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Just a question...........

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Charlie

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Jun 20, 2013, 1:30:02 AM6/20/13
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I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:

My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib

Is that correct?

TIA
Charlie
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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 20, 2013, 2:50:01 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 15:19 +1000, Charlie wrote:
> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>
> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>
> Is that correct?

This isn't a torrent!


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Alan Ianson

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:00:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:19:25 +1000
Charlie wrote:

>
> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>
> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>
> Is that correct?

No, that is a debian mirror. :)


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Charlie

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:30:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:44:56 +0200 "Ralf Mardorf
ralf.m...@alice-dsl.net" sent this:

>On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 15:19 +1000, Charlie wrote:
>> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>>
>> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
>> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>>
>> Is that correct?
>
>This isn't a torrent!

Thank You

Didn't think it was, but didn't know, now I do.
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Charlie

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:40:01 AM6/20/13
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 23:59:18 -0700 "Alan Ianson agia...@gmail.com"
sent this:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:19:25 +1000
>Charlie wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>>
>> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
>> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>>
>> Is that correct?
>
>No, that is a debian mirror. :)
>

Thanks Alan.

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preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn
out, shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!" -------------- anon

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Chris Bannister

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Jun 20, 2013, 7:30:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 03:19:25PM +1000, Charlie wrote:
>
> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>
> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>
> Is that correct?

No, he is confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/7792

There are no trackers involved with apt-get, although it would be a far
more efficient method (bandwidth wise). The downside is that you
probably wouldn't be able to update/upgrade your laptop at your local
library etc. because they tend to block BitTorrent traffic.

I think I remember reading about a discussion of implementing a system
where apt-get only downloads the changes to files. It wouldn't suprise
me if something like this was implemented at some point way down the
track.

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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Charlie

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Jun 20, 2013, 7:40:03 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 23:22:23 +1200 "Chris Bannister
cbann...@slingshot.co.nz" sent this:

>On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 03:19:25PM +1000, Charlie wrote:
>>
>> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>>
>> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
>> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>>
>> Is that correct?
>
>No, he is confused.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent
>http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/7792
>
>There are no trackers involved with apt-get, although it would be a far
>more efficient method (bandwidth wise). The downside is that you
>probably wouldn't be able to update/upgrade your laptop at your local
>library etc. because they tend to block BitTorrent traffic.
>
>I think I remember reading about a discussion of implementing a system
>where apt-get only downloads the changes to files. It wouldn't suprise
>me if something like this was implemented at some point way down the
>track.
>
>--
>"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
>who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
>oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Thanks for the links and the extra information, Chris.

Charlie
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Rob Owens

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Jun 20, 2013, 9:10:02 AM6/20/13
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----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlie" <arie...@skymesh.com.au>
>
> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>
> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>
> Is that correct?
>
As others have already said: no, that is not correct.

Your ISP CEO seems a little confused here. That is a Debian
mirror. Debian ISO images can be downloaded from many mirrors,
although I don't see them available on this particular one.
Debian ISO images can also be downloaded using BitTorrent. Of
course, the fact that you download something using BitTorrent
doesn't make it illegal -- it is simply a file sharing protocol.
Debian ISO images are legal to download via HTTP, FTP,
BitTorrent, Jigdo, and so on.

When I speak of "legal", I'm of course assuming sane laws.
Debian is given away for free, so it makes no sense to outlaw
one method of obtaining it while other methods remain legal.

-Rob


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Charlie

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Jun 20, 2013, 9:20:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:02:39 -0400 (EDT) "Rob Owens row...@ptd.net"
sent this:

>----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlie" <arie...@skymesh.com.au>
>>
>> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>>
>> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
>> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>>
>> Is that correct?
>>
>As others have already said: no, that is not correct.
>
>Your ISP CEO seems a little confused here. That is a Debian
>mirror. Debian ISO images can be downloaded from many mirrors,
>although I don't see them available on this particular one.
>Debian ISO images can also be downloaded using BitTorrent. Of
>course, the fact that you download something using BitTorrent
>doesn't make it illegal -- it is simply a file sharing protocol.
>Debian ISO images are legal to download via HTTP, FTP,
>BitTorrent, Jigdo, and so on.
>
>When I speak of "legal", I'm of course assuming sane laws.
>Debian is given away for free, so it makes no sense to outlaw
>one method of obtaining it while other methods remain legal.
>
>-Rob

Thanks Rob,

I have informed him of his misconception. I think he may have been
grasping at straws in his attempt to justify my low Internet speed in
trying to do a Wheezy update during the day, but better during the
night/early morning.

Thank you,
Charlie
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also be well-mannered. .......Voltaire

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黃健毅

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Jun 20, 2013, 9:30:03 AM6/20/13
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Have you tried netselect-apt (I think that's the name), which
determines your fastest Debian mirror and builds a sources file for
you containing the fastest mirror?
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAG0rmd5DfE3O9yp-PGhvhrN-...@mail.gmail.com

Conrad Nelson

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Jun 20, 2013, 10:20:02 AM6/20/13
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On 06/20/2013 06:22 AM, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 03:19:25PM +1000, Charlie wrote:
>> I don't know enough about this hope someone can help:
>>
>> My ISP CEO suggests that this address is BitTorrent:
>> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main non-free contrib
>>
>> Is that correct?
> No, he is confused.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent
> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/7792
>
> There are no trackers involved with apt-get, although it would be a far
> more efficient method (bandwidth wise). The downside is that you
> probably wouldn't be able to update/upgrade your laptop at your local
> library etc. because they tend to block BitTorrent traffic.
>
> I think I remember reading about a discussion of implementing a system
> where apt-get only downloads the changes to files. It wouldn't suprise
> me if something like this was implemented at some point way down the
> track.
>
I think the number one reason why Linux package management via Torrent
never took off is because it is frankly an incredibly terrible idea.

Look, peer-to-peer is a great idea on paper, but it has several huge
strikes against it:

1. ISPs hate P2P even for legitimate uses, so if a Linux distro would go
torrent on package managers those behind draconian ISPs will be out of
luck, leading to less users.

2. EVERY package will become subject to the "popularity contest" problem
in peer to peer. You'll likely have no problem installing common apps,
but if you like to use something more specialized or obscure but still
tracked in the official repository, you'll be lucky to get a decent
speed at all, to say nothing about the possibility you'll NEVER get the
package. This is why torrents are fast in theory but dreadfully slow in
practice (I have never in all my time seen a single torrent beat the
speeds of straight up downloading.)

3. It's efficient bandwidth only on the PROVIDER'S servers. Torrents are
notorious for gobbling up download bandwidth on actual people
downloading. I don't want to slow my entire network to a crawl just
downloading a kernel, thank you.

4. You're labeled a leecher just because you don't want to spend several
hours UPLOADING a package that took you upwards of half an hour to get
in the first place. If I were to install Debian via torrent I'd be
spending MONTHS clogging up my upward channels trying to get to a 1.0
ratio I'll never achieve because I'll be updating packages still.

Now, I do like the idea of updates being BINARY PATCHES to the packages
installed. The downside being that if you need to fall back to an older
version you might be out of luck if simply unpatching won't work.


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Lisi Reisz

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Jun 20, 2013, 11:00:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thursday 20 June 2013 15:18:29 Conrad Nelson wrote:
> (I have never in all my time seen a single torrent beat the
> speeds of straight up downloading.)

I have never had one take as long. Torrent wins every time on time. And
generally, where there is a Torrent available, there is also a straight
download.

Lisi


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 20, 2013, 11:20:02 AM6/20/13
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On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 15:55 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Thursday 20 June 2013 15:18:29 Conrad Nelson wrote:
> > (I have never in all my time seen a single torrent beat the
> > speeds of straight up downloading.)
>
> I have never had one take as long. Torrent wins every time on time. And
> generally, where there is a Torrent available, there is also a straight
> download.

Until now I experienced the same as Conrad experienced. Perhaps I
sometimes had good luck when downloading small files by torrent and I'm
not aware that the download was faster, but usually it takes much, much
longer and sometimes torrents aren't seeded completely.

When downloading a torrent we've got the duty to seed the torrent, even
after it is downloaded, at least we should do it, as long as there isn't
a sane ratio.

I like the idea of torrents and they are useful, but they aren't useful
for package downloads. Btw. most torrents I've seen are illegal uploads,
I can't remember when I used a torrent the last time.

How should the package database, checksums and security keys be
downloaded, when packages are downloaded by torrent? By torrent too? If
so, wouldn't it be a security risk?

Regards,
Ralf


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Rob Owens

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Jun 20, 2013, 2:50:02 PM6/20/13
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----- Original Message -----
> From: "Conrad Nelson" <ya...@marupa.net>
>
> I think the number one reason why Linux package management via
> Torrent
> never took off is because it is frankly an incredibly terrible idea.
>
> Look, peer-to-peer is a great idea on paper, but it has several huge
> strikes against it:
>
> 1. ISPs hate P2P even for legitimate uses, so if a Linux distro would
> go
> torrent on package managers those behind draconian ISPs will be out
> of
> luck, leading to less users.
>
Good point. It would have to be optional so users whose ISPs block
BitTorrent could still access the standard repos.

> 2. EVERY package will become subject to the "popularity contest"
> problem
> in peer to peer. You'll likely have no problem installing common
> apps,
> but if you like to use something more specialized or obscure but
> still
> tracked in the official repository, you'll be lucky to get a decent
> speed at all, to say nothing about the possibility you'll NEVER get
> the
> package. This is why torrents are fast in theory but dreadfully slow
> in
> practice (I have never in all my time seen a single torrent beat the
> speeds of straight up downloading.)
>
Seems like this could be avoided if the existing repos simply seeded
every file that they host. Then you could always get the files via
BitTorrent even if no other regular users were seeding. Unless I'm
missing something, torrent download speed could not be any slower than
direct download speed, with the exception of the extra time it takes
to contact the tracker and locate peers.

-Rob


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:30:02 PM6/20/13
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On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 14:43 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
> Seems like this could be avoided if the existing repos simply seeded
> every file that they host. Then you could always get the files via
> BitTorrent even if no other regular users were seeding. Unless I'm
> missing something, torrent download speed could not be any slower than
> direct download speed, with the exception of the extra time it takes
> to contact the tracker and locate peers.

You can't compare 20 users downloading from ftp, http/s with 20 users
seeding and leeching a torrent at the same time. Theoretically the
torrent should be faster, but in practise this seldom or never happens.
I suspect that the handling of seeders, leechers and trackers, IOW the
sync, will slow it down. I might be mistaken. However, imagine you
should leech a part of the download from some people seeding, with a
terrible low bandwidth. Some seeders could get on and off line and this
must be handled too etc. pp.. Perhaps somebody with knowledge could
explain why I and at least another one from this list experienced
torrents as slower than a direct download. For sure it's less important
for those who download with a low bandwidth, but many of us for sure
have very fast DSL connections, even if those connections might not be
as fast as the ISP does claim.


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:40:03 PM6/20/13
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> On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 14:43 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
> > Seems like this could be avoided if the existing repos simply seeded
> > every file that they host. Then you could always get the files via
> > BitTorrent even if no other regular users were seeding. Unless I'm
> > missing something, torrent download speed could not be any slower than
> > direct download speed,

PS:

> with the exception of the extra time it takes
> > to contact the tracker and locate peers.


How exactly does a torrent work? I guess you assume that all leechers
would get the same % of download from the original server + some % from
other seeders, but does a torrent client know something like an original
server ;)? This must be managed in some way and might slow it down.


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Steven Post

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:40:03 PM6/20/13
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On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 14:43 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
There is also the possibility to do the same as Blizzard with its
updater. They use bittorrent, but as a 'fallback' they use http, there
is also a thing called 'http seeding' or 'web seeding' [1], not sure if
they use that or some other solution to offer the http download.

This means users that have their connections throttled when using
bittorrent can still get full speed over http. Imagine all mirrors being
part of the same swarm and most/all of them have a tracker (registered
with Debian so they are available transparently to the user), they have
less strain as a lot of bandwidth can be provided by others and users
are still certain of fast downloads (some faster than before if their
pipe allows it).

This is still a benefit even if people don't seed to the 1:1 ratio, but
just while they are downloading.
Downside is the added overhead of course, a 100 KB package on it's own
will not benefit from this (think a security update in some random small
package), but upgrades between versions (6.0 to 7.x or 7.0 to 7.1) might
benefit greatly.

I thinks it's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if it's an
improvement when considering the complete picture.
I think delta's might be a better idea in the shorter term. Some other
distributions already do this.

Regards,
Steven

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent#Web_seeding
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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 20, 2013, 3:40:04 PM6/20/13
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PPS: And won't downloading and uploading at the same time slow it down
too compared to just downloading?


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Andrei POPESCU

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Jun 21, 2013, 9:40:02 AM6/21/13
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On Jo, 20 iun 13, 23:22:23, Chris Bannister wrote:
>
> I think I remember reading about a discussion of implementing a system
> where apt-get only downloads the changes to files. It wouldn't suprise
> me if something like this was implemented at some point way down the
> track.

apt-cache show debdelta

I actually have it installed, but I always forget to run
debdelta-upgrade between update and upgrade.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Andrei POPESCU

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Jun 21, 2013, 9:50:02 AM6/21/13
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On Jo, 20 iun 13, 09:18:29, Conrad Nelson wrote:
> (I have never in all my time seen a single torrent beat the speeds of
> straight up downloading.)

I have. I my experience it may depend on:

- bittorrent client (some clients are able to download the same torrent
much faster)
- seeder/leecher counts and ratio (obvious)
- where these seeders/leechers are (i.e. it helps if some of them are in
the same country or even connected to the same ISP, for obvious
reasons)
- how your ISP handles bittorent (some ISPs here even advertise good
bittorrent speeds)
- phase of the moon, etc.

Also bittorrent can stress your system in interesting ways (e.g. it
generates a lot of I/O) and requires decent networking stack and
hardware.
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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 21, 2013, 10:40:02 AM6/21/13
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On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 16:48 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> - bittorrent client (some clients are able to download the same torrent
> much faster)

So you perhaps can name some clients that are slow and others that are
fast? I seldom use BitTorrent, but sometimes and have tested several
clients, without noticing a big difference, excepted from the provided
options, such as faking the IP.

> - phase of the moon, etc.

I like obscure phenomenons :D, btw. I experienced poltergeist effects,
but no poltergeists was that kind, that he/she/it does something while
I'm watching :D, seemingly poltergeists are cowards ;). It's likely that
not the gravitation of the moon opened a drawer, neither it's likely
that a poltergeist did it, I guess a spy from the NSA did, when I leaved
the kitchen for a short toilet visit, so there wasn't time to close the
drawer, the spy had to escape, before I was back. Now the USA does know
how many teaspoons I own.

> Also bittorrent can stress your system in interesting ways (e.g. it
> generates a lot of I/O) and requires decent networking stack and
> hardware.

If you do something were those resources are very important, than you
can notice unwanted side effects for nearly everything, perhaps not for
echo "hallo world". IMO real-time audio still is a textbook example for
hypersensitivity, but I suspect using a torrent client would allow even
to do an audio/MIDI production at the same time, however I prefer not to
do this. Theoretically, if you set up rules, for the audio example the
torrent client should experienced issues, not the audio production, but
in reality we still have phases of the moon and nobody does know what
secrets are caused by dark matter.

Seriously, are there serious, legal torrents for something that is
available by ftp/http/s too, so that we can do comparisons?

Regards,
Ralf


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Andrei POPESCU

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Jun 21, 2013, 10:50:02 AM6/21/13
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On Vi, 21 iun 13, 16:32:33, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> Seriously, are there serious, legal torrents for something that is
> available by ftp/http/s too, so that we can do comparisons?

Debian images.
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Rob Owens

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Jun 21, 2013, 11:00:02 AM6/21/13
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----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.m...@alice-dsl.net>
> Seriously, are there serious, legal torrents for something that is
> available by ftp/http/s too, so that we can do comparisons?
>

Linux ISOs -- Debian and CentOS at the very least. In my experience, these torrents download very fast.

Also, check out the live music collection on archive.org -- those are available via direct download and bittorrent. But I've noticed that some of the torrents are poorly seeded or not seeded at all.

-Rob


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 21, 2013, 11:20:02 AM6/21/13
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On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 17:44 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 21 iun 13, 16:32:33, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >
> > Seriously, are there serious, legal torrents for something that is
> > available by ftp/http/s too, so that we can do comparisons?
>
> Debian images.

Thank you, that's a good idea.

http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd/
http://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/

Any recommendation for a Torrent client? For downloads from http/ftp I
usually use wget and sometimes Firefox instead.


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 21, 2013, 11:30:02 AM6/21/13
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On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 10:56 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
> archive.org -- those are available via direct download and bittorrent.
> But I've noticed that some of the torrents are poorly seeded or not
> seeded at all.

Interesting website :), thank you.



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Carl Fink

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Jun 21, 2013, 11:30:03 AM6/21/13
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On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 05:09:51PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> Any recommendation for a Torrent client? For downloads from http/ftp I
> usually use wget and sometimes Firefox instead.

I always use btdownloadcurses. Minimal overhead.
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Rob Owens

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Jun 21, 2013, 11:40:02 AM6/21/13
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----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.m...@alice-dsl.net>

> Any recommendation for a Torrent client? For downloads from http/ftp
> I
> usually use wget and sometimes Firefox instead.
>
Transmission is pretty easy to get started with. I can't comment on whether it's faster or slower than others.

-Rob


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Ralf Mardorf

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Jun 21, 2013, 12:00:02 PM6/21/13
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On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 11:28 -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 05:09:51PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> > Any recommendation for a Torrent client? For downloads from http/ftp I
> > usually use wget and sometimes Firefox instead.
>
> I always use btdownloadcurses. Minimal overhead.

I don't run Debian at the moment and btdownload* seems to be something
very hidden.


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thea...@zoho.com

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Jun 21, 2013, 12:10:01 PM6/21/13
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On 21/06/2013 16:51, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> I don't run Debian at the moment and btdownload* seems to be something
> very hidden.

Sorry, replied-to-sender-only! Repost to list. Keyboard shortcuts >.<

http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=btdownloadcurses&mode=filename&suite=stable&arch=any


It is in both the bittornado and bittorrent packages. Take your pick :)

regards,
theartloy


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staticsafe

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Jun 21, 2013, 12:10:02 PM6/21/13
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On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 05:09:51PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 17:44 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Vi, 21 iun 13, 16:32:33, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > >
> > > Seriously, are there serious, legal torrents for something that is
> > > available by ftp/http/s too, so that we can do comparisons?
> >
> > Debian images.
>
> Thank you, that's a good idea.
>
> http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd/
> http://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/
>
> Any recommendation for a Torrent client? For downloads from http/ftp I
> usually use wget and sometimes Firefox instead.
>

rtorrent, if you are looking for something on the CLI.

http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/rtorrent/rtorrent.1.html
http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/wiki/RTorrentUserGuide
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Andrei POPESCU

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Jun 21, 2013, 2:10:01 PM6/21/13
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On Vi, 21 iun 13, 17:09:51, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> Any recommendation for a Torrent client?

I'm currently using transmission-daemon everywhere, mostly because it
runs as a daemon :)

I've had good results with rtorrent, but it's not easy to configure/use.

Ktorrent is a very versatile GUI application, but it was slower than
rtorrent on the same torrent. Didn't bother investigating why because I
was migrating away from a GUI application anyway.
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