RE: [Moon-Net] Response to HB9DRI:
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Alex Artieda
Oct 1, 2014, 4:45:53 AM10/1/14
to moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com, moon...@googlegroups.com, lin...@googlegroups.com
Dear Friends
This could be a never ending story, is not the first time we had this kind
of behaviors, especially for those who are desesperate for public
recognition...
OK1VPZ and OK1TEH publish a priori information regarding me and the IQ+XT
without understanding properly how a SDR works, the worst part is when they
try to validate their comments using the name of Leif SM5BSZ who already in
publish correct both guys and demonstrate how wrong their comments are, is
pathetic, anti-etic and demonstrate just "ignorance" when somebody try to
bias the information spread on the web using the well reputation of other
ones, this spoke about how low is the self-confidence of both guys about
what they know and what they did, my recommendation sincerely for you both
is take a self-confidence seminar and improve your social competence, not
everything need to be technical stuff, give yourself a chance to grow; then
probably both will understand what we are talking about here.
If somebody take care so much about "Serious contest in Central Europe" why
they still using a nasty FT847 radio, one of the worst radios in side band
noise, an clicks and pops???
The problematic about contesting in EU is not only noise transmitters, for
me existing two serious problems: the proximity of the stations and the
tremendous Illegal power the terrestrial stations are using, period... just
browse the internet, this people is so stupid even they claim in public the
amount of kilowatts they use, that is a really problem.
73 de Alex, HB9DRI
-----Original Message-----
From: moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com
[mailto:moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com] On Behalf Of Vladimír Petržílka
Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014 02:17
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Subject: [Moon-Net] Response to HB9DRI:
Dear all
Although my English is rather poor, I will try express here my short opinion
to Alex's quite arrogant message. Please take it as it is: I am not novice
on VHF and for sure not ignorant as he wrote. And even not some "no name"
stupid boy from the East as Alex thinking. I was always focused to the EMC
and particularly QRM issue in central EU contesting - already within last 30
years. Alex should to know, that we have produced in OK 30 years ago
transceivers with optimized sideband noise performance, which were better
from such view, than any on his list. And even I could put here for him a
question, why somebody, who doesn't understand the QRM problematic in VHF
contesting now become so critical to the personal opinion, what has written
on one private web page? And how many IARU VHF/UHF Contests he won? How many
QRO+ contest competitors he has again and again in 20km distance? Or...
No, I don't want to be as somebody is. It is below my dignity.
Let's look on the issue with cold head:
I wrote on our web page: "Due to my opinion Alex has little bit too much
business look on this matter and some of his specific technical conclusions
we found, let's say as a little bit too optimistic. Particularly VHF contest
operation in Central EU has it's own specific technical categories and
optimism are not in place."
Yes English is not good, but it is a clear expression. And still it is my
belief. Why?
Commercial transceivers performance is not good enough to fulfil needs of
QRO VHF contesting in central EU. Yes, K3 is a bit better, but still far
away not enough. We are running contests in very dense populated areas and
average distance between one to more QRO stations is about 25km. If you will
calculate, what will be the noise level from near competitor, even if the
best transceivers on both sites will be used, the noise level will be above
S9. So, some additional smart solution is needed to be able make some
valuable contest QSOs. Who has interest to know more about it, here is my
poor translation of presentation, written for Polish VHF meeting this year:
http://www.ok2kkw.com/zzz/qrm_w_zawodach_ok1vpz_en.pdf
However phase noise as well as the sideband noise (what difference in
between!) are not the only critical phenomena, which have significant
influence in the QRM issue. It could be very complex issue. Each theory is
grey, green tree of life! For example ingress from your own antenna may be
spreaded around and go back into bad screened exciter, running on low level.
And particularly into the oscillator, where the loop must suddenly correct
influence of high level of EM field into each active component. Commercial
transceiver, even the worst noisy legendary TS770 had very well screened LO
as well as all low signal level parts of transmitting chain. How looks the
mechanical solution of the "reverse SDR"? How good screening is used? And
what about the noise from supplying? And how looks the LC circuit of LO? As
high as possible Q of LC resonator circuitry is significant part of long way
to get low noise level from the LO. How high Q has LO in presented gadget?
And it is not the only one group of questions - what about DAC? What dynamic
range has the used DAC? How sensitive will be LO for vibrations? Any
vibrations - for example from the fan from near PC may have significant
influence to the LO phase noise performance. And next - what about
intermodulations? The LTC5598 IQ modulator has in datasheet max output level
for acceptable IMD less, than 3dBm. How bad will be the IMD in the presented
"reverse SDR", if the author declares output level + 20dBm. SSB is not a
FSK... I will not continue in more suspicions, why not to use it in
contesting and repeat only the expression, written in the report: "VHF
contest operation in Central EU has it's own specific technical categories
and optimism are not in place." Next time, when you will look forward to
participate in such hard core operation and you want to run QRO station, I
would say: please do not use this toy. It will be in your interest as well
as in the interest of all others up to 100km distance!
I have asked Alex to borrow me his product for testing, but he refused...
OK, maybe it really is so good as he declares. But based on his declaration
only I will not to buy it.
But anyway - it is nothing against Alex. He made an excellent job, not only
in IQ SDR for both polarizations antenna for EME, but as well as with his
experiments, which may help to designers find a way to a "new generation"
equipment, already usable in VHF contesting, hi. And present "reverse SDR"
may be for sure successfuly used in EME operation, where almost everything
(except PA) is very different compare to VHF contesting.
For final: experience and knowledge of all complex aspects in EMC creates
humbleness. And oposite - lack of it helps to intumescence of Ego only. And
such ego is not good advisor, believe me. We should be rather modest and
take all of such novelties with suspicion. And if it is really so good -
well any of us want to have real happy day time to time. Isn's it?.. :-)
Best 73 to all! Vlada OK1VPZ
BTW: I have participated on first EME tests in OK on 2m already on early
80-ties, if someone remember OK1KRA call. Later on I am rather in the back
of complete contesting team below OK2KKW and OK2A calls.
-----Original Message-----
From: moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com
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Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:02 PM
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Subject: Moon-net Digest, Vol 177, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: EME Conference 2014 Pleumeur-Bodou (Leif Asbrink)
2. WA2ODO's New 144MHz Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW
Preamps (Les Listwa)
3. Re: ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY (Paul Chominski)
4. Re: HB9DRI Job to optimistic!! (Alex Artieda)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 15:56:01 +0200
From: Leif Asbrink <le...@sm5bsz.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] EME Conference 2014 Pleumeur-Bodou
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com, mo...@moonbounce.info,
moon...@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <20140930155601.aee6...@sm5bsz.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hello Matej,
I have read your page about the meeting:
> http://www.ok2kkw.com/00003016/eme2014/eme2014bodou_eng.htm
Unfortunately your text in unclear on a couple of points.
This is what you have published:
"I had the opportunity to had talk with a well-known Leif, SM5BSZ and I must
say that we liked it because both of us we agreed in opinions about some
technical lectures - for example some aspects of HB9DRI's presentation of
the usage of SDR for TX purposes.
Due to my opinion Alex has little bit too much business look on this matter
and some of his specific technical conclusions we found, let's say as a
little bit too optimistic. Particularly VHF contest operation in Central EU
has it's own specific technical categories and optimism are not in place.
Then we talked about the problems with VHF contests in Central Europe,
fighting with phase noise, IF crystal filtering in transverter and discussed
contesting on VHF during 70's of last century."
1) We both agree that commercially available ham transmitters do not have
the spectral purity required for VHF contest operation in Central EU, but I
do not agree with you that Alex has little bit too much business look on
this matter. You may have told me your opinion and I may not have told you I
do not agree. Facts speak for themselves, here is measured sideband noise
from a steady carrier on 144 MHz from unmodified transmitters:
Model Sideband noise Reference
20kHz 100kHz
(dBc/Hz) (dBc/Hz)
R2-CW -136 -139
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
TS780 -133 -140
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
TR9130 -132 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
IC275 -130 -144
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
IQ+TX -129 -132 Page 140 EME2014 proceedings
FT736 -127 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/eme2004/eme2004.htm
TS711E -126 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/ssa2004/ssa2004.htm
IC970H -122 -132
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC970H
TM255 -122 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_TM255
TS2000 -122 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/eme2004/eme2004.htm
IC7000 -122 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/ssa2007/ssa2007.htm
FT857 -120 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
FT100 -119 -129
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT100
IC746 -118 ? http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rs05/rs05.htm
IC706MKIIG -117 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC706MKIIG
FT817 -117 -130
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT817
FT847 -115 -130
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT847
IC910 -114 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
IC-821H -113 -128
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC821H
IC-706 -108 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC706
Note that the IQ+TX is number 5 from the top on this list of 20 commercial
transceivers. More importantly, most of the transceivers produce strong
splatter and keying clicks when modulated. I am pretty sure the IQ+ does not
have any such problems. The IQ+TX has a bandwidth limiting filter after the
D/A.
Alex claims that the IQ+TX outperforms by 10 dB most of the commercial
144 MHz transceivers. Correct would be to say that the IQ+TX outperforms by
10 dB about 50% of the commercial 144 MHz transceivers on sideband noise on
an unmodulated carrier and all of them in modulated modes.
Dear Matej, please rephrase what you wrote in such a way that people do not
get the opinion that I think like you on the bussines aspect of the
presentation Alex did at the meeting. The fact that the IQ+TX is one of the
better commercially available products does not (by far) make it good enough
for VHF contest operation in Central EU. We agree on that - but not on what
Alex presented which as far as I can judge was well motivated.
I would also appreciate a link to information about IF crystal filtering in
transverters. I would like to point people like ARRL Lab to that.
They have measured horrible performance on Flex products without giving the
appropriate information that those products have a serious design error. The
situation in the US is quite different. They do not have the needs for
dynamic range that we have in EU...
73
Leif
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:49:17 -0400
From: Les Listwa <lli...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Moon-Net] WA2ODO's New 144MHz Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra
Narrow BW Preamps
To: "moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com" <moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com>
Message-ID:
<CAHPSxDXiS40tveB6o9iFhRMva2CZjBZ1bY6TqE6tgPa4_yg=W...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi,
Since several folks have been asking me, so I thought I would pass this
along to all. I apologize for the wordiness and non-technical approach.
I recently purchased one of the first sets of Pete's new Dual Stage, High
OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW preamps to use with my IQ+. As the IQ+ ( 1st
version) wants to see 26db at its input, I purchased a set of 28.5 db
preamps to compensate for my systems losses. The units I tested were
conditionally stable, but I had no issues.
The ones I ordered also had Power Off Protection added, which included
relays ( Teledyne 712) that short the input and output to ground when DC is
removed from the Preamp, as I was having an issue when I was on the low
bands ( 80M , 20M and 14M) with RF sneaking into the preamp and blowing the
Preamp ( yes, I have added ferrites ). Of course, there is a small NF
penalty to pay for the relays, but over all the NF of the preamp, as
measured by Pete is under 0.15db ( give or take infinity ) which is still
damn good.
First off, the Power off Protection relays worked and I have not blown a
preamp, while operating a KW on the low bands with antennas less then 40
feet away from my EME array. I am still going to add a quarter wave
shorted stub, for additional protection.
The QTH is in a Suburb of New York City ( only 30 Miles away) with local
pagers and lots of Plasma TVs, florescent lights and LEDs nearby. So not
exactly a quiet environment and I usually need to be at a minimum of 15
degrees elevation before my noise level drops enough to beginning hearing
and optimally above 25 degrees. My trees dont help either.
By no means do I have the ability to perform scientific measurements, but
what I did do was make several A/B measurements between my previous set of
27.0 db preamps ( 0.15 db NF) and these new 28.5 db, High OIP3, Dual
Stage, Ultra Narrow BW preamps at various points in the sky, and then on the
moon over a several day period and was pleasantly surprised by what I saw.
Initially, I was disturbed, as both on my Linrad Screen and Map-65 I saw
my noise level drop by 2db on average. My first thought was maybe that
the gain out of these new preamps were actually lower. But then I noticed
that my local inband " birdies", had become more prominent on the Linrad
screen. A very unscientific method that confirms that the actual noise
level dropped rather then the gain.
Over the next few days, I played with the new preamps on the Moon, and
noise levels were almost consistently several db lower as shown by Map-65.
And while hard to determine if I was hearing any better then before due to
so many other factors, I did work several new Initials even with the high
dgrd . I am guessing that the very narrow bw and better output match
(higher oip3) is the reason for the lower noise,
Possibly related was that Map-65 was constantly decoding down to -27db
and on occasion down to -29 and -30db, although some say that is
impossible, but I have screen copies to prove it.
So all in all, WA2ODO's New Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW
Preamps at least for me seems to have made another incremental improvement
to my station, your mileage my vary.
In a related matter, I just want to point out again to those who continue
to claim that WSJT decodes better then Map-65, that most likely there is not
enough gain from their preamp to the IQ+. The IQ+ needs 26db at its
input while a standard transceiver will work fine at 18db or less. So if
you are using the IQ+ with say a common 24db preamp and have 2 db of
system losses, you are hitting the IQ+ with only 22db, even worse if you
are using a divider/splitter which adds an additional 3 db of loss, you are
now hitting the IQ+ with only 19db and its sensitivity will suffer and
therefore so will the Map-65 decodes suffer.
But on the other end of the divider which is attached to your transceiver (
running WSJT,) 19db gain is optimal for its sensitivity and WSJT will
therefore appear to out perform Map-65 So its not that WSJT decodes
better then Map-65, its that you dont have enough preamp gain to the SDR-IQ,
but more then enough to your transceiver.
I do know that several others will also be testing ODO's 144MHz Dual Stage,
High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW Preamps in the next few weeks and I hope they
share what they found.
Sorry, if this sounds like an infomercial.
73
Les
W2LPL/W2DBL
#14 .152dBnf /29.081dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $120
#15 .174dBnf /31.221dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $120
#16 .136dBnf /30.371dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $125
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:11:10 -0700
From: "Paul Chominski" <pcho...@san.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY
To: "'Ingolf, SM6FHZ'" <ingol...@gmail.com>
Cc: 'moon-net' <moon...@nlsa.com>
Message-ID: <0FD3E887AABE43D09A4C4E754486377E@Main1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Ingolf and All,
I will be QRV on 6cm during first day and on 9cm during second day. I might
switch to 13cm, but this takes about 45 min of my short window to EU.
I will be on 3 cm on both days.
GL 73 Paul WA6PY
_____
From: Ingolf, SM6FHZ [mailto:ingol...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:43 AM
To: Paul Chominski
Cc: moon-net
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY
Hi Paul and All,
I plan to be on 6cm only. Saturday UTC morning (~04Z to my moonset at ~07Z),
Saturday UTC evening (~1930Z to ~22Z), have some rest and get on Sunday UTC
morning (~04Z to my moonset at ~08Z). I can not be on Sunday UTC evening due
to QRL early Monday morning local time :-(
That is one window towards VK and JA and two windows towards the Americas.
That is if the Wx is cooperative, you can never know in October in Sweden,
it can be anything from just lovely to heavy rain and winds. We will see
what the forecast says when we get closer.
Good Luck in the contest to all. Hope to see you on 6cm!
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ
2014-09-27 17:19 GMT+02:00 Paul Chominski <pcho...@san.rr.com>:
Hi All,
I'm plannig to be QRV on 3 cm and in parallel one day on 6cm and another day
on 9 cm. Due to my short window I don't want to loose 1 hour for change band
setup on the dish.
Can we agree which day will be most of activity on those bands?
VY 73 Paul WA6PY
_______________________________________________
Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
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--
Ingolf, SM6FHZ
http://www.2ingandlin.se/SM6FHZ.htm
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:02:17 -0000
From: "Alex Artieda" <hb9...@emeham.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] HB9DRI Job to optimistic!!
To: <moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com>
Cc: moon...@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <001f01cfdcc7$e8e61870$bab24950$@emeham.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Friends
Leif refer page 140 from the proceeds, that was RC1 , the proceeds went to
printing before I finish the test of the latest IQ+XT RC2, during my
presentation i use data coming from the latest IQ+XT RC2 with this results:
Radio----noise@20Khz----noise @50KHz
IQ+XT(RC2)>>>> -128.0>>>>-133.0
TS-2000DX>>>>>-122.8>>>>>-130.8
FT-857D>>>>>>>119.7>>>>>-127.0
IC706MKIIG>>>-116.9>>>>>-123.0
FT817>>>>>>>-116.8>>>>>-126.0
FT817(2)>>>>>-115.9>>>>>-125.7
FT847>>>>>>>>-115.2>>>>>-123.4
IC821H>>>>>>-114.8>>>>>-122.5
IC910H>>>>>>--113.2>>>>>-121.5
Have a look how noisy are radios like FT-847, IC821 and IC910, Now I'm
testing RC3 with even much better results than RC2, I'm using now a new
extremely low noise Opamp on the audio stage after the D/A and this has good
impact on phase noise, more results later
All radios was tested on my WSE units with an unmodified DELTA44 follow 100%
Leif recommendations how to do the test, and the test was done the same day.
Comparing with Leif results my results confirm +/- some small variation, my
test was done properly. and additional 2 weeks ago i was able to test
another TS-2000DX and i confirm the IQ+ XT outperform the Kenwood TS-2000
radio by 3dB in side band noise, now my big conclusion is from what is
available now is much better use a IQ+XT than any other radio on the list I
tested and compared, you can use the IQ+XT in Central EU during contest,
will work much better than a lot traditional commercial radios and I'm sure
will work better than almost all SDR transmitters I put an extra effort to
filter properly the signal path after the D/A as a consequence Leif article
in Dubus in 2013 and this part delay my project 1 year until I was
convinced no distortion and noise are send to the air at long separations
like most of the SDR Transmitters do.
Is very dangerous when somebody like OK1TEH make hard conclusion in topics
he didn't manage in a professional way, he start his statement with:
_______________
OK1TEH wrote:
"....I'm not so familiar with SDR problematic..." and later he conclude
very hardly:
"....I'm a bit afraid that Alex didn't understand to all aspects of the QRO
resp. QRM issue (which is by the way very different between HF and VHF
because of different dynamic range) such as phase noise, etc. and if his new
SDR IQ+ XT will be used for real VHF contesting in mid EU region it would
create significant increase of QRM (everybody had similar problem with OL4A
and their SDR used for TX on 2m couple year ago)...
_______________
How somebody who declares doesn't understand the SDR problematic now become
a SDR critic and predict what could happen if you use a particular radio?
Misinformation?, Arrogance? Or Ignorance?, probably a little of everything.
Just because OL4A use a SDR transmitter and make interference this is enough
to conclude all SDR transmitters are bad? Such a mediocre and superficial
analysis!. Probably he needs to listen less his dad and do serious things
alone by himself without pre-conclude false statements without the properly
analysis and later spreading on the web as a fact
Our hobby unfortunate is fully of a priori conclusions; understanding for a
priori a fact that is assumed to be true prior to any empirical research, I
prefer the empiricisms where then a posteriori knowledge based on the
properly observations give you a better scientific approach
Just to be clear my friends; i think almost everybody knows me and follow my
projects, even if my radios has a brand and i had a homepage all this
project are far away to be a really commercial activity, IQ+ receivers are
undervalued at least 30%, i use 4 hours per day to do an online support
totally for free even for those who build their own IQ+ radios based on
softrocks and personal designs, even providing BPF or si570 oscillators or
Pulse generators at cost to calibrate NB Linrad, for those who cannot
access parts in small numbers even if this cost me money, for those with no
idea how to setup Linrad I will never risk all the well job done until now
with stupid design errors, for that reason my mentor and the most hardly
critic of my job inspire me to be better and better each time, thank you
Leif.
73 de Alex, HB9DRI
------------------------------
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This could be a never ending story, is not the first time we had this kind
of behaviors, especially for those who are desesperate for public
recognition...
OK1VPZ and OK1TEH publish a priori information regarding me and the IQ+XT
without understanding properly how a SDR works, the worst part is when they
try to validate their comments using the name of Leif SM5BSZ who already in
publish correct both guys and demonstrate how wrong their comments are, is
pathetic, anti-etic and demonstrate just "ignorance" when somebody try to
bias the information spread on the web using the well reputation of other
ones, this spoke about how low is the self-confidence of both guys about
what they know and what they did, my recommendation sincerely for you both
is take a self-confidence seminar and improve your social competence, not
everything need to be technical stuff, give yourself a chance to grow; then
probably both will understand what we are talking about here.
If somebody take care so much about "Serious contest in Central Europe" why
they still using a nasty FT847 radio, one of the worst radios in side band
noise, an clicks and pops???
The problematic about contesting in EU is not only noise transmitters, for
me existing two serious problems: the proximity of the stations and the
tremendous Illegal power the terrestrial stations are using, period... just
browse the internet, this people is so stupid even they claim in public the
amount of kilowatts they use, that is a really problem.
73 de Alex, HB9DRI
-----Original Message-----
From: moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com
[mailto:moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com] On Behalf Of Vladimír Petržílka
Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014 02:17
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Subject: [Moon-Net] Response to HB9DRI:
Dear all
Although my English is rather poor, I will try express here my short opinion
to Alex's quite arrogant message. Please take it as it is: I am not novice
on VHF and for sure not ignorant as he wrote. And even not some "no name"
stupid boy from the East as Alex thinking. I was always focused to the EMC
and particularly QRM issue in central EU contesting - already within last 30
years. Alex should to know, that we have produced in OK 30 years ago
transceivers with optimized sideband noise performance, which were better
from such view, than any on his list. And even I could put here for him a
question, why somebody, who doesn't understand the QRM problematic in VHF
contesting now become so critical to the personal opinion, what has written
on one private web page? And how many IARU VHF/UHF Contests he won? How many
QRO+ contest competitors he has again and again in 20km distance? Or...
No, I don't want to be as somebody is. It is below my dignity.
Let's look on the issue with cold head:
I wrote on our web page: "Due to my opinion Alex has little bit too much
business look on this matter and some of his specific technical conclusions
we found, let's say as a little bit too optimistic. Particularly VHF contest
operation in Central EU has it's own specific technical categories and
optimism are not in place."
Yes English is not good, but it is a clear expression. And still it is my
belief. Why?
Commercial transceivers performance is not good enough to fulfil needs of
QRO VHF contesting in central EU. Yes, K3 is a bit better, but still far
away not enough. We are running contests in very dense populated areas and
average distance between one to more QRO stations is about 25km. If you will
calculate, what will be the noise level from near competitor, even if the
best transceivers on both sites will be used, the noise level will be above
S9. So, some additional smart solution is needed to be able make some
valuable contest QSOs. Who has interest to know more about it, here is my
poor translation of presentation, written for Polish VHF meeting this year:
http://www.ok2kkw.com/zzz/qrm_w_zawodach_ok1vpz_en.pdf
However phase noise as well as the sideband noise (what difference in
between!) are not the only critical phenomena, which have significant
influence in the QRM issue. It could be very complex issue. Each theory is
grey, green tree of life! For example ingress from your own antenna may be
spreaded around and go back into bad screened exciter, running on low level.
And particularly into the oscillator, where the loop must suddenly correct
influence of high level of EM field into each active component. Commercial
transceiver, even the worst noisy legendary TS770 had very well screened LO
as well as all low signal level parts of transmitting chain. How looks the
mechanical solution of the "reverse SDR"? How good screening is used? And
what about the noise from supplying? And how looks the LC circuit of LO? As
high as possible Q of LC resonator circuitry is significant part of long way
to get low noise level from the LO. How high Q has LO in presented gadget?
And it is not the only one group of questions - what about DAC? What dynamic
range has the used DAC? How sensitive will be LO for vibrations? Any
vibrations - for example from the fan from near PC may have significant
influence to the LO phase noise performance. And next - what about
intermodulations? The LTC5598 IQ modulator has in datasheet max output level
for acceptable IMD less, than 3dBm. How bad will be the IMD in the presented
"reverse SDR", if the author declares output level + 20dBm. SSB is not a
FSK... I will not continue in more suspicions, why not to use it in
contesting and repeat only the expression, written in the report: "VHF
contest operation in Central EU has it's own specific technical categories
and optimism are not in place." Next time, when you will look forward to
participate in such hard core operation and you want to run QRO station, I
would say: please do not use this toy. It will be in your interest as well
as in the interest of all others up to 100km distance!
I have asked Alex to borrow me his product for testing, but he refused...
OK, maybe it really is so good as he declares. But based on his declaration
only I will not to buy it.
But anyway - it is nothing against Alex. He made an excellent job, not only
in IQ SDR for both polarizations antenna for EME, but as well as with his
experiments, which may help to designers find a way to a "new generation"
equipment, already usable in VHF contesting, hi. And present "reverse SDR"
may be for sure successfuly used in EME operation, where almost everything
(except PA) is very different compare to VHF contesting.
For final: experience and knowledge of all complex aspects in EMC creates
humbleness. And oposite - lack of it helps to intumescence of Ego only. And
such ego is not good advisor, believe me. We should be rather modest and
take all of such novelties with suspicion. And if it is really so good -
well any of us want to have real happy day time to time. Isn's it?.. :-)
Best 73 to all! Vlada OK1VPZ
BTW: I have participated on first EME tests in OK on 2m already on early
80-ties, if someone remember OK1KRA call. Later on I am rather in the back
of complete contesting team below OK2KKW and OK2A calls.
-----Original Message-----
From: moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com
[mailto:moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com] On Behalf Of
moon-net...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:02 PM
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Subject: Moon-net Digest, Vol 177, Issue 3
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Moon-net digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: EME Conference 2014 Pleumeur-Bodou (Leif Asbrink)
2. WA2ODO's New 144MHz Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW
Preamps (Les Listwa)
3. Re: ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY (Paul Chominski)
4. Re: HB9DRI Job to optimistic!! (Alex Artieda)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 15:56:01 +0200
From: Leif Asbrink <le...@sm5bsz.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] EME Conference 2014 Pleumeur-Bodou
To: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com, mo...@moonbounce.info,
moon...@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <20140930155601.aee6...@sm5bsz.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hello Matej,
I have read your page about the meeting:
> http://www.ok2kkw.com/00003016/eme2014/eme2014bodou_eng.htm
Unfortunately your text in unclear on a couple of points.
This is what you have published:
"I had the opportunity to had talk with a well-known Leif, SM5BSZ and I must
say that we liked it because both of us we agreed in opinions about some
technical lectures - for example some aspects of HB9DRI's presentation of
the usage of SDR for TX purposes.
Due to my opinion Alex has little bit too much business look on this matter
and some of his specific technical conclusions we found, let's say as a
little bit too optimistic. Particularly VHF contest operation in Central EU
has it's own specific technical categories and optimism are not in place.
Then we talked about the problems with VHF contests in Central Europe,
fighting with phase noise, IF crystal filtering in transverter and discussed
contesting on VHF during 70's of last century."
1) We both agree that commercially available ham transmitters do not have
the spectral purity required for VHF contest operation in Central EU, but I
do not agree with you that Alex has little bit too much business look on
this matter. You may have told me your opinion and I may not have told you I
do not agree. Facts speak for themselves, here is measured sideband noise
from a steady carrier on 144 MHz from unmodified transmitters:
Model Sideband noise Reference
20kHz 100kHz
(dBc/Hz) (dBc/Hz)
R2-CW -136 -139
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
TS780 -133 -140
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
TR9130 -132 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
IC275 -130 -144
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/annaboda/annaboda.htm
IQ+TX -129 -132 Page 140 EME2014 proceedings
FT736 -127 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/eme2004/eme2004.htm
TS711E -126 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/ssa2004/ssa2004.htm
IC970H -122 -132
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC970H
TM255 -122 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_TM255
TS2000 -122 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/eme2004/eme2004.htm
IC7000 -122 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/ssa2007/ssa2007.htm
FT857 -120 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
FT100 -119 -129
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT100
IC746 -118 ? http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rs05/rs05.htm
IC706MKIIG -117 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC706MKIIG
FT817 -117 -130
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT817
FT847 -115 -130
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_FT847
IC910 -114 ?
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/vhf2004/vhf2004.htm
IC-821H -113 -128
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC821H
IC-706 -108 -125
http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/rig_compare.htm#144_IC706
Note that the IQ+TX is number 5 from the top on this list of 20 commercial
transceivers. More importantly, most of the transceivers produce strong
splatter and keying clicks when modulated. I am pretty sure the IQ+ does not
have any such problems. The IQ+TX has a bandwidth limiting filter after the
D/A.
Alex claims that the IQ+TX outperforms by 10 dB most of the commercial
144 MHz transceivers. Correct would be to say that the IQ+TX outperforms by
10 dB about 50% of the commercial 144 MHz transceivers on sideband noise on
an unmodulated carrier and all of them in modulated modes.
Dear Matej, please rephrase what you wrote in such a way that people do not
get the opinion that I think like you on the bussines aspect of the
presentation Alex did at the meeting. The fact that the IQ+TX is one of the
better commercially available products does not (by far) make it good enough
for VHF contest operation in Central EU. We agree on that - but not on what
Alex presented which as far as I can judge was well motivated.
I would also appreciate a link to information about IF crystal filtering in
transverters. I would like to point people like ARRL Lab to that.
They have measured horrible performance on Flex products without giving the
appropriate information that those products have a serious design error. The
situation in the US is quite different. They do not have the needs for
dynamic range that we have in EU...
73
Leif
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:49:17 -0400
From: Les Listwa <lli...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Moon-Net] WA2ODO's New 144MHz Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra
Narrow BW Preamps
To: "moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com" <moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com>
Message-ID:
<CAHPSxDXiS40tveB6o9iFhRMva2CZjBZ1bY6TqE6tgPa4_yg=W...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi,
Since several folks have been asking me, so I thought I would pass this
along to all. I apologize for the wordiness and non-technical approach.
I recently purchased one of the first sets of Pete's new Dual Stage, High
OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW preamps to use with my IQ+. As the IQ+ ( 1st
version) wants to see 26db at its input, I purchased a set of 28.5 db
preamps to compensate for my systems losses. The units I tested were
conditionally stable, but I had no issues.
The ones I ordered also had Power Off Protection added, which included
relays ( Teledyne 712) that short the input and output to ground when DC is
removed from the Preamp, as I was having an issue when I was on the low
bands ( 80M , 20M and 14M) with RF sneaking into the preamp and blowing the
Preamp ( yes, I have added ferrites ). Of course, there is a small NF
penalty to pay for the relays, but over all the NF of the preamp, as
measured by Pete is under 0.15db ( give or take infinity ) which is still
damn good.
First off, the Power off Protection relays worked and I have not blown a
preamp, while operating a KW on the low bands with antennas less then 40
feet away from my EME array. I am still going to add a quarter wave
shorted stub, for additional protection.
The QTH is in a Suburb of New York City ( only 30 Miles away) with local
pagers and lots of Plasma TVs, florescent lights and LEDs nearby. So not
exactly a quiet environment and I usually need to be at a minimum of 15
degrees elevation before my noise level drops enough to beginning hearing
and optimally above 25 degrees. My trees dont help either.
By no means do I have the ability to perform scientific measurements, but
what I did do was make several A/B measurements between my previous set of
27.0 db preamps ( 0.15 db NF) and these new 28.5 db, High OIP3, Dual
Stage, Ultra Narrow BW preamps at various points in the sky, and then on the
moon over a several day period and was pleasantly surprised by what I saw.
Initially, I was disturbed, as both on my Linrad Screen and Map-65 I saw
my noise level drop by 2db on average. My first thought was maybe that
the gain out of these new preamps were actually lower. But then I noticed
that my local inband " birdies", had become more prominent on the Linrad
screen. A very unscientific method that confirms that the actual noise
level dropped rather then the gain.
Over the next few days, I played with the new preamps on the Moon, and
noise levels were almost consistently several db lower as shown by Map-65.
And while hard to determine if I was hearing any better then before due to
so many other factors, I did work several new Initials even with the high
dgrd . I am guessing that the very narrow bw and better output match
(higher oip3) is the reason for the lower noise,
Possibly related was that Map-65 was constantly decoding down to -27db
and on occasion down to -29 and -30db, although some say that is
impossible, but I have screen copies to prove it.
So all in all, WA2ODO's New Dual Stage, High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW
Preamps at least for me seems to have made another incremental improvement
to my station, your mileage my vary.
In a related matter, I just want to point out again to those who continue
to claim that WSJT decodes better then Map-65, that most likely there is not
enough gain from their preamp to the IQ+. The IQ+ needs 26db at its
input while a standard transceiver will work fine at 18db or less. So if
you are using the IQ+ with say a common 24db preamp and have 2 db of
system losses, you are hitting the IQ+ with only 22db, even worse if you
are using a divider/splitter which adds an additional 3 db of loss, you are
now hitting the IQ+ with only 19db and its sensitivity will suffer and
therefore so will the Map-65 decodes suffer.
But on the other end of the divider which is attached to your transceiver (
running WSJT,) 19db gain is optimal for its sensitivity and WSJT will
therefore appear to out perform Map-65 So its not that WSJT decodes
better then Map-65, its that you dont have enough preamp gain to the SDR-IQ,
but more then enough to your transceiver.
I do know that several others will also be testing ODO's 144MHz Dual Stage,
High OIP3, Ultra Narrow BW Preamps in the next few weeks and I hope they
share what they found.
Sorry, if this sounds like an infomercial.
73
Les
W2LPL/W2DBL
#14 .152dBnf /29.081dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $120
#15 .174dBnf /31.221dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $120
#16 .136dBnf /30.371dBg, N Conn, Dual Stage, Ultra Narrow BW $125
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:11:10 -0700
From: "Paul Chominski" <pcho...@san.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY
To: "'Ingolf, SM6FHZ'" <ingol...@gmail.com>
Cc: 'moon-net' <moon...@nlsa.com>
Message-ID: <0FD3E887AABE43D09A4C4E754486377E@Main1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Ingolf and All,
I will be QRV on 6cm during first day and on 9cm during second day. I might
switch to 13cm, but this takes about 45 min of my short window to EU.
I will be on 3 cm on both days.
GL 73 Paul WA6PY
_____
From: Ingolf, SM6FHZ [mailto:ingol...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:43 AM
To: Paul Chominski
Cc: moon-net
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] ARRL EME MW contest activity WA6PY
Hi Paul and All,
I plan to be on 6cm only. Saturday UTC morning (~04Z to my moonset at ~07Z),
Saturday UTC evening (~1930Z to ~22Z), have some rest and get on Sunday UTC
morning (~04Z to my moonset at ~08Z). I can not be on Sunday UTC evening due
to QRL early Monday morning local time :-(
That is one window towards VK and JA and two windows towards the Americas.
That is if the Wx is cooperative, you can never know in October in Sweden,
it can be anything from just lovely to heavy rain and winds. We will see
what the forecast says when we get closer.
Good Luck in the contest to all. Hope to see you on 6cm!
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ
2014-09-27 17:19 GMT+02:00 Paul Chominski <pcho...@san.rr.com>:
Hi All,
I'm plannig to be QRV on 3 cm and in parallel one day on 6cm and another day
on 9 cm. Due to my short window I don't want to loose 1 hour for change band
setup on the dish.
Can we agree which day will be most of activity on those bands?
VY 73 Paul WA6PY
_______________________________________________
Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
--
Ingolf, SM6FHZ
http://www.2ingandlin.se/SM6FHZ.htm
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:02:17 -0000
From: "Alex Artieda" <hb9...@emeham.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] HB9DRI Job to optimistic!!
To: <moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com>
Cc: moon...@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <001f01cfdcc7$e8e61870$bab24950$@emeham.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Friends
Leif refer page 140 from the proceeds, that was RC1 , the proceeds went to
printing before I finish the test of the latest IQ+XT RC2, during my
presentation i use data coming from the latest IQ+XT RC2 with this results:
Radio----noise@20Khz----noise @50KHz
IQ+XT(RC2)>>>> -128.0>>>>-133.0
TS-2000DX>>>>>-122.8>>>>>-130.8
FT-857D>>>>>>>119.7>>>>>-127.0
IC706MKIIG>>>-116.9>>>>>-123.0
FT817>>>>>>>-116.8>>>>>-126.0
FT817(2)>>>>>-115.9>>>>>-125.7
FT847>>>>>>>>-115.2>>>>>-123.4
IC821H>>>>>>-114.8>>>>>-122.5
IC910H>>>>>>--113.2>>>>>-121.5
Have a look how noisy are radios like FT-847, IC821 and IC910, Now I'm
testing RC3 with even much better results than RC2, I'm using now a new
extremely low noise Opamp on the audio stage after the D/A and this has good
impact on phase noise, more results later
All radios was tested on my WSE units with an unmodified DELTA44 follow 100%
Leif recommendations how to do the test, and the test was done the same day.
Comparing with Leif results my results confirm +/- some small variation, my
test was done properly. and additional 2 weeks ago i was able to test
another TS-2000DX and i confirm the IQ+ XT outperform the Kenwood TS-2000
radio by 3dB in side band noise, now my big conclusion is from what is
available now is much better use a IQ+XT than any other radio on the list I
tested and compared, you can use the IQ+XT in Central EU during contest,
will work much better than a lot traditional commercial radios and I'm sure
will work better than almost all SDR transmitters I put an extra effort to
filter properly the signal path after the D/A as a consequence Leif article
in Dubus in 2013 and this part delay my project 1 year until I was
convinced no distortion and noise are send to the air at long separations
like most of the SDR Transmitters do.
Is very dangerous when somebody like OK1TEH make hard conclusion in topics
he didn't manage in a professional way, he start his statement with:
_______________
OK1TEH wrote:
"....I'm not so familiar with SDR problematic..." and later he conclude
very hardly:
"....I'm a bit afraid that Alex didn't understand to all aspects of the QRO
resp. QRM issue (which is by the way very different between HF and VHF
because of different dynamic range) such as phase noise, etc. and if his new
SDR IQ+ XT will be used for real VHF contesting in mid EU region it would
create significant increase of QRM (everybody had similar problem with OL4A
and their SDR used for TX on 2m couple year ago)...
_______________
How somebody who declares doesn't understand the SDR problematic now become
a SDR critic and predict what could happen if you use a particular radio?
Misinformation?, Arrogance? Or Ignorance?, probably a little of everything.
Just because OL4A use a SDR transmitter and make interference this is enough
to conclude all SDR transmitters are bad? Such a mediocre and superficial
analysis!. Probably he needs to listen less his dad and do serious things
alone by himself without pre-conclude false statements without the properly
analysis and later spreading on the web as a fact
Our hobby unfortunate is fully of a priori conclusions; understanding for a
priori a fact that is assumed to be true prior to any empirical research, I
prefer the empiricisms where then a posteriori knowledge based on the
properly observations give you a better scientific approach
Just to be clear my friends; i think almost everybody knows me and follow my
projects, even if my radios has a brand and i had a homepage all this
project are far away to be a really commercial activity, IQ+ receivers are
undervalued at least 30%, i use 4 hours per day to do an online support
totally for free even for those who build their own IQ+ radios based on
softrocks and personal designs, even providing BPF or si570 oscillators or
Pulse generators at cost to calibrate NB Linrad, for those who cannot
access parts in small numbers even if this cost me money, for those with no
idea how to setup Linrad I will never risk all the well job done until now
with stupid design errors, for that reason my mentor and the most hardly
critic of my job inspire me to be better and better each time, thank you
Leif.
73 de Alex, HB9DRI
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
End of Moon-net Digest, Vol 177, Issue 3
****************************************
-----
Zprava neobsahuje viry.
Zkontrolovano AVG - www.avg.cz
Verze: 2014.0.4765 / Virova baze: 4025/8300 - Datum vydani: 30.9.2014
_______________________________________________
Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
Alex Artieda
Oct 1, 2014, 7:39:40 AM10/1/14
to ok1teh Petrzilka, moon...@googlegroups.com, lin...@googlegroups.com, moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Dear Matej
You still without understand was disturb me and why I don't agree with you and Vlad.
Both publish in a report a personal point of view about ME and the IQ+XT without crossing one single word with me, you and Vlad make a priori opinions, that's ok in philosophy but not in our hobby where more facts count and worst both try to use the public reputation of Leif SM5BSZ to validate your comments, this attitude is CHEATING, nothing else.
Leif already answer in public his disagree with you and Vlad, and this is a big slap on both due your dishonest behavior, if showing your dishonest behavior is crude, hard and you think is and attack, YOU ARE RIGHT, the only way to dismantle dishonest people is go straight forward and show the offenders in a crude way, if you don't like, sorry , this is something you need to consider next time you expose yourself in public with dishonest manners, this is a fact and you cannot change, period, now you accuse me to be arrogant, big ego, bla bla bla. May be is reverse, next time before write a report think what you are writing and the possible consequences of your wrong statements.
The day you and Vlad will do really something for the EME community you will understand my position, before of that impossible!! Remain in the ignorance is just your option.
By the way my ego sends to you and Vlad very nice greetings. :) :)
For me this topic is close.
73 de Alex, HB9DRI
From: ok1teh Petrzilka [mailto:ok1...@seznam.cz]
Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014 10:27
To: hb9...@emeham.com
Cc: moon...@googlegroups.com; lin...@googlegroups.com; moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Subject: Re: [Moon-net GG] RE: [Moon-Net] Response to HB9DRI:
Dear Friends,
as you know I've never told that HB9DRI is stupid, or any rude word
or that his SDR is a crap, I just expressed in my report personal fear
about the usage of IQ+TX for serious VHF contesting in Middle Europe.
I believe that everybody has right to express his opinion in polite way,
this is called democracy by the way. My report from EME meeting
was expressing my personal feelings, opionions and wasn't any official
report at all, I've never written that everybody must agree with me...
Well, I'm always ready for polite discussion but I must say I really
wasn't expected such a rude and arogant attacts to me.......
While I was writing my response to Alex's rude text, Vladimir OK1VPZ
wrote his fully explanation about the technical matters. Since then and after
next DRI's (full of hate) response I don't see any relevant reason to continue
in this topic.. By the way my report from the EME conference was large
and it wasn't easy to make it for me because of lack of free time.
I'll consider if I write something else from next EME Conference at all..
Enjoy Alex your big ego & have a nice day...
73
Matej, OK1TEH
PS: during upcoming weekend my club OK2KKW (as OK2A) will be active
in IARU R1 UHF Contest with our usual rig IC7600+ DB6NT transverter
+ QRO on 70cm and we'll be qrv on higher bands too. I'm 23cm' operator
so hope to work some of you.. More info at http://www.darkside.cz/qrv.php
---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Alex Artieda <hb9...@emeham.com>
Komu: moon...@mailman.pe1itr.com
Datum: 1. 10. 2014 8:45:56
Předmět: [Moon-net GG] RE: [Moon-Net] Response to HB9DRI:
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