2007年11月16日沙特19岁少女遭轮奸被判鞭刑200记监禁半年

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伊斯兰的现状沙特19岁少女遭轮奸被判鞭刑200记监禁半年 http://is.gd/f4CQM >@Edourdoo 貌似当今的穆斯林温和派已经完全没有市场了18 minutes ago
Al-Lahim 令人尊敬的穆斯林人权律师 http://3.ly/ED5x 沙特女人被强奸反遭酷刑 http://3.ly/r4v6 @Edourdoo@l5d 13 minutes ago via web

伊斯兰进步势力遭受残酷迫害 http://3.ly/sW6h 律师指出了法庭违背法律的许多问题。但是当律师向媒体公开这些违法问题后，这位反对恐怖主义的穆斯林被立刻判处 3 年 4 个月监禁，并鞭刑 750 次示众，每个星期 50 次。也就是连续 15 个星期，近 4 个月！less than 10 seconds

http://news.sohu.com/20071116/n253297011.shtml
沙特19岁少女遭轮奸被判鞭刑200记监禁半年
2007年11月16日14:30 [我来说两句(597)]

来源：中国网
　　据法新社报道，沙特阿拉伯一名19岁的少女在遭到6名歹徒轮奸之后，近日反而被以保守著称的沙特法庭处以200记鞭刑和6个月监禁。

　　在初审中，这名女孩被处以90记鞭刑，法庭的判决理由为“当强奸发生时，这名女孩与无关的男性共处一辆汽车中”。

不过，在经过沙特阿拉伯高等司法委员会重新判决后，鞭刑的数量增至200。消息人士称，量刑加重的原因是“这名女孩试图通过媒体影响司法”。
　　沙特阿拉伯先行法律禁止无关的男性和女性相互之间发生任何关系，并且禁止女性驾驶汽车等。去年，法庭分别判处这6名涉嫌强奸的男性1年至5年的监禁，同时要求对受害者施行鞭刑。随后受害女孩的律师拉曼-拉赫姆提起上诉，称对犯罪者的处罚太仁慈。对于涉嫌强奸的罪犯，根据沙特法律通常会被处以死刑。在本周三进行的最新判决中，这六名罪犯被处以2年至6年的监禁。由于受害女孩属于沙特少数的什叶派，而罪犯属于逊尼派，因此这一判决引发了沙特什叶派团体的愤怒。

　　受害女子的律师拉赫姆在接受媒体采访时表示，法庭禁止他接手这起强奸案，并且由于对法庭判决不服而被吊销律师执照。此外，他还被司法部传唤，要求他于 12月出席纪律委员会的聆讯。拉赫姆表示，司法部此举可能是由于他批评了某些司法机构，并且与“阿卜杜拉国王要求改革，尤其是司法系统改革的要求相抵触”。沙特国王阿卜杜拉上月批准了一个新的法律实体来管理全国的司法体系。

　　强奸在伊斯兰教中被视为不可饶恕的重罪。沙特阿拉伯、伊朗等国通常将强奸犯处以极刑。但是，对遭遇强暴的女性，却往往因为教义受到了额外的伤害。 2005，一名伊朗女孩因为反抗强奸杀死凶手被法庭判处绞刑，后在加拿大籍世界小姐娜扎宁·阿富辛－杰姆的努力下获释。而更多的女性则是因为遭遇强奸，给自己的家族的荣誉带来“玷污”而被家族亲人杀死，这在伊斯兰国家称之为“荣誉谋杀”。根据联合国的统计，全世界每年至少有5000名妇女死于亲属的“荣誉谋杀”，过去5年里仅巴基斯坦有文字纪录的“荣誉谋杀”就有5000多起。（钟龙）

(责任编辑：廖恒)

http://epochtimes.com/gb/7/11/22/n1909550.htm

沙乌地阿拉伯一名妇女遭到轮暴，法院却判她六个月徒刑与鞭刑两百下，本案受到广泛报导，让沙国政府处境尴尬。(图:法新社)
沙国妇女遭轮暴法院竟判鞭刑各界哗然
【大纪元11月22日报导】（中央社利雅德二十一日法新电）沙特阿拉伯一名妇女遭到轮暴，法院却判她六个月徒刑与鞭刑两百下，这名妇女已矢言提起上诉，本案受到广泛报导，让沙国政府处境尴尬。
这名年轻妇女的律师拉汉说，此案“总归一句，代表了沙国司法制度面临的严重问题”。

回教圣城麦加所在地沙国适用一套严格的逊尼派回教教规：称为“瓦哈比主义”，严格规定性别隔离，并针对女性施行一套限制，例如女性不可与亲属以外男性相处，在公开场合也必须从头到脚包裹住。

这名十九岁的女孩身分并未曝光，因为她来自东方省什叶派信徒居住的卡提夫区，因此外界称她为“卡提夫女孩”。

这名女孩去年十月遭到性侵后，她因与一名非亲属的男性同处一车内，遭到法院判处鞭刑九十下。

高等司法会议后来裁定发回重审，法院本月十四日加重判刑为六个月徒刑，并处鞭刑两百下。

法院消息人士告诉英语日报“阿拉伯新闻”说，法官决定加重判刑，是因为“她企图透过媒体刺激并影响司法”。

法庭认为，这名当时年十八岁的女孩有罪，因为她和一名陌生男子在一起，后者持有她的照片，而她显然想把照片要回来。

据报导，两人都遭到七名男子挟持和性侵。

美国总统参选人参议员希拉蕊今天谴责沙国法院的判刑，并称这是“暴行”，她并抨击白宫对此事的回应。希拉蕊发布声明说：“这是暴行。”

希拉蕊并指责布什政府以这是沙国内部判决为由，拒绝呼吁沙国撤销判刑。

希拉蕊说：“我呼吁布什总统，请求阿布杜拉国王取消判决，撤销所有对这名妇女的指控。我若出任总统，将再度将人权列为美国的全球优先政策。”

美国国务院昨天对于判决表示“惊讶”，但并未呼吁沙国改变判决。

11/22/2007 1:04:42 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_girl_rape_case

Qatif girl rape case

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "Qatif Girl" Rape Case (Arabic: قضية اغتصاب فتاة القطيف‎) is a much-publicized gang-rape case. The victim was a teenage girl from Qatif (Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia), who, along with her male companion, was kidnapped and gang-raped by seven Saudi men in mid-2006. A Saudi Sharia court sentenced the perpetrators to varying sentences involving 80 to 1,000 lashes and imprisonment up to ten years for four of them. The court also sentenced the two victims to six months in prison and 90 lashes each for "being alone with a man who is not a relative" in a parked car. The appeals court doubled the victims' sentences in late 2007 as punishment for the heavy media coverage of the event in the international press regarding the treatment of women in the KSA and Saudi judicial practices. In December 2007 the Saudi King Abdullah issued an official pardon for the two victims, citing his ultimate authority to revise "discretionary" punishments in accordance with the public good, although the pardon did not reflect any lack of confidence in the Saudi justice system or in the fairness of the verdicts.

[hide]

[edit]Background

In an ABC news interview, the girl said "I [was] 19 years old. I had a relationship with someone on the phone. We were both 16. I had never seen him before. I just knew his voice. He started to threaten me, and I got afraid. He threatened to tell my family about the relationship. Because of the threats and fear, I agreed to give him a photo of myself," she recounted.

"A few months [later], I asked him for the photo back but he refused. I had gotten married to another man. He said, 'I'll give you the photo on the condition that you come out with me in my car.' I told him we could meet at a souk [market] near my neighborhood city plaza in Qatif.

"He started to drive me home. We were 15 minutes from my house. I told him that I was afraid and that he should speed up. We were about to turn the corner to my house when they [another car] stopped right in front of our car. Two people got out of their car and stood on either side of our car. The man on my side had a knife. They tried to open our door. I told the individual with me not to open the door, but he did. He let them come in. I screamed.

"One of the men brought a knife to my throat. They told me not to speak. They pushed us to the back of the car and started driving. We drove a lot, but I didn't see anything since my head was forced down."^[1]

The teen victim provided more details in interviews published in Arabic with the Human Rights Watch and an Associated Press reporter, Farida Deif, who met her in a face-to-face interview. The interviews were published in the Arabic Saiydati magazine and MSNBC:^[2]

"I knew him when I was ten, but I only knew him through telephone conversations, his voice was all I knew about him. He then threatened to tell my family about it if I didn’t give him a picture of myself. Months later I asked him to give it back since I got engaged to be married, so we agreed to meet near the City Plaza mall located fifteen minutes away from my house. When we were heading back, a car stopped right in front of his and two men carrying knives came out. I told him not to unlock the doors but he did, and I started screaming. They drove for a long time while we were forced to keep our heads down. When we arrived I noticed a lot of palm trees. They took me out to a dark area and forced me to take off my clothes. The first man with the knife raped me. He destroyed me. I thought about running away but where could I go to looking like this? Another man came in and did the same. I was about to faint. For more than two hours I asked them to leave me alone, I begged them. The third man was violent and the fourth almost strangled me. The fifth and sixth were even more brutal. When the seventh man finished I couldn't feel myself anymore. He was so fat I couldn't breathe. Then they all did it again. When they dropped me home I couldn't walk, my mom opened the door and said I looked sick. I couldn't tell anyone and for a whole week I couldn't eat, but later I went to the hospital."^[3]^[4]

In other interviews, more of the victims' relatives spoke up about how the assailants used pictures they took of them during the rape and they taunted her about the phone numbers they got from her cell phone and threatened her and her family. Parts of these interviews were published in Saiydati magazine.

[edit]The court's findings and verdicts

[edit]First verdict

Four months after the assault, the victim and her husband, along with their lawyer, decided to bring the case to court. A trial date was set in October 2006 and she was sentenced to 90 lashes for "being alone with a man who is not a relative," which is considered an offense in the strict Wahhabi jurisprudence. It is widely condemned that Saudi law literally depends onSharia laws since judges' interpretations of it are not based on any written legal code. Each judge interprets it in his own way.^[5]

[edit]Appeal

After the appeal, the Supreme Judicial Council granted a retrial. The second court rulings made headlines in Saudi Arabia and around the world, although it occurred during a time of important local and regional events. Foreign delegates attending the historical Third OPEC Summit in Riyadh found it a topic of interest that wasn’t quite listed on the summit's program, while news about the Lebanese presidential elections and Iranian President Ahmadinejad came in second as a priority for the media.^[6] Ironically, the controversial ruling against the female victim came out very near to the day the world celebrated the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. On November 13, 2007, the Qatif court sentenced the female rape victim to six months in jail and 200 lashes. The Saudi Justice Ministry itself officially stated that the woman's sentence was increased to 200 lashes and six months in jail because she apparently admitted to having an extramarital affair with the man with whom she was when the rape occurred. Adultery is a crime in Saudi Arabia, so for committing adultery and for lying to the police about the circumstances of the rape, her sentence was increased. "The Saudi justice minister expressed his regret about the media reports over the role of the woman in this case which put out false information and wrongly defend her."[2]

The sentences of the seven men found guilty of abducting and repeatedly raping the young woman and her male companion were also increased to between two and nine years each.^[7]The assailants' penalty was not any less surprising than the victim's, for in Saudi Arabia, the penalty of death is expected for convicted rapists. The Ministry of Justice stated that this never happened due to "lack of witnesses" and the "absence of confessions."

[edit]Removing the victim’s lawyer

Among other sources of news, The Guardian reported on November 17, 2007 that:

"the victim's lawyer Al-Lahem's critics have called him an infidel and 'lawyer of homosexuals'. In the past he has been jailed and banned from traveling abroad."^[8]^[9]

Abdulrahman al-Lahem, a well-known human rights activist, who has represented his clients in many controversial and sensitive trials in the past,^[10] was accused by the judges of being "disruptive to the court," "disrespectful," and "showing ignorance of the court procedures," and so had his license suspended.

He was ordered to appear before a disciplinary committee at the Ministry of Justice on December 5, 2007, charged with criticizing the judiciary and publicly campaigning in the media.^[10]

Human rights organization Amnesty International, as well as the Middle East and North Africa Programme, criticized the persecution of al-Lahem.^[11]

Lawyer Khaled Al-Mutairi represented al-Lahem at a closed-door hearing in front of a disciplinary committee at the Justice Ministry in Riyadh before a three-member panel consisting of two judges and a lawyer. The hearing was postponed to an unspecified date and on January 19, 2008, al-Lahem's law license was returned to him (confiscated on November 14, 2007), although risk of the case being resumed remains. Al-Lahem declined to comment.^[12]

[edit]Media Attention

In a special report, the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation channel covered the case in a show widely anticipated by many Saudi audiences.^[13] The show aired a live debate between al-Lahem and Ministry of Justice consultant and former judge Abdul-Mohsen Al-Obaikan.^[14] The victim’s husband participated via phone. The husband defended his wife in a surprising showing of open-mindedness for a man from this part of the world, where rape victims and their families are almost always silent. He explained: "I'm not lacking in manhood or an Arab man's honor for defending a so-called 'cheating wife'," then added, "I feel that in this catastrophe she exercised bad judgment by meeting this man, but how can you [Al-Obaikan] or anyone say she committed adultery?"^[15] In other interviews he showed further support of his wife and said that "she shocked him when she insisted on pursuing justice although she is facing a harsh penalty." He also expressed his worries over her deteriorating physical and mental health.

By late November 2007, she was under effective house arrest and forbidden to speak at the risk of being taken into custody at any time. Her family's movements were being monitored by the religious police and their telephones were tapped.^[16]

[edit]Royal pardon

On December 17, 2007, Saudi newspapers reported that King Abdullah had issued a pardon for the girl, citing his ultimate authority as monarch to overrule "discretionary" punishments (punishments not expressly prescribed by Islamic legal canon) in accordance with the public good. However, he maintained that the pardon did not reflect any lack of confidence in the Saudi justice system or the initial verdicts, and in fact the King trusted "that the verdicts are just and fair."^[17]

Although the pardon was good news for the girl from Qatif, human rights activists voiced concern that it was not a practical solution to the problem, as "the pardon means that she did something wrong and was kindly pardoned later." They called for reform of the law and clear legislation that differentiates between rape and adultery, as there are many similar cases which do not receive such international exposure and not every victim will get a royal pardon afterward.^[18]

[edit]Public Response

Human Rights Watch - Human Rights Watch called on Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz to immediately void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer.^[19]
Then Sen. Hillary Clinton - "The latest example is the punishment of 200 lashes that a Saudi Arabian court has given to a victim - the victim - of a gang rape. This is an outrage." Clinton said in a statement.^[20]
Then Sen. Barack Obama - "That the victim was sentenced at all is unjust, but that the court doubled the sentence because of efforts to call attention to the ruling is beyond unjust, I strongly urge the Department of State to condemn this ruling." Obama wrote in a letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.^[21]
Saudi Foreign Minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal - During The Annapolis Peace Summit, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal expressed his opinion to reporters that he hopes the sentence would be revised, adding that "the ruling was used to vilify his government even though it was not responsible because courts are independent".^[22] "and the disturbing thing is that such usage of individual acts are meant to insult the Saudi people and the Saudi government."^[23]
The Saudi Ministry of Justice's official statement - In an unprecedented step and a rather historic reaction from a governmental body in Saudi Arabia, the Ministry of Justice has issued a statement on the 24th of November 2007 through the official Saudi Press Agency "welcoming objective criticism that benefits the general good, away from emotional responses."^[24]^[25]^[26]^[27]
Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Adel al-Jubeir - In a statement that was sent to CNN, Mr. Al-Jubeir stated that "justice will prevail."^[28]
The U.S. State Department - "The State Department voiced "astonishment" at the sentence, but stopped short of calling for it to be changed".^[20]

[edit]See also

Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

[edit]References

[edit]External links

[edit]A Response in Defense of the Saudi Judges

Saudi: Why we punished rape victim. In CNN November 20, 2007
An Islamic Defense of the Saudi Ruling
The Qatif Woman's case and the Saudi Judgment
Explanatory Statement by the Ministry of Justice about Qatif Girl 21/11/2007

[edit]Other

Faraz Omar: The Qatif Woman’s case and the Saudi Judgment In iNarrators 26 November 2007
Saudi FM Faults Rape Ruling. In IslamOnline Nov. 27, 2007

Categories: Law enforcement in Saudi Arabia | History of Saudi Arabia | Rape

This page was last modified on 27 August 2010 at 22:07.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out

Saudi Arabia: Rape Victim Punished for Speaking Out

Court Doubles Sentence for Victim, Bans Her Lawyer From the Case

NOVEMBER 15, 2007

RELATED MATERIALS:

Saudi Arabia: Lift Gag-Order on Rights Campaigner

This verdict not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators.

Farida Deif, researcher in the women’s rights division of Human Rights Watch

A court in Saudi Arabia doubled its sentence of lashings for a rape victim who had spoken out in public about her case and her efforts to seek justice, Human Rights Watch said today. The court also harassed her lawyer, banning him from the case and confiscating his professional license.

An official at the General Court of Qatif, which handed down the sentence on November 14, said the court had increased the woman’s sentence because of “her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media.” The court sentenced the rape victim to six months in prison and 200 lashes, more than double its October 2006 sentence after its earlier verdict was reviewed by Saudi Arabia’s highest court, the Supreme Council of the Judiciary.

Human Rights Watch called on King Abdullah to immediately void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer.

“A courageous young woman faces lashing and prison for speaking out about her efforts to find justice,” said Farida Deif, researcher in the women’s rights division of Human Rights Watch. “This verdict not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators.”

The young woman, who is married, said she had met with a male acquaintance who had promised to give her back an old photograph of herself. After she met her acquaintance in his car in Qatif, a gang of seven men then attacked and raped both of them, multiple times. Despite the prosecution’s requests for the maximum penalty for the rapists, the Qatif court sentenced four of them to between one and five years in prison and between 80 and 1,000 lashes. They were convicted of kidnapping, apparently because prosecutors could not prove rape. The judges reportedly ignored evidence from a mobile phone video in which the attackers recorded the assault.

Moreover, the court in October 2006 also sentenced both the woman and man who had been raped to 90 lashes each for what it termed “illegal mingling.” Human Rights Watch is particularly concerned that the criminalization of any contact between unmarried individuals of the opposite sex in Saudi Arabia severely impedes the ability of rape victims to seek justice. A court may view a woman’s charge of rape as an admission of extramarital sexual relations (or “illegal mingling”) unless she can prove, by strict evidentiary standards, that this contact was legal and the intercourse was nonconsensual.

In an interview in December, the rape victim described to Human Rights Watch her treatment in court:

“At the first session, [the judges] said to me, ‘what kind of relationship did you have with this individual? Why did you leave the house? Do you know these men?’ They asked me to describe the situation. They used to yell at me. They were insulting. The judge refused to allow my husband in the room with me. One judge told me I was a liar because I didn’t remember the dates well. They kept saying, ‘Why did you leave the house? Why didn’t you tell your husband [where you were going]?’”

“Victims of sexual violence in Saudi Arabia face enormous obstacles in the criminal justice system,” said Deif. “Their interrogations and court hearings are more likely to compound the trauma of the original assault than provide justice.”

During the recent hearings, Judge al-Muhanna of the Qatif court also banned the woman’s lawyer, Abd al-Rahman al-Lahim, from the courtroom and from any future representations of her, without apparent reason. He also confiscated his lawyer’s identification card, which the Ministry of Justice issues. Al-Lahim faces a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice on December 5, where sanctions can include suspension for three years and disbarment.

Al-Lahim, who is Saudi Arabia’s best-known human rights lawyer, earlier this year had planned to take legal action against the Ministry of Justice for failing to provide him with a copy of the verdict against his client so that he could prepare an appeal. Despite numerous representations to the court and the ministry, he was not given a copy of the case file or the verdict.

“The decision to ban the rape victim’s lawyer from the case shows what little respect Saudi authorities have for the legal profession or the law in general,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch.

On October 3, King Abdullah announced a judicial reform, promising new specialized courts and training for judges and lawyers. There is currently no rule of law in Saudi Arabia, which does not have a written penal code. Judges do not follow procedural rules and issue arbitrary sentences that vary widely. Often, judges do not provide written verdicts, even in death penalty cases. Judges sometimes deny individuals their right to legal representation. In May 2006, a judge in Jeddah had thrown a lawyer out of his courtroom in a civil suit on the sole basis that he is of the Isma’ili faith, a branch of Shiism. Trials remain closed to the public.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.lawyer/index.html
November 21, 2007 -- Updated 0352 GMT (1152 HKT)
Saudi rape victim's lawyer: Case may change judicial system
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Attorney: What we're going through will lead to a more modern judicial system
Saudi Justice Ministry: Lawyer showed disrespectful behavior toward the court
Woman convicted of violating law by not having a male guardian with her
Court more than doubled woman's original sentence to 200 lashes

(CNN) -- The lawyer representing a Saudi rape victim whose treatment has drawn worldwide criticism predicted Wednesday the controversy may help reform the Saudi judicial system.

Human rights groups want Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to drop charges against the rape victim.

"I believe the kingdom is going through a reformist period and I believe what we're going through will lead to a more modern judicial system that all citizens can enjoy," Abdulrahman al-Lahim told Octavia Nasr, CNN's senior Arab affairs editor, in a telephone interview.

"I'm confident that this line of thought will vanish one day, and indeed the country will be reborn."

In March 2006, when his client was 18 and engaged to be married, she and an unrelated man were abducted from a mall in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, and she was raped by seven men.

In October, the men were convicted and sentenced to two to nine years in prison.

But the rape victim was also convicted -- for violating the kingdom's Islamic law by not having a male guardian with her at the mall.

The man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day, Al-Lahim said. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.

The woman was sentenced to 90 lashes and -- when she appealed -- the sentence was more than doubled to 200 lashes and six months in prison.

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Her lawyer accused the head judge in the three-judge panel of having been against his client from the beginning, and he criticized the judge's position that the victim and the rapists appear in the same courtroom.

"Based on my humanistic and professional ethics, I strongly rejected that stance," al-Lahim said. "How can she stand next to these people while suffering further emotional and physical harm? The judge took my objection personally and raised the issue to the Ministry of Justice to revoke my license."

Al-Lahim said he feels the Saudi government is penalizing him for trying to help the woman get justice, including failing to reinstate his law license.

He said it was revoked last week by a judge in the Qatif General Court seeking to punish him for speaking to the Saudi-controlled news media about the incident and other controversial cases.

"I think that they want to take revenge," he said. "I don't understand the sensitivity about media attention. By Saudi law, court sessions should be open to the public."

The judges may have increased his client's original sentence because she hired him, "a controversial lawyer," Al-Lahim said.

Al-Lahim vowed to "fight till the end" to get back his license, "to work again, and help create a new generation of lawyers that will continue on this path." Watch al-Lahim say being a lawyer is a dream for him »

The case has provoked outrage in the West and has cast light on the treatment of women under Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law.

The Saudi Justice Ministry -- apparently stung by international media scrutiny -- issued a "clarification" Tuesday.

It acknowledged that al-Lahim is no longer on the case, saying he was punished by a disciplinary committee for lawyers because he "exhibited disrespectful behavior toward the court, objected to the rule of law and showed ignorance concerning court instructions and regulations."

The ministry also said it welcomed constructive criticism and said the parties' rights were preserved in the judicial process.

"We would like to state that the system has ensured them the right to object to the ruling and to request an appeal, without resorting to sensationalism through the media that may not be fair or may not grant anyone any rights, and instead may negatively affect all the other parties involved in the case," the statement said.

The case was handled through normal court procedures, and the woman, her male companion and the rapists all agreed in court to the sentences meted out, the statement said.

Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery.

Still, the government's handling of the matter has sparked anger among human rights groups.

"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.

The woman and the man were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim.

Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was seeking to retrieve was innocuous.

Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing next month at the Ministry of Justice, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.

CNN's Saad Abedine, Octavia Nasr and Mohammed Jamjoom contributed to this report.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/20/saudi.rape.victim/index.html
Saudi: Why we punished rape victim
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: "Justice will prevail" at end of legal process, says Saudi ambassador to U.S.
Justice Ministry acknowledges woman's lawyer is no longer on the case
Court more than doubled woman's original sentence of 90 lashes to 200
U.S. State Department spokesman: U.S. officials "expressed our astonishment"

(CNN) -- The Saudi Justice Ministry Tuesday issued a "clarification" of a court's handling of a rape case and the increased punishment -- including 200 lashes --meted out to the victim.

The case, which has sparked media scrutiny of the Saudi legal system, centers on a married woman. The 19-year-old and an unrelated man were abducted, and she was raped by a group of seven men more than a year ago, according to Abdulrahman al-Lahim, the attorney who represented her in court.

The woman was originally sentenced in October 2006 to 90 lashes. But that sentence was more than doubled to 200 lashes and six months in prison by the Qatif General Court, because she spoke to the media about the case, a court source told Middle Eastern daily newspaper Arab News.

Al-Lahim told CNN his law license was revoked last week by a judge because he spoke to the Saudi-controlled media about the case. Watch the emotional toll the crime took on the rape victim »

In a statement issued to CNN, Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Adel al-Jubeir said, "This case is working its way through the legal process. I have no doubt that justice will prevail."

The Justice Ministry acknowledged in its statement Tuesday that the attorney is no longer on the case, saying he was punished by a disciplinary committee for lawyers because he "exhibited disrespectful behavior toward the court, objected to the rule of law and showed ignorance concerning court instructions and regulations."

It added that the permanent committee of the Supreme Judicial Council recommended an increased sentence for the woman after further evidence against her came to light when she appealed her original sentence.

The judges of that committee also increased the sentences for the perpetrators based on the level of their involvement in the crime. Their sentences -- which had been two to three years in prison -- were increased to two to nine years, according to al-Lahim.

The ministry also said it welcomes constructive criticism and insisted that the parties' rights were preserved in the judicial process.

"We would like to state that the system has ensured them the right to object to the ruling and to request an appeal," the statement continued, "without resorting to sensationalism through the media that may not be fair or may not grant anyone any rights, and instead may negatively affect all the other parties involved in the case."

The statement also described the progress of the woman's case and explained that it was heard by a panel of three judges, not one judge "as mentioned in some media reports."

It said the case was treated normally through regular court procedures, and that the woman, her male companion and the perpetrators of the crime all agreed in court to the sentences handed down.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said U.S. officials had "expressed our astonishment" at the sentence, though not directly to Saudi officials. "It is within the power of the Saudi government to take a look at the verdict and change it," he added.

White House homeland security adviser Frances Townsend, who announced her resignation Monday, called the case "absolutely reprehensible" but told CNN's "American Morning" the Saudis deserve credit for their assistance in battling terrorism. "This case is separate and apart from that, and I just don't think there's any explaining it or justifying it," she added.

The case has sparked outrage among human rights groups.

"This is not just about the Qatif girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.

"We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets.

"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," she added.

Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediately void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."

Don't Miss

The man and woman were attacked after they met in Qatif on the kingdom's Persian Gulf coast, so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position.

Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.

Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.

He told CNN he has appealed to the Ministry of Justice to reinstate his law license and plans to meet with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh.

"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," he said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."

He said the handling of the case is a direct contradiction of judicial reforms announced by the Saudi king earlier this month.

"The Ministry of Justice needs to have a very clear standing regarding this case because I consider this decision to be judiciary mutiny against the reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions," he said.

Under law in Saudi Arabia, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights and creation of a human rights commission.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/saudi.rape.victim/index.html
Saudi court ups punishment for gang-rape victim
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Woman, 19, gets six months prison, 200 lashes for meeting with unrelated man
Group of seven raped her and the man, from whom she was retrieving photos
After lawyer protests light sentences, rapists' sentences increased
Victim's punishment doubled for talking to the media

(CNN) -- A court in Saudi Arabia increased the punishment for a gang-rape victim after her lawyer won an appeal of the sentence for the rapists, the lawyer told CNN.

The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs. The seven rapists, who abducted the pair, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison.

The victim's attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, contested the rapists' sentence, contending there is a fatwa, or edict under Islamic law, that considers such crimes Hiraba (sinful violent crime) and the punishment should be death.

"After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday. "However, we were shocked that they also changed the victim's sentence to be six months in prison and 200 lashes."

The judges more than doubled the punishment for the victim because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," according to a source quoted by Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.

Judge Saad al-Muhanna from the Qatif General Court also barred al-Lahim from defending his client and revoked his law license, al-Lahim said. The attorney has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month.

Al-Lahim said he is appealing the decision to bar him from representing the victim and has a meeting with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh on Monday.

Don't Miss

Saudi King's U.K. visit draws protests

"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," al-Lahim said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."

Al-Lahim said he wanted the Justice Ministry to take "a very clear standing" on the case, saying the decision is "judicial mutiny against reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions."

Women are subject to numerous restrictions in Saudi Arabia, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and the need for a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

CNN was unable to reach government officials for comment.

CNN's Saad Abedine and Mohammed Jamjoom contributed to this report.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dcc_1197910115

A king's kindness? Saudi rape victim spared 200 lashes

A rape victim sentenced to 200 lashes has been pardoned, but the case highlights the need for wholesale reform of the Saudi justice system

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree 17 Dec 07
Brian Whitaker

There are reports today that the Saudi woman who was sentenced to 200 lashes after being gang-raped at knife point has finally been pardoned by King Abdullah.

This, obviously, is good news for the rape victim and also for her lawyer who was banned from his profession in the process of defending her, and will now be reinstated.

But that's about as far as the rejoicing goes. A royal pardon is not the same as an acquittal; it means the woman has been forgiven for her "crime", but the stain of "guilt" remains.

The Saudi justice minister made this very clear when he said the pardon was based on concern for the woman's welfare.

"The king always looks into alleviating the suffering of the citizens when he becomes sure that these verdicts will leave psychological effects on the convicted people, though he is convinced and sure that the verdicts were fair," the minister said.

In other words, the judges who first sentenced her to 90 lashes and then increased the punishment to 200 lashes on the grounds that she was the "main cause of what happened", will suffer no loss of face, and can carry on just as before, dishing out their state-sanctioned violence in the name of religious virtue.

In fact, the rape case followed a not-unfamiliar pattern in Saudi Arabia: the courts do something stupid, there's uproar in the media (primarily the western media), the Saudi elite (especially its diplomats) is embarrassed, and eventually the king intervenes.

The trouble with the royal prerogative, though, is that it's every bit as arbitrary as the system that gives rise to these cases in the first place. And there are plenty of disgusting judgments where the palace does not intervene - as with the unfortunate Egyptian who was executed for witchcraft a few weeks ago.

The real need is for wholesale reform of the justice system but that would mean confronting the kindgom's religious establishment - and it's one nettle that King Abdullah seems reluctant to grasp.

http://www.ww4report.com/node/4675

Saudi Arabia: rape victim gets 200 lashes

Submitted by WW4 Report on Sat, 11/17/2007 - 02:31.

The only good news here is that is that it has sparked an international outcry—which comes just in time to embarrass the barbaric Saudi regime at the Riyadh OPEC summit. (AFP, Nov. 16) From The Telegraph, Nov. 17:

A Saudi woman has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison after she was the victim of a gang rape.

The sentence against the 19-year-old Shia woman from Qatif, in the Eastern Province of the country, was passed because she was in the car of a man who was not a relative at the time of the attack, which contravened strict Saudi laws on segregation.

A court had originally sentenced the woman to 90 lashes and the rapists to jail terms of between 10 months and five years but increased the punishment after an appeal, saying the woman had tried to use the media to influence them.

According to the Arab News newspaper, the woman was gang-raped 14 times.

Her offence was in meeting a former boyfriend, whom she had asked to return pictures he had of her because she was about to marry another man.

The couple was sitting in a car when a group of seven Sunni men kidnapped them and raped them both, lawyers in the case told Arab News.

The former boyfriend was also sentenced to 90 lashes for being with her in private.

The victims' lawyer, Abdul-Rahman al-Lahem, was also ordered to face disciplinary action after he spoke to the media about the original sentence.

"My client is the victim of this abhorrent crime. I believe her sentence contravenes the Islamic Sharia law and violates the pertinent international conventions," he said.

"The judicial bodies should have dealt with this girl as the victim rather than the culprit.

"The court blamed the girl for being alone with unrelated men, but it should have taken the humane view that it cannot be considered her fault."

The crime of rape can carry the death penalty in Saudi Arabia.

So the US claims to be defending Western values, progress and secularism in Iraq—while backing a regime that carries out these sort of atrocities. Meanwhile, idiot-leftists in the US have no problem with the fact that the jihadist "insurgents" they cheer on in Iraq subscribe to precisely the samestandards of sharia "justice"—and are, in fact, quietly backed by the Saudi regime.

We hate to say it, but among the only people who seem to have a consistent position on this question are the neocons—who would cut US ties to the Arab regimes generally. The fact that the victim in this case is a Shia is particularly telling. Washington's neocons would use Saudi Arabia's substantial and politically marginalized Shi'ite minority as cannon fodder in their hubristic schemes to actually break up the Kingdom—despite the fact that the Shi'ite Islamist leadership is no more progressive, and having played precisely this card has brought utter disaster to Iraq. So no, the neocons reallydon't have a consistent position on this...

That leaves the intelligent left, of which we hope we are a part—the left that actually has an analysis, and principles which it will not compromise—and therefore remains in intransigent opposition to both Islamism and imperialism.

There's still a few of us out here...

See our last post on the "girl from Qatif"

http://ww4report.com/node/3309

Saudi Arabia: woman sentenced to 90 lashes for getting raped

Submitted by WW4 Report on Thu, 03/08/2007 - 00:08.

OK, Fox News may be touting this story for bad, Islamophobic reasons. One of the ironies of our times is that jingoistic propagandists like Fox are bashing US allies like Saudi Arabia, while "progressives" in the West are lining up with reactionary political Islam—even if it means cutting slack for US client states. Are we the only ones who feel like we're through the looking glass here? March 6:

Saudi Kidnap, Rape Victim Faces Lashing for 'Crime' of Being Alone With Man Not Related to Her

A 19-year-old Saudi woman who was kidnapped, beaten and gang raped by seven men who then took photos of their victim and threatened to kill her, was sentenced under the country's Islamic-based law to 90 lashes for the "crime" of being alone with a man not related to her.

The woman is appealing to Saudi King Abdullah to intervene in the controversial case.

"I ask the king to consider me as one of his own daughters and have mercy on me and set me free from the 90 lashes," the woman said in an emotional interview published Monday in the Saudi Gazette.

"I was shocked at the verdict. I couldn't believe my ears. Ninety lashes! Ninety lashes!" the woman, identified only as "G," told the English-language newspaper.

Five months after the harsh judgment, her sentence has yet to be carried out, "G" said she waits in fear every day for the phone call telling her to submit to authorities to carry out her punishment.

Lashes are usually spread over several days. About 50 lashes are given at a time.

The woman's ordeal began a year ago when she was blackmailed into meeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having a relationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the desert kingdom, according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper.

She met the man at a shopping mall and, after driving off together, the blackmailer's car was stopped by two other cars bearing men wielding knives and meat cleavers.

During the next three hours, the woman was raped 14 times by her seven captors.

One of the men took pictures of her naked with his mobile phone and threatened to blackmail her with them.

Back at home in a town near the eastern city of Qatif, the young woman did not tell her family of her ordeal. Nor did she inform the authorities, fearing the rapist would circulate the pictures of her naked. She also attempted suicide.

Five of the rapists were arrested and given jail terms ranging from 10 months to five years. The prosecutor had asked for the death penalty for the men.

The Saudi justice ministry, however, said rape could not be proved because there were no witnesses and the men had recanted confessions they made during interrogation.

The judges, basing their decision on Islamic law, also decided to sentence the woman and her original blackmailer to lashes for being alone together in his car.

See our last posts on Saudi Arabia and the struggle within Islam.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/relief-and-dismay-in-saudi-rape-victim-case/
December 17, 2007, 4:17 PM

Relief and Dismay in Saudi Rape-Victim Case

By PATRICK J. LYONS

Advisors to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia may have thought that pardoning “the girl from Qatif” would quiet critics at home and abroad who were outraged by the way she was treated by the fundamentalist-Islamic Saudi justice system. But from many quarters, the pardon, reported in a Saudi newspaper on Monday, seems to be renewing the criticism and calls for reform.

A bit of back story: This is the now-notorious case of a 19-year-old woman, recently married, who, having been seen sitting in a car with a man to whom she was not related, was abducted and repeatedly raped by seven men. The assailants were prosecuted (for kidnapping, not rape), but so was the woman, known publicly only as the Girl From Qatif, and the man she was with, for the Saudi crime of “illegal mingling.” And the two victims got a harsher sentence than some of the assailants initially did: 90 lashes and several months in prison. When she appealed and the case began to attract international attention, the sentence was increased to 200 lashes, and the court suspended her attorney’s license to practice law.

Many people around the world object strenuously to the way women are treated in Saudi law and society in general, but this case was extraordinary even in that context, bringing down a storm of international condemnation on the country. Even President Bush, who rarely has anything bad to say about an important ally whose ruling family have been close friends of the Bushes for decades, weighed in on the Girl >From Qatif, calling the verdict and sentence “outrageous.”

The pardon of the woman, which was reported in the newspaper, Al Jazirah, but has not yet been confirmed by the government, is being met with some predictable relief that the sentence will not be carried out. Ahmed Al-Omran, a Riyadh university student and blogger who has written often about the case, expressed some satisfaction that “justice and common sense have prevailed.”

But the reaction was more mixed among those posting comments on his blog, who questioned the government’s motives and asked whether a pardon would change anything beyond the one case.

“I don’t see as a very positive thing,” a commenter using the screen name Abujoori wrote:

The reason? Just because there are many other injustice that takes place in our courts and the main reason, I believe, for the royal pardon in this case is the huge publicity it got. What about others who do not get the ability to make a public case of their problems in the court rooms, do not they deserve a look that create a better process for everyone in the country to get their rights!

Other reactions have included dismay that the king insisted as he issued the pardon that the courts were not wrong to convict and sentence the girl, and that the king has not moved faster to reform and modernize Saudi justice. As Hannah Allam of the McClatchy newspaper chain noted on her blog Middle East Diary:

The Girl of Qatif’s pardon included no plans to address the laundry list of other alleged inequalities that human rights activists have uncovered in the Saudi court system.

The huge latitude judges have is one of the issues, Ms. Allam noted, saying that about all that Saudi judges have to go by in sentencing offenders is the Koran:

Interpretations can vary widely from judge to judge. As a result, there are no uniform sentencing guidelines, so a robber in one city can get 50 lashes while a robber in another city could get 20 years in prison for the same offense.

The BBC, which noted in November that the sentences handed down in the Qatif case had wide support in Saudi Arabia, reported Monday that conservatives in the country were lashing out today against the pardon, saying that leniency to the woman would undermine public morality.

(The rapists’ sentences were lengthened on appeal as well, and one Saudi appeals court judge reportedly said he thought all involved, rapists and victims alike, should be put to death.)

If nothing else, the case has opened up a rare debate in the country over its justice system.

An American blogger who identifies himself as Dr. X, a clinical psychologist, took note of another dimension of the story: Though the woman and her lawyer were pardoned, according to Al Jazirah’s report, there seemed to be no word of any pardon for the man who was abducted, raped, and then prosecuted along with the Girl From Qatif. As Dr. X put it:

While the female victim’s sentence ignited a storm of criticism in the West, liberal Westerners who are more interested in identity politics than justice were utterly indifferent toward the Saudi judge’s punishment of the male rape victim.

This isn’t the least bit surprising. Political identities always seem to carry the disease of convenient moral indifference in service of political ideology and agenda. For many liberals, woman-as-victim rather than freedom and justice-for-all serves as the basic interpretive template for the Qatif story.

Or it may have to do with the less than wholly innocent role the man seems to have played in the events that fateful day in Qatif, according to Arabnews:

According to her husband and her lawyer, the rape victim had met the male friend to receive some photos of her that he had from a relationship with her when she was 16. She contends that the man had initially threatened to distribute the pictures to shame her.

He wasn’t prosecuted for being a cad, of course, but you’d think it wouldn’t have helped him either in the appeals court or the court of public opinion.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/clinton-lashes-out-at-saudis/story-e6frf7lx-1111114930823
Hillary Clinton condemns Saudi gang rape lashes sentence
From: Herald Sun November 22, 2007 12:00AM

HILLARY Clinton has condemned the sentencing of a Saudi rape victim to 200 lashes and rebuked the White House for its response to the incident.

Clinton, who argues on the 2008 campaign trail that she has the foreign policy experience needed of a president, recalled how she had spoken out on human rights violations at a global conference on women in Beijing in 1995.

"The latest example is the punishment of 200 lashes that a Saudi Arabian court has given to a victim - the victim - of a gang rape."

"This is an outrage," Clinton said in a statement.

The Democratic front-runner accused the Bush administration of refusing to call for a reversal of the sentence, on the grounds that it was an internal Saudi decision.

"I urge President Bush to call on King Abdullah to cancel the ruling and drop all charges against this woman. As president I will once again make human rights an American priority around the world," Clinton said.

Yesterday, the State Department voiced "astonishment" at the sentence, but stopped short of calling for it to be changed.

Asked if the US government was reluctant to condemn an important Arab ally ahead of a conference aimed at reviving Palestinian-Israeli peace talks, State Departments spokesman Sean McCormack said: "No, that's not it at all.

"These kinds of decisions are going to have to be decisions that the people of that country - in this case, Saudi Arabia - are going to have to take for themselves," he said.

The woman was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

The tougher sentence was handed down after an appeal.

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict form of Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism and forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and requires them to cover head-to-toe in public.

The woman's assailants, six Saudi men, were initially sentenced to between one and five years in jail for the rape. Their sentences were stiffened to between two and nine years in prison, but they escaped the death penalty.

The court also took the unusual step of initiating disciplinary procedures against the woman's lawyer, Abdul-Rahman al-Lahem, removing him from the case for having talked about it to the media.
"The Ministry of Justice welcomes constructive criticism . . . The system allows appeals without resort to the media," said yesterday's statement.

It also berated media for not specifying that three judges, not one, issued the recent ruling and reiterated that the "charges were proven" against the woman.

It also repeated the judges' attack on Mr Lahem, saying he had "spoken insolently about the judicial system and challenged laws and regulations".

Mr Lahem was not available for comment. The woman now has no legal representation.

New York-based Human Rights Watch has called on Saudi King Abdullah, who last month announced plans to overhaul the system, to drop all charges against the woman.

White House homeland security adviser Frances Townsend, who quit on Monday, called the case "absolutely reprehensible" but told CNN's American Morning that Saudis deserved credit for their assistance in battling terrorism.

"This case is separate and apart from that, and I just don't think there's any explaining it or justifying it," she said.

The case has caused outrage among human rights groups.

"This is not just about the Qatif girl. It's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defence of Women's Rights.

"We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there."

From 1 to 25 of 41 Comments

1 2 Next »

1.December 17, 20074:26 pmLink

And yes, “lashing out today” is a good use of the pun. I agree with the main sentiment, this pardon is a face-saving move only, and does nothing about the wider injustice and misogyny of Saudi Arabia.

What they really need, to appear civilized to the wider world, is to scrap ALL of their crazy laws about women not being allowed out in public alone, not allowed to drive, not allowed to have certain jobs, being forced to cover themselves nearly completely, and all the many others.

The real problem is their culture itself is backwards, misogynistic, and fairly barbaric. I don’t see that changing anytime soon though.
— Dan Stackhouse
2.December 17, 20075:08 pmLink

This rape case is only the tip of the iceberg. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia could hardly be more pathetic or dysfunctional:

At least this young women appears to have fared better than Abd al-Karim Mara’i al-Naqshabandi. Let’s hope it stays that way once the media spotlight leaves her.
— Bill in Chicago
3.December 17, 20075:34 pmLink

It is tragic to think of the many victims in that backward culture who have no voice, no justice and no hope.

Saudi Arabia is among the 10 cruelest countries in the world.
— Susan Wilson
4.December 17, 20076:17 pmLink

Just want to add that the royal pardon has included the man who was with the girl.
— Ahmed
5.December 17, 20076:48 pmLink

When Muslims call for Shariah, is this the kind of justice they are asking for?
— Don
6.December 17, 20077:10 pmLink

As someone who has spent years studying the Middle East but who refuses to visit until my gender is treated at least as well as a household pet, this story only serves to underscore my outrage at the treatment of women in Moslem countries. Yes, Moslem countries, and I do not shy away from saying this for reasons of political correctness.

Although sitting in my comfortable New York metropolitan suburban living room as I write this, which makes my outrage seem at best patronizing, women (who outnumber men) in Moslem countries must stand up for themselves and their gender and not tolerate demeaning behavior in their own homes and among their friends, behavior that ultimately leads to what we read about the Girl from Quatif.

Ladies, if we don’t care about ourselves, why should anyone else?
— Felicia
7.December 17, 20077:25 pmLink

Re Felicia’s statement: How on earth can the women of any Muslim country stand up for themselves? They have been beaten down since infancy and told they are less than human. That being said, men don’t receive justice in Muslim countries, either. Those who hold power hold it absolutely. That’s the problem with religious law: nothing trumps the word of God. Not even reason, logic and compassion. I am a religious person and I find myself praying more and more often that I never find myself living in any nation governed by religion.
— Matriarch
8.December 17, 20077:27 pmLink

More bizarre and totally unacceptable behavior among the Bush Family’s closest friends.
— Owees Pop
9.December 17, 20077:30 pmLink

Indifference shown towards male victim In Saudi Arabia by Western liberals is similar to the indifference shown by whole Western news media and governments when Islamic terrorists kill non-Christian victims. For example, US government will counsel India not to react violently if Pakistani terrorists kill Kashmiri Hindus but same US will bomb an Islamic country (like Libya) if some Libyan intelligence officials are merely suspected of carrying out attack in Berlin that killed few US soldiers.
— suresh
10.December 17, 20077:30 pmLink

One of the reasons people perhaps paid less attention to the plight of the male victim was that it was less reported. The Times had an article online today, for example, which includes zero mention of any prosecution or sentence for the male victim.
— janet
11.December 17, 20077:46 pmLink

GWB reaction in the recent press conference “..If she was my daughter..” seems to have worked on the Saudi King.
— Arun Mehta
12.December 17, 20077:47 pmLink

MULTICULTURALISM: ‘All cultures are equal. But some are more equal than others.
— David Chowes
13.December 17, 20078:16 pmLink

The Saudi king approved of the punishment, but bestowed mercy on the victim !!! The Sunni Wahabiism is the most repressive, degrading, backward religion on earth. How come the U.S. is not concerned with regime change in Saudi Arabia, a country that holds one half of it’s citizens in slavery ???? Muslim women, stand up for yourselves !!!!!!!!
— kayt
14.December 17, 20078:22 pmLink

Good thing she wasn’t behind the wheel: Mingling and operating a motor vehicle. Probably a beheading offense. Where are the moderate muslims and when will they stand up and be counted?
— jstacey
15.December 17, 20078:22 pmLink

The Middle East’s women easily rank among the most beautiful women. It is such a waste that they are so disrespected and mistreated, with Saudi Arabia leading the charge.

Every great religion has its scoundrels and its blood sucking, parasitic extremists who purport to speak in its name even as we speak and current events are demonstrating that Islam is no exception.
— blacklight
16.December 17, 20078:56 pmLink

I guess the Saudi king thinks it was pretty big of him to pardon the young woman. What should have happened is to declare the verdict null and void, the law null and void, and that the country would start working on writing secular laws that treat all people equally.
— Carol
17.December 17, 20078:57 pmLink

Interesting that Bushie never thought of bringing democracy to Saudi Arabia, a country which sent us 15 out of 19 9/11 hijackers.

Instead, he tries to ram it down the throats of the Iraquis and Afghanis who, are probably even more opposed to the concept.
— Nat Solomon
18.December 17, 20079:01 pmLink

Regarding Felicia’s comments:

If Moslem women resorted to Lysistrata-like tactics of withholding sex from their men, bet you a devalued U.S. dollar that there would be some forward motion (no pun intended) in the field of equality.
— Shlomo
19.December 17, 20079:01 pmLink

Why do we pretend not to know that these people are our enemies. They do not bother with this fiction regarding us. How many Arabs flew into the twin towers?
— c. perry
20.December 17, 20079:30 pmLink

Not trying to justify the light punishment given to the rapists, they should have been punished a lot more harshly. But the drums of propaganda have turned against the Saudi Arabian government, who just denounced Iraq war publically, twice? Mind you this case has been going on for months and there was no out cry in the media until recently since the King critisized the war in Iraq.
— Ahsan
21.December 17, 200710:01 pmLink

We must be patient. I am certain that Arab societies will someday whole-heartedly embrace civilized norms of behavior.

In the meantime, let’s celebrate the progress that they’ve already made. In this particular case, for instance, the victim was pardoned (surely that ought to be worth something!) and, more importantly, neither her hands nor her head were chopped off.
— Jose R. Pardinas
22.December 17, 200710:19 pmLink

As a frequent visitor to Saudi Arabia, I can attest that one of the most salient issues that this case illustrates is the need for a predictable, transparent and fair judicial system.

And as to Felicia, your comments about Saudi women – especially as one who proudly has never visited the Kingdom – are condescending and disrespectful. You have no idea how strong Saudi women are, particularly in their homes, and how important the current cultural struggles to define and modernize gender issues have become.
— Wendell
23.December 17, 200710:37 pmLink

Islam, religion of peace and tolerance?…There is, or was, plenty of bad treatment of women in christianity, but islam is unsurpassable in that. I do not understand muslim women at all. Women who are voluntarily wearing hijabs, niqabs etc. (in western countries) essentially offer support for men who kill women for violating islamic dress code. In muslim countries, I guess they justify and conform to their subjugated lives because they don’t know anything else, and because otherwise every women would feel completely unhappy their whole lives. I wish we could just let them be, like they were for centuries, but now westerners and muslims know too much about each other.
— Z.
24.December 17, 200710:46 pmLink

This is outrageous…the international community should stand up against this form of terrorism….TERRORISM AGAINST WOMEN!!!! Calling all sisters from the Americas,Africa, Europe,Asia and Australia to unite and stand up against this form of terror. Let death sentence be pronounced for all rapists all over the world. Only then will men fear raping women!
— aNGry wOMan
25.December 17, 200711:44 pmLink

I am astonished that the plight of the man with her received practically zero reporting other than the occasional mention that he, too, was raped and received the same sentence. I only learned that his sentence was also commuted by reading these reader comments. There appears to be something more to be unpacked in the reporting with the omission. Was her plight more compelling because she is female? Was it easier to avoid thinking too much about the homosexual aspect of the male on male rape? His sentence was equally unreasonable yet was handled as a foot note at best.
— Ron

26.December 18, 200712:06 amLink

Being right here in SaudiArabia (for almost a year now) I agree with Felicia and disagree with Wendell. Go to a shopping mall and you see fully covered in black dresses women looking at sexy clothes but only allowed for inside the home. Women can’t shop alone, drive the car, etc. The husband, who can gave 4 or 5 wifes is a free bird. More seriously though, all the women obviously have had their female circumcision (no outside interest in the world). We love Saudi because of oil and that’s about it but that country has been frozen since Mohammed.
— Bob/KSA
27.December 18, 200712:14 amLink

As a Muslim living in the US, I am utterly disgusted with all these so-called Islamic governments and societies.

They make a mockery of my religion and push it deeper into what appears to be the modern-day Dark Ages.

More importantly, they simply continue to degrade humanity.
— KD from Los Angeles
28.December 18, 20075:51 amLink

Z,

You seem unfamiliar with the treatment of Jewish women in some sects of Orthodox Judaism (see the recent NYTimes article) or Christian women in some quasi-Christian sects. Extreme Islam has not cornered the market, unfortunately, on treating women as a subspecies.
— janet
29.December 18, 20078:06 amLink

We’ll just keep giving Saudi Arabia around $1 billion a year in foreign aid though and support this sort of dictatorship. I guess you can call it a “tip” directly to the Al Saud family for their work giving us oil.
— John
30.December 18, 20079:18 amLink

Having lived in the Kingdom as well as the US, what is particularly outrageous and barbaric about this story to me is that the US government is blatantly trying to force unequal treatment under color of law based on gender down the throats of a sovereign foreign government. Cruel and unusual as it is, at least the Saudi justice system initially treated the male and female rape victims equally regardless of gender, which is a huge improvement over the outdated tyranny and ignorance of American feminist jurisprudence that Bush et al are trying to force on Saudi Arabia.
— DcFather
31.December 18, 20079:29 amLink

The US value system is based on justice tempered with mercy. How fortunate! BVut look at the elements of this case: A married women broke her countries laws- knowingly- by associating with a male not related to her without a family chaperone.
The law is obiously intent on preserving not only the moral standards of its society but potentially the reputation and safety of the woman and the man.

Then the unthinkable happens when seven men attack the couple and rape the woman.

Now this is where Sharia Law seems to really break down: the rapists are not tried for rape ( which is a serious crime in our country) but rather kidnapping? Do we know the facts of this charge?

Then the defense lawyer is punished to doing his job!

Now think about here in the US: We allow our women the freedom to go into bars drinking and to indulge in casual sex with anyone. Rape is still rape but the aftermath of this type of behavior has the potential of destabilizing family and societal values. Remember that we enforced our laws against the kind of behaviour up until the 1960’s.

Maybe we are both wrong!
— Bill
32.December 18, 20079:57 amLink

If it weren’t for the oil, the middle east and Saudi Arabia would be a quaint ignorancy (a new form of government based upon complete idiocy) that only the adventurous might visit. But due to their monetary and petro control they demand recognition. Unfortunately, they retain their barbarism and wonder why the world has not embraced them as equals. Well no DUH. Money does not intelligence make.
— Tony
33.December 18, 200710:16 amLink

Heaven forbid that men be expected to control themselves and not rape women and adhere to some “social values.” Instead, the solution is to punish women for the actions of men?

So much for men being the “stronger” sex. If men can’t control their violent impulses, perhaps men should be the ones whose freedom is restricted and who need to be confined to their homes and protected by their families.

In the interest of preserving the family, of course.
— Nicole
34.December 18, 200711:16 amLink

Anyone who has been following the Al Saud for 60 years would have known weeks ago that King Abdullah would pardon this girl.. Its called leadership.
— sara akers
35.December 18, 200712:13 pmLink

Plz stop all this nonsense about Islam. You don’t know anything about Islam and about the women’s rights in Islam. You call it backward religion, let me tell you something don’t judge Islam by its followers if you really want to know Islam read the Holy Qur’aan and the Hadith then you will come to know that its not a backward religion. And one more thing this backward religion of Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S and why is that you find it out by yourself.
— Aj
36.December 18, 20071:26 pmLink

#24 – Let me know how that works out for you. It’ll never happen. Not because I don’t want it to happen, but it will never happen.

You can’t force democracy on a country that has never had any notion of what democracy is. We’re trying in Iraq, but it’s not working out. We tried in Vietnam, but that also failed. People fear change. Sometimes more than what they fear in their current lives no matter how miserable it may be. When a big percentage of them are illiterate, uneducated and unemployed they follow those that seem to know what they are doing regardless of how wrong it might look in our eyes. Ask some Iraqi’s. They feared Saddam, but feared change and democracy even more.
— Capt. Concernicus
37.December 18, 20072:36 pmLink

to Nat solomon

I love that we seem to forget the plight of afghan women that was so important to the Nat’l Organization of Women a few years ago. once GWB took them on all of a sudden they had it good?

There are serious problems unfortunately they cling to the theory they are “protecting” their women b/c they see what a disgrace american and “liberal” women have become. Why don’t we women respect ourselves and show tyranical male dominated cultures women can take care of themselves and still be repectable.
the latin culture has many of the same problems and unfortuanelty I see them passed on by mothers and other women more than any one else. Men have gotten the idea that they can get away with anything from somewhere.
I feel for Saudi and women in extremeist cultures the religion itself is not whats evil but how it is misused. The idea of modesty and moral bhavior although a foreign concept to us americans is not such a bad thing. The subjugation and abuse of women however is.
— mlegui
38.December 18, 20075:29 pmLink

Rudyard Kipling’s famous apothegm,”East meets east and west meets west but n’er the twain shall meet.”, would seem to characterize this “issue” rather succinctly. Those differnt rules in play in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are not really affected by occidental attitudes. What action the King took and the reasons he had for taking it are likely his property, not that of the press, or that of the world at large, for such is the nature of absolutism, or something similar to it which characterizes the political life of Saudi Arabia. This silly business of the amicableness between the President’s family and Saudi ruling family is a product of the press, which likely bears little or no relation to the facts of the matter as perceived by the Saudis’ rulers. There are protocols and modes of behavior inherent in the situation which the press mischaracterizes for its own benefit, for lack of any clear understanding of what is going on, much like the characterization of the nature of the al Sauds’ rule as “absolutist”, and of this occurrence as “an issue”. The point is that what seems like a trangression of the human rights of various persons to those of us in the west who care to access a place on that particular bandwagon is not so to the majority of people who inhabit the place where the event in question occurred.If asked to answer the question:”Whose business is it?”, one would have to answer with reference to the Saudis, and not the occidental press.
— Disinterested Party
39.December 19, 200712:06 pmLink

Wow! Still these issues in the 21st century? With so much technological advancement, man still seems to have a hard time staying across the line of reason that segregates him from the social structures of primates.

This is an issue of modernity and tribal traditions that existed long before Islam was born. Islam facilitates (as in Christianity, Judaism et al) with followers ignorant of their own faith’s teachings about presuming God’s judgment of others; and by upping the ante in assigning religious gravitas to preexisting pagan prejudices and fears.

Habits are the hobgoblins of little minds, and some traditions are simply the product of the consistent practice of really old habits.

50000 years of very mixed reviews … God must be so pleased.
— northrhombus
40.January 10, 20083:58 pmLink

how utterly ridiculous, this country acts intolerable medevial toward women and needs to update its policies with the modern world if they wish to be taken seriously. plus, the business of forbidding cameras into the country is a silly regulation that serves no purpose to its people. and the rule that women are banned from driving is completely insane.
— alexis c
41.July 9, 20083:00 pmLink

The punishment sentenced to her is not from Islam. It is a sin for two unrelated people to mingle but it is not a criminal offence. I am an Islamic Studie student. According to Islam, the rapists should have been given a death sentence as they were married. The woman and the man committed a sin but they should never have been sentenced for punishment.It is culture and not Islam.
— Hamida

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Ex Isle Forums> Discussion> Orbis Terrarum

Muslim Justice: Saudi sentences rape victim

#1 Hambil

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:03 PM

link

Quote

A court in Saudi Arabia increased the punishment for a gang-rape victim after her lawyer won an appeal of the sentence for the rapists, the lawyer told CNN.

The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs. The seven rapists, who abducted the pair and raped both, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison.

The victim's attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, contested the rapists' sentence, contending there is a fatwa, or edict under Islamic law, that considers such crimes Hiraba (sinful violent crime) and the punishment should be death.

"After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday. "However, we were shocked that they also changed the victim's sentence to be six months in prison and 200 lashes."

"Meeting with an unrelated male" - prison and 200 lashes.

We can talk about cultural differences, and not imposing our culture on other countries, but this is wrong no matter how you look at it. Then again, they did charge her with a crime before torturing her, no matter how silly the crime. That's more than we have to do lately. *sigh*

Thank you George Bush for completely destroying any moral highground my country once held. By the way, this is our closest Arab ally. *double sigh*

Hitler. OMG I put Hitler in my SIG. Now I can end any discussion just by posting in it.

#2 Spectacles

tired of treading water

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:58 PM

Quote

By the way, this is our closest Arab ally. *double sigh*

Another reason we need to develop alternative energy sources--and pronto.

I know I'm going to sound like a yahoo, but I'd love to see us disentangle from the Mideast altogether--mainly because of the wacko ideology that has taken root there. The reality is that the only reason we're involved at all with Mideastern politics is we need the oil.

We need badly to find a way NOT to need that oil.

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#3 FnlPrblm

Deduction at it's finest

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:10 PM

Hambil, on Nov 18 2007, 12:03 PM, said:

We can talk about cultural differences, and not imposing our culture on other countries, but this is wrong no matter how you look at it. Then again, they did charge her with a crime before torturing her, no matter how silly the crime. That's more than we have to do lately. *sigh*

This maybe and I agree with the first part of your sentence. I obviously feel sorrow for the victims. Rape is wrong any way you look at it. Those seven slobs are getting their just dessert.

However, do we really know everything here? I've read articles like this before only to find out later that deeper information exisits. (not saying that's necessarily true here.) What kind of past relationship did these friends possess? Did their families forbid them seeing one another? Was the male who was raped, homosexual? (And I ask this only because it's considered a major crime in muslim countries.) What were the photos of?

"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes: The Beryl Coronet

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#4 tennyson

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:12 PM

Kuwait would be the United States' closest Arab ally if you go with the opinion polls and leadership statements as well as basing rights. Then it would be either Bahrain or Qatar with Saudi Arabia trailing. Saudi Arabia would be the most influential in both the US and the Middle East but not the closest.

#5 offworlder

pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:04 PM

ah, but the woman victim had her sentence doubled because it was not a harsh enough negative incentive, deterant, stick-opposite-the-carrot, to what she did: she was found alone, unchaparoned, with an unrelated GUY! shocking! they coulda been having Se_ * ! she made HUGE scandal for her pa, and of course we all know that the husband and pa figures are the ones needing protection, it's the only way to ensure status, which needed for arranged marriage alliances between families like it's been done for four thousand years or more.
You see, the men must be protected by law; the men must have everything assured that the daughter, or wife, or concubine, is stuck in private in the house; never driving, never seen out, her face that is, never beyond her door outside the company of those who can ensure propriety, that is pa or husband or elder brother even if he's eight, or elder cousin or uncle, or elder lady with stern scorn on her face.

just playing their devil advocate card :whistle:

Women must be covered and slaving and pregnant inside; whilst the men can sit smoking hookah, drinking coffee, and talkin politics and culture and banking.

{if that woman lives, and that's a big if, she'll be so scarred from two hundred, let's have that word again, two hundred!, lashes of the bamboo rod or cat o nine, or whatever they use, stripping off her flesh into red... I'll stop there; she'll never be seen by men again; or wanted for marriage; she'll be fopped off in a quiet marriage with a big dowry and no supervision from her original family as to her welfare, beaten and unloved as a slave for life, a junior wife servant whilst he gets an exciting senior wife.}

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#6 FnlPrblm

Deduction at it's finest

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:27 PM

^Well, I agree. It's horrible. But one has to base the game off the rules they govern themselves by.

#7 G1223

The Blunt Object.

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:30 PM

Hambil, on Nov 18 2007, 01:03 PM, said:

link

Quote

LOL you think Bush could have done anything to change the Saudi behavior? Really? Just like a democrat to try to say if we were the moral leaders of the world. Trying to lead the world in morality like like hearding cats or making a pig sing. Almost never works and annoys the cats or the pig to no end.

See it's the 'we must respect their culture and accept the differences' that comes from Liberals....Oh sorry Progressives. That is till the cannibal passes you the plate. Then suddenly you want to do something about it. I love it this is why you guys are horrible on nation defense or security issues.

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#8 scherzo

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 05:29 PM

Quote

See it's the 'we must respect their culture and accept the differences' that comes from Liberals....Oh sorry Progressives.

I think these days the message is more "America is every bit as bad as the worst cultures on the planet". Bringing up an atrocity overseas, is simply a precursor in the mandatory USA trashing process.(we'll call Hambil's post "exhibit A" :oh:

) Of course we don't dish out 90 lashes to rape victims here, but we more than make up for it with non-stop self flagellation.

-scherzo

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#9 SparkyCola

80% Tribble

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 06:33 PM

This is to do with the Religious police in Saudi Arabia - here's more of their sense of "justice" :angry:

Religious Police stop girls leaving a burning building because they are not wearing the correct dress

Sparky

Voici mon secret. Il est trés simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux. ~ Antoine de Saint Exupéry

#10 G1223

The Blunt Object.

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:37 PM

Once again we take our allies (Note I did not say friends) as they come warts and all. We sided with Stalin who turned out to murder more of his people than the Germans ever did. We backed (Both parties in the White House) Pinnochette and the rest of the merry band of killers in South America.

Sometimes we pick these guys because we want to have these folks on our side rather than against us. Or can you imagine a Saudi government working openly against our interests?

#11 Cheile

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:05 PM

there are ppl that can whine all they please that they have every right to their culture, but crap like THIS is where the lines needs to be drawn and they need to be forced into the proper century.

"Andromeda may be over but it's not dead. Not as long as we have fanfic writers dedicated to keeping it alive. Whether you accept everything as canon or stop at a certain point. Whether you accept and enjoy Nu Drom or only accept Classic Drom, it will never be over. Not as long as we have each other [and Beka], who binds us all together." ~ Mary Rose

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#12 G1223

The Blunt Object.

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:19 PM

And what moral right do we have to do it? What privation are you prepared to suffer to make the Saudi government do what you want? What if the PRC or Russia step in to block us? What if the price we have to pay is the OPEC shuting off the oil? Is this worth possibly destroying our economy over?

I think what happened is wrong so do not get me wrong. But even if we were not in two wars and troops deployed to three areas of operation what are you prepared to do to make this government change to your frame of mind?

#13 Kosh

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 04:48 PM

Cheile, on Nov 18 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

there are ppl that can whine all they please that they have every right to their culture, but crap like THIS is where the lines needs to be drawn and they need to be forced into the proper century.

Who does the forcing?

Can't Touch This!!

#14 Zwolf

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 05:16 PM

Might be time to look into buying one of these. And translate this into Arabic.

Stupid superstitious barbarians...

Cheers,

Zwolf

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And I'll feel even better
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#15 Spectacles

tired of treading water

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 06:25 PM

Quote

Z: Might be time to look into buying one of these.

Absolutely. It's good to see GM taking the development of alternative-fuel automobiles seriously.

We should have done this thirty years ago. If we had, we would have made a big dent in global warming AND deprived a lot of Wahhabists of trillions of dollars. Did anyone else see that CNN special on Brazil's sugar-ethanol? Almost every car in that country runs on it. They started switching to sugar-ethanol (which is more efficient than corn ethanol) about twenty years ago....

....When I see a huge, gas-guzzler with a yellow ribbon or American flag on it, I want to scream.

I don't know if GM will succeed in getting this electric car on the road by 2010, but, in the meantime, I hope that when it's time to buy new cars, more and more people at least opt for low-emission, fuel-efficient vehicles.

Of course, if gas goes up to 4 dollars a gallon, people will decide that they really don't need to drive massive SUVs, especially if they live in the city.

This post has been edited by Spectacles: 19 November 2007 - 06:28 PM

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#16 G1223

The Blunt Object.

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 07:40 PM

OK after laughing. You think we are the cause of gobal warming. Really.

We do not have any city that is putting out the level of smog and smoke as they had in Malaysia and that was a few years ago. We put pollution controls in place for the major part of the country. You might do well to remember that China (that bastin of human rights) is not going to slow down it's pollution making. It will claim it is a devolping country and block any efforts to make them change their ways.

You have people who will accept that hydrid cars are nice but till the price comes down to where the IC cars can be let go by the lower income person to cover his expenses it is pie in the sky.
Nothing is going to make that happen as it currently goes.

#17 Spectacles

tired of treading water

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 08:24 PM

Quote

G: OK after laughing. You think we are the cause of gobal warming. Really.

Where in the hell did I say that? You know, at least half of the time you laugh at some ridiculous thing someone said, they actually didn't say that. This is one of those times.

Do I think the U.S. is the cause of global warming? No.

Do I think the U.S. needs to stop talking about "energy independence" and actually do something? Yes. I think all countries should. But I'm mainly concerned about thisone because it's my home.

I think our dependence on oil is dangerous to our security and damaging to the environment. And we should have begun a serious energy independence program many, many years ago. So we have a lot of catching up to do, and we'd better get on it.

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#18 G1223

The Blunt Object.

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 08:33 PM

And after we get energy independent then what? Maybe force SA to become a civilized nation? even if it means destroying their pericous culture? Or simply ignoreing them and let them grow up?

Even after we become free of oil (which makes so many things it is scary to believe) that we can simply ignore that part of the world?

#19 scherzo

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 09:07 PM

Spectacles, on Nov 19 2007, 08:24 PM, said:

Quote

G: OK after laughing. You think we are the cause of gobal warming. Really.

Where in the hell did I say that?

I guess I could "just try to be helpful" and explain where G got the impression you think America causes global warming. I'm sure that wouldn't be the least bit annoying.

-scherzo

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#20 Spectacles

tired of treading water

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

"A big dent" doesn't equal the whole shebang. And sorry if that irritated you. Believe it or not, I was honestly trying to be helpful, not sarcastic....I keep forgetting this is teh Internets.

Quote

G: And after we get energy independent then what? Maybe force SA to become a civilized nation? even if it means destroying their pericous culture?

Quote

My first post on this thread: I know I'm going to sound like a yahoo, but I'd love to see us disentangle from the Mideast altogether--mainly because of the wacko ideology that has taken root there. The reality is that the only reason we're involved at all with Mideastern politics is we need the oil.

We need badly to find a way NOT to need that oil.

Quote

G: Even after we become free of oil (which makes so many things it is scary to believe) that we can simply ignore that part of the world?

If we weren't dependent on the oil, we would be a lot less hamstrung when it came to taking any action or inaction that would be in our and our allies' security interests.

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scherzo

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 10:22 PM

Quote

"A big dent" doesn't equal the whole shebang. And sorry if that irritated you.

Heh...it didn't really.
I'm actually making tongue in cheek reference to your post from a couple of days ago:
http://www.exisle.ne...&...t&p=1055119

Believe it or not, I doubt you can find anyone who'll celebrate harder the day gasoline becomes obsolete than I will. I see no downside there. On the other hand, I completely agree with G about the world's big polluters, and how "political" the finger pointing on the warming issue has been. It's something that always colors the debate in an unfortunate way.

-scherzo

The Great Global Warming Swindle

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#22 Cheile

proud J/Cer ~ ten years and counting

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 03:30 AM

Kosh, on Nov 19 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

Cheile, on Nov 18 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

there are ppl that can whine all they please that they have every right to their culture, but crap like THIS is where the lines needs to be drawn and they need to be forced into the proper century.

Who does the forcing?

the rest of the damn world--by standing up for ALL women, including the poor girl this story is about.

#23 Spectacles

tired of treading water

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 08:13 AM

Quote

Scherzo: I'm actually making tongue in cheek reference to your post from a couple of days ago:
http://www.exisle.ne...&...t&p=1055119

Yeah, I knew that.

Quote

Believe it or not, I doubt you can find anyone who'll celebrate harder the day gasoline becomes obsolete than I will. I see no downside there.

We agree!

Quote

On the other hand, I completely agree with G about the world's big polluters,

And I wasn't disagreeing with G. G was disagreeing with something he thought I said: namely that we're the sole culprits in global warming. That's not what I meant, but alleging it was gave him an opportunity to trot out his standard "LOL sorry you silly progressive" routine. Numbers show we're a big contributer because of our Co2 emissions, but numbers also show that China and India are big contributers, too. China, especially, is a horror story of pollution, thanks to the lack of regulations.

Quote

and how "political" the finger pointing on the warming issue has been. It's something that always colors the debate in an unfortunate way.

Agreed, as long as you acknowledge the political finger pointing goes both ways. For years, rightwing commentators have denied that global warming even exists and have tried to paint anyone concerned about it as a "socialist." And the Bush Administration has actually made efforts to water-down and cast doubt on NASA's environmental report as recently as a couple of years ago.

And from the other direction, I understand your frustration with the "blame-America-first" crowd, but I ain't one of 'em. All I'm saying is that each person needs to do what he/she can to reduce his/her consumption of petroleum and petroleum products. And I'd like our country to take serious strides toward energy independence because our dependence on Mideast oil puts us in a precarious position.

This post has been edited by Spectacles: 20 November 2007 - 08:14 AM

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#24 sierraleone

All things Great and Mischievous

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 03:49 PM

Bumping for good news:

http://www.abcnews.g...t...2640&page=1

Quote

Saudi King Pardons Rape Victim
...
The monarch traditionally grants pardons in advance of Eid al-Adha, a Muslim holiday that begins Wednesday. Saudi Arabia's Justice Minister told Al-Jazeera daily newspaper that the king has the "right to overrule court judgements if he considered it benefiting the greater good."

Well I hope a religeous holiday wasn't the only reason (they do mention internal and international pressure/reaction later on) but it is a step in the right direction.

This post has been edited by sierraleone: 18 December 2007 - 03:51 PM

Quote from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart:

Bennett: Look, it's a debate about whether you think marriage is between a man and a women.
Stewart: I disagree, I think it's a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."

#25 eechick

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:47 PM

Has anyone seen any info regarding the guy she met? Was he pardoned too or just her?

#26 Raina

Cpt. Raina 'Starlee'

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 10:04 PM

^Yeah, that's a good point. With all the outrage over the woman who was raped and sentenced, we don't hear anything about her friend who was also raped and sentenced! He's just as much of a victim as she is.

"First thing they tell you is to assume you're already dead... dead men don't get scared or freeze up under fire. Me, I'm just worried that hell's gonna be a lonely place. And I'm gonna fill it up with every toaster son of a bitch I find." -Racetrack

"I believe what goes around comes around and if I am the instrument of 'coming round' then I'll do it happily. " -Shal

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#27 sierraleone

All things Great and Mischievous

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 10:27 AM

Raina, on Dec 18 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

Ask and you shall receive! (actually I just happen to come across it in the news, wasn't looking for it, but what the hey

)

http://edition.cnn.c.../19/saudi.rape/

Quote

Saudi King Abdullah's letter pardoning a rape victim from 200 lashes and six months in prison for appearing in public with an unrelated male also included a pardon for the man she was with, according to the Saudi Justice Minister.

However this pisses me off :glare:

Quote

"The woman and the man in her company have experienced enough torture which should be enough punishment for them and a lesson to learn from."

There is no lesson to learn!

And no, the following should not matter, even it true:

Quote

A Saudi court ruled the woman had an "illegitimate relationship" with a man who was not her husband, and that the assault occurred after she and the man were discovered in a "compromising situation, her clothes on the ground."
...
The woman was meeting with a man -- described by the her attorney as a former friend from whom she was retrieving a photograph -- when they both were abducted.

Don't know which version is true, or if they both are, but that does not justify anything that happened to them after, and did not deserve any "lesson"

This post has been edited by sierraleone: 19 December 2007 - 10:29 AM

#28 eechick

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 06:44 PM

Thanks!

沙特19岁少女遭轮奸被判鞭刑200记监禁半年.eml.7z

种种哈

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2007年11月16日 沙特19岁少女遭轮奸 被判鞭刑200记监禁半年

wanghx

Qatif girl rape case

Contents

[edit]Background

[edit]The court's findings and verdicts

[edit]First verdict

[edit]Appeal

[edit]Removing the victim’s lawyer

[edit]Media Attention

[edit]Royal pardon

[edit]Public Response

[edit]See also

[edit]References

[edit]External links

[edit]A Response in Defense of the Saudi Judges

[edit]Other

Court Doubles Sentence for Victim, Bans Her Lawyer From the Case

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From 1 to 25 of 41 Comments

Muslim Justice: Saudi sentences rape victim

种种哈

2007年11月16日沙特19岁少女遭轮奸被判鞭刑200记监禁半年