Debian on IBM RS/6000 7248-43p

[Alexander Huemer]

Hi

I am the proud owner of this ancient machine on which I am attempting to
install Debian. This machine is equipped with a Gotek floppy emulator
and a ZuluSCSI emulator (for HDD and CD-ROM) for convenience reasons.
For reference, this is a 32bit PowerPC machine following the PReP[1]
specification.

[2] says:
> Debian on 32-bit PowerPC (powerpc)

> It first became an official "release architecture" with Debian
> GNU/Linux 2.2 ("potato") and had retained that status until the
> publication of Debian 9 ("stretch"). The last supported release for
> 32-bit PowerPC is Debian 8 ("jessie"). See the release note and
> installation manual for further information.

Therefore I am focusing on Jessie.
[3] is rather sparse on details regarding installation media options.

> In some cases, you'll have to do your first boot from floppy disks.
> Generally, all you will need is a high-density (1440 kilobytes) 3.5
> inch floppy drive.

Does this apply to my machine? I don't know. Where would I find the
respective floppy image? [4] doesn't have a 'floppy' folder or something
similar.

> CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.

Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
doesn't boot.

> Booting the installation system directly from a hard disk is another
> option for many architectures. This will require some other operating
> system to load the installer onto the hard disk. This method is only
> recommended for special cases when no other installation method is
> available.

I've tried the image contained in the .gz at [7], though that doesn't
boot either. There are several other files at the parent directory of
[7]. I am not sure what to do with them though.

Then there is [8]. Way older Debian release, but worth a try. The link
to floppy images doesn't work anymore, but IA has a copy, see [9].
The image debian-7248-boot.img isn't recognized by the FlashFloppy
firmware as being a valid floppy image, hence it doesn't boot. It's
unclear to me what the problem with the image is, `file` recognizes it
just fine.

> $ file debian-7248-boot.img
> debian-7248-boot.img: DOS/MBR boot sector; partition 1 : ID=0x41,
> active, start-CHS (0x0,0,2), end-CHS (0x4f,1,18), startsector 0, 2879
> sectors

Now I don't know what else to try anymore. If anybody is reading this
who has worked on a 43p before, I'd appreciate any pointers.

-Alex

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_Reference_Platform
[2] https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
[3] https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/powerpc/ch02s04.html.en
[4] https://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/
[5] https://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/cdrom/
[6] https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/8.11.0/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-8.11.0-powerpc-netinst.iso
[7] https://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/hd-media/boot.img.gz
[8] https://tldp.org/HOWTO/IBM7248-HOWTO/x390.htm
[9] https://web.archive.org/web/20061111195147/http://users.linpro.no/ingvar/43p/images/Debian/

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hi Alexander!

On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 12:01 +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> > CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.
>
> Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
> PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
> doesn't boot.

Current images can found here:

> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/

Adrian

--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer
`. `' Physicist
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

[Alexander Huemer]

Hi!

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 12:12:40PM +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Hi Alexander!
>
> On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 12:01 +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> > > CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.
> >
> > Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
> > PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
> > doesn't boot.
>
> Current images can found here:
>
> > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/

Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately doesn't boot either.
Again, I am not sure if this is supposed to work or if I need a special
boot floppy or something like that.

-Alex

[Alexander Huemer]

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 01:26:32PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:

> On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 01:03:21PM +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 12:12:40PM +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > > Hi Alexander!
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 12:01 +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> > > > > CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.
> > > >
> > > > Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
> > > > PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
> > > > doesn't boot.
> > >
> > > Current images can found here:
> > >

> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WusbLcdmFSNxyemb5ZCzGZepjyHg_TePq9j0I3dx-OK7MeoAJf9g9blL5z9OH70U96Tn1LZK-4j8PLL_zOY62VdA4A$

> >
> > Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately doesn't boot either.
> > Again, I am not sure if this is supposed to work or if I need a special
> > boot floppy or something like that.
>

> I suspect it is hopeless, as far as I remember PReP support disappeared
> when the ppc and ppc64 kernel trees were merged into the single powerpc
> architecture.

I would be perfectly fine with installing an ancient Debian release.
Apparently that has worked some people in the past. So far, nothing
booted, but that is most likely due to operator error. I just can't
figure out what that error is. The PReP firmware isn't very chatty
regarding what is happening.

-Alex

[Gabriel Paubert]

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 01:03:21PM +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 12:12:40PM +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > Hi Alexander!
> >
> > On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 12:01 +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> > > > CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.
> > >
> > > Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
> > > PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
> > > doesn't boot.
> >
> > Current images can found here:
> >

> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/snapshots/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WusbLcdmFSNxyemb5ZCzGZepjyHg_TePq9j0I3dx-OK7MeoAJf9g9blL5z9OH70U96Tn1LZK-4j8PLL_zOY62VdA4A$

>
> Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately doesn't boot either.
> Again, I am not sure if this is supposed to work or if I need a special
> boot floppy or something like that.

I suspect it is hopeless, as far as I remember PReP support disappeared
when the ppc and ppc64 kernel trees were merged into the single powerpc
architecture.

Gabriel

>
> -Alex
>

[Mark Cave-Ayland]

Not sure if it will necessarily work for you, however the image we use for boot
testing QEMU's 40p machine with OpenBIOS can be found over at
http://www.juneau-lug.org/sandalfoot.php. At the very least you should find some of
the information over on that page useful.


ATB,

Mark.

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 12:01:45PM +0200, Alexander Huemer wrote:
> I am the proud owner of this ancient machine on which I am attempting to
> install Debian. This machine is equipped with a Gotek floppy emulator
> and a ZuluSCSI emulator (for HDD and CD-ROM) for convenience reasons.
> For reference, this is a 32bit PowerPC machine following the PReP[1]
> specification.
>
> [2] says:
> > Debian on 32-bit PowerPC (powerpc)
>
> > It first became an official "release architecture" with Debian
> > GNU/Linux 2.2 ("potato") and had retained that status until the
> > publication of Debian 9 ("stretch"). The last supported release for
> > 32-bit PowerPC is Debian 8 ("jessie"). See the release note and
> > installation manual for further information.
>
> Therefore I am focusing on Jessie.
> [3] is rather sparse on details regarding installation media options.

Well I have seen lots of people say woody worked on that machine.
Not sure how late support for that hardware stuck around. After all
192MB ram and 133MHz 604 is not a lot of resources. I am not sure how
late Debian would have supported installing on a machine with that little
ram, assuming you have it maxed out, which it might not be.

> Does this apply to my machine? I don't know. Where would I find the
> respective floppy image? [4] doesn't have a 'floppy' folder or something
> similar.

It should not apply to this machine as far as I can tell. Yeah no floppy
based installer for debian for a long time.

> > CD-ROM based installation is supported for most architectures.
>
> Again, I don't know if CD-ROM based installation is expected work on
> PReP. [5] doesn't contain any ISO images. I've tried [6] though that
> doesn't boot.

>From what I can find, that machine does boot from CD.

> I've tried the image contained in the .gz at [7], though that doesn't
> boot either. There are several other files at the parent directory of
> [7]. I am not sure what to do with them though.
>
> Then there is [8]. Way older Debian release, but worth a try. The link
> to floppy images doesn't work anymore, but IA has a copy, see [9].
> The image debian-7248-boot.img isn't recognized by the FlashFloppy
> firmware as being a valid floppy image, hence it doesn't boot. It's
> unclear to me what the problem with the image is, `file` recognizes it
> just fine.
>
> > $ file debian-7248-boot.img
> > debian-7248-boot.img: DOS/MBR boot sector; partition 1 : ID=0x41,
> > active, start-CHS (0x0,0,2), end-CHS (0x4f,1,18), startsector 0, 2879
> > sectors
>
> Now I don't know what else to try anymore. If anybody is reading this
> who has worked on a 43p before, I'd appreciate any pointers.

Well certainly a partition with type 0x41 is in fact what an IBM PReP
machine boots from. So that does look like a bootable harddisk image.

I have not worked with such a machine, the earliest I have used was
a power6 machine, although they are still PReP and boot from the same
partition type. Way more RAM and CPU though.

Maybe you should try woody first to see if you can get it to boot at all,
just to run something other people have said worked on it. It ought to
boot from the CD, but woody also has floppy imags if you have to resort
to that. At least you can find out if the machine boots at all.

I suspect you could netboot it using tftp/bootp as well but that shouldn't
be necesary.

--
Len Sorensen

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 08:21 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Well I have seen lots of people say woody worked on that machine.
> Not sure how late support for that hardware stuck around. After all
> 192MB ram and 133MHz 604 is not a lot of resources. I am not sure how
> late Debian would have supported installing on a machine with that little
> ram, assuming you have it maxed out, which it might not be.

192 MB is more than enough provided you're not trying to run a fully fledged
desktop such as KDE or GNOME. Lean window managers like FVWM should still
work.

My Amiga 4000 has 128 MB RAM and no memory issues being a headless system.

[Gabriel Paubert]

That might be possible, but you need a PReP boot partition on your
disk (type 0x41), to which you directly copy the kernel if memory
serves.

Maybe the formware also allows net booting (bootp/tftp). This is how the
Motorola MVME machines for scientific instrumentes boot here at work.

Gabriel

>
> -Alex
>

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 02:05:01PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
> That might be possible, but you need a PReP boot partition on your
> disk (type 0x41), to which you directly copy the kernel if memory
> serves.

Later releases put yaboot or grub2 on that partition so you actually
got a proper boot menu.

But yes, it simply loads and executes whatever binary is written raw to
that partition. Could be a kernel, could be a boot loader.

--
Len Sorensen

[Ben Westover]

On 5/11/23 7:26 AM, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
> I suspect it is hopeless, as far as I remember PReP support disappeared
> when the ppc and ppc64 kernel trees were merged into the single powerpc
> architecture.

Arch Linux's unofficial ppc port lists instructions for installing on
PReP machines [1], so unless they're inaccurate I would assume Linux
still supports PREp.

--
Ben Westover

[1] https://github.com/kth5/archpower/wiki/Installation-%7C-KVM-or-PReP

[Didier Kryn]

Le 12/05/2023 à 00:50, Ben Westover a écrit :
> Arch Linux's unofficial ppc port lists instructions for installing on
> PReP machines [1], so unless they're inaccurate I would assume Linux
> still supports PREp.

    A PREp partition does not contain any filesystem; it is just
something on which you put an executable using (e.g.) 'dd -of=/dev/sda1
if=...' . An executable does not need to know how it was loaded.

    The firmware assumes that a PREp partition contains an executable
image, it loads it and executes it. Traditionnally, this was a Linux
image, bundled with an initramfs and some code to uncompress them, load
them and jump to the kernel with kernel arguments given at build-time.
This, of course, can be replaced by the executable image of a known
bootloader. The bootloader does not need to know about PREp because it
loads kernel and initramfs from another partition.

--     Didier

[T]

On Thu, 11 May 2023 14:41:19 +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> On Thu, 2023-05-11 at 08:21 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> Well I have seen lots of people say woody worked on that machine.
>> Not sure how late support for that hardware stuck around. After all
>> 192MB ram and 133MHz 604 is not a lot of resources. I am not sure how
>> late Debian would have supported installing on a machine with that
>> little ram, assuming you have it maxed out, which it might not be.
>
> 192 MB is more than enough provided you're not trying to run a fully
> fledged desktop such as KDE or GNOME. Lean window managers like FVWM
> should still work.
>
> My Amiga 4000 has 128 MB RAM and no memory issues being a headless
> system.
>
> Adrian

This is true with my experience. I've been able to run FVWM on a 7248
with 192MiB of RAM, although with a different OS.
-Tim

[T]

Have you gone into the SMS yet to check firmware configuration
(equivalent to BIOS menu)? When the 7248 is booting, when the keyboard
icon displays, hit either F1 for GUI menu or F4 for TUI menu. You will
need a copy of the SMS disk image on your floppy emulator. Some of the
other F# keys do things, IIRC one of the higher F# keys forces the TFTP
netbooting function, there's also probably one that does the same for CD-
ROM.

Key SMS Disk Required Function
F1 Yes Graphical System Maintenance
F2 No Select Boot Device
F4 Yes Text-Mode System Maintenance
F5 No Force Floppy Boot

An FYI, this machine uses the “El Torito” Bootable CD-ROM Format
Specification, so you need an ISO of that type, or it won't boot.

This link has an SMS image file:
http://www.ext.zx.net.nz/computers/ibm/rs6000_132/