forums.debian.net - who's in charge?

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey folks,

Does anybody claim to be an active admin for forums.debian.net at the
moment? We've had several people contacting the Community Team
recently who have told us they're not getting any response when
contacting the admin contact address above.

forums.d.n is not listed on the wiki at

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianNetDomains

but LDAP suggests that Ganneff might have once touched it.

Is anybody still in charge of the service? If not, maybe we should
shut it down or remove the DNS records for it rather than pretend it's
a good/safe place for our users.

--
Steve McIntyre 93...@debian.org
Debian Community Team comm...@debian.org

[Felix Lechner]

Hi,

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 6:33 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>
> If not, maybe we should
> shut it down or remove the DNS records for it rather than pretend it's
> a good/safe place for our users.

Seems like a reasonably popular service, although I never use it:

> In total there are 243 users online :: 1 registered, 3 hidden and 239 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
> Most users ever online was 1682 on 2020-10-25 15:07
> Total posts 661763 • Total topics 96852 • Total members 47016

The aggregate numbers seem to cover 17 years or so, for about one
hundred posts per day.

All the posts I saw were technical in nature. What's unsafe about it, please?

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[Steve McIntyre]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 07:58:33AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
>Hi,
>

>On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:34 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>>
>> It's better to do something about
>> that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
>> bad things to happen.
>
>I agree with that sentiment, but in light of other efforts to limit
>public discourse—such as shortening the discussion period on a
>controversial GR—it seems poor timing to shut down a public forum.

Is that you volunteering to be an admin, then...?

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
"I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm
afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Das Mohapatra

[Steve McIntyre]

If we don't have anybody ready and able to respond to abuse complaints
(for example), then it's not safe. It's better to do something about

that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
bad things to happen.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com

The two hard things in computing:
* naming things
* cache invalidation
* off-by-one errors -- Stig Sandbeck Mathisen

[Felix Lechner]

Hi,

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:34 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>
> It's better to do something about
> that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
> bad things to happen.

I agree with that sentiment, but in light of other efforts to limit
public discourse—such as shortening the discussion period on a
controversial GR—it seems poor timing to shut down a public forum.

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[Donald Norwood]

Hi,

On 3/29/21 11:03 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 07:58:33AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:34 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's better to do something about
>>> that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
>>> bad things to happen.
>>
>> I agree with that sentiment, but in light of other efforts to limit
>> public discourse—such as shortening the discussion period on a
>> controversial GR—it seems poor timing to shut down a public forum.
>
> Is that you volunteering to be an admin, then...?
>

Is there a set of documentation/rules in place for it? I can assist if
needed under publicity/press. Technically it could be considered media.

Be well,
-Donald

--
--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

[Martin Meredith]

Nominally, I was put in charge a while back, as whoever was in charge of it at the time didn’t want to be involved any more, and there was a need for something to be done related to the software/server (I can’t quite remember) - which is where Joerg was involved.

There was a LOT of controversy at the time, as I put in place a team of (volunteer, non DD) moderators and admins - some of the community decided that this was a restriction of their free speech, branded me a nazi, and split off to make their own “competitor” forums.

I didn’t want to be particularly involved after all of that, and made this clear to the team and those involved. I did ask for assistance in various places at the time, but to no avail.

I’ve voiced my opinion on multiple occasions that it should be taken down, or taken over by someone with the will to work on it, but whilst no ones been willing to step up and take it on, the general consensus was that it would be better to exist than to not.

Last I left the forums, it was being led by a small team of admins and mods who cad proven themselves as competent and capable, and I had left them to manage this on their own, with a request to reach out to me if they needed assistance.

The forums are a “community” forums, not official “Debian” forums, so it’s hard to lead - those who are toxic within the official community get dealt with via DAM or similar, but minuscule actions on the forums have previously led to “outcry” (threats of brigading complaints to DAM/DPL about me, for example).

I honestly don’t think that the forum is worth it, and I think it would be safer if there were more DDs involved, rather than just the community.

> On 29 Mar 2021, at 16:04, Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 16087 March 1977, Martin Meredith wrote:

> Nominally, I was put in charge a while back, as whoever was in charge
> of it at the time didn’t want to be involved any more, and there was a
> need for something to be done related to the software/server (I can’t
> quite remember) - which is where Joerg was involved.

And yup, thats where I was, well still am, in.

I *do* have admin access on the web part too, but I always said I won't
use that for normal day-to-day forums stuff, only when required for
machine maintenance works.

So yeah, I have access, but I am not really interested in the user
facing part of it. If someone (a team, possibly with tight connections
to Debian, so contributor/project member?!) is, I am (and I think Martin
too) are happy to hand out access on the web.

--
bye, Joerg

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey Donald,

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 01:32:32PM -0400, Donald Norwood wrote:
>On 3/29/21 11:03 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 07:58:33AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:34 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's better to do something about
>>>> that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
>>>> bad things to happen.
>>>
>>> I agree with that sentiment, but in light of other efforts to limit
>>> public discourse—such as shortening the discussion period on a
>>> controversial GR—it seems poor timing to shut down a public forum.
>>
>> Is that you volunteering to be an admin, then...?
>
>Is there a set of documentation/rules in place for it? I can assist if
>needed under publicity/press. Technically it could be considered media.

I think the key piece I'm looking for is people prepared to admin and
monitor the forums as a safe place for Debian users. Documenting what
that means shouldn't be too hard - we'd want to see our existing CoC
applied.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
-- Bertrand Russell

[Steve McIntyre]

[ Responding to both Mez and Ganneff ]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 06:50:00PM +0100, Martin Meredith wrote:

>Nominally, I was put in charge a while back, as whoever was in charge
>of it at the time didn’t want to be involved any more, and there was
>a need for something to be done related to the software/server (I
>can’t quite remember) - which is where Joerg was involved.
>

>There was a LOT of controversy at the time, as I put in place a team
>of (volunteer, non DD) moderators and admins - some of the community
>decided that this was a restriction of their free speech, branded me
>a nazi, and split off to make their own “competitor” forums.

How "nice" of them. :-/

>I didn’t want to be particularly involved after all of that, and made
>this clear to the team and those involved. I did ask for assistance
>in various places at the time, but to no avail.

ACK, that matches my recollection as an outside observer at the
time. I understand your position, and it's a shame you didn't get more
help at the time... :-(

>I’ve voiced my opinion on multiple occasions that it should be taken
>down, or taken over by someone with the will to work on it, but
>whilst no ones been willing to step up and take it on, the general
>consensus was that it would be better to exist than to not.

Hmmm, Considering some of the complaints that we've had, I'm more
convinced of the opposite now.

>Last I left the forums, it was being led by a small team of admins
>and mods who cad proven themselves as competent and capable, and I
>had left them to manage this on their own, with a request to reach
>out to me if they needed assistance.
>
>The forums are a “community” forums, not official “Debian” forums, so
>it’s hard to lead - those who are toxic within the official community
>get dealt with via DAM or similar, but minuscule actions on the
>forums have previously led to “outcry” (threats of brigading
>complaints to DAM/DPL about me, for example).
>
>I honestly don’t think that the forum is worth it, and I think it
>would be safer if there were more DDs involved, rather than just the
>community.

Right.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 11:20:46PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>
>I *do* have admin access on the web part too, but I always said I won't use
>that for normal day-to-day forums stuff, only when required for machine
>maintenance works.
>
>So yeah, I have access, but I am not really interested in the user facing
>part of it. If someone (a team, possibly with tight connections to Debian, so
>contributor/project member?!) is, I am (and I think Martin too) are happy to
>hand out access on the web.

So I've been hoping that we might actually get some responses from the
existing community-based admins to this thread. Are any of them of the
teams@ email alias there?

As it stands, we're getting complaints elsewhere in Debian about toxic
behaviour and attitudes on the forums. Simply put, bad behaviour there
is hurting users and giving Debian a bad name. Neither of those are
acceptable for a service that many of our users believe is part of
(and run by) Debian.

If anybody has contact details for the existing admins, please ask
them to respond to me. If we don't get something sensible going *soon*
I'll have no choice but to ask DSA to remove the DNS for the service.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com

"I've only once written 'SQL is my bitch' in a comment. But that code
is in use on a military site..." -- Simon Booth

[Donald Norwood]

Hi Steve,

On 3/30/21 3:14 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Hey Donald,

>
> I think the key piece I'm looking for is people prepared to admin and
> monitor the forums as a safe place for Debian users. Documenting what
> that means shouldn't be too hard - we'd want to see our existing CoC
> applied.
>

I'll step up to help admin/manage the process if the admin teams are
unable to at this time. Ideally a few other DDs will join the effort,
but for now we can try to save it with some moderation or in the least a
presence.

Best wishes,

[Martin Meredith]

If you want to register an account, and let me know what it is i can give you access - though we have had a few glitches recently with people complaining about not being able to read the captcha

> On 30 Mar 2021, at 21:28, Donald Norwood <don...@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,

[Felix Lechner]

Hi Donald,

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:38 PM Donald Norwood <don...@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Ideally a few other DDs will join

I would be happy to assist you in a subordinate capacity, if needed.

My user name is 'lechner'. I tried three captchas, and there was no TLS.

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[Martin Meredith]

Hi Felix,

I've also added you to the admin group.

The technical side of things does need a fair bit of work (the forums need an upgrade, we need to add Let's Encrypt etc).

[Steve McIntyre]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 10:50:40PM +0100, Martin Meredith wrote:
>I've contacted the admins personally - and posted a thread about this in the
>"staff" section of the forums, so I hope people will get involved.
>
>I've also replied to this thread privately (not wanting to expose anyone's
>contact details who may or may not want them so) so that the current admins can
>be involved, if they wish.

Thanks Martin, that's very helpful!

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com

There's no sensation to compare with this
Suspended animation, A state of bliss

[Martin Meredith]

I've contacted the admins personally - and posted a thread about this in the "staff" section of the forums, so I hope people will get involved.

I've also replied to this thread privately (not wanting to expose anyone's contact details who may or may not want them so) so that the current admins can be involved, if they wish.

[Donald Norwood]

Hi, everyone!

Ok, I'm in and I see that Felix has been added as well.

On 3/30/21 5:44 PM, Martin Meredith wrote:

> The technical side of things does need a fair bit of work (the forums need an upgrade, we need to add Let's Encrypt etc).

We can start a thread in the admin area regarding this stuff so we don't
clutter this -list, but yes I do see a few areas that some updates are
needed like the templates for example.

Martin, past all of that thank you very much for doing what you could
there and replying here to us trying to help. Not an easy task and it is
certainly not filled with enough thanks.

>
> On Mar 30 2021, at 10:38 pm, Felix Lechner <felix....@lease-up.com> wrote:
>> Hi Donald,
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:38 PM Donald Norwood <don...@debian.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ideally a few other DDs will join
>>
>> I would be happy to assist you in a subordinate capacity, if needed.
>> My user name is 'lechner'. I tried three captchas, and there was no TLS.

Awesome. We can buddy up, no need for subordinate anythings except for
CA's. :)

Best,

[Roger E]

Hi good people

I'm a junior member of the admin team at forums.debian.net. I'll just
copy/paste my reply to the thread Mez has started in the admin chat
section of the forums:

>>>"I read that mailing list thread but don't get the point. The only
concerns about "safety" I know of concern the fact the forums are http,
not https.
I've been a member of the forums since 2006 and Spam Hunter for a year
or so. IMO the forums have improved over that time and the current admin
team do an admirable job.
Banning of members is almost exclusively for spammers, with only 1 or 2
others this year for bad behaviour and then only temporarily.
An FAQ section has been introduced which has helped to reduce the
incidence of "go RTFM" to virtually nil. Try that on the Arch forums
which are much more elitist than FDN. The participation of DDs to answer
some of the more difficult technical questions would be welcomed
although there are some quite knowledgeable regulars and very few
questions go unanswered.
The main concern for admins is the lack of maintenance on the servers
where there have been reports that CAPTCHA doesn't work properly and the
listed admin contact emails are not contactable. Thanks Mez for what you
do but the servers' software seems to need more regular attention.

The forums contain an encyclopaedia of Debian knowledge and answers to
both common and rare issues, and is obviously way more popular as a
reference than a simple post count would suggest as there are usually
hundreds of people reading at any time - currently "In total there are
200 users online :: 1 registered, 2 hidden and 197 guests (based on
users active over the past 5 minutes)". To close the forums would be a
travesty and leave a major vacuum in online knowledge and assistance for
Debian users.

To alleviate those occasional complaints about safety, enable https.

And I would suspect the complaints alluded to on the mailing list may
have come from someone like bkpsusmitaa who has been a serial menace and
was just banned for a week for abusing the post report system. You can
check if the IP they come from was from Barrackpore and Mysore, most
recently 117.208.152.101 .
The supposed complaints are likely an attempt to disrupt by someone with
an axe to grind. I'm very interested to read exactly what those
complaints are. The admin team have not received any recently to my
knowledge."

Respectfully

Roger E.

[Matthew Hoare]

Hello, I'm one of the forums.debian.net moderators, user name "Head_on_a_Stick".

> Considering some of the complaints that we've had

Might I inquire as to the nature of these complaints?

I can be fairly short with Help Vampires but I don't think I've
violated the CoC.

--
Matthew T Hoare, London.

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi all,

I'm willing to help on admin tasks.
My username is "phls".

Best regards,

--
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Debian Developer
Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
Site: http://phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719 GPG ID: 0443C450