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Bug#983291: fonts-noto-core: Excessive fonts bundles in fonts-noto-core make desired font selection painful
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Dan Dascalescu
Feb 21, 2021, 6:50:03 PM2/21/21
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Package: fonts-noto-core
Version: 20200323-1build1~ubuntu20.04.1
Severity: important
After gathering feedback from several distros and user forums,
I would like to make a suggestion for the fonts-noto package that I
believe will save a significant amount of time for the vast majority of
users, and will provide backwards compatibility with the status quo.
The issue is that the fonts-noto-core package bundles together a very
large number (over 190[1]) of exotic fonts. While the aim of covering
all Unicode scripts (65+) means the package covers our bases for
individual users on every locale imaginable, it also presents a
challenge for font selectors in applications, and for *all* users using
them.
Some applications freeze while trying to render so many fonts.[2]
But more importantly, a typical user is likely to only use *one* of these
language fonts, if any (Ubuntu Desktop statistics show that the majority
of users use the English locale.[3]) Every time a user needs to select
a font, the font selector is cluttered by ~190 fonts they do not need.[4]
Even only 5 seconds wasted scrolling through this list of unnecessary
fonts, and only 1 font selection per day, amounts to several tens of
thousands of person-hours wasted each day, when scaled to the entire
user base.[5]
Uninstalling the fonts is commonly requested[6], but far from trivial[7],
or even impossible[8].
My proposal is simple: split the package in at least two components
that can be installed and removed independently. From what I can see
in the package manifest, the following fonts might have general
applicability:
Noto Sans
Noto Sans Linear {A,B}
Noto Sans Display
Noto Sans Math
Noto Sans Symbols
Noto Sans Symbols2
Noto Serif
These would comprise one package. For simplicity, the other package can
contain all other 180+ fonts. One of them might be useful for users
in certain locales, two for a few bilingual/multilingual users who might
need more than one script, and more than two, only for very specialized
cases (language researchers?).
The meta package can still pull in all dependencies, but this will allow
the vast majority of users to easily uninstall the fonts they don't need.
Note that while I am a software engineer, I am not familiar with
Linux development, so please excuse any potential naivete when it
comes to the arcane details of Debian packaging. I do believe that,
conceptually, the solution I've proposed above makes sense, and I trust
that the ingenuity of Debian maintainers will make its implementation
possible.
[1]: https://packages.debian.org/sid/fonts-noto-core
[2]: https://bugs.launchpad.net/pinta/+bug/1916373
[3]: https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics
[4]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1140030/how-to-disable-unused-asiatic-fonts
[5]: https://web.archive.org/web/20170717075850/https://insights.ubuntu.com/about/
[6]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/820746/remove-unused-fonts
[7]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/214950/how-can-i-remove-fonts-that-i-never-use-from-libreoffice-and-linux-in-general
[8]: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433215
-- Package-specific info:
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name Version Architecture Description
+++-==================-=================-============-=====================================================
ii fontconfig 2.13.1-2ubuntu3 amd64 generic font configuration library - support binaries
ii libfreetype6:amd64 2.10.1-2ubuntu0.1 amd64 FreeType 2 font engine, shared library files
ii libxft2:amd64 2.3.3-0ubuntu1 amd64 FreeType-based font drawing library for X
-- System Information:
Debian Release: bullseye/sid
APT prefers focal-updates
APT policy: (500, 'focal-updates'), (500, 'focal-security'), (500, 'focal-proposed'), (500, 'focal')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
-- no debconf information
Version: 20200323-1build1~ubuntu20.04.1
Severity: important
After gathering feedback from several distros and user forums,
I would like to make a suggestion for the fonts-noto package that I
believe will save a significant amount of time for the vast majority of
users, and will provide backwards compatibility with the status quo.
The issue is that the fonts-noto-core package bundles together a very
large number (over 190[1]) of exotic fonts. While the aim of covering
all Unicode scripts (65+) means the package covers our bases for
individual users on every locale imaginable, it also presents a
challenge for font selectors in applications, and for *all* users using
them.
Some applications freeze while trying to render so many fonts.[2]
But more importantly, a typical user is likely to only use *one* of these
language fonts, if any (Ubuntu Desktop statistics show that the majority
of users use the English locale.[3]) Every time a user needs to select
a font, the font selector is cluttered by ~190 fonts they do not need.[4]
Even only 5 seconds wasted scrolling through this list of unnecessary
fonts, and only 1 font selection per day, amounts to several tens of
thousands of person-hours wasted each day, when scaled to the entire
user base.[5]
Uninstalling the fonts is commonly requested[6], but far from trivial[7],
or even impossible[8].
My proposal is simple: split the package in at least two components
that can be installed and removed independently. From what I can see
in the package manifest, the following fonts might have general
applicability:
Noto Sans
Noto Sans Linear {A,B}
Noto Sans Display
Noto Sans Math
Noto Sans Symbols
Noto Sans Symbols2
Noto Serif
These would comprise one package. For simplicity, the other package can
contain all other 180+ fonts. One of them might be useful for users
in certain locales, two for a few bilingual/multilingual users who might
need more than one script, and more than two, only for very specialized
cases (language researchers?).
The meta package can still pull in all dependencies, but this will allow
the vast majority of users to easily uninstall the fonts they don't need.
Note that while I am a software engineer, I am not familiar with
Linux development, so please excuse any potential naivete when it
comes to the arcane details of Debian packaging. I do believe that,
conceptually, the solution I've proposed above makes sense, and I trust
that the ingenuity of Debian maintainers will make its implementation
possible.
[1]: https://packages.debian.org/sid/fonts-noto-core
[2]: https://bugs.launchpad.net/pinta/+bug/1916373
[3]: https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics
[4]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1140030/how-to-disable-unused-asiatic-fonts
[5]: https://web.archive.org/web/20170717075850/https://insights.ubuntu.com/about/
[6]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/820746/remove-unused-fonts
[7]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/214950/how-can-i-remove-fonts-that-i-never-use-from-libreoffice-and-linux-in-general
[8]: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433215
-- Package-specific info:
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name Version Architecture Description
+++-==================-=================-============-=====================================================
ii fontconfig 2.13.1-2ubuntu3 amd64 generic font configuration library - support binaries
ii libfreetype6:amd64 2.10.1-2ubuntu0.1 amd64 FreeType 2 font engine, shared library files
ii libxft2:amd64 2.3.3-0ubuntu1 amd64 FreeType-based font drawing library for X
-- System Information:
Debian Release: bullseye/sid
APT prefers focal-updates
APT policy: (500, 'focal-updates'), (500, 'focal-security'), (500, 'focal-proposed'), (500, 'focal')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
-- no debconf information
Jonas Smedegaard
Feb 21, 2021, 7:30:11 PM2/21/21
to
Hi Dan,
Quoting Dan Dascalescu (2021-02-22 00:42:28)
> My proposal is simple: split the package in at least two components
> that can be installed and removed independently. From what I can see
> in the package manifest, the following fonts might have general
> applicability:
>
> Noto Sans
> Noto Sans Linear {A,B}
> Noto Sans Display
> Noto Sans Math
> Noto Sans Symbols
> Noto Sans Symbols2
> Noto Serif
>
> These would comprise one package. For simplicity, the other package
> can contain all other 180+ fonts.
I would prefer to relieve the pain also for _all_ users, however.
Probably makes sense to group by writing system¹ since they are commonly
tied to cultural groups. I imagine that it is more common e.g. for
users in South India to need other South Indian scripts (and maybe North
Indian scripts as well), than it is for them to need Canadian Syllabics.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_system
- Jonas
--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
Quoting Dan Dascalescu (2021-02-22 00:42:28)
> The issue is that the fonts-noto-core package bundles together a very
> large number (over 190[1]) of exotic fonts. While the aim of covering
> all Unicode scripts (65+) means the package covers our bases for
> individual users on every locale imaginable, it also presents a
> challenge for font selectors in applications, and for *all* users
> using them.
I agree that it makes sense to split the Noto fonts into more packages.
> large number (over 190[1]) of exotic fonts. While the aim of covering
> all Unicode scripts (65+) means the package covers our bases for
> individual users on every locale imaginable, it also presents a
> challenge for font selectors in applications, and for *all* users
> using them.
> My proposal is simple: split the package in at least two components
> that can be installed and removed independently. From what I can see
> in the package manifest, the following fonts might have general
> applicability:
>
> Noto Sans
> Noto Sans Linear {A,B}
> Noto Sans Display
> Noto Sans Math
> Noto Sans Symbols
> Noto Sans Symbols2
> Noto Serif
>
> These would comprise one package. For simplicity, the other package
> can contain all other 180+ fonts.
Probably makes sense to group by writing system¹ since they are commonly
tied to cultural groups. I imagine that it is more common e.g. for
users in South India to need other South Indian scripts (and maybe North
Indian scripts as well), than it is for them to need Canadian Syllabics.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_system
- Jonas
--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
Dan Dascalescu
Feb 24, 2021, 10:50:03 PM2/24/21
to
Agree that a separation per writing system would be best.
What would be the effort necessary to achieve that, compared to "Latin vs. others"?
BTW, Noto Sans Linear A and B also look like some sort of cuneiform font, and
I missed Noto Mono and Noto Music from my initial selection of fonts with general
applicability.
Jonas Smedegaard
Feb 25, 2021, 12:10:03 AM2/25/21
to
Quoting Dan Dascalescu (2021-02-25 04:43:56)
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:19 PM Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> > I would prefer to relieve the pain also for _all_ users, however.
Let me try rephrase:
I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math bundle).
What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
all users globally to be able to mix and match.
> Agree that a separation per writing system would be best.
>
> What would be the effort necessary to achieve that, compared to "Latin
> vs. others"?
>
> BTW, Noto Sans Linear A and B also look like some sort of cuneiform
> font, and I missed Noto Mono and Noto Music from my initial selection
> of fonts with general applicability.
[snip]
>
> What would be the effort necessary to achieve that, compared to "Latin
> vs. others"?
>
> BTW, Noto Sans Linear A and B also look like some sort of cuneiform
> font, and I missed Noto Mono and Noto Music from my initial selection
> of fonts with general applicability.
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:19 PM Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> > I would prefer to relieve the pain also for _all_ users, however.
I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math bundle).
What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
all users globally to be able to mix and match.
Jonas Smedegaard
Jan 19, 2023, 7:20:04 AM1/19/23
to
Quoting fab...@greffrath.com (2023-01-19 12:30:48)
> questionable.
>
> I think it's safe to say that the Latin+Greek+Cyrillic variants of Noto
> Sans and Serif (i.e. those without a suffix) are considered as general
> purpose fonts and *all the others* which carry a specific suffix in
> their names are considered as special cases.
>
> I think splitting up the general purpose fonts from the specialized rest
> is *at least* the one split that can be asked from this package.
> Splitting the more specialized fonts up by "writing system" or whatever
> may be left as an exercise. Apparently these splits aren't as "easy" or
> unambigious as the aforementioned one, because literally nothing has
> been undertaken in this regard since at least two years now.
>
> It seems that this is another case where the perfect (split up by
> writing system) is the enemy of the good (split up only the LGC fonts).
> Seriously, we need a fonts-noto-latin or similar package, thanks!
The very purpose of Noto is to cover many scripts.
If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many fonts
covering that smaller scope.
- Jonas
--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
* Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones
> > I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
> > for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
> > bundle).
>
> While this for sure sounds noble at first sight, it's also just as
> > for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
> > bundle).
>
> questionable.
>
> I think it's safe to say that the Latin+Greek+Cyrillic variants of Noto
> Sans and Serif (i.e. those without a suffix) are considered as general
> purpose fonts and *all the others* which carry a specific suffix in
> their names are considered as special cases.
>
> I think splitting up the general purpose fonts from the specialized rest
> is *at least* the one split that can be asked from this package.
> Splitting the more specialized fonts up by "writing system" or whatever
> may be left as an exercise. Apparently these splits aren't as "easy" or
> unambigious as the aforementioned one, because literally nothing has
> been undertaken in this regard since at least two years now.
>
> It seems that this is another case where the perfect (split up by
> writing system) is the enemy of the good (split up only the LGC fonts).
> Seriously, we need a fonts-noto-latin or similar package, thanks!
The very purpose of Noto is to cover many scripts.
If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many fonts
covering that smaller scope.
- Jonas
--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
fab...@greffrath.com
Jan 19, 2023, 7:40:04 AM1/19/23
to
> I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
> bundle).
While this for sure sounds noble at first sight, it's also just as
questionable.
I think it's safe to say that the Latin+Greek+Cyrillic variants of Noto
Sans and Serif (i.e. those without a suffix) are considered as general
purpose fonts and *all the others* which carry a specific suffix in
their names are considered as special cases.
I think splitting up the general purpose fonts from the specialized rest
is *at least* the one split that can be asked from this package.
Splitting the more specialized fonts up by "writing system" or whatever
may be left as an exercise. Apparently these splits aren't as "easy" or
unambigious as the aforementioned one, because literally nothing has
been undertaken in this regard since at least two years now.
It seems that this is another case where the perfect (split up by
writing system) is the enemy of the good (split up only the LGC fonts).
Seriously, we need a fonts-noto-latin or similar package, thanks!
- Fabian
> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
> bundle).
While this for sure sounds noble at first sight, it's also just as
questionable.
I think it's safe to say that the Latin+Greek+Cyrillic variants of Noto
Sans and Serif (i.e. those without a suffix) are considered as general
purpose fonts and *all the others* which carry a specific suffix in
their names are considered as special cases.
I think splitting up the general purpose fonts from the specialized rest
is *at least* the one split that can be asked from this package.
Splitting the more specialized fonts up by "writing system" or whatever
may be left as an exercise. Apparently these splits aren't as "easy" or
unambigious as the aforementioned one, because literally nothing has
been undertaken in this regard since at least two years now.
It seems that this is another case where the perfect (split up by
writing system) is the enemy of the good (split up only the LGC fonts).
Seriously, we need a fonts-noto-latin or similar package, thanks!
Jonas Smedegaard
Jan 20, 2023, 2:10:03 AM1/20/23
to
Quoting Fabian Greffrath (2023-01-20 07:52:49)
>
> However, you contradict yourself here:
Perhaps it helps (at least others following along here) to include the
sentence that I wrote just before the narrow you made above:
> I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math bundle).
Kind regards,
> Am Donnerstag, dem 19.01.2023 um 13:12 +0100 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard:
> > The very purpose of Noto is to cover many scripts.
> > If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many
> > fonts covering that smaller scope.
>
> Sure, I was expecting a stubborn reply...
> > The very purpose of Noto is to cover many scripts.
> > If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many
> > fonts covering that smaller scope.
>
>
> However, you contradict yourself here:
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 01:19:02 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> > I agree that it makes sense to split the Noto fonts into more packages.
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 01:19:02 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> > I agree that it makes sense to split the Noto fonts into more packages.
>
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:56:11 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> > What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
> > all users globally to be able to mix and match.
I stand by those words, and see no contradiction.
> > What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
> > all users globally to be able to mix and match.
Perhaps it helps (at least others following along here) to include the
sentence that I wrote just before the narrow you made above:
> I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize specifically
> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math bundle).
Fabian Greffrath
Jan 20, 2023, 2:12:42 AM1/20/23
to
Am Donnerstag, dem 19.01.2023 um 13:12 +0100 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard:
> The very purpose of Noto is to cover many scripts.
> If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many
> fonts covering that smaller scope.
> If you need latin-cyrillic-greek coverage, pick another o the many
> fonts covering that smaller scope.
Sure, I was expecting a stubborn reply...
However, you contradict yourself here:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 01:19:02 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> I agree that it makes sense to split the Noto fonts into more packages.
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:56:11 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
> all users globally to be able to mix and match.
- Fabian
However, you contradict yourself here:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 01:19:02 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> I agree that it makes sense to split the Noto fonts into more packages.
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:56:11 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> wrote:
> What I will do instead is generally split more fine-grained - for all
> all users globally to be able to mix and match.
fab...@greffrath.com
Jan 20, 2023, 3:10:03 AM1/20/23
to
Am 20.01.2023 07:59, schrieb Jonas Smedegaard:
>> I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize
>> specifically
>> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
>> bundle).
A split into "LCG" and "others" would be the first welcome step towards
>> I will *not* split the packaging of Noto fonts to optimize
>> specifically
>> for Western society (i.e. Latin + Musical notes + emojis + math
>> bundle).
a more universal split by writing system - and actually the only split
that people ever asked for regarding this package.
- Fabian
Jonas Smedegaard
Dec 22, 2023, 1:30:07 PM12/22/23
to
Quoting dr. ir. Tjeerd J. Pinkert (2023-12-22 17:48:09)
> Dear Fabian, List,
>
> thanks for packaging fonts for Debian.
>
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:28:36 +0200 Fabian Greffrath <fab...@debian.org>
> wrote:
> > > If I recall it correctly, the primary suggestion in that bug report
> > > is to split fonts-noto-core into an LCG and an "other" package.
> >
> > I have created a MR to implement this:
> >
> > https://salsa.debian.org/fonts-team/fonts-noto/-/merge_requests/1
> >
> > - Fabian
>
> I was also struggling with the extensive font list issue. I managed to
> deinstall the font today to get rid of the annoyance. Of course, I am
> now also rid of a set of type faces.
>
> Why are there so many language specific font files in the package?
You might find upstrem answer to this question relevant.
If you reinstall fonts-noto-core and less, you can do this:
zless /usr/share/doc/fonts-noto-core/FAQ.md.gz
...and then read the topic near the bottom by the title "Could you
provide a single font file that covers every language (or at least as
many scripts as possible)?"
> Dear Fabian, List,
>
> thanks for packaging fonts for Debian.
>
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:28:36 +0200 Fabian Greffrath <fab...@debian.org>
> wrote:
> > > If I recall it correctly, the primary suggestion in that bug report
> > > is to split fonts-noto-core into an LCG and an "other" package.
> >
> > I have created a MR to implement this:
> >
> > https://salsa.debian.org/fonts-team/fonts-noto/-/merge_requests/1
> >
> > - Fabian
>
> I was also struggling with the extensive font list issue. I managed to
> deinstall the font today to get rid of the annoyance. Of course, I am
> now also rid of a set of type faces.
>
> Why are there so many language specific font files in the package?
You might find upstrem answer to this question relevant.
If you reinstall fonts-noto-core and less, you can do this:
zless /usr/share/doc/fonts-noto-core/FAQ.md.gz
...and then read the topic near the bottom by the title "Could you
provide a single font file that covers every language (or at least as
many scripts as possible)?"
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