Fwd: Rejecting NM applicant Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Chris Tillman
----- Forwarded message from Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <fabb...@fabbione.net> -----
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:18:13 +0200 (CEST)
From: Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <fabb...@fabbione.net>
To: debian-...@lists.debian.org
Subject: Rejecting NM applicant Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com>
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I am rejecting the Debian New Maintainer Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> on
his own request. Norman, unfortunatly, does not have enough time to spend
for the NM process, but he can of course reapply any time in the future.
Regards
Fabio
- --
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues
http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp00004.html
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Chris Tillman (a people instance)
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Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to maintain
all the DocBook packages), then something about the application process needs to
be fixed.
He's clearly qualified, and we should be honored that an individual of his
stature would like to become a DD. FWIW, we could also use his help. Shame on us.
Mark
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <fabb...@fabbione.net>
> -----
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:18:13 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <fabb...@fabbione.net>
> To: debian-...@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Rejecting NM applicant Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> I am rejecting the Debian New Maintainer Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> on
> his own request. Norman, unfortunatly, does not have enough time to spend
> for the NM process, but he can of course reapply any time in the future.
>
> Regards
> Fabio
>
> - --
> Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
> "We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues
>
> http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp00004.html
Fabio Massimo Di Nitto
> > Dang. Maybe we should streamline our process.
>
> Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to maintain
> all the DocBook packages), then something about the application process needs to
> be fixed.
>
> He's clearly qualified, and we should be honored that an individual of his
> stature would like to become a DD. FWIW, we could also use his help. Shame on us.
>
> Mark
>
The fact that Norman does not have time to go trough the NM process means
absolutely nothing. He can still contribute (also via a sponsor) and
reapply at a later stage. None of his skills are in doubt and I want to
underline it.
Fabio
Steve Langasek
> > Dang. Maybe we should streamline our process.
> Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to
> maintain all the DocBook packages), then something about the
> application process needs to be fixed.
> He's clearly qualified, and we should be honored that an individual of his
> stature would like to become a DD. FWIW, we could also use his help.
> Shame on us.
While Mr. Walsh's credentials as a developer speak for themselves, I
think you're a bit hasty in jumping to the conclusion that the NM
process is broken. The NM process is designed to test a very *specific*
set of technical abilities, related to package management; it's not
obvious to me that Norm's experience as a software developer and DTD
author immediately qualify him in the area of Debian packaging. Nor is
it obvious to me that a lead upstream developer is the best candidate
for maintaining the Debian packages -- sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Certainly, I would think that if he has the time to dedicate to Debian
packaging, he would find sponsors (or current maintainers of the
packages) willing to work with him, with or without the NM process?
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> > I am rejecting the Debian New Maintainer Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> on
> > his own request. Norman, unfortunatly, does not have enough time to spend
> > for the NM process, but he can of course reapply any time in the future.
> >
> > Regards
> > Fabio
> >
> > - --
> > Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
> > "We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues
> >
> > http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp00004.html
>
>
>
>
> --
> Please respect the privacy of this mailing list.
>
> Archive: file://master.debian.org/~debian/archive/debian-private/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, use the web form at <http://db.debian.org/>.
Josip Rodin
>
> Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to
> maintain all the DocBook packages), then something about the application
> process needs to be fixed.
>
> He's clearly qualified, and we should be honored that an individual of his
> stature would like to become a DD. FWIW, we could also use his help. Shame
> on us.
So let me get this straight, he doesn't have enough time for the NM process,
but does have enough time to properly maintain those packages? What proof
can we possibly have to support such a claim?!
Admittedly, I haven't gone through the present NM process. Someone could
have added jumping through hoops while I wasn't looking, but I find that
somewhat hard to believe.
And, furthermore, why is this mail being crossposted both to a public and a
private list? How useless is that?
--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Craig Small
>
> Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to maintain
> all the DocBook packages), then something about the application process needs to
> be fixed.
>
> He's clearly qualified, and we should be honored that an individual of his
> stature would like to become a DD. FWIW, we could also use his help. Shame on us.
The fact that he knows a lot about DocBook (I understand who he is)
doesn't mean he knows anything at all about Debian packages or
processes.
But if he cannot be bothered to pass the NM process then the NM process
is working. The questions asked are not exactly rocket science stuff
and don't take that long to answer. While I don't know him that well,
I'm pretty sure he knows English pretty well so the difficulty in
understanding the language should not be a barrier.
It's probably a good thing. If he doesn't have the time to answer some
reasonably simple questions about things he already should know (if he's
clearly qualified for packaging) then its likely he might not have time
to do packaging well (because, for example his upstream work consumes
all his time).
The again, he may of chosen not to complete the NM process for totally
different reasons. Anyone is free do to that.
To say there is a problem with the NM process just because someone is
a prolific Free Sfotware developer chooses not to follow it is not a good
reason at all. Being a maintainer in Debian is more than coding
software. Your comments show your ignorance of what the process is
trying to do.
I don't see anywhere in our documents where it says if you are a
well-known Free Software developer you automatically get Debian
maintainership.
This got on debian-private somehow as well as other mail lists. My stuff
doesn't have to be private.
- Craig
--
Craig Small VK2XLZ GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
Eye-Net Consulting http://www.enc.com.au/ <csm...@enc.com.au>
MIEEE <csm...@ieee.org> Debian developer <csm...@debian.org>
David N. Welton
> To say there is a problem with the NM process just because someone
> is a prolific Free Sfotware developer chooses not to follow it is
> not a good reason at all. Being a maintainer in Debian is more than
> coding software. Your comments show your ignorance of what the
> process is trying to do.
As someone said, the process selects for people that are good at
dealing with beaurocracy.
> I don't see anywhere in our documents where it says if you are a
> well-known Free Software developer you automatically get Debian
> maintainership.
I would like to see a meritocracy. You do good things (making .deb's,
helping out), you get added. It would waste people's time less,
because applicants who weren't ready wouldn't get added, and those who
were would be invited.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Fabio Massimo Di Nitto
Hi David,
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, David N. Welton wrote:
> As someone said, the process selects for people that are good at
> dealing with beaurocracy.
I tend to disagree with you here. It is true that somehow the NM process
involves some burocracy but it also forces the applicant to expand her/his
knowledge across several aspect of the project that otherwise would be
underestimated.
> I would like to see a meritocracy. You do good things (making .deb's,
> helping out), you get added. It would waste people's time less,
> because applicants who weren't ready wouldn't get added, and those who
> were would be invited.
Usually without these requirements it is even hard to find a sponsor that
will advocate you for the process.
Fabio
--
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues
http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp00004.html
Josip Rodin
> As someone said, the process selects for people that are good at
> dealing with beaurocracy.
>
> helping out), you get added. It would waste people's time less,
> because applicants who weren't ready wouldn't get added, and those who
> were would be invited.
How do you suppose we organize and maintain this? This sentiment appeals to
me as much as it does to anyone else, but Debian is too large to be able to
work without a carefully organized structure. "You do good things, you get
added" doesn't explain how exactly we deal with people. Debian simply cannot
be based entirely on instincts. In fact, the very next thing that comes to
my mind with such an approach is that people's privileges would be revocable
in the same way, and that's a very slippery slope (Gentoo fork, anyone?).
--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.
David N. Welton
> On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 09:38:52AM +0200, David N. Welton wrote:
> > As someone said, the process selects for people that are good at
> > dealing with beaurocracy.
> > I would like to see a meritocracy. You do good things (making
> > .deb's, helping out), you get added. It would waste people's time
> > less, because applicants who weren't ready wouldn't get added, and
> > those who were would be invited.
> How do you suppose we organize and maintain this? This sentiment
> appeals to me as much as it does to anyone else, but Debian is too
> large to be able to work without a carefully organized
> structure. "You do good things, you get added" doesn't explain how
> exactly we deal with people. Debian simply cannot be based entirely
> on instincts. In fact, the very next thing that comes to my mind
> with such an approach is that people's privileges would be revocable
> in the same way, and that's a very slippery slope (Gentoo fork,
> anyone?).
I didn't say disorganized, I said meritocracy. Of course it would
need some regulation governing it. The central point is that the goal
is no longer "get to be a Debian developer", because that's not what
you apply for. That's what eventually happens when you "do stuff for
Debian". In part, it's a matter of managing expectations and
perceptions.
As to how it would work - why not transform the NM volunteers into a
group that is the contact point for 'external' work - a place to go
when you have created a .deb, or want to help out with existing
efforts. The 'NM process' could then be one of observing the work
done by the external volunteers, and keeping track of them. After a
while (and this could even be a much longer process than the current
NM queue), those whose contributions were of consistent quality and
who demonstrated a continuing interest would be selected to be made
debian developers. In the case of someone like Mr. Walsh, it would
allow us to have seen whether he did what he said he was going to, and
thus become a valuable addition to Debian, or determine that he didn't
have the time indeed, instead of the speculation that "well, he
probably didn't have time anyway if he didn't want to go through the
hazing process".
Anyway, maybe there are elements of a meritocracy that are unworkable,
but do not forget that there are elements of the current situation
that are very much suboptimal themselves.
Anyway, hope it's some food for thought,
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Norman Walsh
Hash: SHA1
Hey, folks, if you're going to talk about me in the third person on a
public list, do me the courtesy of a CC: would you? Especially if
you're going to speculate about why I might or might not have done
something.
/ csm...@enc.com.au (Craig Small) was heard to say:
Be seeing you,
norm
- --
Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> | The perfect man has no method; or
http://nwalsh.com/ | rather the best of methods, which is
| the method of no-method.--Shih-T'ao
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Martin Wheeler
> Hey, folks, if you're going to talk about me in the third person on a
> public list, do me the courtesy of a CC: would you? Especially if
> you're going to speculate about why I might or might not have done
> something.
Sorry, Norm. Assumed you were following.
--
Martin Wheeler - StarTEXT / AVALONIX - Glastonbury - BA6 9PH - England
m...@startext.demon.co.uk http://startext.demon.co.uk/
GPG pub key : 8D6B948B ECC6 D98E 4CC8 60E3 7E32 D594 BB27 3368 8D6B 948B
- Share your knowledge. It's a way of achieving immortality. -
Norman Walsh
Hash: SHA1
Right. No one asked, but this thread ran on a public list so I'm going
to tell you anyway. Here's my summary of experience with the NM
process.
1. I did the normal startup stuff and eventually Fabio was assigned to me.
2. Fabio sent me what I presume is a fairly standard set of questions.
3. I had some weeks earlier read the New Maintainers Guide and the
Developer's Reference and put together a couple of simple .deb
files for some small packages I maintain. So, to answer Fabio's
questions, I spent an afternoon digging around on the web.
4. A couple of my answers were weak. I knew that. Fabio spotted them
and pushed back. Fair enough.
5. I dug around a bit more and provided another set of answers.
6. Fabio pushed back again pointing out that several of my answers
looked like I'd "cut and pasted" them and suggested that I should
recapitulate them in my own words.
Man, I thought, that's setting the bar pretty high.
7. I made another stab and sent answers to the first half or so of the
questions. Fabio said he'd wait until he had all of the answers
again. Fair enough.
8. Time passed. Eventually weeks passed. I started feeling guilty
about clogging up the process and told Fabio it'd be September at
least before I was able to free up enough time to try again.
9. Fabio suggested that he could either put me on hold or reject me.
10. I wrote back and said, why don't you put me on hold then.
11. Fabio wrote back and said sorry, he'd just rejected me.
C'est la vie. Is the process broken? I don't know. It's not my place
to say. I think the bar is set awfully high, but I presume that's
intentional. A couple of people in this thread pointed out that my
other experience may not translate directly into experience with
debian packaging. That's certainly true.
I find it a bit surprising that that single technical skill should be
such an important discriminating factor though. I'd have thought that
a broader range of technical skill and experience was desired.
Will I try again this fall. Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. All
of the important packages I maintain are already packaged up
periodically by others.
If I'd made it through the process, I probably would have felt
motivated to add a "make deb" target to the build process and
published .deb files with each new release. As someone else pointed
out, there's nothing preventing me from doing that now. There's
nothing preventing me from building .rpm's either. Psychology being
what it is, I'm unlikely to feel motivated to do either in the short
term.
Obviously, I won't be participating in the organization in any other
way either. But I hardly think anyone will notice.
Be seeing you,
norm
- --
Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> | The future belongs to those who believe
http://nwalsh.com/ | in the beauty of their dreams.--Eleanor
| Roosevelt
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Matthew Wilcox
> Hey, folks, if you're going to talk about me in the third person on a
> public list, do me the courtesy of a CC: would you? Especially if
> you're going to speculate about why I might or might not have done
> something.
For what it's worth (not much), the person who started this thread did
everybody a disservice by cc'ing a public list (debian-doc) and a private
list (debian-private). Some of the people who replied may not have been
aware their answers were public.
--
"It's not Hollywood. War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or
victory, it is about death. I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies.
Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject?" -- Robert Fisk
Norman Walsh
Hash: SHA1
/ Rafael Laboissiere <raf...@debian.org> was heard to say:
| [ Not very smart cross-posting to debian-private and debian-doc, but I am
| respecting the Cc:. Nothing below is private. ]
[...]
| Just a suggestion to our NM advocates: when you have someone assigned to
| you, try to learn a bit about him/her before judging his/her responses to
| those (fairly procedural) checks. You may be before a celebrity.
For the record, I do not expect any special consideration. It would
probably be a mistake (on several levels) to adjust the process on the
basis of the applicant.
| I hope it is not too late to reconsider Norman's application, both on his
| and our side.
It's clearly too late from a procedural point of view. But there's
nothing that can't be restarted.
Be seeing you,
norm
- --
Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> | As we grow older we grow both more
http://nwalsh.com/ | foolish and wiser at the same time.--La
| Rochefoucauld
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Rafael Laboissiere
respecting the Cc:. Nothing below is private. ]
* Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> [2003-07-07 09:54]:
> Right. No one asked, but this thread ran on a public list so I'm going
> to tell you anyway. Here's my summary of experience with the NM
> process.
>
> [sorrow summary snipped]
>
> Obviously, I won't be participating in the organization in any other
> way either. But I hardly think anyone will notice.
Something similar (although in the pre-NM era) happened to a friend of mine,
Raphael Manfredi, several years ago. He is a Perl guru, and he tried once
to become a Debian developer, got rejected, and became completely frustated
with the experience.
As a humble mortal (albeit a Debian developer), I am ashamed that our
organization manages to reject semi-gods like Walsh and Manfredi. Who is
next? Larry Wall? Guido van Rossum? Richard Stallman?
Just a suggestion to our NM advocates: when you have someone assigned to
you, try to learn a bit about him/her before judging his/her responses to
those (fairly procedural) checks. You may be before a celebrity.
I hope it is not too late to reconsider Norman's application, both on his
and our side.
--
Rafael Laboissiere
Christian Hammers
> I am ashamed that our organization manages to reject semi-gods like
> Walsh and Manfredi. Who is next? Larry Wall? Guido van Rossum?
> Richard Stallman?
Community beware! After the "cabal" Debian now gets the "semi-gods"!
Once reached, you can delay every job as long as you want and do it
as poor as you want...hurray!
-christian-
P.S.: Maybe we should introduce the "honorary maintainer" :-)))
Robert Millan
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 09:15:08AM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
> > Hey, folks, if you're going to talk about me in the third person on a
> > public list, do me the courtesy of a CC: would you? Especially if
> > you're going to speculate about why I might or might not have done
> > something.
>
> For what it's worth (not much), the person who started this thread did
> everybody a disservice by cc'ing a public list (debian-doc) and a private
> list (debian-private). Some of the people who replied may not have been
> aware their answers were public.
It makes no sense to keep the CC to -private if the discussion is not
private. Could you people either drop the CC or replace it with -devel?
--
Robert Millan
Jeff Bailey
> Just a suggestion to our NM advocates: when you have someone assigned
> to you, try to learn a bit about him/her before judging his/her
> responses to those (fairly procedural) checks. You may be before a
> celebrity.
Bzzzt. Why should our process be easier for celebrities? The WHOLE
process sucks, this isn't news. Just most of us are too apathetic
(including me!) to do anything about it.
Tks,
Jeff Bailey
--
Breathe into my hands, I'll cup them like a glass to drink from...
- Tattle Tale
Bartosz Feński aka fEnIo
> > Just a suggestion to our NM advocates: when you have someone assigned
> > to you, try to learn a bit about him/her before judging his/her
> > responses to those (fairly procedural) checks. You may be before a
> > celebrity.
> Bzzzt. Why should our process be easier for celebrities? The WHOLE
> process sucks, this isn't news. Just most of us are too apathetic
> (including me!) to do anything about it.
discussion. I am at a first stage of proccess of becaming a Debian Developer.
And such an opinion isn't helpful for me at all.
You know that proccess is sick, but you do nothing to change it.
It isn't optimistic for me :/
regards
fEnIo
--
_ Bartosz Feński aka fEnIo | mailto:fe...@o2.pl | pgp:0x13fefc40
_|_|_ 32-050 Skawina - Głowackiego 3/15 - w. małopolskie - Polska
(0 0) phone:+48501608340 | ICQ:46704720 | GG:726362 | IRC:fEnIo
ooO--(_)--Ooo http://skawina.eu.org | JID:fe...@jabber.org | RLU:172001
Jeff Bailey
> That's very nice. You should remember that non-DD can observe this
> discussion. I am at a first stage of proccess of becaming a Debian
> Developer. And such an opinion isn't helpful for me at all. You know
> that proccess is sick, but you do nothing to change it. It isn't
> optimistic for me :/
I can't fix all the world's ills, and my Free-Software hacking time is
more than full right now.
I hope instead that this public conversation is a nice disclosure to
folks in the NM queue that patience is required. My own application
took somewhere around 6 months to do. (I used to have a copy of my
conversations with my AM. I remember that the total thing was >10k
long).
To expect perfection from Debian is unreasonable. If you have the time,
energy and patience to help, please apply.
Pierre Machard
> > > Just a suggestion to our NM advocates: when you have someone assigned
> > > to you, try to learn a bit about him/her before judging his/her
> > > responses to those (fairly procedural) checks. You may be before a
> > > celebrity.
> > Bzzzt. Why should our process be easier for celebrities? The WHOLE
> > process sucks, this isn't news. Just most of us are too apathetic
> > (including me!) to do anything about it.
> That's very nice. You should remember that non-DD can observe this
> discussion. I am at a first stage of proccess of becaming a Debian Developer.
> And such an opinion isn't helpful for me at all.
> You know that proccess is sick, but you do nothing to change it.
> It isn't optimistic for me :/
I believe that Free Software development require very motivated person.
I feel very concern with the difficulties Noman had to face to, I wish
Norman consider re-applying.
Applicant managers are aware how tricky this situation is. As far as
i am concerned I try to help, and I am doing my best in oder we don't
let people in a limbo.
Cheers,
P.S. I guess there is no need to put debian-private on Cc: here
--
Pierre Machard
<pmac...@debian.org> http://debian.org
GPG: 1024D/23706F87 : B906 A53F 84E0 49B6 6CF7 82C2 B3A0 2D66 2370 6F87
Robert Millan
Hey, it doesn't make much sense to CC both -private and -docs.
- if this discussion is private, CCing -docs makes it public.
- if it isn't, no need to use -private, use -devel instead or just -docs.
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 01:04:55PM -0700, Jeff Bailey wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 09:42:00PM +0200, Bartosz Fe?ski aka fEnIo wrote:
>
> > That's very nice. You should remember that non-DD can observe this
> > discussion. I am at a first stage of proccess of becaming a Debian
> > Developer. And such an opinion isn't helpful for me at all. You know
> > that proccess is sick, but you do nothing to change it. It isn't
> > optimistic for me :/
>
> I can't fix all the world's ills, and my Free-Software hacking time is
> more than full right now.
>
> I hope instead that this public conversation is a nice disclosure to
> folks in the NM queue that patience is required. My own application
> took somewhere around 6 months to do. (I used to have a copy of my
> conversations with my AM. I remember that the total thing was >10k
> long).
>
> To expect perfection from Debian is unreasonable. If you have the time,
> energy and patience to help, please apply.
>
> Tks,
> Jeff Bailey
>
> --
> Breathe into my hands, I'll cup them like a glass to drink from...
> - Tattle Tale
>
>
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--
Robert Millan
Bartosz Feński aka fEnIo
> > That's very nice. You should remember that non-DD can observe this
> > discussion. I am at a first stage of proccess of becaming a Debian
> > Developer. And such an opinion isn't helpful for me at all. You know
> > that proccess is sick, but you do nothing to change it. It isn't
> > optimistic for me :/
> I can't fix all the world's ills, and my Free-Software hacking time is
> more than full right now.
> I hope instead that this public conversation is a nice disclosure to
> folks in the NM queue that patience is required. My own application
> took somewhere around 6 months to do. (I used to have a copy of my
> conversations with my AM. I remember that the total thing was >10k
> long).
incomprehensible for me. If developers thinks that process of becaming
new developer is sick so why don't you change it?
I want to be a developer very much so I don't care how long will my process
be. But when even developers criticises that proccess then something
should be changed. It's of course only my opinion.
> To expect perfection from Debian is unreasonable. If you have the time,
> energy and patience to help, please apply.
(DD) have time to very absorbing processes.
Jeff Bailey
> Hey, it doesn't make much sense to CC both -private and -docs.
> - if this discussion is private, CCing -docs makes it public.
> - if it isn't, no need to use -private, use -devel instead or just -docs.
I'm not subscribed to -devel or -docs. I'm cc:'ing it as a courtesy,
since it was cc:'d on the original message.
Usually (since messages shouldn't be cross-posted like this) I just
wouldn't reply at all. However, I felt that since I was the one who
advocated rms and signed his key that it was important to reply to the
celebrity comment.
Tks,
Jeff Bailey
--
Breathe into my hands, I'll cup them like a glass to drink from...
- Tattle Tale
--
Robert Millan
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 11:25:48PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> > Hey, it doesn't make much sense to CC both -private and -docs.
>
> > - if this discussion is private, CCing -docs makes it public.
> > - if it isn't, no need to use -private, use -devel instead or just -docs.
>
> I'm not subscribed to -devel or -docs. I'm cc:'ing it as a courtesy,
> since it was cc:'d on the original message.
Yes.. uhm... well, it shouldn't have been added back then. I'd drop one of
the CCs myself, but have no opinion on wether the discussion should be
private or not ;)
--
Robert Millan
Leonard Milcin Jr.
Bartosz Feński aka fEnIo wrote:
> I've got patience. All I want to say is that all of this is quite
> incomprehensible for me. If developers thinks that process of becaming
> new developer is sick so why don't you change it?
> I want to be a developer very much so I don't care how long will my
process
> be. But when even developers criticises that proccess then something
> should be changed. It's of course only my opinion.
Bartek, you said you have patience. You can, and you want to spend much
time to become developer. And I think this is what we should expect from
developers, besides of course good level of knowledge and practice. When
one have no time to even complete NM process, how we could expect that
he would have time to care about his packages? I believe, that Norman
Walsh can take it up, but what if he have not enough time to do this?
As he said before: "Time passed. Eventually weeks passed. I started
feeling guilty about clogging up the process and told Fabio it'd be
September at least before I was able to free up enough time to try again."
I appreciate what Norman is making for community. He don't need to be dd
to prove it to me, that he's making good work. It is his decision, if he
would like to start NM again, or give it up. That don't mean of course
that whole NM process is broken.
If the whole process is designed, so only people with enough skill and
time could complete, then I think it is right. There are many folks with
some free time and enough skills that want to be debian developers like
Bartek. They would not fear NM restrictive process, so you don't have to
worry about lack of new maintainers. Beeing debian maintainer is seen
honourable. Don't throw it away making it simple and painless.
Regards,
Leonard Milcin Jr.
--
"Unix IS user friendly... It's just selective about who its friends are."
-- Tollef Fog Heen
Branden Robinson
-doc. It would have made more sense to crosspost to -project. I wish
people would cut this shit out. Crossposting between -private and a
public Debian list makes *NO* sense. ma...@dulug.duke.edu, I hereby
smack you.]
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 09:54:49AM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
> 8. Time passed. Eventually weeks passed. I started feeling guilty
> about clogging up the process and told Fabio it'd be September at
> least before I was able to free up enough time to try again.
>
> 9. Fabio suggested that he could either put me on hold or reject me.
>
> 10. I wrote back and said, why don't you put me on hold then.
>
> 11. Fabio wrote back and said sorry, he'd just rejected me.
I don't see anything really wrong with the process until that last step.
Assuming your account to be accurate, I think Fabio's decision to reject
you after giving you the impression that he cared about your opinion on
the subject was rude.
What does it hurt to have people on hold in the NM system? Are we
concerned that it makes our statistics look bad? Well, maybe our
statistics look bad because our process *really is* slow.
Treat the problem, not the symptoms.
Mr. Walsh, I apologize if you feel ill-treated. From what I can tell,
you have a right to feel that way. Hopefully Fabio will learn from this
experience.
(Fabio, my feelings on this subject are precisely consistent with the
tiff between Daniel Stone and me on debian-x a couple of weeks ago when
he said he'd let me make a decision, and then less than 24 hours later
went ahead and made it for me.)
--
G. Branden Robinson | It's like I have a shotgun in my
Debian GNU/Linux | mouth, I've got my finger on the
bra...@debian.org | trigger, and I like the taste of
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | the gunmetal. -- Robert Downey, Jr.
Branden Robinson
of the original crossposter, so please send him the bill.]
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:03:56PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 03:45:27PM +0100, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> > For what it's worth (not much), the person who started this thread did
> > everybody a disservice by cc'ing a public list (debian-doc) and a private
> > list (debian-private). Some of the people who replied may not have been
> > aware their answers were public.
>
> It makes no sense to keep the CC to -private if the discussion is not
> private. Could you people either drop the CC or replace it with -devel?
This isn't a technical issue, so -project is probably a better place.
--
G. Branden Robinson | Somewhere, there is a .sig so funny
Debian GNU/Linux | that reading it will cause an
bra...@debian.org | aneurysm. This is not that .sig.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |
Andreas Metzler
> [ObPrivate: This message isn't. Just propagating forward the stupidity
> of the original crossposter, so please send him the bill.]
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:03:56PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 03:45:27PM +0100, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
>>> For what it's worth (not much), the person who started this thread did
>>> everybody a disservice by cc'ing a public list (debian-doc) and a private
>>> list (debian-private). Some of the people who replied may not have been
>>> aware their answers were public.
>> It makes no sense to keep the CC to -private if the discussion is not
>> private. Could you people either drop the CC or replace it with -devel?
> This isn't a technical issue, so -project is probably a better place.
Why not -newmaint?
cu andreas
Chris Tillman
> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:41:01AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> > [ObPrivate: This message isn't. Just propagating forward the stupidity
> > of the original crossposter, so please send him the bill.]
> > On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:03:56PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 03:45:27PM +0100, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> >>> For what it's worth (not much), the person who started this thread did
> >>> everybody a disservice by cc'ing a public list (debian-doc) and a private
> >>> list (debian-private). Some of the people who replied may not have been
> >>> aware their answers were public.
>
> >> It makes no sense to keep the CC to -private if the discussion is not
> >> private. Could you people either drop the CC or replace it with -devel?
>
> > This isn't a technical issue, so -project is probably a better place.
>
> Why not -newmaint?
> cu andreas
Which is, of course, where the thread publicly originated.
--
Debian GNU/Linux Operating System
By the People, For the People
Chris Tillman (a people instance)
toff one at cox dot net
Norman Walsh
Hash: SHA1
/ Branden Robinson <bra...@debian.org> was heard to say:
| [ObPrivate: well, it obviously isn't private, having been crossposted to
| -doc. It would have made more sense to crosspost to -project. I wish
| people would cut this shit out. Crossposting between -private and a
| public Debian list makes *NO* sense. ma...@dulug.duke.edu, I hereby
| smack you.]
|
| On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 09:54:49AM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
|> 8. Time passed. Eventually weeks passed. I started feeling guilty
|> about clogging up the process and told Fabio it'd be September at
|> least before I was able to free up enough time to try again.
|>
|> 9. Fabio suggested that he could either put me on hold or reject me.
|>
|> 10. I wrote back and said, why don't you put me on hold then.
|>
|> 11. Fabio wrote back and said sorry, he'd just rejected me.
|
| I don't see anything really wrong with the process until that last step.
|
| Assuming your account to be accurate, I think Fabio's decision to reject
| you after giving you the impression that he cared about your opinion on
| the subject was rude.
Let me repeat publicly what I said in some mail that apparently didn't
go to this list:
Fabio was not rude. He never once acted in any way that I did not
think was entirely courteous, sincere, and diligent. We had a little
bad timing right at the end, but that's just Murphy's Law in action.
The discussion of my particular application is a tempest in a teapot.
It cannot possibly have deserved anywhere near the amount of attention
that it has apparently received.
Be seeing you,
norm
- --
Norman Walsh <n...@nwalsh.com> | Ambition, n. An overmastering desire to
http://nwalsh.com/ | be vilified by enemies while living and
| ridiculed by friends when
| dead.--Ambrose Bierce
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