[OT] Call to arms...so to speak
John
I did a great job, but in this day and age, having the piece of paper
makes all the difference.
I figured I would try to take classes online, as much time as I spend in
front of computers, it was a natural fit. I looked into a couple of
universities, and found windows to be a requirement. Then I found
aiuonline.edu, the counsel said you don't need IE. That was a week ago,
and I've pulled out most of my geek hair with more issues then I'd care
to rehash.
Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today use
IE. I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the
only option.
Sorry for jumping on a soap box, I'll get off now.
--
Have a great day...
John Cichy
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-us...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listm...@lists.debian.org
Steven Jones
material on the CDROM only worked with IE (Netscape barfed), so I told
the publishers (Osbourne's) I was not impressed.
Their reply was, so what....I took the book back.
I think the on-line teaching stuff is pathetic and over priced, I would
not bother with it myself.
Regards
Thing
Glenn English
> That was a week ago,
> and I've pulled out most of my geek hair with more issues then I'd care
> to rehash.
>
> Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today use
> IE. I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
> community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the
> only option.
There doesn't have to be anything wrong with most people using IE
(they're there for an education, after all).
The problem comes when the schools hire web designers who don't know
that there can be problems if they don't verify the pages with a number
of browsers.
<IMHO>
Those people and the people who hired them should be taken out and
hanged for gross incompetence.
</IMHO>
--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com
GPG ID: D0D7FF20
Robert Brockway
> Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today use IE. I
> just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian community
> contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the only option.
A bank in Australia recently released a document basically saying "you
aren't covered for computer fraud if you use software we have not
endorsed". They endorsed only IE of course and the irony of forcing
users to use less sefure software in the interests of security was
apparently lost on them.
This was passed around user groups, etc, and a lot of people said in no
uncertain terms they would cease using the bank immediately.
About a week later the bank engaged in some revisionist history and
claimed they were misinterpreted. They have since specifically endored
Firefox and other browsers I believe.
What's the address? I'm happy to tell them I would never deal with an
educational institution which doesn't understand why open standards (and
the commensurate freedom) are important.
> Sorry for jumping on a soap box, I'll get off now.
Not at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Our society is
too dependent on computers to allow them to all under the control of a
small clique. It is extremely dangerous for future freedom.
Cheers,
Rob
--
Robert Brockway B.Sc.
Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.
Phone: 416-669-3073 Email: rbro...@opentrend.net http://www.opentrend.net
OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems.
Contributing Member of Software in the Public Interest (http://www.spi-inc.org)
John
> I remember getting a RHCE study book, only to find that the study
> material on the CDROM only worked with IE (Netscape barfed), so I told
> the publishers (Osbourne's) I was not impressed.
>
> Their reply was, so what....I took the book back.
The reason they replied this way was because of perceived potential user
base. If they had no doubt that they were losing 25% of possible sales,
it might be different.
>
> I think the on-line teaching stuff is pathetic and over priced, I would
> not bother with it myself.
Sorry, I can't comment on pricing, I haven't got past the IE thing ;)
John
>
> There doesn't have to be anything wrong with most people using IE
> (they're there for an education, after all).
I didn't say there was a problem with most people using it, but there is
a problem when you require IE.
> The problem comes when the schools hire web designers who don't know
> that there can be problems if they don't verify the pages with a number
> of browsers.
In this case they know there are problems with other browsers, well at
least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I did not use
IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
Wonder when I'll be able to apt-get install IE, hopefully when Florida
freezes over!
John
>
>> Sorry for jumping on a soap box, I'll get off now.
>
>
> Not at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Our society is
> too dependent on computers to allow them to all under the control of a
> small clique. It is extremely dangerous for future freedom.
>
They don't have a 'feedback' email address that I can find, and
considering I just got his email address to work for him (long story),
he'll probably hate me for this, but
mahoffmann -at- aiuonline.edu (well at least I made it so the harvesters
wouldn't see it)
is one of the consolers there.
--
Have a great day...
John Cichy
813-335-2505 (Cell)
813-948-6438 (Home/Office)
Jo...@greengator.com
Roberto C. Sanchez
>> In this case they know there are problems with other browsers, well at
>> least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I did not use
>> IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
>>
>> Wonder when I'll be able to apt-get install IE, hopefully when Florida
>> freezes over!
>
>
> that will fetch (or at least point you to where to get) the various
> MS apps (MSN, IE, WMP) and then set them up in your ~/.wine/fake_windows
> directory:
>
> http://sidenet.ddo.jp/winetips/config.html
>
> I did some tweaking since I had an already working setup for a few other
> things in WINE, but it was not too difficult.
>
> If you run into trouble, just post about it and I might be able to
> provide some extra pointers.
Sorry for replying to myself, but I forgot to mention that could use
bochs, qemu, win4lin or VMWare to run Windows within Linux and then
run IE inside of that. Though, from the tone of your other messages, I
am guessing that is not the solution you were looking for :-)
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr
Roberto C. Sanchez
> Glenn English wrote:
>
>>
>> There doesn't have to be anything wrong with most people using IE
>> (they're there for an education, after all).
>
>
> I didn't say there was a problem with most people using it, but there is
> a problem when you require IE.
>
go into an argument with one of the web developers at work a few weeks
ago. Essentially, all the pages are designed to work in IE. Most are
accessible only from the intranet (where they can control the machines)
but a couple are designed to be accessible from outside, for people to
be able to access certain funcitonality from home/on the road.
Anyhow, there was one page where you could query some info based on a
calendar date. The thing was set up so that you click on a little
calendar icon and then it pops up the calendar. Unfortunately the thing
uses Javascript. Even more unfortunate is that it uses some broken
IE-only thing where it refers to the current object as 'this', rather
than using the standards-compliant getByID() (or some such thing).
The guy told me that it didn't matter since it works in IE and that is
what they use to develop and test. Also, that if they tried to test
in every browser that people used, it would triple their development
time/budget. I tried to kindly explain to him that if they developed
to the standard it would require minimal overhead to get it working
perfectly in the majors (IE, Moz, Firefox, Safari). He disagreed. It
really sucks since all of the pages are riddled with these little
annoyances that don't completely break them, but degrade them enough to
be a pain.
</rant>
>
>> The problem comes when the schools hire web designers who don't know
>> that there can be problems if they don't verify the pages with a number
>> of browsers.
>
>
> In this case they know there are problems with other browsers, well at
> least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I did not use
> IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
>
> Wonder when I'll be able to apt-get install IE, hopefully when Florida
> freezes over!
This isn't quite 'apt-get internet-explorer', but this guy has a utility
that will fetch (or at least point you to where to get) the various
MS apps (MSN, IE, WMP) and then set them up in your ~/.wine/fake_windows
directory:
http://sidenet.ddo.jp/winetips/config.html
I did some tweaking since I had an already working setup for a few other
things in WINE, but it was not too difficult.
If you run into trouble, just post about it and I might be able to
provide some extra pointers.
-Roberto
Pollywog
I use Win4Lin in part to deal with this problem of commercial websites (such
as banks and government) that are viewable or usable only with IE.
8)
Hamster
"Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
> I tried to kindly explain to him that if they developed
> to the standard it would require minimal overhead to get it working
> perfectly in the majors (IE, Moz, Firefox, Safari). He disagreed.
Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that if
you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except* IE.
Stupid, useless POS software that it is. Stupid useless webdesigners
with absolutely no clue.
*sigh*
H.
Roberto C. Sanchez
How does that work out? I have used VMWare in the past (at a lab where
I did reasearch) and recently started using qemu. VMWare had good
performance. I was even able to simultaneously run 4 or 5 VMs on a
machine with an Athlon XP 1800+ and 512 MB RAM. qemu is very easy to
get up and running, but it is a real resource hog.
That is not a slight agains qemu, rather it is caused by the differing
philosophies (VMWare does vitualization and executes mostly directly on
the host CPU and only handles x86, where qemu is an emulator that can
emulate x86, x86_64, Sparc, etc.).
I am just wondering where Win4Lin fits into the batch.
Roberto C. Sanchez
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:12:32 -0500
> "Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
>
>
>> I tried to kindly explain to him that if they developed
>>to the standard it would require minimal overhead to get it working
>>perfectly in the majors (IE, Moz, Firefox, Safari). He disagreed.
>
>
> Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that if
> you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except* IE.
>
> Stupid, useless POS software that it is. Stupid useless webdesigners
> with absolutely no clue.
>
Sorry, but that is not correct. I happen to loathe MS and IE. However,
my website is coded to be valid XHTML 1.0 and CSS, and *after* I had it
validated it only took me all of 15 minutes to go back and make it so
that it worked nearly perfect in IE, Dillo, lynx and elinks (without
breaking the validation and without checking for and discriminating
User-Agent strings).
The fact is, if you code to the standard, it is not hard (as long you
do not do extremely clever things) to make the page work and look good
in all browsers.
Glenn Davy
copy of dos to windows 9x. So by installing a patched kernel windows can run
natively against it - when I used to use it its was significantly faster,
and more reliable than simply installing windows 98se onto the same box.
The advantage this has over vmware et. al. is that there is no virtual
hardware required, therefore the app you are using performs pretty much as
any other app on linux.
The downside (and why I had to go to vmware) is that I had to run server
2003 and XP, so win4lin was no longer an option.
As for running ie - While you can use either of the above, you can't (as I
recall) operate individual apps outside of the windows 'desktop' AND you
have to fully install windows. To get ie working on my underpowered laptop
(for web testing mainly) I purchased a CrossOver wine license. It also
allows me to use flash and Microsoft access, the latter being an
occupational requirement, er hazard.
Glenn
Hamster
"Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
> > Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that
> > if you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except*
> > IE.
> Sorry, but that is not correct. I happen to loathe MS and IE.
> However, my website is coded to be valid XHTML 1.0 and CSS, and
> *after* I had it validated it only took me all of 15 minutes to go
> back and make it so that it worked nearly perfect in IE, Dillo, lynx
> and elinks (without breaking the validation and without checking for
> and discriminating User-Agent strings).
Yes, but if you try to use javascript that conforms completely to the
ECMA standard, and avoid all netscape/ie specific methods, it will not
work in IE.
And the whole point of standards is that you shouldn't have to do
"clever things" to get standards compliant software to work with it!
I'm also curious which version of CSS you validate to. IE support for
CSS2 is the worst of just about all browsers. It will not render stuff
correctly.
Kadmos
> A bank in Australia recently released a document basically saying "you
> aren't covered for computer fraud if you use software we have not
> endorsed". They endorsed only IE of course and the irony of forcing
> users to use less sefure software in the interests of security was
> apparently lost on them.
>
> This was passed around user groups, etc, and a lot of people said in no
> uncertain terms they would cease using the bank immediately.
>
> About a week later the bank engaged in some revisionist history and
> claimed they were misinterpreted. They have since specifically endored
> Firefox and other browsers I believe.
Could you please enlighten us as to which bank that was? (and if you can
rememeber which user groups it was on is also appreciated)
--
TIA
Kadmos
Kadmos
> Robert Brockway wrote:
> > A bank in Australia recently released a document basically saying "you
>> aren't covered for computer fraud if you use software we have not
>> endorsed". They endorsed only IE of course and the irony of forcing
>> users to use less sefure software in the interests of security was
>> apparently lost on them.
> Could you please enlighten us as to which bank that was? (and if you can
> rememeber which user groups it was on is also appreciated)
And in reply to myself I think the list might find the following useful:
http://www.starnix.com/banks-n-browsers.html
It lists countries/banks and what browsers they work with.
Gene Heskett
>I have spent the last 20+ years teaching myself about computers. I
> think I did a great job, but in this day and age, having the piece
> of paper makes all the difference.
>
>I figured I would try to take classes online, as much time as I
> spend in front of computers, it was a natural fit. I looked into a
> couple of universities, and found windows to be a requirement. Then
> I found aiuonline.edu, the counsel said you don't need IE. That was
> a week ago, and I've pulled out most of my geek hair with more
> issues then I'd care to rehash.
>
>Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today
> use IE. I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of
> the Debian community contacted them, then refused to sign up
> because IE was the only option.
>
price range of.
Oh Oh, I can hear the grammer police, hot on my trail...
>Sorry for jumping on a soap box, I'll get off now.
>--
>
>Have a great day...
>
>John Cichy
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.34% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Yahoo.com attorneys please note, additions to this message
by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Robert Brockway
> Could you please enlighten us as to which bank that was? (and if you can
> rememeber which user groups it was on is also appreciated)
Sure. The bank was Suncorp-Metway. I only read about it on HUMBUG
(http://www.humbug.org.au) but heard that other groups had similar
threads. I gather there must have been a significant reaction for the
bank the "clarify" the matter so quickly.
The original thread on the HUMBUG General list can be found with this
subject line:
"Anti-unix changes in Suncorp-Metway's updated banking"
The thread starts here:
http://archive.humbug.org.au/humbug-general/2005-01/msg00018.html
Re-reading, I stand corrected - Netscape 6.1 was included as authorized
software but none of its close relatives were mentioned.
Rob
--
Robert Brockway B.Sc.
Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.
Phone: 416-669-3073 Email: rbro...@opentrend.net http://www.opentrend.net
OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems.
Contributing Member of Software in the Public Interest (http://www.spi-inc.org)
Gene Heskett
>Glenn English wrote:
>> There doesn't have to be anything wrong with most people using IE
>> (they're there for an education, after all).
>
>I didn't say there was a problem with most people using it, but
> there is a problem when you require IE.
>
>> The problem comes when the schools hire web designers who don't
>> know that there can be problems if they don't verify the pages
>> with a number of browsers.
>
w3c consortiums checker can be quite illuminating. FWIW, no
'Frontpage' produced web site has ever gotten past about line 3 of
the src code it emits.
>In this case they know there are problems with other browsers, well
> at least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I did
> not use IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
In which case my reply would be that "I'm on the way to the bank to
stop the tuition check as you took my money under false pretenses."
Then do it. Often thats the only language they understand that
doesn't have some ambiguity they can explore.
>Wonder when I'll be able to apt-get install IE, hopefully when
> Florida freezes over!
>
>
>
>--
>
>Have a great day...
>
>John Cichy
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.34% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Yahoo.com attorneys please note, additions to this message
by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Roberto C. Sanchez
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:40:09 -0500
> "Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that
>>>if you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except*
>>>IE.
>
>
>>Sorry, but that is not correct. I happen to loathe MS and IE.
>>However, my website is coded to be valid XHTML 1.0 and CSS, and
>>*after* I had it validated it only took me all of 15 minutes to go
>>back and make it so that it worked nearly perfect in IE, Dillo, lynx
>>and elinks (without breaking the validation and without checking for
>>and discriminating User-Agent strings).
>
>
> Yes, but if you try to use javascript that conforms completely to the
> ECMA standard, and avoid all netscape/ie specific methods, it will not
> work in IE.
>
the occasional opening of a link in a new window. Since the
"target=_blank" has been removed from recent HTML specs, if I need
a link to open a new window, I use an href= with the link and an
onClick with javascript. That setup ensures that even if the browser
has javascript disabled (or does not support it) the link still works.
> And the whole point of standards is that you shouldn't have to do
> "clever things" to get standards compliant software to work with it!
>
How true. But to quote Admiral Grace Hopper: "The great thing about
standards is that there are so many to chose from."
> I'm also curious which version of CSS you validate to. IE support for
> CSS2 is the worst of just about all browsers. It will not render stuff
> correctly.
I validate to CSS2. Though I try to limit the advanced things that I
do. Specifically, though, I do use the "position: fixed" for the menu
on the left side of the page. IE does not support the fixed attribute,
so the menu just scrolls up with the top of the page. However, that
is a fairly graceful degradation, so I don't trouble myself over it.
Karsten M. Self
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, John wrote:
>
> >Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today use IE.
> >I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
> >community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the only
> >option.
>
> A bank in Australia recently released a document basically saying "you
> aren't covered for computer fraud if you use software we have not
> endorsed". They endorsed only IE of course and the irony of forcing
> users to use less sefure software in the interests of security was
> apparently lost on them.
The following is a presentation by Joe St. Sauver made to a group of US
banks on anti-phishing (and other security) issues. Suggest you find a
cluebie at your bank and ship it to 'em:
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joe/antiphishing/phishing-suggestions.pdf
Joe runs network operations at the University of Oregon, and has
followed network abuse issues for years. Recommended.
> This was passed around user groups, etc, and a lot of people said in no
> uncertain terms they would cease using the bank immediately.
>
> About a week later the bank engaged in some revisionist history and
> claimed they were misinterpreted. They have since specifically endored
> Firefox and other browsers I believe.
Heh.
> What's the address? I'm happy to tell them I would never deal with an
> educational institution which doesn't understand why open standards (and
> the commensurate freedom) are important.
Peace.
--
Karsten M. Self <kms...@ix.netcom.com> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
The rotten apple injures its neighbour.
Karsten M. Self
> Hamster wrote:
> >On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:40:09 -0500
> >"Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that
> >>>if you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except*
> >>>IE.
> >
> >
> >>Sorry, but that is not correct. I happen to loathe MS and IE.
> >>However, my website is coded to be valid XHTML 1.0 and CSS, and
> >>*after* I had it validated it only took me all of 15 minutes to go
> >>back and make it so that it worked nearly perfect in IE, Dillo, lynx
> >>and elinks (without breaking the validation and without checking for
> >>and discriminating User-Agent strings).
> >
> >
> >Yes, but if you try to use javascript that conforms completely to the
> >ECMA standard, and avoid all netscape/ie specific methods, it will not
> >work in IE.
> >
> I abhor javascript.
A couple of sites showing what can be done *without* Javascript:
http://www.dzr-web.com/demos/css/
And:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
Particularly, say:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/vertical09.htm
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal02.htm
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/vertical15.htm
...though browsing is strongly recommended.
I've been enhancing the CSS on my own homepage (link below), for fun
and, um. Profit!?
Peace.
--
Karsten M. Self <kms...@ix.netcom.com> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
You're not a user, nitwit.
- Jeff Waugh, describing GNOME users.
http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2004-January/008588.html
Roberto C. Sanchez
> on Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 11:13:58PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez (rob...@familiasanchez.net) wrote:
>>I abhor javascript.
>
>
> A couple of sites showing what can be done *without* Javascript:
>
> http://www.dzr-web.com/demos/css/
>
> And:
>
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
>
> Particularly, say:
>
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/vertical09.htm
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal02.htm
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/vertical15.htm
>
> ...though browsing is strongly recommended.
>
> I've been enhancing the CSS on my own homepage (link below), for fun
> and, um. Profit!?
It seems like some of the links you posted are Eric Meyer's doing :-)
In fact, I got the general idea for hte layout of my site from his
CSS-only menus site (a fact which I point out on my home page along
with a link to his site).
Bob Alexander
> Bottom line is that I was told today that most people online today use
> IE. I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
> community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the
> only option.
>
Well,
starting from Jul 2004, following the well known string of IE related
security incidents, the share of IE users has shrinked frm the previous
9% or so.
The best estimates nowadays bring gecko based browsers somewhere around
25% at least and I would bet that that will go up until MS does
something a bit more radical than patching IE6 :)
So those guys are losing a potential 25% of their customer base.
Should they care ? If they have competition they sure would.
This is a sign of stupidly incompetent web coders ...
Bob
Franki
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:12:32 -0500
> "Roberto C. Sanchez" <rob...@familiasanchez.net> wrote:
>
>
>> I tried to kindly explain to him that if they developed
>>to the standard it would require minimal overhead to get it working
>>perfectly in the majors (IE, Moz, Firefox, Safari). He disagreed.
>
>
> Technically he's correct - IE ignores so many of the standards, that if
> you author to the standards, it will work in everything *except* IE.
>
> Stupid, useless POS software that it is. Stupid useless webdesigners
> with absolutely no clue.
>
> *sigh*
>
> H.
I have converted most of my clients to Firefox now, Thats over 200
desktops..
And I only downloaded Firefox once to do it.. so I wonder how many
people really are using Firefox now, cos I bet there are other IT people
doing it also.
They are under strict instructions to use IE only if a site is incapable
fo working in Firefox.. (I installed the IEview extension so they can
just right click on pages that don't work and select "open in IE")
I also wrote to the bank, National Australia back NAB and told them that
even though their page said that clients in Firefox should upgrade to
netscape or IE, it worked flawlessly in firefox if they continued
anyway. They wrote back and said they were already planning to add
Firefox to the "accepted" list at the next upgrade period.
Let banks know when their site isn't acceptable, sometimes they do
listen and they always listen if enough people ask.
rgds
Franki
John
>>In this case they know there are problems with other browsers, well
>>at least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I did
>>not use IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
>
>
> In which case my reply would be that "I'm on the way to the bank to
> stop the tuition check as you took my money under false pretenses."
>
> Then do it. Often thats the only language they understand that
> doesn't have some ambiguity they can explore.
>
Well we never got to the point of any money changing hands, and I did
tell them that they should call me when I can use the browser of my choice.
I just wish more people would speak out, instead of quietly going away
or switching to IE to view the site. I have IE available, I use it to
test my own work while it is on the testing boxes, but IE is not allowed
to go surfing the net. At this point I have never found anything on the
net that I needed so badly that I would fire up IE. My bank allows me to
use whatever browser I want, and as for school, we have some very good
brick and mortar schools here in Tampa.
--
Have a great day...
John
Gene Heskett
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>In this case they know there are problems with other browsers,
>>> well at least the consoler's manager did. As soon as I told him I
>>> did not use IE, he said, 'well when you get IE, give us a call'.
>>
>> In which case my reply would be that "I'm on the way to the bank
>> to stop the tuition check as you took my money under false
>> pretenses."
>>
>> Then do it. Often thats the only language they understand that
>> doesn't have some ambiguity they can explore.
>
>Well we never got to the point of any money changing hands, and I
> did tell them that they should call me when I can use the browser
> of my choice.
Tit for tat :-)
>I just wish more people would speak out, instead of quietly going
> away or switching to IE to view the site. I have IE available, I
> use it to test my own work while it is on the testing boxes, but IE
> is not allowed to go surfing the net. At this point I have never
> found anything on the net that I needed so badly that I would fire
> up IE. My bank allows me to use whatever browser I want, and as for
> school, we have some very good brick and mortar schools here in
> Tampa.
Chuckle... I'm probably the thorn in my banks side, but its getting
better down in the trenches at the bank, everyone I talked to that
last time I had occasion to call, was using the winderz version of
firefox already. Ya gotta love it. :)
>
>
>
>--
>
>Have a great day...
>
>John
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.34% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Yahoo.com attorneys please note, additions to this message
by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Kirk Strauser
> I am just wondering where Win4Lin fits into the batch.
It doesn't. I contacted Netraverse's sales department several times to ask
for information, but they never bothered to reply until I wrote about my
experiences on Slashdot.
In my opinion, they're a company with a dead-end product that they no longer
care about. Their opinion may differ, of course, but the way that (don't)
treat potential customers says a lot to me.
I'd be *much* more likely to play with the new Kqemu accelerator module that
virtualizes x86 code rather than emulating it, for supposed 5x-10x
increases in Qemu speed. It's basically in the VMWare ballpark now.
--
Kirk Strauser
Gene Heskett
>On Monday 21 February 2005 18:36, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
>> I am just wondering where Win4Lin fits into the batch.
>
>It doesn't. I contacted Netraverse's sales department several times
> to ask for information, but they never bothered to reply until I
> wrote about my experiences on Slashdot.
>
somebody connected with the thing or company being panned.
But like you Kirk, I'd be a lot more concerned with the apparent lack
of interest in sales support as thats almost always a good indicator
of the level of the after the sale support you will get, in this case
zilch, bet on it.
>In my opinion, they're a company with a dead-end product that they
> no longer care about. Their opinion may differ, of course, but the
> way that (don't) treat potential customers says a lot to me.
>
>I'd be *much* more likely to play with the new Kqemu accelerator
> module that virtualizes x86 code rather than emulating it, for
> supposed 5x-10x increases in Qemu speed. It's basically in the
> VMWare ballpark now.
Interesting. Could I use it to run thor on a linux x86 box? Or is
this a reverse thing, that runs x86 code on moto stuff?
John
>
> Off list.
>
> I think this is a really shady tactic.
>
> I know of many instances where certain political groups rush their users
> off to send e-mails saying "I'm cancelling my subscription" because the
> press outfit in question publishes material outraging the certain
> political groups.
>
> It would be dishonest, no? To say I wouldn't join something I wasn't
> planning on joining anyway?
>
> I hope you don't run into me in person.
>
Josh,
I'm sorry, you caught me at a bad moment. I don't think I asked anyone
to act like they were going to cancel in my original note. I was just
making a comment about how people can't understand how some of us don't
run windoze. I don't know how old you are, but I can remember when
people were surprised and for that matter shocked when someone did run
windows rather then dos or OS2. 25% of the market is sizable, and should
be considered when in business.
Again, sorry you caught me at a bad time, but I do live in Lutz, FL, if
your ever come to town (just outside Tampa), lets get together, would
love to debate this with you.
--
Have a great day...
John Cichy
Josh Narins
>
> >
> >Off list.
> >
> >I think this is a really shady tactic.
> >
> >I know of many instances where certain political groups rush their users
> >off to send e-mails saying "I'm cancelling my subscription" because the
> >press outfit in question publishes material outraging the certain
> >political groups.
> >
> >It would be dishonest, no? To say I wouldn't join something I wasn't
> >planning on joining anyway?
> >
> >I hope you don't run into me in person.
> >
>
Because linux advocacy is not the purpose of the debian-user list.
> I live in Lutz Florida, would be glad to meet you so that could explain
> why you feel you can PUFF up in private, but don't have the balls to
> discuss it on a public forum.
I am fairly confident that it would have been the small-balled man who
would have felt the need to "PUFF" up in public.
As a former member of America's most agile and deadly branch of the
Armed Services, the Marine Corps, I know I don't need to strut around
impressing anyone, which was the second reason my post was off-list.
> BTW: I did post this is public...
Actually, you didn't. You have lied to me. What you _did_ post in
public, as a reply to me, included the following, which I have copied
here...
> I don't think I asked anyone to act like they were going to cancel
> in my original note. I was just making a comment about how people
> can't understand how some of us don't run windoze.
What you actually said, and I quote here from your original e-mail, is
as follows...
"I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the
only option."
The above quote clearly is inciting "a portion of the Debian
community" to seek to sign up, knowing full well they don't support
non-IE browsers, and then refuse to sign up.
This is immoral, and a regular tactic of certain, reprehensible
political factions.
> I don't know how old you are,
I'm 33, you peice of shit.
> --
>
> Have a great day...
>
> John Cichy
--
xplanet -body earth -transpng a.png -geometry "300x300-0+0" -origin sun
My politics : http://satp.blogspot.com
Programmer
SigmaX
Sorry, just had to laugh at this one.
My personal one and a half cents:
I think that the poster was fine in his post. I think the company in
question needed to hear from the Debian community (And others), as the
offended *NIX community would, in addition to being an annoyance and
nuisance, push the buisness toward supporting other browsers, and, in
the long run, gain more profit from the incident.
I do agree that a planned flame-chain on said organization would be
ill-meaned and unneffective.
>Because linux advocacy is not the purpose of the debian-user list.
>
No it isn't, but Linux-users are, and if a group of Debian-users are
offended at the frustrations dealt with by one of their 'clan,' then I
see nothing wrong in rallying around the said member in support if it's
a legitement cause. Though yeah, this might have gotten a bit out of
hand... given that I get the feeling that there were probably dozens of
flames sent ;-).
There, that's my rant... I might also say that we could have discussed
this with a little less flame and harshness.
Cheerio,
SigmaX
--
Registered Linux Freak #: 366,862
"If you think of MS-DOS as mono, and Windows as stereo, then Linux is Dolby Pro-Logic Surround Sound with Bass Boost and all the music is free."
John
> Because linux advocacy is not the purpose of the debian-user list.
I agree, but this was not a Linux advocacy issue, but rather a choice
issue. If you look at my original message, the subject line started with
[OT], this gave everyone the opportunity to filter it out, including you.
>
> As a former member of America's most agile and deadly branch of the
> Armed Services, the Marine Corps, I know I don't need to strut around
> impressing anyone, which was the second reason my post was off-list.
I want to thank you for that service, I too served, although not as a
noble Marine, but only as an army ADA supporting RDF out of FT Bragg.
>>BTW: I did post this is public...
>
>
> Actually, you didn't. You have lied to me. What you _did_ post in
> public, as a reply to me, included the following, which I have copied
> here...
Sorry about that, I did attempt to post to the list, but my email
program gave me a bcc line and I was not paying attention, my bad!!
>>I don't think I asked anyone to act like they were going to cancel
>>in my original note. I was just making a comment about how people
>>can't understand how some of us don't run windoze.
>
>
> What you actually said, and I quote here from your original e-mail, is
> as follows...
>
> "I just wonder how they would react if a even a portion of the Debian
> community contacted them, then refused to sign up because IE was the
> only option."
>
> The above quote clearly is inciting "a portion of the Debian
> community" to seek to sign up, knowing full well they don't support
> non-IE browsers, and then refuse to sign up.
>
Looking at it again, I can see where you could get that idea, not the
intention though. I guess I just wanted to hear what others had to say,
thank you for contributing.
>>I don't know how old you are,
>
>
> I'm 33, you peice of shit.
>
Again, as I said in a follow up note, composed and sent within about 5
minutes of my first reply, you caught me at a bad moment, and although,
by mistake, the first reply did not make it to the list, my apology to
you was made in public, as it is again, I am sorry I offended you.
Hopefully in nine years, on your birthday, you won't have the day I did
today. Not an excuse, just a reason.
--
Have a great day...
John
Michael Z Daryabeygi
Josh Narins wrote:
> As a former member of America's most agile and deadly branch of the
> Armed Services, the Marine Corps, I know I don't need to strut around
> impressing anyone, which was the second reason my post was off-list.
> This is immoral, and a regular tactic of certain, reprehensible
> political factions.
oh, ppphhllbtt!
not certain, they are _all_ reprehensible, if for different reasons.
>>I don't know how old you are,
> I'm 33, you peice of shit.
he clearly said he didn't know how old you are.
grow up.
I actually agree with you, but your marine training has failed you at
maintaining the high ground.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
Ivan Teliatnikov
know how exactly the above is achieved. All I remeber is that it runs
outside of kernel and will run on a whole range of linux platforms
including Debian). For more info google for win4lin's home page.
Ivan Teliatnikov <iv...@geosci.usyd.edu.au>
University of Sydney