Multiple APC MIDI devices input and feedback

[Francis Gagnon]

Hi !

We are in process of shopping for another controller to give us more pads to our APC40 and we were asking ourself if there could be an issue of Channels or notes cross talking in lightjams. Is anyone have tried that before ? Like with an APC20 or APCmini ?

[Robin Larsson]

Hello Francis,

Sadly it won't really work well with multiple APC unit in Lightjams, since the APCs doesn't have any settings for which channel and such they send on, so they will most likely use the same channels and same notes, atleast to a large degree.
I've tested quickly with our APC40mk2 and APC mini, and they use the same notes partly. The APC mini only send on Midi channel 1,notes for buttons and CC for the faders, but the APC40mk2 uses 9 or 10 Midi channels for outgoing messages and all 16 for incoming (making it pretty cumbersome in Lightjams). The RGB Pads listen to 1 note each on all channels, reacting differently depending on which channel it receives a note value.

As far as I know the units won't crosstalk by themselves, but if you map something in Lightjams to a specific Note or CC, it will be triggered by both units if both use the same Note or CC (which is likely) same goes for outputting Midi, both units will receive it and react accordingly.

Afaik there is no way to tell Lightjams to send a specific Note/CC on a specific channel to just one unit listening to that channel. You can just select to use or not use Midi in or out from/to a unit.

That tells me that it should technically be possible to do such a separation, but would probably require a large rebuild of the way Lightjams handles Midi.

I would love a different way to handle Midi output, instead of or in addition to patching it like DMX, it could be more integrated to the Midi in (and the way Midi In is handled now is great btw), say that one got an option to return the incoming signal to the same Note/CC on the same channel and unit. And with some options to modify the outgoing signal.

As an example, a source receive a Note with value 127, and I want to send 47 back to the same button, turning it say blue. If I select toggle on the incoming Midi, the outgoing is toggled as well.
If one could also set the value that is sent when not triggered, that would make it very easy to use RGB and other multicolor buttons.

One option for you Francis could be to use something like Bome Midi translator and just have it take signals from one of your APCs and just transmit the same notes/cc on a different channel, and then use the in/out from Bome in Lightjams instead of the signal directly to and from that APC. I've done basically that with Novation Automap for our Launchpad to get it on a different channel than the APC40mk2 to be able to use both. Sadly that doesn't seem to work with feedback to the Launchpad, but I think that's a problem with Automap.

It's sad that AKAI really make it hard to use APCs to their full potential with anything other than Ableton, for their other devices they have mapping software where you can change what is sent and on which channels.

I would recommend that you look at the MPD2 range, they have proper software and they have pressure and velocity sensitive pads and that is just fantastic with things like blinders, strobes and any dynamic lights. I have the MPD218 and use it together with our APC40mk2, looking at getting an MPD226 or MPD234 in the future as well. The MPD218 have 16 pads with 3 banks (so 48 pads) and 6 rotary knobs in 3 banks. Sadly only red light in the pads so can't really color code them, but the bigger models have RGB pads and 4 banks on the pads. Especially with the MPD234 you get a fair bit of extra buttons besides the pads, and 8 faders and 8 knobs in 3 or 4 banks.
So I'd actually recommended the MPD234 rather than the APC40mk2, but they should make a feat pair :)

[Mathieu]

As Robin said, you can't configure the channels used by the APC40. That means that both APC40 will do the same thing. It can still be useful depending on what you want to do. But if you want two independent devices, you should look at a device that can be configured like the MPD2 range.

[Francis Gagnon]

Ok, after searching and all, i decided to go with an APC20, got a great deal on it. From what i've been reading, they use the same channels as the APC40 (much like a apc40 x 2 setup). So bome's MTP will be my route.

I've made a preset in bomes that translate all incoming APC20 midi channel messages by adding 8. So first row would be on ch 9, second on ch 10 ect... Everything here is ok for now.

How could i get LED feedback from lightjams to the APC20 ? As i understand it, i have to patch the APC20 as a fixture but i'm lost here. How do i assing MIDI channels on the APC20 fixture ?

Thx for your help :)

[isaac]

In the Patch Editor you can assign generic dimmers to Midi Notes or Midi CC Channels (in the Universe Selection Box),

then you use those attributes on your grid to send Midi Out to your device.

But if you are using Bomes MTP, I am not sure if LJ will be able to send Midi to the Akai directly, you may have to go through Bomes again.

Also you need to know the Midi Input Channels for each key/button on the Akai.

[isaac]

Forgot to mention you can also create a fixture template for your Akai with just dimmers on the corresponding channels (use fixed values to skip unwanted channels) and then assign that fixture to Midi CC/Midi Note in the Universe Selection Box.

[Francis Gagnon]

Yeah, i found that Matthieu already made an APC20 fixture. Here's my status right now :

- APC40 and 20 going into MTP

- APC40 have a translator to push midi thru

- APC20 have a rule that add +8 to the midi CH effectively making it CH9 to 16
- All of above goes to MTP Midi virtual Output to LJ.

The other way around :

- LJ sends LED feedback to MTP Virtual midi Input
- MTP splits signal :

--Everything CH1-8 goes to APC40
--Everything CH 9-16 is subtracted by 8 and goes to APC20

On my LJ patch :

UA	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C9	1	APC20
UB	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C10	1	APC20
UC	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C11	11	APC20
UD	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C12	21	APC20
UE	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C13	31	APC20
UF	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C14	41	APC20
UG	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C15	51	APC20
UH	Akai APC20	8xNote@49 (10ch.)	MIDI Note C16	11	APC20
UI	Akai APC20	Note@81 (7ch.)	MIDI Note C9	11	APC20
YA	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	43	lpd8
YB	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	44	lpd8
ZA	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C1	49	APC40-note
ZB	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C2	49	APC40-note
ZC	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C3	49	APC40-note
ZD	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C4	49	APC40-note
ZE	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C5	49	APC40-note
ZF	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C6	49	APC40-note
ZG	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C7	49	APC40-note
ZH	Akai APC40	8xNote@49 (18ch.)	MIDI Note C8	49	APC40-note
ZI	Akai APC40	Note@81 (11ch.)	MIDI Note C1	81	APC40-note
ZJ	Akai APC40	Note@1083 (8ch.)	MIDI Note C9	59	APC40-note
ZK	Akai APC40	CC@49 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C1	49	APC40-cc
ZL	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C1	17	APC40-cc
ZM	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C2	17	APC40-cc
ZN	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C3	17	APC40-cc
ZO	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C4	17	APC40-cc
ZP	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C5	17	APC40-cc
ZQ	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C6	17	APC40-cc
ZR	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C7	17	APC40-cc
ZS	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C8	17	APC40-cc
ZT	Akai APC40	9xCC@17 (8ch.)	MIDI CC C9	17	APC40-cc
ZU	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	37	lpd8
ZV	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	38	lpd8
ZW	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	39	lpd8
ZX	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	40	lpd8
ZY	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	41	lpd8
ZZ	Generic Dimmer	8 bits (1ch.)	MIDI Note C1	42	lpd8

So everything APC20 is CH9-16 bound and i receive info. So far so good BUT feedback won't show. I'm thinking my LJ setup is ok but bomes not pushing back feedback to the APC20. I also searched on bome forum but no luck. going back to the scratch pad :)

[Francis Gagnon]

Nevermind ! Found it ! As i was writing this, i saw the note@49 in the patch and realised that every adress on the APC40 was on 49.

Bingo ! Changed it and now feedback works ! :)

[Robin Larsson]

Perhaps a bit late reply here, but I´d just like to suggest that it may be better to use say Effect instead of Dimmer or Dimmable Effect when creating fixtures for MIDI controller feedback, since if you use Dimmer or Dimmable Effect, the controller will dim/blackout when you use the Master dimmer, and especially if you are using something like an APC40mk2 with 45 RGB pads, you get a looot of lightshow when you lower the Master Dimmer function in Lightjams (ask me how I know :P ) The RGB pads have something like 100 different colors and brightness levels mapped over the 127 values of MIDI on each note... 

So these days, I only use Dimmer for things where I really want it to be controlled by the master dimmer/Blackout, and use Effect when I dont want it. Same goes for things like Strobe functions on LED fixtures, I used to use the Shutter function since classic lights use a shutter to get the strobe function, and those are generally closed/blackout at 0 and full open on 255, and thus it can make sense to use Shutter for Strobe on such lights, but on many LED fixtures, 0 on the Strobe channel usually is Open/No Strobe, and 255 can either be Open or high speed strobe. 
The issue really only comes when trying to use the built in visualization in LJ, it expects Shutter to be greater than 0, otherwise the light isnt shown in the viz, took longer than I care to admit to figure that out when I used the viz for some LED par cans :P So now all my fixtures use Effect as Strobe.

Perhaps a new Strobe attribute could make sense in future versions of Lightjams? I made a fixture for the Cameo Auro Spot 200 the other day and had to use Effect for a lot of functions, especially in 22ch mode. Perhaps some more attribute types could be added in general for things like Macros/built in programs and settings of the lights and such? And perhaps a few more Actions could be added for things like settings/resets, such as Move in Black and different levels of reset of a moving light that can do for example Color/Gobo wheel reset without resetting the entire fixture?