yaboot installation media

[Ben Westover]

Hello,

I haven't been able to get any GRUB installation media to work on my
PowerMac G4. I've tried Debian, Gentoo, and Arch Linux, and every time
it doesn't recognize GRUB at all. Even attempting to boot manually from
Open Firmware just hangs.
In all situations where I've tried, this issue has been solved with
yaboot. I tried to create some yaboot install media, but I've seen that
it would require patching debian-installer and I'm not sure where to
start with that. If anyone could help in this process of creating
install media that uses yaboot instead of GRUB, it would help me out
tremendously.

Thanks,
--
Ben Westover

[Ben Westover]

Hello,

> try these
> https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/inst/yaboot-howto/
> http://seb.france.free.fr/linux/ibookG4/iBookG4-howto-2.html

My issue lies with actually booting the install media. These are of no
help to me; I already know how yaboot works.

> it would not surprise me if the default for grub is now EFI and of course there is a snowball in hell's chance EFI was around for G4s. the BIOS was based on BSD.

We're using grub-ieee1275, IEEE-1275 being the specification for Open
Firmware. There is no issue getting GRUB to run on my G3, and most
others are having success on their machines, but my G4 just refuses to
recognize GRUB in any way, only yaboot.

Thanks for your quick response,
--
Ben Westover

[lkcl]

try these
https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/inst/yaboot-howto/
http://seb.france.free.fr/linux/ibookG4/iBookG4-howto-2.html

On March 25, 2022 12:00:36 AM UTC, Ben Westover <kwesto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I haven't been able to get any GRUB installation media to work on my
>PowerMac G4. I've tried Debian, Gentoo, and Arch Linux, and every time
>it doesn't recognize GRUB at all.

it would not surprise me if the default for grub is now EFI and of course there is a snowball in hell's chance EFI was around for G4s. the BIOS was based on BSD.

l.

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 8:28 PM Ben Westover

> We're using grub-ieee1275, IEEE-1275 being the specification for Open
> Firmware. There is no issue getting GRUB to run on my G3, and most
> others are having success on their machines, but my G4 just refuses to
> recognize GRUB in any way, only yaboot.

It's kind of odd that things are working for you on G3's, and others
have things working on G5's.

Maybe you should try to reset the nvram? From the OF prompt, I believe
the commands are reset-nvram and reset-all.

Jeff

[Ben Westover]

Hello Jeffrey,

> Maybe you should try to reset the nvram? From the OF prompt, I believe
> the commands are reset-nvram and reset-all.

Just tried that, unfortunately no effect.

Thanks,
--
Ben Westover

[Ken Cunningham]

A previous blessed ISO (Apr 17 2021) booted my IMac G4 without any troubles.

Then I just let all the defaults have their way with the machine, and wound up with a beautiful GRUB-booting system running debian 11 that has been running ever since.

So there is no specific “G4” problem with GRUB….

Ken

> On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:49 PM, Ben Westover <kwesto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In case it's useful, here's the exact system I have: https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_350.html
>
> It's running Open Firmware 3.1.1 (1.2f2 BootROM). This is what it came with, and I was unable to find any upgrades online for this particular model.
>
> --
> Ben Westover

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hello Ben!

On 3/25/22 01:00, Ben Westover wrote:
> I haven't been able to get any GRUB installation media to work on my PowerMac G4.
> I've tried Debian, Gentoo, and Arch Linux, and every time it doesn't recognize
> GRUB at all. Even attempting to boot manually from Open Firmware just hangs.
> In all situations where I've tried, this issue has been solved with yaboot.

GRUB is known to work very well on PowerMac G4 and in my experience, it is extremely
unlikely that you happen to one that single G4 Mac that does not work with GRUB.

What is more likely is that you have bad memory modules in your machines and Yaboot
just happens to use different memory regions which is why it's not affected by the
problem.

I would suggest running a memory tester to check your RAM's health or replace all
modules with known good ones. Also, make sure that the machine has reasonable
amounts of memory.

> I tried to create some yaboot install media, but I've seen that it would require
> patching debian-installer and I'm not sure where to start with that. If anyone
> could help in this process of creating install media that uses yaboot instead of
> GRUB, it would help me out tremendously.

You can either use the last stable installation images for PowerPC:

> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.11.0/powerpc/iso-cd/

and then upgrade from Wheezy to unstable but that's not going to be easy.

Or, you can use one of the older ISO images for PowerPC which were still
based on Yaboot:

> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/9.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/10.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/ (anything before May 2019 should be Yaboot)

If you use these older images, you will run into problems with the signing
key at the installation step "Select and install software", so just skip this
and install the system offline.

Once the system has booted, you should download the latest Debian Ports
keyring package and install it with dpkg:

# wget http://ftp.ports.debian.org/debian-ports/pool/main/d/debian-ports-archive-keyring/debian-ports-archive-keyring_2022.02.15_all.deb
# dpkg -i debian-ports-archive-keyring_2022.02.15_all.deb

then run:

# apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && apt-get dist-upgrade

Reverting the installer system back to Yaboot is not an option for us since
that would bring much more problems than it would solve. In particular, Yaboot
is no longer maintained upstream, does not work with modern filesystems and
does not allow debian-cd and debian-installer code to be shared with other
architectures as can be done with GRUB.

But first, you should really check your memory modules and upgrade your memory
if necessary.

Adrian

--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glau...@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glau...@physik.fu-berlin.de
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

[Ben Westover]

Hello Adrian,

> What is more likely is that you have bad memory modules in your machines and Yaboot
> just happens to use different memory regions which is why it's not affected by the
> problem.

Hmmm… this computer came from my High School's IT department, so its RAM
was upgraded by High Schoolers and may very well be bad. I just never
thought it was because I never ran into issues on OS X or the 2019
snapshot of Debian I got installed with yaboot.

> I would suggest running a memory tester to check your RAM's health or replace all
> modules with known good ones. Also, make sure that the machine has reasonable
> amounts of memory.

I believe I have 384 MB. What program should I use for this?

> You can either use the last stable installation images for PowerPC:
>
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.11.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>
> and then upgrade from Wheezy to unstable but that's not going to be easy.

Why Wheezy when Jessie is available? Is that image not stable?

> Or, you can use one of the older ISO images for PowerPC which were still
> based on Yaboot:
>
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/9.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/10.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/ (anything before May 2019 should be Yaboot)

Yeah, I've already managed to get the April 20 2019 image running.
Upgrading to the latest sid is a nightmare though; I'll have to go in
small steps utilizing snapshot.debian.org if this is the case.

> Reverting the installer system back to Yaboot is not an option for us since
> that would bring much more problems than it would solve. In particular, Yaboot
> is no longer maintained upstream, does not work with modern filesystems and
> does not allow debian-cd and debian-installer code to be shared with other
> architectures as can be done with GRUB.

Yeah, I've already been made well aware of this. I'm not asking for
debian-installer to switch back to yaboot, many people are having
success with GRUB; I was just asking for assistance in creating my own
special 2022 yaboot image.

Thanks for all this useful info,
--
Ben Westover

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hello!

On 3/25/22 12:48, Ben Westover wrote:
>> What is more likely is that you have bad memory modules in your machines and Yaboot
>> just happens to use different memory regions which is why it's not affected by the
>> problem.
>
> Hmmm… this computer came from my High School's IT department, so its RAM was upgraded
> by High Schoolers and may very well be bad. I just never thought it was because I never
> ran into issues on OS X or the 2019 snapshot of Debian I got installed with yaboot.

Bad memory modules can actually result in such weird behavior. We've seen similar reports
before.

>
>> I would suggest running a memory tester to check your RAM's health or replace all
>> modules with known good ones. Also, make sure that the machine has reasonable
>> amounts of memory.
>
> I believe I have 384 MB. What program should I use for this?
>
>> You can either use the last stable installation images for PowerPC:
>>
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.11.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>>
>> and then upgrade from Wheezy to unstable but that's not going to be easy.
>
> Why Wheezy when Jessie is available? Is that image not stable?

You're right, of course. I was checking in the wrong folder which is why I
missed that Jessie was also still released for PowerPC.

To my excuse, Jessie was release seven years ago ;-).

>> Or, you can use one of the older ISO images for PowerPC which were still
>> based on Yaboot:
>>
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/9.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/10.0/powerpc/iso-cd/
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/ (anything before May 2019 should be Yaboot)
>
> Yeah, I've already managed to get the April 20 2019 image running. Upgrading
> to the latest sid is a nightmare though; I'll have to go in small steps utilizing
> snapshot.debian.org if this is the case.

You can also create a fresh chroot from unstable using debootstrap and that pivot
the root file systems.

>
>> Reverting the installer system back to Yaboot is not an option for us since
>> that would bring much more problems than it would solve. In particular, Yaboot
>> is no longer maintained upstream, does not work with modern filesystems and
>> does not allow debian-cd and debian-installer code to be shared with other
>> architectures as can be done with GRUB.
>
> Yeah, I've already been made well aware of this. I'm not asking for debian-installer
> to switch back to yaboot, many people are having success with GRUB; I was just asking
> for assistance in creating my own special 2022 yaboot image.

Creating custom images takes quite some work. An outdated guide can be found here:

> https://wiki.debian.org/PortsDocs/CreateDebianInstallerImages?highlight=%28%5CbCategoryPorts%5Cb%29

[Ben Westover]

Hello,

> Bad memory modules can actually result in such weird behavior. We've seen similar reports
> before.

When I have time, I'll run a memory test. Can this be done from OF? What
commands should I use?

> You can also create a fresh chroot from unstable using debootstrap and that pivot
> the root file systems.

Good idea. I didn't think about debootstrap.

> Creating custom images takes quite some work. An outdated guide can be found here:
>
>> https://wiki.debian.org/PortsDocs/CreateDebianInstallerImages?highlight=%28%5CbCategoryPorts%5Cb%29

I actually got pretty far in my original attempt; I got stuck in the
part where I had to patch d-i for yaboot. These new ideas of a memory
fix and using debootstrap for a new chroot give me hope.

Thanks again,
--
Ben Westover

[Ben Westover]

Hello,

A thank you goes out to all the people who have attempted to help me.
In all the excitement of this endeavor, my G4's motherboard has died.

Based on previous discussion, I believe the culprit in its failure to
load GRUB was the system's memory. Upon closer inspection of the machine
during its autopsy, I found that the memory was mixed and matched with
all four sticks having different capacities, speeds, and brands.

Seemingly the only PowerMac in the world that fails to boot GRUB has
officially kicked the bucket.

Thanks for all the help,
--
Ben Westover

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hello Ben!

On 3/25/22 21:48, Ben Westover wrote:
> A thank you goes out to all the people who have attempted to help me.
> In all the excitement of this endeavor, my G4's motherboard has died.

I'm not surprised.

> Based on previous discussion, I believe the culprit in its failure to
> load GRUB was the system's memory. Upon closer inspection of the machine
> during its autopsy, I found that the memory was mixed and matched with all
> four sticks having different capacities, speeds, and brands.

That's almost never a good idea.

> Seemingly the only PowerMac in the world that fails to boot GRUB has
> officially kicked the bucket.

I think you should be able to resurrect the machine. Either the capacitors
in the power supply hav gone bad or the ones on the mainboard. In both cases,
it should be possible to replace them [1].

Adrian

> [1] https://lowendmac.com/mail/07/0626.html

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 4:15 PM Sam Imberman <simb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I'm actually having more or less the same problem with my Powerbook G4 Aluminum.
> I am using the image from https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/2022-03-18/non-free/ , which I burnt on a USB stick with "dd if=./debian-11.0.0-powerpc-NETINST-1.iso of=/dev/sdg bs=1M"
> When I boot the machine while holding "option", the USB stick is not found.

I don't know about the G4's, but I know about the G5's. You cannot
boot a G5 from USB. You have to burn a CD and boot from the CD.

Jeff

[Sam Imberman]

Hi,

I'm actually having more or less the same problem with my Powerbook G4 Aluminum.

I am using the image from https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/2022-03-18/non-free/ , which I burnt on a USB stick with "dd if=./debian-11.0.0-powerpc-NETINST-1.iso of=/dev/sdg bs=1M"

When I boot the machine while holding "option", the USB stick is not found.

If I try to boot from Open Firmware, I try "boot usb1/disk@1:,\\grub.img" and the error after quite a long pause is "can't OPEN: usb1/disk@1:,\\grub.img Can't open device or file"

Of course I can't rule out the possibility that I'm using Open Firmware wrong, after some searches of this list and on the Internet I didn't specifically find a description of the boot line and I'm really not an OF wizard.

But there appears to be a drive at /usb@1b/disk@1 and usb1 seems to be aliased to that usb@1b so I think I did it right.

Any ideas that I could try next?

Thanks!

Sam

--

Sam

[Gabriel Paubert]

That's going to be a problem, on both my Pismo and my 17" PB G4 (latest
version), the CD drive is dead.

What's the alternative? I have a firewire 1.8" disk (~5GB capacity)
somewhere, I just need some time to locate it.

Cheers,
Gabriel

>
> Jeff
>

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hello Sam!

On 3/27/22 22:14, Sam Imberman wrote:
> I am using the image from
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/2022-03-18/non-free/ ,
> which I burnt on a USB stick with "dd
> if=./debian-11.0.0-powerpc-NETINST-1.iso of=/dev/sdg bs=1M"

Please don't use these images, these are broken. Use the latest ones:

> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/2022-03-24/

As for booting from a USB pen drive, I haven't collected enough information
for that yet, so I cannot give you a definitive guide. There have been reports
by some users about successful reports from USB media though.

Adrian

[Ben Westover]

Hello Sam,

> If I try to boot from Open Firmware, I try "boot
> usb1/disk@1:,\\grub.img" and the error after quite a long pause is
> "can't OPEN: usb1/disk@1:,\\grub.img Can't open device or file"
> Of course I can't rule out the possibility that I'm using Open Firmware
> wrong, after some searches of this list and on the Internet I didn't
> specifically find a description of the boot line and I'm really not an
> OF wizard.

GRUB is located at /boot/grub/powerpc.elf most of the time. The command
you're looking for is `boot usb1/disk@1:,\boot\grub\powerpc.elf`.
You can also see what's on it with the command `dir usb1/disk@1:,\`,
adding directories at the end to go deeper.

My G4 was unable to even recognize USBs in Open Firmware, but the fact
that yours showed up is a good sign. That means it should be able to
boot from the drive provided it can read the filesystem.

I use variations of these commands on my G3 all the time with success,
and some others have managed to get them to work on their G4s. The
NetBSD installation guide for macppc[1] was a wonderful resource about
all these Open Firmware commands (I believe it was even cited in the
Debian Wiki as being a massive help).

[1] https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.2/macppc/INSTALL.html

Regards,
--
Ben Westover

[Sam Imberman]

Hi,

Thanks for the help everyone.

I'm pretty confused now -- I burnt the March 24 image (https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/2022-03-24/debian-11.0.0-powerpc-NETINST-1.iso) as Adrian suggested.

Following Ben's instructions (thanks!!!) I can't seem to mount the USB stick, and also I burnt the ISO to a CD-RW (wodim -eject -v dev=/dev/sr0 ./debian-11.0.0-powerpc-NETINST-1.iso) and that isn't working either.

The disc isn't found in the startup menu, and if I execute `boot cd:,\boot\grub\powerpc.elf` in OF I have the error: "DISK-LABEL: read of block0 failed ATAPI-DISK: open of DISK-LABEL failed".

I am led to believe one of two things is possible: 1) OF somehow can't read into the filesystem? 2) I am doing something trivial wrong?

The disc is read successfully on the Linux machine I burnt it on, but I suppose that isn't saying much.

Thanks

Sam

--

Sam

[Johannes Brakensiek]

Am Sonntag, dem 27.03.2022 um 16:17 -0400 schrieb Jeffrey Walton:
> I don't know about the G4's, but I know about the G5's. You cannot
> boot a G5 from USB. You have to burn a CD and boot from the CD.

Booting a G5 PowerMac 11,2 from USB works well, I don't know about the
older ones.

See this mail on how to:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2021/01/msg00035.html

The hacks from the powerprogress forum should not be necessary anymore.

Johannes

[Sam Imberman]

Hi,

I can confirm that I was able to boot from the image from a USB key using the line from Ben Westover in the previous message.

A CD-RW and two USB keys failed to work, it worked on the third USB key -- who knows why.

I have some slowness and error messages on boot ("ata1: SRST failed (errno=-16)") which I assume are because my IDE device is a CompactFlash card, but it all works fine after a long pause. I will dig into that issue at another time.

Also, I chose all the defaults and the installation booted fine.

This is a PowerBook G4 Aluminum 12" with a G4, model "PowerBook6,4".

Thanks everyone!

Sam

--

Sam

[Ben Westover]

Hello,

I've been able to get the G4 working again. The issue recognizing GRUB
does not seem to be memory-related, as I tried each stick one at a time
and was never able to boot to GRUB. This shows that unless they're all
somehow faulty in the same exact way that manages to not affect normal
operation, memory is not the issue.

In other news, my G3 memory upgrade arrived yesterday, and the system
was able to boot perfectly into the latest Debian and worked well.
I will be using this machine to attempt to port Arch Linux to PowerPC.

Does anybody have any more ideas to diagnose my G4's complete inability
to recognize or boot GRUB?

Thanks,
--
Ben Westover