What is an official sub-project of Debian?
Martin Michlmayr
Debonaras (Debian On Nas And Routers And Stuff) to become an official
sub-project of Debian. Branden responded that he was at a conference
and that he'll respond in more detail later; in the meantime, we can
say that we're "seeking status as an official subproject". Talking to
some other people about sub-projects, they said that that one can
become an official sub-project either through the DPL or
debian-project, but nobody really knew for sure...
At the moment, it's not clear how something becomes an official
sub-project and what this status entails. I therefore thought that
I'd forward the original message to debian-project so we can have a
discussion about this. It's not as if Debonaras is the only project
in this situation. In the past, we have had discussions about
projects which called themselves "official" even though it wasn't very
clear that they were officially endorsed. In fact, a similar
question was raised just a few days ago regarding an effort to
produce a live CD of Debian [1, 2].
There are a number of questions, such as:
- What kind of requirements does a project have to be an official
sub-project?
In the past, the point was raised that they have to follow the
constitution of Debian, e.g. be accountable to the DPL or GRs.
Another question is how many official Debian developers you
need to have involved to be an official sub-project. Does the
project need to use debian.org infrastructure, or can they use
their own infrastructure?
- Can sub-projects handle their own finances, and e.g. ask for
donations (helpful for projects such as Debonaras, which needs
to buy hardware for their porting efforts). What about
accountability?
I'm sure there are lots of other questions. I hope that we can have a
productive discussion and in the end come up with some guidelines
against which future prospective sub-projects can be measured.
[1] http://blog.philkern.de/archives/134-Re-Debian-Live-Ressources-sic.html
[2] http://blog.daniel-baumann.ch/2006/02/28#20060228_re_debian-live-ressources
* Rod Whitby <r...@whitby.id.au> [2006-01-28 10:05]:
> To: Branden Robinson / Debian Project Leader <lea...@debian.org>
> Cc: spi-...@lists.spi-inc.org, Martin Michlmayr <t...@cyrius.com>,
> Lennert Buytenhek <buy...@wantstofly.org>
> Dear Branden,
>
> I lead the NSLU2-Linux project (http://www.nslu2-linux.org) which
> develops custom firmware images for the Linksys NSLU2, an ARM based
> consumer network attached storage device, as well as other similar
> devices (Iomega NAS 100d, Synology DS-101, etc). I also lead
> the Debonaras project (Debian on NAS and Routers and Stuff -
> http://www.debonaras.org). That project has a charter of porting the
> Debian distribution to consumer devices (NAS devices, routers, etc)
> with attached storage. The presence of large attached storage
> means that we can run the full Debian distribution, rather than
> having to resort to minimal distribution installations like
> Emdebian.
>
> For some time now we have been developing support for running Debian on
> the NSLU2. Recently, we joined our efforts with two Debian developers,
> Joey Hess and Martin Michlmayr, and we're working with them to merge
> out efforts into Debian proper. This effort has now come to the point
> where we are ready to release official Debian installer images for the
> device as part of debian-installer. We have a page called "DebianSlug"
> ("Slug" is the common name for the NSLU2 device) at
> http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/DebianSlug/HomePage
> which gives installation instructions about Debian on the NSLU2.
>
> This effort has been very successful, but as mentioned above we see it
> as only the first starting point in a much bigger mission: to port
> Debian to a wide range of embedded devices with attached storage,
> which are becoming increasingly popular. We have set up the Debonaras
> project ("Debian on NAS and Routers and Stuff"), and would like to ask
> for permission to join Debian as an official sub-project, in a similar
> fashion to the Emdebian project.
>
> Apart from the porting effort to the NSLU2, in which some Debian
> developers are involved, the Debonaras project is also supporting
> (through shared development resources, and some buildd hardware)
> the effort behind the armeb (big-endian ARM) port of Debian (which
> is related to Debonaras but separately led by Lennert Buytenhek); we're
> working closely with Andreas Barth and Wouter Verhelst, who make
> sure that only official Debian developers upload "sid" packages
> to armeb.debian.net so the can port later be integrated into the
> Debian archive.
>
> I'm aware that there is no formal policy about Debian sub-projects.
> We believe, however, that we are a good candidate for a sub-project
> and we are fully committed to integrating our work into Debian.
> As mentioned above, we also have a number of Debian developers on
> our team, and some other members (including myself) are in the process
> of becoming Debian developers themselves.
>
> As a sub-project of Debian, we would integrate all of our work into
> Debian. Our web site, http://www.debonaras.org would mainly act as
> a starting point for people interested in Debian on NAS and other
> devices, and to provide installation instructions that are not within
> the scope of the Debian installation guide. As such, Debonaras
> would mainly act as a community resource to bring developers together
> and to provide support for users.
>
> I think this is fully in line with other sub-projects and I hope
> that you can grant us permission to use the Debian name and give us
> official blessing as a sub-project of Debian. There's only one
> major issue which may require further discussion - that of donations.
> As far as I can tell, there is no policy as to whether sub-projects
> may solicit donations. Given that we port Debian to various devices,
> we can benefit from donations in order to purchase hardware for
> developers (as the NSLU2-Linux project did for Joey Hess and Martin
> Michlmayr). Is it okay for a sub-project of Debian to accept
> donations? I assume it is since there are various organizations which
> handle donations and operate fairly autonomously (although, of course,
> with advice of the DPL), such as Debian UK. In any case, this is an
> issues which can be discussed in more detail later, and donations could
> also be handled through a separate project, such as NSLU2-Linux.
>
> The big question is whether you can give us the go-ahead to use the
> Debian name for Debonaras and to join Debian as an official sub-project.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you and to working closely with you and
> Debian.
>
> Thanks for your time and attention to this matter,
>
> -- Rod Whitby
> -- NSLU2-Linux and Debonaras Project Lead
--
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/
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MJ Ray
> We contacted Branden/DPL about a month ago to seek permission for
> Debonaras (Debian On Nas And Routers And Stuff) to become an official
> sub-project of Debian. Branden responded that he was at a conference
Was that contact was the message you forwarded? Maybe it should be
a bit more direct and use bullet points to make it easier to spot
the questions. I saw the big question and one other easily, though.
> There are a number of questions, such as:
> - What kind of requirements does a project have to be an official
> sub-project?
I expect official sub-projects:
1. to be listed on http://www.de.debian.org/devel/#projects
2. follow some published and fairly agreeable guidelines like
http://people.debian.org/~synrg/subproject-howto.html/
(when it appears under GPL or other free software terms
and so has more completed sections added... :-/ )
3. be ultimately accountable to the Debian project somehow and
not just "back us or sack us".
After all, such a project is claiming a close tie to Debian,
so I think these are reasonable expectations.
> In the past, the point was raised that they have to follow the
> constitution of Debian, e.g. be accountable to the DPL or GRs.
I don't think following the constitution is important (mostly,
it's up to the project how it organises itself) but I think
accountability is. If something about a subproject motivates DDs
enough to pass a GR, that should be respected or the subproject
should fork off.
> Another question is how many official Debian developers you
> need to have involved to be an official sub-project. Does the
> project need to use debian.org infrastructure, or can they use
> their own infrastructure?
I'd say no, but doing so makes it harder to fork off, so could
be considered an act of good faith in the future.
On the number of DDs, I think it doesn't matter, but more DDs
makes it easier to handle requirements 1 and 3 above.
> - Can sub-projects handle their own finances, and e.g. ask for
> donations (helpful for projects such as Debonaras, which needs
> to buy hardware for their porting efforts). What about
> accountability?
I'd say yes, but it should be done through some natural or legal
person approved by the DPL and the appropriate government/taxman
and the accounts should be visible to Debian.
> * Rod Whitby <r...@whitby.id.au> [2006-01-28 10:05]:
> > [...] Is it okay for a sub-project of Debian to accept
> > donations? I assume it is since there are various organizations which
> > handle donations and operate fairly autonomously (although, of course,
> > with advice of the DPL), such as Debian UK. [...]
AIUI Debian UK is a commercial trader which has been licensed the
trademark by the current DPL. I see it as a separate business
venture of some DDs who used to sell stuff from Debian stands
at UK trade fairs, not a subproject. I am unhappy it seemed to
get a one-off licence so lightly, before RAND or GPL terms are
ready, and there is no suggestion that it will ever expire.
I hope that reminder doesn't detract from the main discussion.
Best wishes,
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
Andreas Tille
> I expect official sub-projects:
> 1. to be listed on http://www.de.debian.org/devel/#projects
This makes the requirement that the project has at least one
person with access to the web CVS or is able to convince one
person of the web team.
> 2. follow some published and fairly agreeable guidelines like
> http://people.debian.org/~synrg/subproject-howto.html/
> (when it appears under GPL or other free software terms
> and so has more completed sections added... :-/ )
Please note that this document was move to chapter 7 of the
CDD documentation (GPLed and packged in cdd-doc):
http://people.debian.org/~tille/cdd/ch-starting.en.html
While not every subproject (we called it Debian Internal projects)
is a CDD the guidelines might fit for any subproject. A little
bit of history: Formerly we called technical and user oriented
projects "Debian internal project". At DebConf 3 in Oslo we
found a new name for those user oriented projects to differentiate
from the technical projects. In principle we do not really
a policy for those internal projects but people who do the
work
1. Caring for the packages or other technical infrastructure
*inside* Debian.
2. Making this work public (on the web pages)
This work makes a project and nothing else.
> I don't think following the constitution is important (mostly,
A constitution is a written paper and a project is work.
IMHO this work should just not conflict to the Debian
constitution but we do not need any extra texts???
> On the number of DDs, I think it doesn't matter, but more DDs
> makes it easier to handle requirements 1 and 3 above.
It's better to have more than less. Currently my main Debian-Med
work is sponsoring because there are not so many DDs involved
(or only partly involved).
Kind regards
Andreas.