Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther
I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
publicly addressed.
The alioth admin's (well stephen gran and roland mas) know who they are,
so you can just ask them.
Even if what Wouter said was right, that my suspension was justified
even if unfair, there is absolutely no justification that could in any
way justify the current act, and since it is just a mirror copy of what
happened a year ago, when the d-i leadership chose to meet in secret and
do this same thing to me, there is absolutely no jusitfication of what
was done then.
I now publicly ask, that my right to participate in the debian project
is restored, including my access to the d-i svn and kernel svn
repositories, and that the supsension be lifted, and my right to
uploading .udebs be restored, since there is absolutely no justification
in any of those acts, which have been qualified as unfair and failing to
achieve any intented result by many, and where the cause of over a year
of flamewars which would have been avoided if the other party had been
willing to even attempt to solve it, instead of scheming in the darkness
to get their way.
I ask that a meeting be held at debconf edinbourg, in order to put all
these issues in the light, and solve them in a humanly decent way once
and for all, and to ensure that something like this can never happen
again.
And yes, i put myself at risk in this way, because the next way to try
to silence me could very well involve physical hurt.
Let's again create a Debian to be proud of ...
Saddened,
Sven Luther
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-proj...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listm...@lists.debian.org
Sam Hocevar
> I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> publicly addressed.
Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is
awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and
you are annoying everyone.
If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to
remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because
listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like
a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want
to be associated with such things.
Kind regards,
--
Sam.
Sven Luther
> On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> > I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> > behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> > publicly addressed.
>
> Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
Whyever should i do that ?
> ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is
> awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and
> you are annoying everyone.
It is especially awful complicated to ignore it you mean ? There is no
doubt about what i am requesting, as everyone is telling me, i keep
repeating the same thing over and over.
> If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to
> remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because
> listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like
> a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want
> to be associated with such things.
Sure, and i will have to go to slashdot or the general press, is this
that you want ?
Sam, is it so difficult to stop this in a human and decent way ? You are
acting exactly like Anthony Towns did last year, i guess that the DPL
position corrupts one after all :(
So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages
me to continue, and escalate the issue.
So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and
iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all
stop this.
This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has
erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole
responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me.
(not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are
arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they
maybe share the fault and do the right thing).
To which i reply how sorry i was it had to take so long for a decent
resolution to this, and how sorry i am to have been forced to pollute
everyone's mailing lists, and so on.
Then everyone goes back to happily coding forever after, and the issue
is forgotten and left to rest.
Instead you chose the way of escalation, it will never be forgotten, and
it generates frustration and anger, and will constitute a major mess in
the future, unless you get me killed to silence me.
So, be courageous, and do the right thing in these, and let the issue be
solved as it should have over a year ago.
And if some threaten to leave the project because i am not punished,
then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
encouraged.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
>
> > I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> > behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> > publicly addressed.
>
> Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
Notice that except two posts which where on-topic in their respective
forums, i stayed on debian-project, and it was other folk who branched
the thread elsewhere.
Please inform yourself before making claims like this, and spreading
falsehood and calumny. (which was maybe not your intent, but you should
have checked).
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Joey Schulze
> > > I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> > > behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> > > publicly addressed.
> >
> > Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
>
> Whyever should i do that ?
Because Sam asked you?
> So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages
> me to continue, and escalate the issue.
Oh my! It is not yet escalated?
> So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and
> iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all
> stop this.
The aggression has been stopped. Nobody showed aggression and removed
your account on the kernel team. It was an accident and it has been
corrected since them. No aggression except yours.
> This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has
> erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole
> responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me.
Sven, this will not happen. Learn to live with that.
> (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are
> arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they
> maybe share the fault and do the right thing).
People who are emotionally stable won't say this about others...
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Sam Hocevar
> then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
> will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
> encouraged.
These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next
step to enlightenment.
Kind regards,
--
Sam.
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> > then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
> > will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
> > encouraged.
>
> These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next
> step to enlightenment.
Sam, what do you mean by that ? Can we stop playing with words and come
to a resolution of this ? I have another longer mail in the pipe, please
read it *AND ACTUALLY REPLY TO THE POINTS I RAISE*.
There is no hope of a solution on this, if you (plural you) refuse any
discussion.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> > > > behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> > > > publicly addressed.
> > >
> > > Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
> >
> > Whyever should i do that ?
>
> Because Sam asked you?
Yeah, right, but i asked him that he sets up a delegation to solve this
mess over a month ago. I also asked frans to please forget pride and old
grudge and let's all work together nicely.
Asking doesn't mean the other have to comply, nor is asking showing you
are right.
But then, i did in fact restrict my postings to debian-project, it was
others who branched it out without me noticing.
> > So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages
> > me to continue, and escalate the issue.
>
> Oh my! It is not yet escalated?
Indeed, it has escalated, but it is about to escalate further. How sad,
that Debian choses the way of oppression and escalation, incolving
orders of magnitude more effort, than trying to be fair and decent
instead.
> > So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and
> > iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all
> > stop this.
>
> The aggression has been stopped. Nobody showed aggression and removed
> your account on the kernel team. It was an accident and it has been
> corrected since them. No aggression except yours.
The agression has not been stopped, i am still unfairly suspended from
debian.
> > This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has
> > erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole
> > responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me.
>
> Sven, this will not happen. Learn to live with that.
Why not ? This is the crux of the question. If you can give me an
explanation of why this cannot happen, one that don't make you want to
puke that is, then we can speak.
> > (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are
> > arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they
> > maybe share the fault and do the right thing).
>
> People who are emotionally stable won't say this about others...
As opposed to people who have been harrased and hurt for over a year,
right ? The facts remain though, i would be very glad to be proven
wrong, but the last year has showed me otherwise, and it is by direct
action of those guys, that they decided to ask for my expulsion *BECAUSE
I DARED PRESENT MYSELF AS DPL CANDIDATE*.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Andreas Tille
> i guess that the DPL position corrupts one after all :(
Sven, I really fail to understand in how far you think you will
change the situation if you blur your instance with wild guesses.
Kind regards
Andreas.
PS: This is my only posting in this thread.
Sven Luther
>
> > I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was
> > behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be
> > publicly addressed.
>
> Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project,
> ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is
> awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and
> you are annoying everyone.
>
> If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to
> remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because
> listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like
> a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want
> to be associated with such things.
Sam, ...
If you propose me a real schedule, and a way to solve this mess, then i
will stop all mails about this topic. Upto now, i have not seen any will
to do anything but maintain the status-quo, and i went to you privately
a few weeks ago.
I have made various proposals in the other thread, since the begining of
this mess i made various reasonable proposals, starting from the first
which involved only d-i :
- i am given the svn commit access back, and will use it to work
silently about those areas nobody else is working on and which
interest me (prep and apus support on powerpc).
- i refrain from posting on debian-boot.
(well, from memory, but this was the gist of it).
Then i made the wiki page, on advice from folk on #debian-devel i asked
for help, and so on.
The solution to the current mess is easy enough, and starts by a few
facts :
- we are in what can only be called a personal dispute between me and
a few other DDs. It is a personal dispute, which happened because
Frans felt i didn't respect him enough, and (ab)used his technical
power instead of trying to speak to me.
- i made numerous attempts at conciliation, am generally a nice guy,
and want this solved.
- the other party, who has so many reproaches, some of them even
true, has never tried speaking to me, and has rejected any apertures
or conciliation attempts i proposed, but instead used the system to
get their way.
- the many previous dealings had a feel of secrecy, of shady
dealings, of FUD and lobbying, which is not helpful to solve this
issue. Furthermore, for whatever reason it tried to solve the issue
by brute force instead of discussion.
- two proposals to solve this in RL, where ignored.
I guess there is little doubt about these facts, but if someone
contests, i would be happy to have actual discussion about them, instead
of people chosing to ignore them, and go into a caloumny and provocation
campaign against me to hide the truth on it.
Now, what can be done ? A true mediation (i know that it is not possible
between frans and me, at this time, despite my many efforts, but there
is a mediation needed between me and debian here), will clearly list
what is reproached to each other, hear each others claims, and work on
that to reach an acceptable middle range.
My claims :
- Debian has handled this issue unfairly, and has acted in a way that
was partly responsible for this mess.
- Debian has resorted to shady dealings, and dealt unjustified (and
plain stupid) punishment, who only served to worsen the issue.
- Assorted folk have used caloumny and lies, plain FUD if you prefer,
to discredit me, because they knew their position would be untenable
otherwise.
- The current expulsion process is evil, it calls for a FUD and
caloumny campaign, and leaves two persons (the DAMs) sole
responsible, which is hardly fair to them, since they are neither
formed nor experimented in this kind of issues.
My responsability :
- I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for
debian and them.
- Once this issue is finally solved, it will no more be a problem, and
i will not mention it again.
- I present my sincerest apologies for all the innocent bystanders,
but for all those who would critic me, i welcome any insight of how
this could have been dealt with otherwise, i know i did not find
any, despite asking for counsel on #debian-devel and otherwise.
There are more we could say, but we can go into this once there is a
will on Debian's part to actually do the right thing, instead of going
the way of oppression and menace, which is the way apparently chosen
here.
So, please, show courage, honestity and fairness, and let's try for a
resolution of this issue which will all make us proud, instead of what
we have seen upto now.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther <sv...@powerlinux.fr> writes:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:14:23AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote:
> >> On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
> >>> then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
> >>> will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
> >>> encouraged.
> >> These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next
> >> step to enlightenment.
> > Sam, what do you mean by that ?
>
> the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the
> future.
Mark, ...
How can you say that Debian will be better off without me ? My behaviour
as you call it, as been nothing but a reaction to what was done to me.
I was open, recognized my faults, apologized for it, tried to better
myself, tried to by constructive solutions to get this behind us, all to
no avail, while the other party insisted on "first you should recognize
this is all your fault", and told me to "FUCK YOU" and mentioned my wiki
page as the "worse pile of crap i ever saw", and so on.
> As you correctly pointed out, such behaviour should not be encouraged
> and the responsible person(s) should be removed from the project.
Then why did the project encourage it, by punishing me when i was not
showing this behaviour (example, at the start of february, when the
expulsion procedure was restarted), or when i tried to solve this in a
constructive and conciliatory way (example, the wiki page, or my
proposal to hold a in-RL meeting to solve this away from the
problematics of the mail form factor ?).
But i have come to not expect any honest and fair behaviour from debian
as a whole, which is more interested in protecting itself by
indiscrimanotrily lashing out with the most force it can instead of
being able to see its own fault in the events, you only prove me right
again, how sad, ...
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:14:23AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote:
>> On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
>>> then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
>>> will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
>>> encouraged.
>> These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next
>> step to enlightenment.
> Sam, what do you mean by that ?
Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for
the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the
future.
As you correctly pointed out, such behaviour should not be encouraged
and the responsible person(s) should be removed from the project.
So please, go away.
Marc
--
BOFH #308:
CD-ROM server needs recalibration
Sam Hocevar
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:14:23AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
> >
> > > then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
> > > will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
> > > encouraged.
> >
> > These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next
> > step to enlightenment.
>
> Sam, what do you mean by that ? Can we stop playing with words and come
> to a resolution of this ? I have another longer mail in the pipe, please
> read it *AND ACTUALLY REPLY TO THE POINTS I RAISE*.
I mean by that exactly what I wrote. It's not a play on words.
1. You are *absolutely right* in that "Debian is better off without
such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project". There is no
questioning in that. Whatever the situation, whoever the people, Debian
would be better off *without* people who only hurt the project.
2. You lack empathy. Empathy (« empathie » in French) is the ability
to feel what other people can feel and think. It's not an on/off
ability, it varies with people, with experience, with will, but you
really don't have much of it, are aren't willing to use it.
3. If you managed to acquire empathy, you would reach enlightenment.
You would understand what others are thinking of your behaviour, and why
they are thinking so. You would understand how spamming the lists hurts
Debian, how calling third parties "bastards" hurts Debian. You would
understand why your very statement that "Debian is better off without
such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project" applies exactly
to you. And you would be enlightened.
As the DPL I want happiness for developers, prosperity for the
project and justice in the community.
But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and
retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no
revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo
harm by harming even more.
Your access to the kernel repository has been reinstated and you can
be sure that it will never be mistakenly or deliberately removed again
without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
your disruptive behaviour.
Everyone can now happily stop posting in this thread and go back to
work.
Regards,
--
Sam.
Sven Luther
> But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and
> retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no
> revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo
> harm by harming even more.
You are spreading FUD, this is the second time in this thread, whic
saddens me strongly. Please see
Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr>
> Your access to the kernel repository has been reinstated and you can
> be sure that it will never be mistakenly or deliberately removed again
Partially restored, i used to be kernel team admin, but that is not the
point.
> without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
> an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
> your disruptive behaviour.
Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to
undo the harm done since over a year now too.
> Everyone can now happily stop posting in this thread and go back to
> work.
No, we cannot, because the problem is not solved, because the DAMs
decision was a stupid and unfair one, not even speaking of its
irregularity and lack of transparence.
So, read : Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr> and reply
to its substance.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 12:46:00PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote:
>> Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for
>> the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the
>> future.
> Mark, ...
That's not my name.
> How can you say that Debian will be better off without me ? My behaviour
> as you call it, as been nothing but a reaction to what was done to me.
Let's see. Imagine I would be actually insulted by your repeated
misspelling of my name and would come to your house, hit you, burn a few
things you own and then go away again. If anyone would try to punish me,
I would simply say "Hey, he started it, it was just a reaction!"
You might see there's a problem in this scenario: The reaction is in *no
way* proportional to the initial action. And that's exactly what one
sees when one is looking at your behaviour in the past few months.
Sven, go away, please. You have insulted and frustrated too many project
members by now. There is no way you will ever get to be a part of Debian
again.
Marc
--
BOFH #180:
ether leak
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> writes:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 12:46:00PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote:
> >> Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for
> >> the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the
> >> future.
> > Mark, ...
>
> That's not my name.
Sorry for that, Marc, ...
> > How can you say that Debian will be better off without me ? My behaviour
> > as you call it, as been nothing but a reaction to what was done to me.
>
> Let's see. Imagine I would be actually insulted by your repeated
> misspelling of my name and would come to your house, hit you, burn a few
> things you own and then go away again. If anyone would try to punish me,
> I would simply say "Hey, he started it, it was just a reaction!"
There is a strong difference though. You point my mistake out to me, i
recognize it and apologize, the problem is solved.
In this case, even while nobody really denies that the fault are shared,
and that this is not a black and white situation, i get told that "first
you are to recognize that all fault is yours" (from Raphael Hertzog,
Frans Pop and Anthony Towns, then DPL, maybe others i have forgotten).
Furthermore, when i try to work with the unfair punishement (i submitted
around 30 patches to the d-i BTS while my commit was removed, as
documented in the wiki page, i self-enforced the email ban in
january/february), those guys come over and repeatedly beat me.
Error is human, but persistance in ones fault is evil (or bad or
whatever).
You could argue that my repeatedingly making a fuss about this on the
mailing lists is a sign of persistance, but i recognize it is not the
best solution, but i sincerely don't see how else i could act in this,
do you have a suggestion ?
And no, be meek and accept everything is not an option, and try to
ignore it and work despite it has not worked, so ...
> You might see there's a problem in this scenario: The reaction is in *no
> way* proportional to the initial action. And that's exactly what one
> sees when one is looking at your behaviour in the past few months.
Yes, please, let's look at my behaviour these past few months. Since
let's say november or so, when Fabio decided to mediate. I had email
burst out in the following cases :
- suddenly Fabio decides to ban me from the lists, while there was
nothing but a single rather short irc exchange with Manoj to justify
it.
- suddenly, people ask for my expulsion again, while i respected the
self-ban, but they disliked me candidating as DPL.
- the DAMs chose to make a judgement which is more like a FUD and
caloumny campaign, listing all the insults and accusations the other
party has made, without even checking which part of it are plain
lies, and without being transparent about the irregularities of the
procedure they themeslves have set up. They furthermore take a long
long time to actually come to a decision.
- suddenly i discover my kernel svn access was removed, and when
asking nicely the alioth admins, they make sure issues escalate,
instead of quickly giving the answer.
The response may have been disproportionated, but if you look at the
long run, i am not sure this is the case, furthermore, i did nothing but
post a few mail, *AND THEN ENGAGE IN OPEN AND PUBLIC CONVERSATION WITH
THOSE WHO CHOSE TO SPEAK WITH ME*. Is this condenable ? I have some
doubts.
> Sven, go away, please. You have insulted and frustrated too many project
> members by now. There is no way you will ever get to be a part of Debian
> again.
Why not ? because they fear to look in the mirror and tell themselves,
that maybe sven was right in some part of those points, and maybe we
should have acted differently back then ?
But it is perfectly ok for me to be insulted and frustrated, and even
gone beyond words and punished ?
Joey Schulze
> Partially restored, i used to be kernel team admin, but that is not the
> point.
If it's not the point, don't mention it so often. Thanks.
> Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
You should accept this.
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
>
> The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> You should accept this.
Then what will change it ? what do you propose ? I made various
proposals to the DPL, or to others in conversation outside those threads
i am decryied for, where did they go ?
And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable
resolution of this problem.
I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian,
in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems
before they go out of hand.
I proposed an in RL meeting at FOSDEM, i did so around november, so 3-4
month before the fact, so if there had been a real will to it, it could
have been solved. But what did i got, the first day of FOSDEM the DAMs
sent me the expulsion letter, and James Troup to whom i spoke the next
day didn't even mention it to me.
So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I
am all ears, ...
Friendly,
Sven Luther
Andreas Barth
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> >
> > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > You should accept this.
>
> Then what will change it ?
Just leave Debian.
Cheers,
Andi
--
http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
Sven Luther
> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 13:58]:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > >
> > > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> > > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > > You should accept this.
> >
> > Then what will change it ?
>
> Just leave Debian.
Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ?
It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i
have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year
now.
Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Stephen Frost
> Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly
without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're
not willing to volunteer, then don't. Doing volunteer work and then
expecting to be paid for it doesn't exactly fly too well with the people
organizing the work, especially when they're volunteers themselves. For
that matter, it comes across pretty poorly to damn near everyone I know.
Enjoy,
Stephen
Joey Schulze
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> >
> > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > You should accept this.
>
> Then what will change it ?
Nothing.
> what do you propose ?
That you accept it.
> And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable
> resolution of this problem.
Then you are doomed. And Debian is doomed as long as you're bringing
this up again and again.
> I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian,
> in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems
> before they go out of hand.
Maybe we should declare this as an experiment and be done with it?
Worked for another issue as well.
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Josselin Mouette
> > Just leave Debian.
>
> Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
> behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ?
Yes. Obviously the Debian project isn't worthy of your contributions.
> Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
No one will ever give it back. That's the point of *giving* to a
volunteer project.
--
.''`.
: :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
`- our own. Resistance is futile.
Andreas Schuldei
> So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I
> am all ears, ...
i proposed a solution to you that would let you work on what you
like and took care of the social complications. but that approach
did not fit your own idea of solution", so you never even
considered it seriously. you destroy the basis for further
cooperation and alternative solutions in the meantime.
I am sorry to see it happen.
/andreas
Mike Hommey
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:07:06PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 13:58]:
> > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > > >
> > > > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> > > > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > > > You should accept this.
> > >
> > > Then what will change it ?
> >
> > Just leave Debian.
>
> Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
> behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ?
>
> It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i
> have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year
> now.
>
> Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
So leave and sue.
Mike
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > >
> > > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More
> > > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > > You should accept this.
> >
> > Then what will change it ?
>
> Nothing.
>
> > what do you propose ?
>
> That you accept it.
>
> > And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable
> > resolution of this problem.
>
> Then you are doomed. And Debian is doomed as long as you're bringing
> this up again and again.
Indeed.
May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it
a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ?
> > I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian,
> > in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems
> > before they go out of hand.
>
> Maybe we should declare this as an experiment and be done with it?
> Worked for another issue as well.
Yeah, right, but we can have a positive experiment, where we set up a
way to solve social problems in the future.
Let's try to better debian, and solve all the pain and frustration that
it has caused to so many (not only me and not only this matter) in the
past. As the new DPL said, i am hardly the only social problem in debian
right now, even if i am the most vocal one.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) wrote:
> > Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> > and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> > and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
>
> Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly
> without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're
I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If
i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best
of debian, and we would all be happy.
That is the problem.
> not willing to volunteer, then don't. Doing volunteer work and then
> expecting to be paid for it doesn't exactly fly too well with the people
> organizing the work, especially when they're volunteers themselves. For
> that matter, it comes across pretty poorly to damn near everyone I know.
Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be
handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer
organisation.
The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have
much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this
issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily
enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say :
Well, we acted badly, but the faults are shared, let's forget past
hurts, and try positively to work together again.
Is this so much to ask debian ? Really ?
As an example of why this is a mess :
14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
"valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
have been wrong"?
How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
everything is your fault".
What is wrong in being a bit more humble, and recognizing that the fault
is shared, and that if everyone involved showed a bit of good will, then
it would be solved in no time.
Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to
happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way
have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been
wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution.
So, i repeat, let's solve this issue in a fair and honest way, and
everyone will be happy. Is this too much to ask ? Apparently so ...
Sven Luther
> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 13:57]:
> > So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I
> > am all ears, ...
>
> i proposed a solution to you that would let you work on what you
> like and took care of the social complications. but that approach
> did not fit your own idea of solution", so you never even
> considered it seriously. you destroy the basis for further
> cooperation and alternative solutions in the meantime.
Erm, notice that i did that various times, and i was indeed doing it
now, when i noticed the same agression. Just as over a year ago, i was
happily investigating some powerpc d-i breakage when i noticed over a
month later what the d-i team had silently done to me.
I also did this during january/february, with the result of an expulsion
procedure being called against me, just because i dared present myself
as DPL, while i had not posted a single mail to the lists in over a
month.
> I am sorry to see it happen.
Sure, but it was unavoidable. This is a too deep wound, and it will
never heal, as long as the root of the problem is not handled first, and
a resolution to it can be found which will put the basis of of real
healing.
I did come to two persons, you and wouter, asking that you participated
in a renewed mediation of this issue. I did so after various weeks of
relative silence, so as to let the original DAMs puinishement out of the
issue, but Wouter said he didn't believe a mediation was possible
because frans would not hear him, and you weren't also overly
interested.
for a new mediation to happen, we need to find people who are
trustworthy and honourable, and which can be accepted by both party.
This is saddly rather difficult to find in debian, don't you think.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
Sam Hocevar
> > But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and
> > retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no
> > revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo
> > harm by harming even more.
>
> You are spreading FUD, this is the second time in this thread, whic
> saddens me strongly.
If one looks at the subject of the thread, it appears that you are
asking the DPL to "take action at whoever removed you from the kernel
team at alioth". This is asking for retaliation.
I will look at your other concerns and decide what I can do. But as I
said, as long as I am the project leader there will be no retaliation,
so try again in May 2008.
Regards,
--
Sam.
Joey Schulze
> May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it
> a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ?
Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what
Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you.
Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible.
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:13:02PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote:
> > > But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and
> > > retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no
> > > revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo
> > > harm by harming even more.
> >
> > You are spreading FUD, this is the second time in this thread, whic
> > saddens me strongly.
>
> If one looks at the subject of the thread, it appears that you are
> asking the DPL to "take action at whoever removed you from the kernel
> team at alioth". This is asking for retaliation.
Ok, so you are playing with words, are you satisfied now with this new
title ?
> I will look at your other concerns and decide what I can do. But as I
> said, as long as I am the project leader there will be no retaliation,
> so try again in May 2008.
i am not asking for retaliation. I am asking that a fair and honest
resolution to this mess be found, one which is acceptable to each party,
and which will allow us all to put this mess behind us and go back to
happily coding ever after.
For this, there are a few point. That all parties involved recognize
their fair part of fault, and no more (altough i will be happy if the
d-i folk don't recognize their part of fault, like said, i lost all hope
with them, but then it should be noted so), that all sanctions against
me, which where unfair and resulted of a partial and one-sided handling
of the problem, where lifted (except the d-i team membership, as side,
if the d-i folk cannot be reasoned, too bad for them, but their refusal
to work on a compromise should be noted), and we can all go back to
happily coding ever after.
So easy a resolution to this mess, don't you think ? Or if there is a
problem with this, then i am seriously curious as to what this problem
is ? And the "but you have offended so many folk" line i have been given
sounds suspiciously like accepting the behaviour in others which i am
condemned for, don't you think ?
A last note, notice how, despite me repeating myself so many time, you
still don't manage to actually grasp what i am asking for. It is
probably a severe lack in my communication skills, but repetition, with
little variants, is the only cure to that.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it
> > a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ?
>
> Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what
> Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you.
Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though
my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw
problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL
was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL
campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ?
So, just because Frans feels pissed and that i am not respectful enough
to him, i should be punished with a year of debian suspension ?
I repeat myself again, i don't care about Frans, he can be a
self-centered bully in his corner, and refuse anyone who is not
respectful enough to play with him, find with me, but he should leave me
alone, and not go into this provocation of me he has done, nor jump on
the most minor of issues.
So, i ask that the suspension be lifted, that debian finally admits that
it has handled this issue unfairly, that more than one party was at
fault, and notes that i have made many conciliation attempts which where
rejected by frans. And that's it, the issue will be forgotten, and
everyone is back to happily coding ever after.
Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you
Joey, of all other readers.
> Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible.
Why is it impossible ? This is what i don't understand. Debian has
chosen to side with Frans in this since the begining, thus causing this
prolonged mess, why could it not have taken a neutral, transparent and
honourable stance in this, and given a fair judgement.
If Frans cannot live with a fair judgement, well, too bad with him, but
this is hardly something you can use against me, can you ?
And Frans, i still have hopes that this will change, if you just tried,
and accepted the tentatives of conciliation for a change, everyone would
be happy coding ever after, for the greater good of Debian.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Joey Schulze
> Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you
> Joey, of all other readers.
Yes.
> > Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible.
>
> Why is it impossible ? This is what i don't understand. Debian has
> > Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what
> > Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you.
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you
> > Joey, of all other readers.
>
> Yes.
How sad, ...
but it isd because of this, that the problem is still present after over
a year, and that it has escalated beyond mesures.
Sven Luther
Mike Hommey
> Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
yourself from this world, please ?
Mike
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
>
> Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
> yourself from this world, please ?
Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where
they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that
it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters
searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2
weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy.
Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could
possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ?
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Kevin Mark
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
> >
> > Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
> > yourself from this world, please ?
>
> Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
> you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
> there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where
> they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that
> it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters
> searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2
> weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy.
>
> Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could
> possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ?
>
and what happended in the past is less important that what you are doing
now. You are just trying to be 'right' at any expense by beating up
everyone else wheather they were involved in the events or not. You
obviously have not seen the 'subversion guys talk at google about
poisonous people'. In life you can 'be right' or 'be happy'. You choose
'being right' and the result is not being 'happy'. And your attacks on
Debian are a substitute for something else that makes you unhappy. And
that issue can not be solved by attacking folks here.
Please find a way to resolve your sadness by seeking therapy.
K
--
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Josselin Mouette
> Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though
> my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw
> problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL
> was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL
> campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ?
Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single
chance to be elected as DPL?
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > > > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > > > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
> > >
> > > Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
> > > yourself from this world, please ?
> >
> > Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
> > you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
> > there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where
> > they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that
> > it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters
> > searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2
> > weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy.
> >
> > Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could
> > possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ?
> >
> >From my point of view, your words are less important that your actions
> and what happended in the past is less important that what you are doing
> now. You are just trying to be 'right' at any expense by beating up
> everyone else wheather they were involved in the events or not. You
Am i ? I am just using a public forum for speaking about my issue, since
doing it in the private has so severly failed in the past. I am holding
an open an transparent discussion with those who i hope may be moved to
solve this in a fair and honourable way.
I don't see how you can equate writing mails in a single list, on a set
of well defined threads, as "beating up everyone". I mean, then half the
DDs who engage in random flamewars on random lists would be coupable of
the same thing as me, and should be suspended for a year ?
And i did indeed see, and skipped, many such flamewars, just look at
your mailbox or your mail archive ?
> obviously have not seen the 'subversion guys talk at google about
> poisonous people'. In life you can 'be right' or 'be happy'. You choose
No i have not, and i find it a bit insulting to be treated as a
poinsonous people, or a energy beast, as other have called me. This is
typical of the deshumanizing of the other party in this dispute, and
hardly prone to help solve this.
> 'being right' and the result is not being 'happy'. And your attacks on
Sure, i have tried the 'ignore it and be happy', saddly the other party
could not be satisfied by this, and repeteadly restarted the agression
while nothing could be reproached to me.
I defy you or anyone to find a single reason to justify the renewal of
the expulsion procedure at the start of february, or the hallucinating
'two month ban' after christmas.
> Debian are a substitute for something else that makes you unhappy. And
No, you are wrong. Debian is the one making me unhappy, is the one
hurting me, and no substitute for anything else. That is the problem,
because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have
in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions.
> that issue can not be solved by attacking folks here.
> Please find a way to resolve your sadness by seeking therapy.
Yeah, thanks. I wonder what psychological degree you have to be able to
make such a diagnostic with the highly partial data you have in your
possession. You must be a hell of a psychanalist :)
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though
> > my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw
> > problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL
> > was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL
> > campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ?
>
> Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single
> chance to be elected as DPL?
Nope, but this is hardly ground for asking for my expulsion, is it ?
Like i said, i was not even thinking about this until, i think it was
astronut, pinged me on irc, and suggested that the DPL candidacy was a
way to act on what i believed (don't remember the exact words).
This seemed a reasonable thing to do at that time, especially as i was
abiding by the self-enforced ban, enjoying the tranquility this offered
to me, and hopping that by the end of the ban, or the upcoming FOSDEM
meeting, we could finally find a way to deal with these issues in a
non-confrontational way, and make everyone happy.
I was really looking forward to meeting frans in real life, and solving
the issue, those who where there may even remember that i tried to help
him when he was having X related troubles at the start of his
presentation. I even went to Holger after my talk, trying to ask him, as
a one of those who where the most agressive against me, if i had managed
my presentation while letting the old grudge aside, and there, after
having exchanged a few words with James Troup, he was the first to tell
me that "so many folk where against me, don't you know what is
happening, and that people where again asking about your expulsion, and
debian would be better off without you".
Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the
timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy
dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this.
Josselin Mouette
> > Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single
> > chance to be elected as DPL?
>
> Nope
Good. Now will you stop arguing your expulsion was requested because of
your candidacy?
> Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the
> timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy
> dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this.
Yes, it can be seen as many other things.
> Saddened,
Snoring,
Gunnar Wolf
> > > Then what will change it ?
> >
> > Just leave Debian.
>
> Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
> behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ?
Because you cannot work in it anymore. Because your co-workers are fed
up with interminable flamewars.
> It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i
> have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year
> now.
But the solution is not reachable.
> Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
That's free software, sorry. You have a well-recognized name as a PPC
and kernel hacker. You have sacrificed those hours because you wanted
to, nobody promised you (or me, or anybody for practical matters)
anything in exchange.
--
Gunnar Wolf - gw...@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244
PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Gunnar Wolf
> > without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
> > an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
> > your disruptive behaviour.
>
> Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> undo the harm done since over a year now too.
I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think
you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with
too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I
also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social
interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few
months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the
flamefest of the world.
Sven: Please go away. You cannot work with the people in Debian that
take care of the same areas you do. Your technical level is good, and
Debian will end up losing valuable contributions. But it is more than
proven you cannot work with the people in those teams.
Josselin Mouette
> Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion
> was requested on february 7 or so ?
For example, that could be because of the fourth report of the IPCC -
delivered on February 2 - which confirmed the human cause of the global
climate changes. Some people may have concluded that your level of
trolling is heavily responsible for global warming and can therefore not
be accepted in Debian.
> I am really curious ?
If by curious you mean "strange", you definitely are.
> > > Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the
> > > timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy
> > > dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this.
> >
> > Yes, it can be seen as many other things.
>
> Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ?
It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it
can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus.
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]:
> > > without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
> > > an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
> > > your disruptive behaviour.
> >
> > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to
> > undo the harm done since over a year now too.
>
> I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think
> you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with
> too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I
> also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social
> interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few
> months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the
> flamefest of the world.
Err, no, it is not 'i make a post or two', but 'some action by some
random guy does again show again how much debian has hurt me, and i
react to it'.
Please show me a single such thread which was not started by an external
cause ?
> Sven: Please go away. You cannot work with the people in Debian that
> take care of the same areas you do. Your technical level is good, and
I sure do, some very few of them have decided they cannot work with me,
this is different.
> Debian will end up losing valuable contributions. But it is more than
> proven you cannot work with the people in those teams.
The 30 or so patches i provided to d-i despite the continuous agressions
of Frans, and the highly unfair situation are proof enough that you are
wrong.
Or do you have argumentation to support this so called 'proof' ? Or is
this more plain FUD ?
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Gunnar Wolf
> > Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly
> > without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're
>
> I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If
> i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best
> of debian, and we would all be happy.
> Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be
> handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer
> organisation.
>
> The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have
> much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this
> issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily
> enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say :
That's a good reason to leave Debian: Because so many people insult
you, because so many people cannot stand yet-another-flamewar with no
results, because you are so hurt with it.
> As an example of why this is a mess :
>
> 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
> "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
> have been wrong"?
>
> How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
> Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
> everything is your fault".
...And now, you also put Sam in your shitlist. And probably I'm
next. And... How many are we? 1000 DDs? Will we all end up in the same list?
--
Gunnar Wolf - gw...@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244
PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Josselin Mouette
> Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ?
Yes, definitely. I think Debian should remain a place of shadowy
dealings and mafioso politics. Therefore I don't want you to come and
fix that.
> > It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it
> > can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus.
>
> Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert
> to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm,
> wait, where did i hear this one ?
I don't know. The theory I heard was that it was all a manipulation of
the Illuminati to protect the Earth from a terrible alien invasion by
tricking those who are spying debian-private (thanks to DDs using gmail)
into thinking we are a too dangerous species for them.
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:12:19PM +0200]:
> > > > Then what will change it ?
> > >
> > > Just leave Debian.
> >
> > Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
> > behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ?
>
> Because you cannot work in it anymore. Because your co-workers are fed
> up with interminable flamewars.
Then let's solve the issue. This is what i have been asking since over a
year nbow.
> > It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i
> > have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year
> > now.
>
> But the solution is not reachable.
Why not ?
> > Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> > and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> > and time and equipement i have given to debian ?
>
> That's free software, sorry. You have a well-recognized name as a PPC
> and kernel hacker. You have sacrificed those hours because you wanted
> to, nobody promised you (or me, or anybody for practical matters)
> anything in exchange.
They sure as hell didn't promise me what i got since over a year, that i
would be handled unfairly (as Wouter said), just because some guy felt i
didn't respect him enough, or i would have gone running away since the
start.
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:32 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit :
> > > Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single
> > > chance to be elected as DPL?
> >
> > Nope
>
> Good. Now will you stop arguing your expulsion was requested because of
> your candidacy?
Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion
was requested on february 7 or so ?
I am really curious ?
> > Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the
> > timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy
> > dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this.
>
> Yes, it can be seen as many other things.
Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ?
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:52:22PM +0200]:
> > > Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly
> > > without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're
> >
> > I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If
> > i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best
> > of debian, and we would all be happy.
> > (...)
> > Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be
> > handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer
> > organisation.
> >
> > The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have
> > much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this
> > issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily
> > enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say :
>
> That's a good reason to leave Debian: Because so many people insult
Err, a handful is "so many people". I guess this is the cause of all my
problem, we don't speak the same language.
> you, because so many people cannot stand yet-another-flamewar with no
> results, because you are so hurt with it.
Well, then please o please, help ensure that there is a honest and fair
result this time, so we won't have to go through this again next month.
> > As an example of why this is a mess :
> >
> > 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
> > "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
> > have been wrong"?
> >
> > How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
> > Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
> > everything is your fault".
>
> ...And now, you also put Sam in your shitlist. And probably I'm
> next. And... How many are we? 1000 DDs? Will we all end up in the same list?
Sorry, maybe i am stupid, but i fail to see why you mention sam here ?
What list are you speaking about ? i see only a list of 3 persons,
Anthony Towns, Frans Pop, and Raphael Hertzog, who told me "you must
first admit that everything is your fault".
Again, i guess the problem here is that we don't speak the same
language ...
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:44 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit :
> > Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion
> > was requested on february 7 or so ?
>
> For example, that could be because of the fourth report of the IPCC -
> delivered on February 2 - which confirmed the human cause of the global
> climate changes. Some people may have concluded that your level of
> trolling is heavily responsible for global warming and can therefore not
> be accepted in Debian.
Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ?
> > I am really curious ?
>
> If by curious you mean "strange", you definitely are.
>
> > > > Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the
> > > > timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy
> > > > dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this.
> > >
> > > Yes, it can be seen as many other things.
> >
> > Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ?
>
> It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it
> can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus.
Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert
to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm,
wait, where did i hear this one ?
Sven Luther
> Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:58 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit :
> > Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ?
>
> Yes, definitely. I think Debian should remain a place of shadowy
> dealings and mafioso politics. Therefore I don't want you to come and
> fix that.
>
> > > It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it
> > > can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus.
> >
> > Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert
> > to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm,
> > wait, where did i hear this one ?
>
> I don't know. The theory I heard was that it was all a manipulation of
> the Illuminati to protect the Earth from a terrible alien invasion by
> tricking those who are spying debian-private (thanks to DDs using gmail)
> into thinking we are a too dangerous species for them.
So, maybe i should publish the irc logs of the french cabal to help your
memory, right ?
Mike Bird
You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive
as they alienate more and more Debian readers.
I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
You might want to consider developing a web page with careful
analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over
a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does
not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting
a single email with request for review by whomever you believe
has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point,
if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said
website in your sig.
Respectfully,
--Mike Bird
Sven Luther
Oh fun, MadCoder is threatening me with legal action ...
David Weinehall
[snip]
> Err, a handful is "so many people". I guess this is the cause of all my
> problem, we don't speak the same language.
So on one hand, you again and again and again say that *Debian* is
treating you badly, on the other hand you say that it's only a handful
of people. What is it, one or the other?
[snip]
Regards: David
--
/) David Weinehall <t...@debian.org> /) Rime on my window (\
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ // Diamond-white roses of fire //
\) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/ (/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:07:40PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> [snip]
> > Err, a handful is "so many people". I guess this is the cause of all my
> > problem, we don't speak the same language.
>
> So on one hand, you again and again and again say that *Debian* is
> treating you badly, on the other hand you say that it's only a handful
> of people. What is it, one or the other?
Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I
guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has
a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this.
But, for whatever reason, Debian as a whole, with the voice of his
(previous) DPL, and more recently, the DAMs decision, have given them
full reason, even though many, like Wouter who said so publicly, and
others who said so in private, recognize that i was handled unfairly.
Even the DAMs in their decision and the previous DPL in a private mail
said so.
So, we have a situation where a handful of people have to absolutely
make sure i am expulsed because i candidated as DPL, and they have a
private axe to grind against me, the powers-that-be in debian who give
them full reason (for whatever reason), and the rest of debian who
mostly ignore the issue, but in name of whom the decision is taken.
Does that clarifies things ?
Saddened,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven,
>
> You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
> who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
Possibly, but for two points :
- i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
being involved.
- this is a case where you can do something, so it is a bit different
than the case of all those who suffer far worse than me, and where
you can hardly act.
> Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive
> as they alienate more and more Debian readers.
Well, i am just holding an open and public conversation with some folk,
is that so evil ? I believe the conversation has to be open and
transparent, past dealings have shown me that trying to hold them in
private will bring nothing, so what do you expect ?
> I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
Sure, but what will it bring ?
> You might want to consider developing a web page with careful
You mean, like :
Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old.
> analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over
> a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does
> not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting
> a single email with request for review by whomever you believe
> has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point,
> if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said
> website in your sig.
Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
It is so easy to solve this issue, so easy, that i don't understand at
all why people find it so important to come against me so strongly,
creating mails which amount to around half of this thread, instead of
saying, ok, we will investigate the issue, and solve this so everyone is
happy.
Sad, isn't it ?
Sven Luther
Joerg Jaspert
On 11034 March 1977, Sven Luther wrote:
> As an example of why this is a mess :
> 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
> "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
> have been wrong"?
> How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
> Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
> everything is your fault".
That summary is not what I said in the quote above.
> Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to
> happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way
> have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been
> wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution.
The sign was big, really. It was a "take a *long* break, come back then"
sign. Its not the sign you like, so you consider it "bad", "unhonest",
$whatever.
You can have another sign if you want, but I bet you also dont like it,
its from one of those nasty guys that only want to destroy Debian and
not give you all what you want...
The sign would read similar to "if you manage to have such a long break
as suggested and then come back, *without* rehashing all those old
arguments in endless threads again and again - people would actually
listen to what you (may) have to say. They would work together with
you." You know, people tend to forget old stuff, thats human (and thats
good). But if you continue to fight you wont ever get your involvement
in Debian back to a stage you enjoy it again. Sad, and for sure not what
you want to read, but thats it.
--
bye Joerg
<quinophex> iDunno: anyhow, tbm fits the description of an alug user
<quinophex> he uses linux and is based in East Anglia :)
<tbm> "he uses linux". I run the Debian project, for fucks sake! :-P
Stephen Birch
> Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I
> guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has
> a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this.
The number of people having a problem with you will increase
significantly if you don't stop burning our bandwidth with this nonsense.
Sven ... for goodness sake, drop it and move on!
Steve
Sven Luther
>
> On 11034 March 1977, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> > As an example of why this is a mess :
> > 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
> > "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
> > have been wrong"?
>
> > How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
> > Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
> > everything is your fault".
>
> That summary is not what I said in the quote above.
Care to elaborate ? It is pretty similar.
> > Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to
> > happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way
> > have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been
> > wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution.
>
> The sign was big, really. It was a "take a *long* break, come back then"
No, the sign was that i was the sole one to blame in this mess, while
the responsabilities are shared. In the context of it, it was putting
all the responsability on me, and totally absolving the other party in
this. This is not fully your fault, since there was no global handling
of the situation, but still there was no sign, only punishment.
> sign. Its not the sign you like, so you consider it "bad", "unhonest",
> $whatever.
No. what i consider dishonest, is that you didn't provide the dates and
the full mails of the expulsion requests. That you didn't respect your
own procedure, that you dismissed the 70:7 opinion of the DDs who where
strongly against the expulsion as if it was nothing.
Please, Joerg, tell me what reason there was on February 7 or whatever
it was that justified the expulsion request ? On the day after my DPL
candidacy ? Find me a single reason at that time that justifies it.
Furthermore, you knew i would be at FOSDEM, James Troup was there too,
why was not something RL arranged then ?
> You can have another sign if you want, but I bet you also dont like it,
> its from one of those nasty guys that only want to destroy Debian and
> not give you all what you want...
Exact. All i want. All i want is to be treated fairly, and that the part
of responsability of everyone involved in this mess is clearly laid out.
Is this so much to ask ? Why should you humor frans when he can't be
happy with me in debian, and should i not ask for fair handling ?
> The sign would read similar to "if you manage to have such a long break
> as suggested and then come back, *without* rehashing all those old
Well, it is not possible, because *I WAS NOT THE ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR
THE WHOLE MESS*, as long as that is not clarified, and a basis for a
long term healing be found, then it will not be solved. And especially,
it will not be solved by the long litany of FUD and Caloumny you listed,
without even investigating the trutfulness of it. How could you ever
expect that any sound human being would react in a positive way to it ?
> arguments in endless threads again and again - people would actually
> listen to what you (may) have to say. They would work together with
> you." You know, people tend to forget old stuff, thats human (and thats
> good). But if you continue to fight you wont ever get your involvement
> in Debian back to a stage you enjoy it again. Sad, and for sure not what
> you want to read, but thats it.
You are wrong, if there is no basis of healing, then old stuff festers,
and cause deep psychic trauma. And that is what is happening here.
I know you took it upon yourself to be sole (or among the two sole)
judge on this, and i don't think that you really grasped the impact of
your decision. Sam said i have no empathy, but this is false. I
recognize how many react in this, and i feel sorry for them, me and us
that the current situation is unavoidable, but go ask around people with
psychological or sociological analysis, and you will see the effect of
your 'sign'.
Sad that things turned out, and sad to see how much energy everyone is
taking just to make sure this never gets solved.
Sad indeed,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I
> > guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has
> > a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this.
>
> The number of people having a problem with you will increase
> significantly if you don't stop burning our bandwidth with this nonsense.
Which nonsense ? Why should i not expect debian to handle me fairly ? It
would be so easy with a bit of good will to stop this in a way to be
proud of, so easy. But no, i should be silenced, and made to accept
everything, so sad.
> Sven ... for goodness sake, drop it and move on!
No, i did it in the past, and it hurt more, debian owes me a fair
handling, and it would cost it nothing, nothing at all.
So why not do the right thing and sole the isssue, recognize that the
faults are shared, lift the unfair restrictions, and be done with it ?
We would all be happy coding ever after, and this would only be a bad
memory,
Sad isn't it.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
Joey Schulze
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > Sven,
> >
> > You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> > arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
> > who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> > like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> > them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
>
> Possibly, but for two points :
>
> - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
> read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
> being involved.
You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists
either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why?
> > Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive
> > as they alienate more and more Debian readers.
>
> Well, i am just holding an open and public conversation with some folk,
You are polluting the mailing list, you are offending Debian developers,
you are spreading FUD and beating dead horses. It's a public conversion,
true, but a pretty pointless one. As said numerous times, you would do
yourself and others a favour stopping that.
> > I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> > this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
>
> Sure, but what will it bring ?
Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the
situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'.
> Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
> on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
> to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
The solution is you not having d-i commit permission. You don't accept
this. Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while.
You don't accept that either. Please learn to live with this. You are
not helping yourself beating these dead horses over and over again.
You won't change either of them. Don't start asking why, just accept
the facts and live with them. Please!!!
Regards,
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Mike Hommey
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
> >
> > yourself from this world, please ?
>
> Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
> you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
> there
Like Anthony's request for suspension in January (iirc) ?
Mike
Andreas Barth
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:29:35AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]:
> > > > without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
> > > > an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
> > > > your disruptive behaviour.
> > >
> > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > > whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to
> > > undo the harm done since over a year now too.
> >
> > I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think
> > you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with
> > too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I
> > also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social
> > interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few
> > months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the
> > flamefest of the world.
>
> Err, no, it is not 'i make a post or two', but 'some action by some
> random guy does again show again how much debian has hurt me, and i
> react to it'.
And then you cannot just stop when the mistake has been fixed. *That* is
the main reason for the issue.
Back a few months ago, I was between unsure and in favour of not
expulsing you. You made me change my opinion in the last 36 hours.
This is not something easy for me to say. But you convinced me that it
would be better for both you and Debian if our ways part. I still hope
that you realize that too, but if you don't, I'm seriously considering
to ask DAM and listmaster to make it happen.
I'm very very sad about this happening.
Andi
--
http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > Sven,
> > >
> > > You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> > > arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
> > > who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> > > like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> > > them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
> >
> > Possibly, but for two points :
> >
> > - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
> > read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
> > being involved.
>
> You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists
> either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why?
Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email
archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because
you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice
of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other
random thread on our lists ?
Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ?
> > > Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive
> > > as they alienate more and more Debian readers.
> >
> > Well, i am just holding an open and public conversation with some folk,
>
> You are polluting the mailing list, you are offending Debian developers,
> you are spreading FUD and beating dead horses. It's a public conversion,
Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the
truth to the best of my knowledge, which has not been the case of
everyone here. As for dead horses, i am not dead yet.
> true, but a pretty pointless one. As said numerous times, you would do
> yourself and others a favour stopping that.
It is not my fault it is a pointless one. Why can't we take this
oportunity to finally handle this issue like it should have been from
the start, and give debian a tool to really handle such social problems
so it won't happen again in the future ?
> > > I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> > > this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
> >
> > Sure, but what will it bring ?
>
> Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the
> situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'.
To what end ? So we can have this same mess in two weeks ?
> > Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
> > on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
> > to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
>
> The solution is you not having d-i commit permission. You don't accept
> this.
Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr>
My responsability :
- I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for
debian and them.
Mmm, somehow, this seems at total odd with what you say. I still claim
that the d-i leadership decision to remove my svn commit access was
unfair and stupid, but it has been over 6 months now that i have
abandoned all claims to it, and have repeatedly said so, without it ever
being notice. Who speaks of FUD ?
> Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while.
Not due to my behaviour, due to unaceptable full play, and
irregularities in the expulsion procedure. This is not the same, and
this is the truth nobody wants me to claim loudly.
> You don't accept that either. Please learn to live with this. You are
Sure i won't accept it. If you would be fair, you would not accept the
expulsion procedure as it was done either. If you where honest, you
would yourself ask for an investigation about the shady dealings which
happened back then. But as it is bothersome truth, i need to be
silenced.
> not helping yourself beating these dead horses over and over again.
> You won't change either of them. Don't start asking why, just accept
> the facts and live with them. Please!!!
Well, i think you are wrong. The irregularities around the expulsion
procedure are hurting deban, and many are outraged by it, even though
they remain silent.
But debian can grow up, and learn how to deal which such social crisis.
Let's make debian better, and something where such problems can be delt
with fairly and honourably.
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Teodor
> Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I
> guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has
> a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this.
Hi Sven. I apologize for all the bad things that we as a community did to you!
I'm sorry. We're sorry. I regret this... We regret this ...
I really don't have the time and the patience of reading all the
messages you have sent to support your position. I doubt anyone did! I
think you should know this... you should use this energy (A LOT) and
do something useful.
What else we can do to help you? Do you accept our apologies? Can you?
Do you want more than our apologies?
NOTE: I hope this discussion will end shortly, I don't have more to
say without repeating myself.
Sven Luther
> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 18:17]:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:29:35AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > > Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]:
> > > > > without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired
> > > > > an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against
> > > > > your disruptive behaviour.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > > > whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to
> > > > undo the harm done since over a year now too.
> > >
> > > I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think
> > > you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with
> > > too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I
> > > also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social
> > > interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few
> > > months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the
> > > flamefest of the world.
> >
> > Err, no, it is not 'i make a post or two', but 'some action by some
> > random guy does again show again how much debian has hurt me, and i
> > react to it'.
>
> And then you cannot just stop when the mistake has been fixed. *That* is
> the main reason for the issue.
Ok, fine, i will stop as soon as my suspension is lifted, and it is
clearly told that i am not the sole responsible for this whole mess.
> Back a few months ago, I was between unsure and in favour of not
> expulsing you. You made me change my opinion in the last 36 hours.
>
> This is not something easy for me to say. But you convinced me that it
> would be better for both you and Debian if our ways part. I still hope
> that you realize that too, but if you don't, I'm seriously considering
> to ask DAM and listmaster to make it happen.
Nice. I hope they will follow the procedure this time, and not let
shadowy dealings get in the way.
> I'm very very sad about this happening.
Yes, but you won't do a thing so it happens otherwise.
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > > > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > > > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
> > >
> > > Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
> > > yourself from this world, please ?
> >
> > Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
> > you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
> > there
>
> Like Anthony's request for suspension in January (iirc) ?
The expulsion procedure asks for 2 weeks for getting enough supporters,
and Anthony himself showed his suprise when it was not dropped. The
procedure also asks for 2 weeks after the expulsion request is done to
gather supporters, which leaves us at two weeks before the saturday of
FOSDEM, and when you count back, it brings us as exactly the day after i
candidated for DPL, while i had not posted a single mail in a full
month.
So, where is the evidence you speak about ?
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Mike Bird
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > You might want to consider developing a web page with careful
> > a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does
> > not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting
> > a single email with request for review by whomever you believe
> > has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point,
> > if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said
> > website in your sig.
>
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssu
>e?highlight=%28SvenLuther%29
>
> Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old.
Sven,
That page does not have careful analysis of evidence and arguments,
was obviously not carefully reviewed over a period of time, does not
stand alone, does require repetitive emails to shore it up, and is
not linked from your sig. In short, it fails to meet the overwhelming
majority of the specified criteria. Therefore, in answer to your
question whether I mean a page like that, the answer is no.
That page is garbage.
You need to apply the same brain power that you apply to technical work.
Decide how to structure your argument, decide what to include and what
to exclude, present it carefully, review and refine it over a period of
weeks.
One possibility, loosely based on anglophone legal procedure (IANAL):
* Introduction - briefly outlining the alleged wrong and what remedy you
think should be had. Should also motivate the reader to continue reading
rather than merely annoying the reader. Should denote the person or
persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy.
* Facts - the events, relationships, rights, duties, etc which you allege
show that you were wronged and that you have a right to your proposed
remedy.
* Authorities - the rules, traditions, constitutions, written laws, common
(unwritten) laws, etc. The authorities must first establish the wrong,
i.e. that you had a right - perhaps just the right to be left alone -
which someone had a duty to observe and which right that someone breached.
The authorities must second establish that in light of the wrong, you have
a right to your proposed remedy from the power. (For example, if I were
to sue the US Government, I might be able to show that I was wronged but
depending upon the facts I might not have a right to a remedy from a US
court.)
* Evidence - that which tends to establish the facts you allege. This
will probably be mostly links to emails but could also include new
posted statements by yourself or others.
* Argument - not childish whining but a carefully thought out presentation
that shows (a) that the evidence proves the facts and (b) that the facts
show a wrong under cited authority and (c) that cited authority gives you
the right to your proposed remedy for that wrong (d) from the person or
persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy.
* Conclusion - briefly summarizing the alleged wrong, reemphasizing a few key
points of the case, and a reassertion of the remedy which you think should
be had. Should again denote the person or persons whom you believe have
the power to grant you the remedy.
That's the order you present it. It's obviously not the order you think
about it. You start with the evidence, figure out what facts you can
prove, and then determine whether there are any authorities establishing
both the existence of a wrong against you and your right to a remedy from
some power.
When written, reviewed, and refined to the best of your ability, you send the
URL to the person or persons whom you believe should grant you the remedy,
optionally with a cc to -project. The relevant power could be the DPL, the
DAMs, all DDs for a GR, or even a court of law. I don't know. That's up to
you to figure out, optionally with the assistance of friends or an attorney.
I would further suggest creating your web page somewhere (a) under your total
control and (b) not using Debian resources. One doesn't steal a sheet of
paper from the judge to file a complaint. It's a trivial offence but it's
just not smart. However it might be reasonable to post a very brief balanced
mention of the dispute to the Debian Wiki, with a link to your page and space
for others to post links to opposing views if they choose.
If for some reason it is not possible to do as suggested - if something in
the chain of evidence, facts, authorities, and powers is inadequate - then
you don't have a case for the remedy you desire. You kick yourself and get
on with your life, and you stop whining on the mailing lists.
--Mike Bird
Sven Luther
> On 5/29/07, Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> wrote:
> >Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I
> >guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has
> >a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this.
>
> Hi Sven. I apologize for all the bad things that we as a community did to
> you!
>
> I'm sorry. We're sorry. I regret this... We regret this ...
>
> I really don't have the time and the patience of reading all the
> messages you have sent to support your position. I doubt anyone did! I
> think you should know this... you should use this energy (A LOT) and
> do something useful.
>
> What else we can do to help you? Do you accept our apologies? Can you?
> Do you want more than our apologies?
Thanks for your apologies. I accept it in the spirit it was given, but i
fear that Debian doesn't share your position, or if it does, why does it
costs it so much to say so publicly ?
> NOTE: I hope this discussion will end shortly, I don't have more to
> say without repeating myself.
I am not sure, there seem to be people intent on making it happen, and
have it escalate worse still.
Too bad, all i asked is an honest hearing, and a fairt handling, and a
will to solve this.
Too bad,
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> On Tuesday 29 May 2007 09:59, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > You might want to consider developing a web page with careful
> > > analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over
> > > a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does
> > > not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting
> > > a single email with request for review by whomever you believe
> > > has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point,
> > > if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said
> > > website in your sig.
> >
> > You mean, like :
> >
> > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssu
> >e?highlight=%28SvenLuther%29
> >
> > Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old.
>
> Sven,
>
> That page does not have careful analysis of evidence and arguments,
Yes, because i chose to forget old grudges, and show only positive and
constructive effort, well in the original page at :
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther
that is.
> was obviously not carefully reviewed over a period of time, does not
> stand alone, does require repetitive emails to shore it up, and is
> not linked from your sig. In short, it fails to meet the overwhelming
> majority of the specified criteria. Therefore, in answer to your
> question whether I mean a page like that, the answer is no.
Ok. But as said, i worked on a page which showed my positive
contribution to the debian project, and the d-i subproject in
particular, despite the stress i was under.
Frans replied : FUCK OFF, and the worst crap ever.
> That page is garbage.
>
> You need to apply the same brain power that you apply to technical work.
> Decide how to structure your argument, decide what to include and what
> to exclude, present it carefully, review and refine it over a period of
> weeks.
Sorry for giving the wrong link, see :
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther
Sure, as said, my original page linked above, follows some of these
issues, but enphasing the constructive and positive work i have done,
and putting aside the old grudges, in hope of a positive resolution.
The other page evolved with the knee jerk reaction of the other party to
hit, and the terror methods of one Chealer who believed himself master
of the wiki.
> That's the order you present it. It's obviously not the order you think
> about it. You start with the evidence, figure out what facts you can
> prove, and then determine whether there are any authorities establishing
> both the existence of a wrong against you and your right to a remedy from
> some power.
>
> When written, reviewed, and refined to the best of your ability, you send the
> URL to the person or persons whom you believe should grant you the remedy,
> optionally with a cc to -project. The relevant power could be the DPL, the
> DAMs, all DDs for a GR, or even a court of law. I don't know. That's up to
> you to figure out, optionally with the assistance of friends or an attorney.
>
> I would further suggest creating your web page somewhere (a) under your total
Yep, i have thougth about this too. The fact that i needed to consider
this only proves my point in this whole mess.
> control and (b) not using Debian resources. One doesn't steal a sheet of
> paper from the judge to file a complaint. It's a trivial offence but it's
> just not smart. However it might be reasonable to post a very brief balanced
> mention of the dispute to the Debian Wiki, with a link to your page and space
> for others to post links to opposing views if they choose.
Its no offense, i was part of debian back then, and it was the natural
vector for such a mess.
> If for some reason it is not possible to do as suggested - if something in
> the chain of evidence, facts, authorities, and powers is inadequate - then
> you don't have a case for the remedy you desire. You kick yourself and get
> on with your life, and you stop whining on the mailing lists.
You are wrong, you still need a impartial judge. Tell me where in debian
i do find such ? That is the main problem, any argumentation is just
lost time without a fair hearing and an impartial judge.
If you can find an impartial judge which will not be dismissed by debian
or blackmailed, then i will take the time to do so.
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Joerg Jaspert
>> > 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
>> > "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
>> > have been wrong"?
>> > How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
>> > Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
>> > everything is your fault".
>> That summary is not what I said in the quote above.
> Care to elaborate ? It is pretty similar.
Simple, as written above:
Would you ever consider something as a valid way out if that way out
does not include a full "drop suspension, give back d-i rights, full
apology from Debian for whatever it did in the past to hurt you"?
(Note the "").
>> > Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to
>> > happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way
>> > have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been
>> > wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution.
>>
>> The sign was big, really. It was a "take a *long* break, come back then"
> No, the sign was that i was the sole one to blame in this mess, while
> the responsabilities are shared. In the context of it, it was putting
> all the responsability on me, and totally absolving the other party in
> this. This is not fully your fault, since there was no global handling
> of the situation, but still there was no sign, only punishment.
Right, I was putting the blame only on you. Sure thats why I had a
paragraph like the following in the decision.
--8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8---
Yes, its not only Sven's fault that we got here. He is part of it,
probably the largest part, but many others involved in this whole story
did their own work in getting us to the point we are now. But right now,
in this procedure, we had to decide about Sven, not about anyone
else.
--8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8---
--
bye Joerg
<Keybuk> one imagines he'll be campaigning with a grass-roots "free auric"
stance
<Keybuk> or possibly "kill DanielS"
<ElectricElf> Hmm, both powerful platforms.
Joey Schulze
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:21:08PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > > Sven,
> > > >
> > > > You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> > > > arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
> > > > who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> > > > like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> > > > them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
> > >
> > > Possibly, but for two points :
> > >
> > > - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
> > > read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
> > > being involved.
> >
> > You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists
> > either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why?
>
> Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email
> archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because
Technically you can. Maybe that's the problem. I assume that it's
being worked on.
You should not because you annoy people and demonstrate all the time
that you're unable to accept other people's opinion if they don't
exactly match your own. That's doing yourself a big disfavour. You
don't believe this, I know. It's hopeless.
> you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to
contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else?
> Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice
> of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other
> random thread on our lists ?
You are writing bullshit. Everybody else notices this. Except you.
> Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ?
The time will come when you will have less rights to post to the
Debian lists. Just continue.
> Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the
You are repeating that the request for suspension has anything to do
with your DPL candidacy, yet there's no such proof. This is FUD.
> truth to the best of my knowledge, which has not been the case of
Maybe your knowledge is not the best because it's based on the
assumption that you know what others think? Yet you fail to realise
that others are annoyed and offended by you and your actions.
> everyone here. As for dead horses, i am not dead yet.
You're not beating yourself. Not sure if you should...
> > true, but a pretty pointless one. As said numerous times, you would do
> > yourself and others a favour stopping that.
>
> It is not my fault it is a pointless one. Why can't we take this
Yes it is your fault.
> oportunity to finally handle this issue like it should have been from
> the start, and give debian a tool to really handle such social problems
> so it won't happen again in the future ?
Because nobody has invented such a tool yet. And even if that will be
the case in the future, I don't anticipate you to accept its handling
of the issue. Hence, its existence doesn't matter at all. LET IT GO SVEN!
> > > > I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> > > > this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
> > >
> > > Sure, but what will it bring ?
> >
> > Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the
> > situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'.
>
> To what end ? So we can have this same mess in two weeks ?
The so called mess is your flood of aggression, FUD and $whatever.
> > > Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
> > > on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
> > > to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
> >
> > The solution is you not having d-i commit permission. You don't accept
> > this.
>
> Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr>
> My responsability :
> - I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for
> debian and them.
Great! Now stop this rediculous thread and start living again.
> > Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while.
>
> Not due to my behaviour, due to unaceptable full play, and
> irregularities in the expulsion procedure. This is not the same, and
> this is the truth nobody wants me to claim loudly.
Yes, because of your own behaviour. Live with this. You are
responsible for how you are treated, not only and always other people.
> Well, i think you are wrong.
I know. You believe everybody is wrong and is after you. We all know
that. You have expressed this numerous times. No need to repeat that.
> The irregularities around the expulsion
> procedure are hurting deban, and many are outraged by it, even though
> they remain silent.
YOU are hurting Debian AND YOURSELF much more than the expulsion
procedure could ever do.
> But debian can grow up, and learn how to deal which such social crisis.
In theory you could grow up and accept the reality.
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Stephen Birch
> Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email
> archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because
> you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
You are filling inboxes with this drivel, it is as bad as a denial of
service attack.
Please stop! I beg you.
Oh heck, I just exacerbated the sven spam problem with *this* email.
Sorry guys.
Steve
Sven Luther
> On 11034 March 1977, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> >> > 14:27:44 < Ganneff> svenl: would you *ever* consider something as
> >> > "valid way out" thats not 100% what you want, ie "you all admit you
> >> > have been wrong"?
> >> > How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns,
> >> > Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : "you must first admit that
> >> > everything is your fault".
> >> That summary is not what I said in the quote above.
> > Care to elaborate ? It is pretty similar.
>
> Simple, as written above:
>
> Would you ever consider something as a valid way out if that way out
> does not include a full "drop suspension, give back d-i rights, full
> apology from Debian for whatever it did in the past to hurt you"?
Ok, please read :
Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr>
and then we can discuss. Also note, that i did stopped asking for d-i
rights over 6 months ago, if not more, and have told this numerous
times, including to you ?
> >> > Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to
> >> > happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way
> >> > have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been
> >> > wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution.
> >>
> >> The sign was big, really. It was a "take a *long* break, come back then"
> > No, the sign was that i was the sole one to blame in this mess, while
> > the responsabilities are shared. In the context of it, it was putting
> > all the responsability on me, and totally absolving the other party in
> > this. This is not fully your fault, since there was no global handling
> > of the situation, but still there was no sign, only punishment.
>
> Right, I was putting the blame only on you. Sure thats why I had a
> paragraph like the following in the decision.
>
> --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8---
> Yes, its not only Sven's fault that we got here. He is part of it,
> probably the largest part, but many others involved in this whole story
> did their own work in getting us to the point we are now. But right now,
> in this procedure, we had to decide about Sven, not about anyone
> else.
> --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8---
The fact remain, also, i asked that the more general solution be
examined, did you even care to reply to that mail ? Did you even show
you received it ? No.
Furthermore, just look at the amount of quotes against me, compared to
the ones in favour of me, and then ask yourself if you had been fair in
the handling. When you took all that days to compile this list of FUD
and caloumny, did you ever stop to think what effect it would have on me ?
So, i ask you again, why can we not have the whole issue solved ? Why
did you hide the dates of the expulsion procedure ? I want a fair
hairing. I want that debian dotes itself of a body capable of handling
such social issues in a fair and honourable way, composed of people who
can be trusted to be honest and fair, and who have a clue about social
and psychological dealings. I recognize that neither you nor James are
especially suited for these taks, i may be wrong about this, you will
tell me, but this is not the impression i get from you in the handling
of this issue. You may be full of good will, and the partial issue you
where handled didn't help much.
Still, one fact remains, i strongly believe that :
Debian cannot expulse or suspend someone for writing a lot of mails to
mailing lists.
Care to bring up a GR about this (i would, but i am suspended, and
coming from me, people will just knee jerk and make sure i am silenced,
so ...).
There is a void in the debian constitution about the social problems, a
void which leaved debian open to the worse escalation and impression of
full dealing, corruption and what else. Notice i say impression, but i
fear that more often than not impression is enough to do extreme hurt.
So, will you help clean up debian, and make sure something like what
happened never happens again ?
Sad that it all had to go this way, sad you DAMs chose not to handle
this at FOSDEM, in RL, sad that Debian devotes so much time and energy
in order to not solve its social problems, blindly hoping the problem
will go away. And i was told that i am far from being the only social
problem currently in debian. Won't we work to change that ?
Sadly,
Sven Luther
MJ Ray
> because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have
> in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions.
I'm working on this, but I am currently suffering a denial-of-service
attack from a thread about it on debian-project that's eating all the
(mental) bandwidth I can allocate to it. I suspect other DDs may be
either suffering the same problem or already be dropping the excess
data at their mail interface.
Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
Regards,
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:21:08PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > > > Sven,
> > > > >
> > > > > You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> > > > > arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people
> > > > > who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> > > > > like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> > > > > them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
> > > >
> > > > Possibly, but for two points :
> > > >
> > > > - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
> > > > read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
> > > > being involved.
> > >
> > > You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists
> > > either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why?
> >
> > Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email
> > archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because
>
> Technically you can. Maybe that's the problem. I assume that it's
> being worked on.
Yeah, right, so we should move this to another media. I asked that an in
RL meeting be hold, so we could solve this. I asked this since november
or so, but no response to it since then.
> You should not because you annoy people and demonstrate all the time
> that you're unable to accept other people's opinion if they don't
Hey, i accept other people's opinion. Especially if it is argumented.
Sure i have problem with people saying me shut up, and giving no
argumentation, and i have a tendency of repeating myself when faced with
people who accuse me of some thing, while ignoring that i have been
claiming the contrary for months.
> exactly match your own. That's doing yourself a big disfavour. You
> don't believe this, I know. It's hopeless.
I could say the same of you, you know, so where does this leave us ?
That is the disease of debian, in that it is composed of too many
over-proud people unable to make compromises. Don't you want to fix
debian so it can deal fairly even under those conditions ? And i am
probably more flexible and reasonable than all those of the other side
of this mess.
Care to give me a chance ?
> > you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> > of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
>
> Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to
> contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else?
Like you are just doing ? Well, this is honest discussion about a topic
which is bleeding raw in debian. It is a legitimate topic to speak
about, it is sad that this mess is the only way it can be expressed, but
what other solution is there ?
> > Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice
> > of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other
> > random thread on our lists ?
>
> You are writing bullshit. Everybody else notices this. Except you.
I am ? can you please argument and show what this bullshit is, instead
of ignoring the arguments which don't favour you and spreading FUD ?
> > Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ?
>
> The time will come when you will have less rights to post to the
> Debian lists. Just continue.
Right, i am trying to argument and discuss, and you are threatening me.
What happened to trying to argument instead ?
> > Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the
>
> You are repeating that the request for suspension has anything to do
> with your DPL candidacy, yet there's no such proof. This is FUD.
No it is not :
- the expulsion request was notified to me on the saturday of FOSDEM,
(even though it got lost), the procedure asked for 2 weeks to
requests supporters, this brings us to exactly 1 day after i offered
my DPL candidacy.
- Anthony Towns expressed his surprise at the request of january 7 or
so not being dropped, and said he didn't understand what was going
on.
- The DAMs removed all dates from the supporters mail, and included
various which where a year old, dating from Andres expulsion request
of last year, which he rescinded. They did not respond to repeated
requests to provide those mails.
- The expulsion supporters show various mails showing evidence of
Frans Pop actively campaigning to meet the deadline.
- Various people expressed the opinion that i candidated as DPL just
to gain another forum to speak about this mess, while this was not
my intention, and at that time i had largely forgotten the d-i
disaster, even greeting Frans friendly-y at FOSDEM, tried to hold a
discussion about the technical possibilities offered by the kernel
for the future of d-i, and even helped frans during his
presentation when he was having X troubles.
- I candidated as DPL, with the main idea to make Debian a place again
where the will to do things is what counts, and to remove the
frustration caused blockers that you see all around you, repeteadly,
and most of them not even remotely involving me. I didn't think that
i would win, didn't even wish to win as i would have been a bad DPL
because of this mess, but an honourable score around these themes
would have made those responsibles of those blockages think, and
helped a resolution of them in the future. Some people may have felt
threatened by this.
- There where wild accusations, which didn't come from me, and i had
real trouble believing in, which made this a manipulation by Joerg
Jaspert and the anti-Anthony Towns folk, to hurt his DPL candidacy.
This can be qualified as FUD, but i have not voiced it until today.
Still, that people even think about something like that is
troublesome in itself.
Well, this may not be asbolut truth, but are strong hints, and the fact
that the DAMs have repeatedly refused to comment on these issues, and
give access to the real data, is more than disturbing. I am not the only
one sharing these doubts, though. And dismissing this position as FUD,
without giving an argumentation, well, this doesn't seem like a strong
position on your part, and so the more reason to silence me by force.
And now, know something. I never knowingly lied or deformed the truth in
this, and if i have been mistaken, i have always honestly recognized my
fault when pointed out in an argumented way. Telling otherwise is
diffamation and caloumny of the worse kind, and a worse act that
anything i could have done here.
Now, if you could respond in an argumented way, and with evidence, we
could go somewhere.
> > truth to the best of my knowledge, which has not been the case of
>
> Maybe your knowledge is not the best because it's based on the
> assumption that you know what others think? Yet you fail to realise
> that others are annoyed and offended by you and your actions.
No, it is based on assumption i guess on the evidence, and which, when i
ask others about it, they fail to respond in an argumented way, or to
respond at all.
And sure, i believe my position disturbs many, and that this thread
disturbs the tranquility of everyone, but it is far not the ultimate
evil everyone is making of it.
> > everyone here. As for dead horses, i am not dead yet.
>
> You're not beating yourself. Not sure if you should...
:)
> > > true, but a pretty pointless one. As said numerous times, you would do
> > > yourself and others a favour stopping that.
> >
> > It is not my fault it is a pointless one. Why can't we take this
>
> Yes it is your fault.
Ok, let's argument. Why is it my fault. Do you see something i could
have done to make this not pointless ? Do you even have a clue of what i
am asking or are you still working on assumptions about what was said
about me more than 6 month ago like when you speak about the d-i commit
access.
> > oportunity to finally handle this issue like it should have been from
> > the start, and give debian a tool to really handle such social problems
> > so it won't happen again in the future ?
>
> Because nobody has invented such a tool yet. And even if that will be
Many have speaken about the social comittee, not even during a time i
was involved or about me. Nobody really tried to invent such a tool. I
have thought of it, and belive it is important for debian. I am planning
to reform the expulsion process, so it has none of the failing of the
current procedure, but well, i am hardly well placed to do this. We will
see.
> the case in the future, I don't anticipate you to accept its handling
> of the issue. Hence, its existence doesn't matter at all. LET IT GO SVEN!
How, was it you who where accusing me of believing i know what other
think ? Erm, it seems i am not the only in this failing. Does this mean
you should be expulsed too ?
> > > > > I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> > > > > this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, but what will it bring ?
> > >
> > > Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the
> > > situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'.
> >
> > To what end ? So we can have this same mess in two weeks ?
>
> The so called mess is your flood of aggression, FUD and $whatever.
There are two needed to create a mess, as there are two needed for
reconciliation.
I made numerous offers of reconciliation, but none was accepted or even
considered.
Let's work on a fair and honest resolution of this problem, and go back
to all happily coding ever after.
Who could reject that proposal ? What is so dangerous in it ? Why do i
need to be threatened and hurt because of it ?
> > > > Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
> > > > on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
> > > > to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
> > >
> > > The solution is you not having d-i commit permission. You don't accept
> > > this.
> >
> > Message-ID: <20070529103...@powerlinux.fr>
> > My responsability :
> > - I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for
> > debian and them.
>
> Great! Now stop this rediculous thread and start living again.
Then have debian drop the suspension, who nobody in his right mind can
defend, which was a stupid decision full of irregularities, which by
itself only proves my point. And let's instead work all together to
setting up a tool to handle social problems in the future, and toward
reconciliation.
Is this too much to ask ? Really ? What could you reasonably oppose to
it ?
> > > Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while.
> >
> > Not due to my behaviour, due to unaceptable full play, and
> > irregularities in the expulsion procedure. This is not the same, and
> > this is the truth nobody wants me to claim loudly.
>
> Yes, because of your own behaviour. Live with this. You are
> responsible for how you are treated, not only and always other people.
I share my fair part of responsability, but no more, just as others
share their part of responsability. The world is not black and white,
but full of different shades of grey, and even colours.
All i ask is a way to put this issue to a final rest in a fair and
honourable way, so we can all work on healing it, and look brightly at
the future.
Is this too much to ask ? Really ?
> > Well, i think you are wrong.
>
> I know. You believe everybody is wrong and is after you. We all know
> that. You have expressed this numerous times. No need to repeat that.
Funny, how you paint it all black and white, and ignore all
argumentation in your discourse. And given that even after months and
months of me saying mostly the same thing, you and others still seem to
believe only what they think i say instead of what i really say, i guess
there is indeed a need for repetition.
> > The irregularities around the expulsion
> > procedure are hurting deban, and many are outraged by it, even though
> > they remain silent.
>
> YOU are hurting Debian AND YOURSELF much more than the expulsion
> procedure could ever do.
Ah, yeah, right. What damage could i do to myself after the DAMs
decision, i have nothing to lose, they took all from me, without giving
me any chance, juts because the other party was more influent. Let me
quote you an anonymous DD :
I really want to know, as i personal believe that there really was
foul play by some parties.
and this is indeed coherent with this current tentative to silence me.
> > But debian can grow up, and learn how to deal which such social crisis.
>
> In theory you could grow up and accept the reality.
Yes, as in theory you could grow up and accept it yourself. This mail
proves that i am much more mature than you in this aspect at least,
which is a shame, since i admired you since the first time we meet in
oldenburg 98.
How sad, ...
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> wrote: [...]
> > because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have
> > in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions.
>
> I'm working on this, but I am currently suffering a denial-of-service
> attack from a thread about it on debian-project that's eating all the
> (mental) bandwidth I can allocate to it. I suspect other DDs may be
> either suffering the same problem or already be dropping the excess
> data at their mail interface.
>
> Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
Lively discussion is a sign of good health in any project; If the other
party stopped they argument-less trolling, it would be much easier to
hold a meaningfull conversation.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
Andreas Barth
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
>
> Lively discussion
Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS.
Andi
--
http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
Sven Luther
> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 22:05]:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
> >
> > Lively discussion
>
> Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS.
Then offer me a different medium. Then respond to my requests of an in
RL meeting, or setup an irc meeting with rules, or propose another
media, like a web pages, with an impartial judge and transparent
handling. Or go ahead an create the social comittee so many have asked
for to deal with this issue.
I refuse to go private with these discussions, and the folk i discuss
with, like you here, will hear me because i CC them, and we can have
many small-scale discussion in an documented, open and transparent way.
Sure, mail is not the best media, let's find something else, but the
status quo is not acceptable to me, despite all those whose sole
argument is "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AND LIVE WITH IT".
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Joey Schulze
> Care to give me a chance ?
You've had your chances, Sven.
You're restarting with the old pattern, always.
> > > you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> > > of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
> >
> > Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to
> > contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else?
>
> Like you are just doing ?
Ok. I will shut up now. Live well. It was fun to work
together with you a couple of years ago.
Joey
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Mike Bird
> You are wrong, you still need a impartial judge. Tell me where in debian
> i do find such ? That is the main problem, any argumentation is just
> lost time without a fair hearing and an impartial judge.
>
> If you can find an impartial judge which will not be dismissed by debian
> or blackmailed, then i will take the time to do so.
Sven,
You're making progress but there is still an error in your logic.
If you don't believe the judge you choose will ever under any
circumstances grant you the relief you desire, then you kick
yourself and get on with your life. You don't whine online.
If on the other hand you believe that there is a possibility
that the DPL or DAMs or DDs or your local municipal court judge
or the international criminal court in the Hague may rule in
your favor, then you put in the effort to properly prepare
your case using the same brain you use for your technical
work. You don't whine online.
Under no circumstances is whining online a sensible policy.
Go to it, and good luck.
--Mike Bird
Sven Luther
> Hi,
>
> On Tuesday 29 May 2007 22:05, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Lively discussion is a sign of good health in any project;
>
> not always :-)
Well, among all those here, you are the only one who spoke with me at
debconf, and lost the oportunity to help diffuse the issue :)
Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo,
something to be hidden and ashamed of.
Sven Luther
> On Tuesday 29 May 2007 11:58, Sven Luther wrote:
> > You are wrong, you still need a impartial judge. Tell me where in debian
> > i do find such ? That is the main problem, any argumentation is just
> > lost time without a fair hearing and an impartial judge.
> >
> > If you can find an impartial judge which will not be dismissed by debian
> > or blackmailed, then i will take the time to do so.
>
> Sven,
>
> You're making progress but there is still an error in your logic.
Is there ?
> If you don't believe the judge you choose will ever under any
> circumstances grant you the relief you desire, then you kick
> yourself and get on with your life. You don't whine online.
Nope, which is why i asked Wouter and Andreas Schuldei to be part of the
mediation comittee. I believe that the judge in question should be
unquestionly honest and fair, and recognized as such by either side.
> If on the other hand you believe that there is a possibility
> that the DPL or DAMs or DDs or your local municipal court judge
> or the international criminal court in the Hague may rule in
> your favor, then you put in the effort to properly prepare
> your case using the same brain you use for your technical
> work. You don't whine online.
>
> Under no circumstances is whining online a sensible policy.
Erm, what about all those folks protesting in the street against this or
that unjust handling, ? Is this not a sensible policy ? It is the only
way open to the oppresed except armed revolution.
> Go to it, and good luck.
You still haven't commented on the original wiki page. Tell me what i
should have done with it so it could have had more success than it did.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > Care to give me a chance ?
>
> You've had your chances, Sven.
When ?
> You're restarting with the old pattern, always.
>
> > > > you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> > > > of the mailing lists than you or others do ?
> > >
> > > Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to
> > > contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else?
> >
> > Like you are just doing ?
>
> Ok. I will shut up now. Live well. It was fun to work
> together with you a couple of years ago.
Ah, neat, so when faced with facts, and argumented decision, suddenly
there is nobody there anymore ?
Sadly,
Sven Luther
Roger Leigh
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:11:01PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
>> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 22:05]:
>> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
>> > > Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
>> >
>> > Lively discussion
>>
>> Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS.
>
> Then offer me a different medium.
Please gather all your thoughts on the subject and write a letter, as
concisely and to the point as possible. Print out 1000 copies and
mail ONE COPY ONLY to each developer.
> Then respond to my requests of an in RL meeting, or setup an irc
> meeting with rules, or propose another media, like a web pages, with
> an impartial judge and transparent handling. Or go ahead an create
> the social comittee so many have asked for to deal with this issue.
Why do you need an "impartial judge"? This is a communal volunteer
project, not a court of law. Like it or not, you need to be able to
cooperate with your fellow developers, despite their potential biases,
likes and dislikes. Can't get along with particular folks? Then move
on and do something more productive, or learn to work with them
nicely. Complaining more won't help--we have already heard the
arguments enough times over the last few years.
We get that you can't work with certain developers. That's a problem
you have not made sufficient efforts to either resolve or avoid.
There was never a need to let things get this bad, but you did and are
continuting to do so with this huge spam flood. Deal with it and
carry on with life. Life isn't perfect; the rest of us accept that we
don't always get our own way (irrespective of the rights and wrongs of
the matter in question), and move on from that.
> Sure, mail is not the best media, let's find something else, but the
> status quo is not acceptable to me, despite all those whose sole
> argument is "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AND LIVE WITH IT".
That's just the way things really and truly are. That's the reality,
whether you like it or not.
If you want to change it, you need to make a big effort to rectify the
damage you have caused to your relations with your fellow developers.
Is this possible at this stage? I don't know. It's largely up to you
to do it if you can.
Regards,
Roger
--
.''`. Roger Leigh
: :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
`. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/
`- GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail.
Roger Leigh
> Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo,
> something to be hidden and ashamed of.
Oftentimes, problems magically resolve themselves of their own accord
when we ignore them for a while, and everyone forgets that they ever
existed.
Picking at things can make them worse, and you are succeeding well at
making an otherwise small and inconsequential issue (from the
perspective of the project as a whole) that may have resolved itself
with time into something that the whole project is now aware of (and
also quite tired to hearing about). Doing this has not helped you in
any way!
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> writes:
>
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:11:01PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> >> * Sven Luther (lut...@debian.org) [070529 22:05]:
> >> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> >> > > Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread.
> >> >
> >> > Lively discussion
> >>
> >> Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS.
> >
> > Then offer me a different medium.
>
> Please gather all your thoughts on the subject and write a letter, as
> concisely and to the point as possible. Print out 1000 copies and
> mail ONE COPY ONLY to each developer.
Mmm, i guess a web page will do just as nicely, and cost less, no ? But
i already tried this with :
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther
to no avail.
> > Then respond to my requests of an in RL meeting, or setup an irc
> > meeting with rules, or propose another media, like a web pages, with
> > an impartial judge and transparent handling. Or go ahead an create
> > the social comittee so many have asked for to deal with this issue.
>
> Why do you need an "impartial judge"? This is a communal volunteer
Well, it seems obvious to me. A partial judge, who takes side with one
of the parties stands no chance to giving a fair ruling. Since both the
previous DPL and the DAMs have set themselves out as judge, the court of
law analogy is valid.
> project, not a court of law. Like it or not, you need to be able to
> cooperate with your fellow developers, despite their potential biases,
> likes and dislikes. Can't get along with particular folks? Then move
Yes, but does this also apply to the other DDs or just me ? If some
other folk have problems with me, then they should learn to work with
me, or try to move on and work on something else, instead of hunding me
down and trying every trick to make my live impossible.
In particular, the expulsion request on february 7 or thereabout was
*NOT* justified, nor was the ban proposal by Fabio after christmas.
> on and do something more productive, or learn to work with them
> nicely. Complaining more won't help--we have already heard the
> arguments enough times over the last few years.
and do you deny that i am at least partly justified ?
> We get that you can't work with certain developers. That's a problem
Nope, here :
is proof that this is not true. These other developers you mention
cannot work with me, and did everything possible to harras me.
> you have not made sufficient efforts to either resolve or avoid.
Ah, i did not ? Please reread that wiki page, and repeat that to me ?
Please tell me what was wrong with the two month self-imposed ban i
accepted on january-february ?
> There was never a need to let things get this bad, but you did and are
Sorry, but it was not me which rekindled the fire after chirstmas, nor
was it me who asked for the expulsion again in february, both time
without any provocation.
> continuting to do so with this huge spam flood. Deal with it and
> carry on with life. Life isn't perfect; the rest of us accept that we
> don't always get our own way (irrespective of the rights and wrongs of
> the matter in question), and move on from that.
Yep, and each time i tried to move on, i got another agression. And
please reread the DAMs judgement, and come tell me it was not an
agression ?
> > Sure, mail is not the best media, let's find something else, but the
> > status quo is not acceptable to me, despite all those whose sole
> > argument is "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AND LIVE WITH IT".
>
> That's just the way things really and truly are. That's the reality,
> whether you like it or not.
It is just the way things are *BECAUSE YOU AND OTHER DDs CHOSE TO LET IT
HAPPEN*.
> If you want to change it, you need to make a big effort to rectify the
> damage you have caused to your relations with your fellow developers.
Ah, right ? something like :
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther#head-1ddf2df9a9ca7cdebacd7821b8692b44552a0b0e
An last a personal message to Frans, remember when we where in
Extremadura, we had a good time, and we worked side by side. I
seriously lament that it all degenerated like it did. I certainly have
my part of responsability in this, but i passed though times, as you
know. Let's put pride and arrogance and remembrance of past hurts
aside, and let's again work on d-i all together, as it should be.
Or the repeated other efforts i have made since last year to reach a
compromise and a reconciliation ? Did you see any result on this ? No,
only worse agression. An expulsion request which was totally unprovoked,
while i had not posted a single mail for a whole month.
> Is this possible at this stage? I don't know. It's largely up to you
> to do it if you can.
No, it never was upto me. Nothing i could have done would have changed
how things went, and it did happen so, because Debian let it happen, and
even encouraged it.
And if you don't agree with this, please point it out with argumented
facts.
Sadly,
Sven Luther
>
>
> Regards,
> Roger
>
> --
> .''`. Roger Leigh
> : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
> `. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/
> `- GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail.
--
Sven Luther
> Sven Luther <lut...@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo,
> > something to be hidden and ashamed of.
>
> Oftentimes, problems magically resolve themselves of their own accord
> when we ignore them for a while, and everyone forgets that they ever
> existed.
Only if they are based on a sane basis. The current situation is not
this case, it is based on injustice and unfairness, on hate and hurting,
on "you should first recognize that everything is your fault". On making
one party the judge of the others good behaviour, when said other party
is known to be stubborn and proud, and the fault is shared.
There is no way such a situation could heal itself by magic over time,
it can only fester, and i have told this since over a year ago.
> Picking at things can make them worse, and you are succeeding well at
> making an otherwise small and inconsequential issue (from the
> perspective of the project as a whole) that may have resolved itself
> with time into something that the whole project is now aware of (and
> also quite tired to hearing about). Doing this has not helped you in
> any way!
No, because the there is an incredible expense of effort on the part of
the Project to not solve it, except by applying brute force in order to
silence me. I really don't understand how the other DDs can accept this.
My current guess is that most don't, but are indeed not wanting to be
remembered about it, but kind of feel sick about the whole issue.
So, i am as sick of everyone else about this mess, but just being silent
is no solution, i have had no response about my repeated request that
this be handled globally and fairly, preferably in an in-RL meeting, or
in some other way.
So, you say that this does not help me, but nothing else has, so ...
sadly,
Charles Plessy
>
> Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS.
Dear all,
Somehow, I can't help thinking that 50 % of the emails in this thread
are not written by Sven...
Have a nice day,
--
Charles Plessy
http://charles.plessy.org
Wako, Saitama, Japan
Andres Salomon
[...]
>
> And if some threaten to leave the project because i am not punished,
> then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour
> will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be
> encouraged.
>
Comedy gold. Thank you, Sven; this made my day!
Philippe Cloutier
> hit, and the terror methods of one Chealer who believed himself master
> of the wiki.
If you think that I've done something wrong on the wiki, I recommend
that you let me know directly, rather than whining about it here. If I
don't understand what you're reproaching to me, others won't neither.
And by the way, if you find the time to send over 50 mails to
debian-project in 3 days, perhaps you could find some to answer the
question you were asked over one month ago on the discussion page about
your set of pages?