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted.
>
> That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24.
> Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18?

It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys.

Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard
for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys?

> > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where
> > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both
> > > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved
> > > with "-".
> >
> > I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the
> > symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer
> > on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg
>
> But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys
> produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might
> depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that
> when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would
> originally have produced.

I don't know if all keys produce unique keycodes.

Wayland plays a role that pressing the Ctrl key works correctly in a
Gnome session while it does not in an X11 session. With KDE, I think
it works both with Wayland and X11, but KDE with Wayland is still too
unstable to use. (I'm currently using KDE after I was pissed by the
file manager in Gnome which has become too much dumbed down to be
usable, and there's no good replacement. So I thought I'd give KDE a
try and found that it now works much faster than it did when I tried
it last time, especially with Wayland. I only switched to Gnome
because KDE was so buggy and didn't work with Wayland at all back
then.)

> > > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is
> > > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending
> > > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator.
> >
> > I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's
> > great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on
> > every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like
> > F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my
> > workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried.
>
> This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11
> (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep.

Such a Fn key is for laptops; I don't want one on a normal keyboard.
And I was talking about actual keys we should have more of, not yet
another way (or layer) to modify what the existing keys do. If you
remember the ZX Spectrum, you may also remember how it was infamous
for having all kinds of things on every key, and some modifier keys to
summon all the stuff that was on the keys. People didn't like it back
then and probably wouldn't like now even less.

> > > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> > > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > > > > > all now.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.
> > > >
> > > > No, it's about keyboards and computers.
> > >
> > > Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about
> > > wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about
> > > all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up?
> >
> > By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding?
>
> Because my intelligence and understanding enable me to configure
> my keyboards as I want them, I can't understand why you wrote the
> first three lines in that block quoted above. It doesn't match
> my experience.

So you figured out how to change the keyboard layout with Wayland.

> > I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for
> > wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that
> > the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not
> > obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need
> > to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be
> > Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a
> > big problem.
>
> So now we're back to wayland. I'm afraid I don't use wayland, and know
> next to nothing about it.

So you can't really configure your keyboards once you use wayland.

> But I don't always use a US keyboard: I use two or three GB keyboards too.

Well, a German keyboard is quite different from those.

> > Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the
> > same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have
> > both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with
> > their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome?
>
> No idea: I've never used gnome.

Well, what would you do if you had two different keyboards connected
at the same time, one US or GB one, and a German one? Or you could
have three, US, GB and DE.

With Gnome or KDE, I'd expect to be able to configure each keyboard
differently through the settings of Gnome or KDE. But Gnome doesn't
allow me to do that. I haven't tried it with KDE.

And without Gnome and KDE? How do you configure them?

> > How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even
> > the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself.
>
> I guess you'd just use xmodmap to define the scancode to do nothing.

There's no xmodmap with Wayland. I'm not sure if you can do it with
xmodmap. I doubt you can.

> > For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing
> > and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use.
>
> Perhaps check your layout by typing characters at the login prompt,
> then rub them all out, and continue with your login.

There are sometimes situations where that isn't feasible, like BIOS
paswords or passwords to permit access to encrypted file systems you
need to enter during boot. And we shouldn't have issues like that in
the first place. Nowadays it's not too much to expect that a computer
can identify a keyboard and make it so that all the keys do what can
be expected, without/before any extra configuration. After all, what
do we have USB for?

> > > I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch
> > > layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in
> > > the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad
> > > tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured
> > > individually.
> >
> > Each keyboard, too?
>
> Yes, that way my keyboards will work correctly wherever they're
> plugged, as I have a mixture US- and GB-origin laptops and keyboards.

Nice --- that's sure a feature missing in Gnome.

> > > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it
> > > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~
> > > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB
> > > keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key
> > > is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one.
> >
> > Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra
> > configuration?
>
> It's in the script that was mentioned in the footnote, where the
> Id for the keyboard etc comes from the aforementioned xinput command,
> which lists all the devices connected.

Isn't that something that should happen automatically?

> > The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean?
>
> Not really, no. But now you've revealed your keyboard looks like
> 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I can tell you that the extra GB key is the one
> that's unengraved, and it's still left of Z, as I wrote.

For the pound sign? If I needed a pound sign, that would be a nice
place put it via keyd.

> > On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or >
>
> I remember using a keyboard that had such a key, but I can't recall
> which: it was decades ago. But what was most unusual about that
> keyboard was the comma and fullstop keys were the same when shifted.
> (More conventional would have been ; and :, as in some continental
> layouts.) It was great for typing reference lists in scientific papers.

Perhaps that was a misconfiguration? I guess most languages have :
and ;, and computers do need those keys.

> > > You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have
> > > said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it.
> >
> > You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example:
>
> Why should I search for you?

I don't need to search, I've already done it.

> > https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/
>
> I'm not really concerned with Gnome—I'm not a DE-user.
>
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395
>
> I don't see any timeframe mapped out there, and don't see how it
> supports your view.

I'm sure you can find more information when you look for it.

> > > > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > > > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > > > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> > > > > > users haven't noticed yet.
>
> > I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone.
>
> "So badly" is not a fact, and neither is "Debian users haven't noticed yet"

'So badly' is a fact. What haven't they not noticed yet?

> > Experience is not opinion.
>
> /Your/ experience is what forms your opinions, which you now call
> "facts".

No, you're confusing experience, opinion and facts.

> Others may have had different experiences and hold different opinions.
> I certainly do.

That's not my problem. You can always verify that at the time I tried
to get an AMD graphics card with a freshly installed Debian did not
work despite that card had come out already about a year ago and the
Debian installation was up to date. That same card worked fine with
Fedora out of the box. It is a fact that Debian was too old. It
doesn't matter what you believe or what your opinion are, they don't
change the facts.

> > I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason
> > to, and that someone would probably know.
> >
> > Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't
> > blame me for it.
> >
> > Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're
> > referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with
> > that.

You're free to believe whatever you want.

> I think the first two paragraphs support my view. As for the third:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media

That only shows that wikipedia has fallen for the misunderstanding
that 'social media' is not social but commercial. I might even go so
far as to say that it is not only commercial but anti-social, but that
might require more research I have no interest in doing.