scrollbar on left side
lee
is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
than on the right side in KDE?
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Camaleón
> is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than
> on the right side in KDE?
You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
Greetings,
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Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
>is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
>than on the right side in KDE?
Not on my system.
Presumably, this would be part of "System Settings -> General -> Appearance ->
Style". In fact, there are some scrollbar-related options under "Applications
-> Configure..." depending on the style.
I currently have the styles: CDE, Cleanlooks, GTK+, MS Windows 9x, Motif,
Oxygen, Phase, and Plastique. I could not find a scrollbar-on-the-left
setting on any of these and these doesn't appear to be a KGHNS button for
styles, so I'm not sure the best way to install any alternative styles.
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lee
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
>
> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than
> > on the right side in KDE?
>
> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
everywhere
The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
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Camaleón
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
>> > than on the right side in KDE?
>>
>> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
>
> everywhere
Ugh... then dunno.
I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put
the scrollbar or that automatically change the positition if they are
loaded using a LANG environment variable configured for right to left
reading (like Hebrew, maybe? :-?).
> The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
Under what "locale"? :-)
In mine (Spanish) is on the right.
Greetings,
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Ron Johnson
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>>> is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than
>>> on the right side in KDE?
>>
>> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
>
> everywhere
>
> The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
>
[u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left.
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Wayne Topa
> On 10/20/2010 01:21 PM, lee wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
>>>> than
>>>> on the right side in KDE?
>>>
>>> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
>>
>> everywhere
>>
>> The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
>>
>
> [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left.
>
Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side.
WT
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Ron Johnson
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Wayne Topa<linu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side.
>>
>> WT
>
As am I, but decades ago I accepted that I'm in the minority and
adapted to the circumstances.
> with a tablet pc and this would be a handy
> tweak for me.
>
man gnome-terminal?
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jeremy jozwik
>
> WT
how about gnome? im a lefty with a tablet pc and this would be a handy
tweak for me.
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jeremy jozwik
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Ron Johnson <ron.l....@cox.net> wrote:
>> man gnome-terminal?
and i dont think anyone asked for only gnome-terminal scroll bar placement
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jeremy jozwik
> man gnome-terminal?
at work without access to my debian machine
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Doug
>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
>>>> than
>>>> on the right side in KDE?
>>>
>>> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
>>
>> everywhere
>>
>> The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
>>
>
> [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left.
>
back where it _really_ belongs, on the right, I will abandon it completely!
(I thought this thread was in Ubuntu, where the windows controls are on the
wrong side! But you _can_ move them.) --doug
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Ron Johnson
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Ron Johnson<ron.l....@cox.net> wrote:
>> man gnome-terminal?
>
> at work without access to my debian machine
>
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal
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jeremy jozwik
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal
yah yah yah, i still dont see where or how gnome terminal will change
all application scroll bars to the left side.
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Ron Johnson
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ron Johnson<ron.l....@cox.net> wrote:
>> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal
>
> yah yah yah, i still dont see where or how gnome terminal will change
> all application scroll bars to the left side.
>
Neither did I, when I read the man page... :)
gnome-terminal only has 15 options, and two are variants of "help".
[u]rxvt, though, has 70, and is a subset of xterm.
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jeremy jozwik
> Neither did I, when I read the man page... :)
ok, so gnome-term has an profile option for it, and iceweasel has a
config value for it.
there are no global ui changes that can be made then for scroll bars
on the left side?
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Ron Johnson
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Ron Johnson<ron.l....@cox.net> wrote:
>> Neither did I, when I read the man page... :)
>
> ok, so gnome-term has an profile option for it, and iceweasel has a
> config value for it.
> there are no global ui changes that can be made then for scroll bars
> on the left side?
>
I guess that depends on your DE/WM. Gnome certainly does *not*; KDE
probably does, buried somewhere, and Xfce may.
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Jörg-Volker Peetz
For other applications like xterm or rxvt it can be customized with
X-settings, e.g., in ~/.Xdefaults
XTerm*scrollBar: True
XTerm*rightScrollBar: True
XTerm*scrollBar_right: True
URxvt*scrollBar: True
URxvt*scrollBar_right: True
The emacs editor has its own config-file where one can set
(cond (window-system (set-scroll-bar-mode 'right)))
For gnome-applications the search for "scrolled-window-placement"
results in a setting in ~/.gtkrc-2.0
gtk-scrolled-window-placement = top-right
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lee
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:21:43 +0200, lee wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
> >>
> >> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
> >> > than on the right side in KDE?
> >>
> >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
> >
> > everywhere
>
> Ugh... then dunno.
It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the
scroll bar on the left ...
> I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put
> the scrollbar
Yes, some do, and I have set the scroll bar to left whereever I
could. The ones that remain on the right side are all the more
annoying.
> > The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
>
> Under what "locale"? :-)
That shouldn´t matter since it´s personal preference. If I was reading
and writing from right to left instead of from left to right and if I
was using the trackball with my right hand, I might eventually want
the scrollbars on the right side. In that case, I might have placed my
monitor on the right side of my desk instead of on the left side and
would be leaning to left in my chair rather than to the right ...
But as things are, I´m writing/reading left to right and use the
trackball with my left. Naturally, the scrollbars have to be on the
left side and not on the right side. --- Do you think I could change
lokale to something that has scrollbars on the left but doesn´t change
anything else?
I probably can´t explain it, but to give you an analogy: Having the
scroll bars on the right side is worse than having to cross your arms
all the time when using the trackball/mouse or the keyboard ... When
you look at the gauges you have in your car, are they on the passenger
side or on the driver side? Having the scroll bars on the right makes
about as much sense as having those gauges on the passenger side. (And
I´m sitting on the left side of the car and drive on the right side of
the road. If there were scroll bars in cars, they´d have to be on the
left side, of course ...)
On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
text moving up together with the scroll bar?
Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
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Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the
book's page so that you only see the first few lines.
As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the
slit.
> Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
> hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
>
Because you're inflexible?
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Andreas Weber
> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
> Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
> hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
One started and this is how it is today. It may have had a reason in the
beginning, and now the vast majority is used to it. This doesn't mean it
makes any sense. If everything was sense driven, we (still: the
majority) wouldn't use QWERT keyboards anymore.
And doing GUI programming means that you can do the best you can think
of and there will always be some smart person knowing it better. Asking
5 people will give you 7.5 opinions, depending on the weather mostly I
guess. ;-)
<joking>Do more vi at the console, it'll teach you to get rid of that
trackball which is a bad habit anyway.</joking>
ändu
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Ron Johnson
> On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
>> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>
> Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
>
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Camaleón
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 06:44:50PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
>> >
>> > everywhere
>>
>> Ugh... then dunno.
>
> It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the
> scroll bar on the left ...
There is even an old bug report for that matter:
***
scrollbars on left
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4549
***
Now KDE4 depends on Qt 4 for rendering the whole desktop (widgets,
gadgets, windows...) so it should be implemented there (Qt libraries).
Not sure what is the status for this :-?
>> I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put
>> the scrollbar
>
> Yes, some do, and I have set the scroll bar to left whereever I could.
> The ones that remain on the right side are all the more annoying.
>
>> > The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ...
>>
>> Under what "locale"? :-)
>
> That shouldn´t matter since it´s personal preference. If I was reading
> and writing from right to left instead of from left to right and if I
> was using the trackball with my right hand, I might eventually want the
> scrollbars on the right side. In that case, I might have placed my
> monitor on the right side of my desk instead of on the left side and
> would be leaning to left in my chair rather than to the right ...
Yes, I agree. It should be user configurable.
> But as things are, I´m writing/reading left to right and use the
> trackball with my left. Naturally, the scrollbars have to be on the left
> side and not on the right side. --- Do you think I could change lokale
> to something that has scrollbars on the left but doesn´t change anything
> else?
I'm not sure... but it's worth a try to play with them (use another
account to avoid messing up your current user profile). For example,
setting LANG to one of the right to left languages and keeping the rest
of the "locales" as they should.
> Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
> hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
(...)
To be sincere, KDE has been always one of the most customizable desktops
out there, I'm surprised it does not allow the user to choose the
location (or even direction!) of the vertical/horizontal scrollbars. KDE
has always been very flexible in this aspect.
Greetings,
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lee
> On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
> >text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>
> Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
>
> Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the
> book's page so that you only see the first few lines.
>
> As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the
> slit.
Good answer :))
But who´s reading books like that?
> >Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
> >hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
> >
>
> Because you're inflexible?
I´m not responsible for the implementation.
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lee
> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
> > On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> > you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
> > text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>
> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
the scrollbar?
You have a good point though that the bar indicates the position and
behaves like that. But this isn´t so obvious --- or call it counter
intuitve ...
> > Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation
> > hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that?
>
> One started and this is how it is today.
Yes, I know, but it´s still amazing that it is still like that.
They keep changing how the input devices for the console and X11 are
configured all the time, but you can´t even configure the
scrollbars yet. Once could conclude that these things are still at
alpha stages ;)
> <joking>Do more vi at the console, it'll teach you to get rid of that
> trackball which is a bad habit anyway.</joking>
Na, emacs is so much better than vi ... ;)
Seriously, vi is probably great, but I never could bring myself to
learn it. And emacs has the scrollbar on the left, so why bother with
vi? :P
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Celejar
Wayne Topa <linu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 06:25 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:
...
> > [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left.
> >
>
> Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side.
As does Xfce Terminal.
Celejar
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lee
> >
> > It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the
> > scroll bar on the left ...
>
> There is even an old bug report for that matter:
>
> ***
> scrollbars on left
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4549
> ***
>
> Now KDE4 depends on Qt 4 for rendering the whole desktop (widgets,
> gadgets, windows...) so it should be implemented there (Qt libraries).
> Not sure what is the status for this :-?
Hm, did you see comment #5?
"Currently, Qt only positions scrollbars on the left with RTL
languages."
Now the question is how to make it put the scrollbars on the left
without having to write from left to right, since scrollbars on the
left appear to be supported already?
I´ll have to experiment with that tomorrow ...
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Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 06:44:50PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:21:43 +0200, lee wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote:
> > >> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
> > >> > than on the right side in KDE?
> > >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps?
> > > everywhere
> > Ugh... then dunno.
>
> It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the
> scroll bar on the left ...
As I mentioned in my other message in this thread, there may be a KDE theme
that draws the scrollbar on the left, but I can't find one on my system.
There were some other scrollbar-related configuration in the Oxygen theme, but
no scrollbar-on-left checkbox.
Roel Schroeven
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
>> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
>>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
>>> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
>>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
>
> Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
> scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
> the scrollbar?
Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text.
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lee
> lee wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
> >> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
> >>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> >>> you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
> >>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
> >> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
> >
> > Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
> > scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
> > the scrollbar?
>
> Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text.
The window isn�t moving, it remains at the same place on the
display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you
move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can�t
argue that movement is relative.
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Dotan Cohen
> Hi,
>
> is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
> than on the right side in KDE?
>
Sure, start the application with the --reverse flag:
$ okular --reverse
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Ron Johnson
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:24:46PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:
>> lee wrote:
>>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
>>>> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
>>>>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
>>>>> you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
>>>>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>>>> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
>>>
>>> Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
>>> scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
>>> the scrollbar?
>>
>> Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text.
>
> The window isn�t moving, it remains at the same place on the
> display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you
> move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can�t
> argue that movement is relative.
>
I knew that Roel's use of the phrase "viewing window" would confuse
someone. There's more than one use of the word "window".
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Daniel Barclay
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
>> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
>>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
>>> you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
>>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>>
>> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
>
> Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
> scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
> the scrollbar?
Because it models moving a _viewer_ (e.g., the far end of binoculars or
a telescope) down the text rather than moving the _text_ up.
And the inconsistency causing your "why?" is that the actual viewer
(the viewport drawn on your screen) is not moving, and instead the
text is actually moving up.
On http://maps.google.com/, try dragging in the scroller (the smaller
view in the lower right corner) and then try dragging in the main map,
and notice how in one case the map moves in the opposite direction.
If dragging in the middle of the text window scrolled the text in
the opposite direction, that really would be confusing and very
backwards.
Daniel
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lee
> On 10/22/2010 09:44 AM, lee wrote:
> >On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:24:46PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:
> >>lee wrote:
> >>>On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
> >>>>On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
> >>>>>On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> >>>>>you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
> >>>>>text moving up together with the scroll bar?
> >>>>Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
> >>>
> >>>Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
> >>>scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
> >>>the scrollbar?
> >>
> >>Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text.
> >
> >The window isn�t moving, it remains at the same place on the
> >display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you
> >move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can�t
> >argue that movement is relative.
> >
>
> I knew that Roel's use of the phrase "viewing window" would confuse
> someone. There's more than one use of the word "window".
In this case, there isn�t a relevant --- and certainly no obvious ---
difference between "viewing window" and (a particular meaning of)
"window". Making things more difficult than necessary can sometimes
lead to confuse oneself and others. Yet sometimes, it helps proving a
point.
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lee
> lee wrote:
> >On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote:
> >>On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote:
> >>>On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> >>>you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
> >>>text moving up together with the scroll bar?
> >>
> >>Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves.
> >
> >Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the
> >scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of
> >the scrollbar?
>
> Because it models moving a _viewer_ (e.g., the far end of binoculars or
> a telescope) down the text rather than moving the _text_ up.
>
> And the inconsistency causing your "why?" is that the actual viewer
> (the viewport drawn on your screen) is not moving, and instead the
> text is actually moving up.
Yes, and I�m not saying that it isn�t a reasonable assumption that a
viewer is being modeled. But when you don�t think around corners and
instead just observe what happens on the screen (in the window) when
you move the scroll bar down, it doesn�t make sense that the text is
moving up. This behaviour is no more than something a lot of ppl are
used to, and it could be different.
> On http://maps.google.com/, try dragging in the scroller (the smaller
> view in the lower right corner)
Hm, I don�t have that smaller view. Perhaps it depends on the browser
wheather it�s displayed or not.
> If dragging in the middle of the text window scrolled the text in
> the opposite direction, that really would be confusing and very
> backwards.
I�m not sure what you mean. Open a PDF with okular and drag in the
middle of the text window, and the text will move into the same
direction as you move the mouse pointer. Yet the scroll bar moves into
the opposite direction. Isn�t that quite backwards and confusing?
Otherwise, usually the text is being marked when you drag in the
middle of a text window. Useful, but confusing compared to okular. And
I�ve quite a few times found it very annoying that okular moves the
text rather than that you could mark it so that you can paste it
somewhere else, as you can with xpdf.
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lee
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 22:03, lee <l...@yun.yagibdah.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather
> > than on the right side in KDE?
> >
>
> Sure, start the application with the --reverse flag:
> $ okular --reverse
Cool, thanks! But it also flips the menu and puts it on the right
... This also works for konqueror ... but dolphin is buggy in that it
only flips and moves the menu but leaves the scroll bars on the right.
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Andrei Popescu
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote:
> > >
> > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> > >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the
> > >text moving up together with the scroll bar?
> >
> > Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
> >
> > Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the
> > book's page so that you only see the first few lines.
> >
> > As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the
> > slit.
>
We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight
to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big,
whereas ours is just a few rows big ;)
Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our
view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big
text at once.
Regards,
Andrei
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lee
> On Vi, 22 oct 10, 01:25:28, lee wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote:
> > > >
> > > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
> > > >you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
> > > >text moving up together with the scroll bar?
> > >
> > > Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
> > >
> > > Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the
> > > book's page so that you only see the first few lines.
> > >
> > > As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the
> > > slit.
> >
> > But who�s reading books like that?
>
> We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight
> to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big,
> whereas ours is just a few rows big ;)
>
> Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our
> view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big
> text at once.
Still we don�t put construction paper with a small slit in it onto the
pages of books we�re reading, and the text on the pages isn�t moving.
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Ron Johnson
> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 11:15:52AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
>> On Vi, 22 oct 10, 01:25:28, lee wrote:
>>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when
>>>>> you move the scrollbar down. Where�s the logic in that? Why isn�t the
>>>>> text moving up together with the scroll bar?
>>>>
>>>> Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it.
>>>>
>>>> Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the
>>>> book's page so that you only see the first few lines.
>>>>
>>>> As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the
>>>> slit.
>>>
>>> But who�s reading books like that?
>>
>> We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight
>> to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big,
>> whereas ours is just a few rows big ;)
>>
>> Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our
>> view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big
>> text at once.
>
> Still we don�t put construction paper with a small slit in it onto the
> pages of books we�re reading, and the text on the pages isn�t moving.
>
Buy a Kindle...
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Chris Davies
> And doing GUI programming means that you can do the best you can think
> of and there will always be some smart person knowing it better.
Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably
at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just
before release.
Chris
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Dotan Cohen
> Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably
> at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just
> before release.
>
Are you kidding? In reference to KDE, at least, I have stopped
providing usability feedback (and I have lots of Joe Everyday users
from neighbours to fellow students to my mother in law) because their
"usability expert" or whatever insists that users cannot report on
what they want or need because they do not understand. I'll look up
her exact words if you want. I've filed literally tens of usability
bugs on KDE (I've filed or triaged over 1500 bugs for KDE altogether)
and she closes them with "we're not considering that now" and other
such nonsense. What's even funnier is that, independantly of my
reporting the issues and having them closed WONTFIX, that some months
later the features arrive in KDE from devs from their own accord (such
as Windows 7 style window dragging), or the universal app menu. I
reported a dozen usability issues on the new KAddressbook alone, all
of which were ignored and then the app was release feature-incomplete
to users in KDE SC 4.4 "in order to receive wider feedback".
I'll happily post bug numbers if anyone is interested.
Until they get rid of their "learned Usability in some obsure
university" usability expert, or at least until she starts accepting
usability concerns from those who have engineering degrees and not
"Usability" degrees, I won't be wasting my time reporting KDE
usability issues anymore.
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Chris Davies
> Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably
> at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just
> before release.
Dotan Cohen <dotan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you kidding? In reference to KDE, at least, I have stopped providing
> usability feedback [...] because their "usability expert" or whatever
> insists that users cannot report on what they want or need because
> they do not understand.
I hadn't intended to touch such a sensistive issue! I don't particularly
want to get embroiled in a KDE usability issue, if for no other reason
than I don't personally use KDE.
For website design I can thoroughly recommend Steve Krug's "Don't make
me think". But that's now way off-topic.
Chris
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