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Re: Announcing new decision making procedures for Debian
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Jessica Clarke
Mar 31, 2021, 7:20:03 PM3/31/21
to
On 1 Apr 2021, at 00:06, Alejandro Nadal <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How will "the strength of the wording" be measured? I am not a DD, just a debian user, curious about the new process.
Swearing and personal attacks are great ways to demonstrate your passion.
Comparisons to communism, genocides and nazis are all particularly strong.
> Also, doesn't this give more influence to those developers with more time to write more mails, if the number of messages will be taken into account?
Yes; if you can’t find time to write the emails then you clearly care less than
those who do make the time.
> (If this message breaks the mailing list protocol in any way, I am deeply sorry, I am new to these debian mailing lists)
Top-posting is awful and should be an instant rejection of any opinions for a
GR IMO, same as non-plaintext replies and not line-wrapping.
Jess
> Alejandro Nadal
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 19:53 Enrico Zini <enr...@enricozini.org> wrote:
> Hello Debian Members,
>
> For some time, we have been having systemic issues that make GR
> discussions painful. GRs themselves shouldn't be painful, and don't need
> to be. Having a chilling effect to using GRs hurts Debian, and as a
> project we need a way to poll for consensus on project choices and
> directions more often than not.
>
> To overcome the current problems with GR discussions, we introduce a
> replacement weighted democratic system. The new procedure is this:
>
> * A developer proposes an issue with a signed message on
> debia...@lists.debian.org .
>
> * Anyone can express their consent or dissent by replying to the
> message.
>
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
>
> This method makes the fair assumption that the energy spent in writing
> messages to the discussion is related to the amount of insight a person
> has on an issue, and how much they care about it. In particular:
>
> * The more messages a person writes, the more the person cares, and the
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
> enough to deserve their real effort.
>
> * The more strongly worded replies are, the more the person cares, and
> the more their opinion will be taken into account: people who waste
> time with long, polite, well reasoned messages, clearly didn't care
> enough to get emotional about an issue.
>
> * The longer a person keeps writing, the more the person cares, and the
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who give up,
> clearly didn't care enough to make themselves heard.
>
> To avoid confusion, we'll maintain the same acronym as before. The new
> system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
> The first GR using this scheme will concern the introduction of this
> voting scheme for the future.
>
>
> Enrico
>
> --
> GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <enr...@enricozini.org>
>
> How will "the strength of the wording" be measured? I am not a DD, just a debian user, curious about the new process.
Swearing and personal attacks are great ways to demonstrate your passion.
Comparisons to communism, genocides and nazis are all particularly strong.
> Also, doesn't this give more influence to those developers with more time to write more mails, if the number of messages will be taken into account?
Yes; if you can’t find time to write the emails then you clearly care less than
those who do make the time.
> (If this message breaks the mailing list protocol in any way, I am deeply sorry, I am new to these debian mailing lists)
Top-posting is awful and should be an instant rejection of any opinions for a
GR IMO, same as non-plaintext replies and not line-wrapping.
Jess
> Alejandro Nadal
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 19:53 Enrico Zini <enr...@enricozini.org> wrote:
> Hello Debian Members,
>
> For some time, we have been having systemic issues that make GR
> discussions painful. GRs themselves shouldn't be painful, and don't need
> to be. Having a chilling effect to using GRs hurts Debian, and as a
> project we need a way to poll for consensus on project choices and
> directions more often than not.
>
> To overcome the current problems with GR discussions, we introduce a
> replacement weighted democratic system. The new procedure is this:
>
> * A developer proposes an issue with a signed message on
> debia...@lists.debian.org .
>
> * Anyone can express their consent or dissent by replying to the
> message.
>
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
>
> This method makes the fair assumption that the energy spent in writing
> messages to the discussion is related to the amount of insight a person
> has on an issue, and how much they care about it. In particular:
>
> * The more messages a person writes, the more the person cares, and the
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
> enough to deserve their real effort.
>
> * The more strongly worded replies are, the more the person cares, and
> the more their opinion will be taken into account: people who waste
> time with long, polite, well reasoned messages, clearly didn't care
> enough to get emotional about an issue.
>
> * The longer a person keeps writing, the more the person cares, and the
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who give up,
> clearly didn't care enough to make themselves heard.
>
> To avoid confusion, we'll maintain the same acronym as before. The new
> system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
> The first GR using this scheme will concern the introduction of this
> voting scheme for the future.
>
>
> Enrico
>
> --
> GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <enr...@enricozini.org>
Milan Kupcevic
Mar 31, 2021, 7:30:03 PM3/31/21
to
On 3/31/21 6:52 PM, Enrico Zini wrote:
[...]
\o/ Finally, it was about the time to get this right once and for all.
Milan
[...]
>
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
[...]
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
\o/ Finally, it was about the time to get this right once and for all.
Milan
Alejandro Nadal
Mar 31, 2021, 7:30:03 PM3/31/21
to
How will "the strength of the wording" be measured? I am not a DD, just a debian user, curious about the new process.
Also, doesn't this give more influence to those developers with more time to write more mails, if the number of messages will be taken into account?
(If this message breaks the mailing list protocol in any way, I am deeply sorry, I am new to these debian mailing lists)
Alejandro Nadal
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 19:53 Enrico Zini <enr...@enricozini.org> wrote:
Hello Debian Members,
For some time, we have been having systemic issues that make GR
discussions painful. GRs themselves shouldn't be painful, and don't need
to be. Having a chilling effect to using GRs hurts Debian, and as a
project we need a way to poll for consensus on project choices and
directions more often than not.
To overcome the current problems with GR discussions, we introduce a
replacement weighted democratic system. The new procedure is this:
* A developer proposes an issue with a signed message on
debia...@lists.debian.org .
* Anyone can express their consent or dissent by replying to the
message.
* When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
review all messages and pronounce the winner.
Milan Kupcevic
Mar 31, 2021, 7:40:02 PM3/31/21
to
On 3/31/21 6:52 PM, Enrico Zini wrote:
[...]
>
[...]
>
> To avoid confusion, we'll maintain the same acronym as before. The new
> system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
At least there will be no confusion!?!
> system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
Milan
martin f krafft
Mar 31, 2021, 7:50:02 PM3/31/21
to
Regarding the following, written by "Jessica Clarke" on 2021-04-01 at 00:12 Uhr +0100:
Swearing and personal attacks are great ways to demonstrate your passion. Comparisons to communism, genocides and nazis are all particularly strong.
It's also become increasingly obvious that men are useless at tech, and their contributions should regularly be dismissed based on their biology. Bonus points for finding ways to do so that are completely out of context and uncalled for, and as with anything else: the more offensive, the better.
--
- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft
- :' : proud Debian developer
.'http://people.debian.org/~madduck- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
"politics is the entertainment branch of industry."
-- frank zappa
Donald Norwood
Mar 31, 2021, 8:00:03 PM3/31/21
to
On 3/31/21 7:12 PM, Jessica Clarke wrote:
> On 1 Apr 2021, at 00:06, Alejandro Nadal <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> How will "the strength of the wording" be measured? I am not a DD, just a debian user, curious about the new process.
>
> Swearing and personal attacks are great ways to demonstrate your passion.
> Comparisons to communism, genocides and nazis are all particularly strong.
of common words? Because I've never been a fan of the spellchecker (big
brother) and would love to cast off its piercing disdain.
--
--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05
Hernan Loureiro
Mar 31, 2021, 8:10:03 PM3/31/21
to
someone can remind me please how to unsuscribe from.the deb lists pls this is annoying
Milan Kupcevic
Mar 31, 2021, 8:50:03 PM3/31/21
to
On 3/31/21 8:33 PM, Daniel Lenharo de Souza wrote:
> So,
>
> Em 31/03/2021 19:52, Enrico Zini escreveu:
>> Hello Debian Members,
> opinion from a person who are doing an important work and can't reply a
> lot e-mails?
>
> Is it really serious?
>
>
Yes.
> So,
>
> Em 31/03/2021 19:52, Enrico Zini escreveu:
>> Hello Debian Members,
>> * The more messages a person writes, the more the person cares, and the
>> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
>> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
>> enough to deserve their real effort.
>>
>
> If i have time to spam to list, my opinion will be stronger than a
>> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
>> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
>> enough to deserve their real effort.
>>
>
> opinion from a person who are doing an important work and can't reply a
> lot e-mails?
>
> Is it really serious?
>
>
Yes.
Enrico Zini
Apr 1, 2021, 4:10:02 AM4/1/21
to
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 07:40:43PM -0400, Donald Norwood wrote:
> On 3/31/21 7:12 PM, Jessica Clarke wrote:
> Will my contribution score yield a higher metric with key misspellings
> of common words? Because I've never been a fan of the spellchecker (big
> brother) and would love to cast off its piercing disdain.
Absolutely! We need your ideas of what you are really thinking, not what
> On 3/31/21 7:12 PM, Jessica Clarke wrote:
> Will my contribution score yield a higher metric with key misspellings
> of common words? Because I've never been a fan of the spellchecker (big
> brother) and would love to cast off its piercing disdain.
an automated spellchecker thinks of it!
Andrei POPESCU
Apr 1, 2021, 4:20:03 AM4/1/21
to
On Jo, 01 apr 21, 00:12:56, Jessica Clarke wrote:
> On 1 Apr 2021, at 00:06, Alejandro Nadal <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (If this message breaks the mailing list protocol in any way, I am
> > deeply sorry, I am new to these debian mailing lists)
>
> Top-posting is awful and should be an instant rejection of any opinions for a
> GR IMO, same as non-plaintext replies and not line-wrapping.
This is obviously wrong! Top-posting, html attachments and long lines
> On 1 Apr 2021, at 00:06, Alejandro Nadal <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (If this message breaks the mailing list protocol in any way, I am
> > deeply sorry, I am new to these debian mailing lists)
>
> Top-posting is awful and should be an instant rejection of any opinions for a
> GR IMO, same as non-plaintext replies and not line-wrapping.
should instantly give higher value to the opinion!
Bonus points for writing the entire reply as an attached .doc, or even
better .ppt, file (MS Office 1997 version or earlier).
Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Filippo Rusconi
Apr 1, 2021, 4:30:03 AM4/1/21
to
Very well crafted april's fool :-)
Cheers,
Filippo
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 12:52:53AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
>Hello Debian Members,
>
>For some time, we have been having systemic issues that make GR
>discussions painful. GRs themselves shouldn't be painful, and don't need
>to be. Having a chilling effect to using GRs hurts Debian, and as a
>project we need a way to poll for consensus on project choices and
>directions more often than not.
>
>To overcome the current problems with GR discussions, we introduce a
>replacement weighted democratic system. The new procedure is this:
>
> * A developer proposes an issue with a signed message on
> debia...@lists.debian.org .
>
> * Anyone can express their consent or dissent by replying to the
> message.
>
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
>
>This method makes the fair assumption that the energy spent in writing
>messages to the discussion is related to the amount of insight a person
>has on an issue, and how much they care about it. In particular:
>
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Filippo Rusconi, PhD
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Research scientist at CNRS
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ http://msxpertsuite.org
http://www.debian.org
Cheers,
Filippo
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 12:52:53AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
>Hello Debian Members,
>
>For some time, we have been having systemic issues that make GR
>discussions painful. GRs themselves shouldn't be painful, and don't need
>to be. Having a chilling effect to using GRs hurts Debian, and as a
>project we need a way to poll for consensus on project choices and
>directions more often than not.
>
>To overcome the current problems with GR discussions, we introduce a
>replacement weighted democratic system. The new procedure is this:
>
> * A developer proposes an issue with a signed message on
> debia...@lists.debian.org .
>
> * Anyone can express their consent or dissent by replying to the
> message.
>
> * When the discussion eventually dies down, the Debian Secretary will
> review all messages and pronounce the winner.
>
>
>This method makes the fair assumption that the energy spent in writing
>messages to the discussion is related to the amount of insight a person
>has on an issue, and how much they care about it. In particular:
>
> * The more messages a person writes, the more the person cares, and the
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
> enough to deserve their real effort.
>
> * The more strongly worded replies are, the more the person cares, and
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who only write
> every once in a while, clearly don't think the issue is important
> enough to deserve their real effort.
>
> the more their opinion will be taken into account: people who waste
> time with long, polite, well reasoned messages, clearly didn't care
> enough to get emotional about an issue.
>
> * The longer a person keeps writing, the more the person cares, and the
> time with long, polite, well reasoned messages, clearly didn't care
> enough to get emotional about an issue.
>
> more their opinion will be taken into account: people who give up,
> clearly didn't care enough to make themselves heard.
>
> clearly didn't care enough to make themselves heard.
>
>To avoid confusion, we'll maintain the same acronym as before. The new
>system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
>system will be called Debian Grandiose Reflection.
>
>The first GR using this scheme will concern the introduction of this
>voting scheme for the future.
>
>
--
>voting scheme for the future.
>
>
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Filippo Rusconi, PhD
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Research scientist at CNRS
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ http://msxpertsuite.org
http://www.debian.org
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
Apr 1, 2021, 4:50:02 AM4/1/21
to
with mud got ignored.
Therefore, I ask for support for a GR that would change the GR decision
making process to have the fist fight thingy implemented.
Let's fists (or covid) decide who's right.
--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
Timo Röhling
Apr 1, 2021, 6:10:02 AM4/1/21
to
* Andrei POPESCU <andreim...@gmail.com> [2021-04-01 11:19]:
for a thorough rebuttal.
Cheers
Timo
>Bonus points for writing the entire reply as an attached .doc, or even
>better .ppt, file (MS Office 1997 version or earlier).
Kindly refer to the EBCDIC encoded WordStar document on my dial-in BBS
>better .ppt, file (MS Office 1997 version or earlier).
for a thorough rebuttal.
Cheers
Timo
Peter Pentchev
Apr 1, 2021, 6:20:03 PM4/1/21
to
my coworkers are probably getting tired of me waxing nostalgic about
it pretty much at least one per month)
G'luck,
Peter
--
Peter Pentchev ro...@ringlet.net ro...@debian.org p...@storpool.com
PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115 C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13
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