Re: Submission of a spouse in a marriage

[Frankela Albury]

Hey Guys,

 

It's been awhile since we've had an online discussion.  So here it is!!!!

²²Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. ²³For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. ²⁴Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

²⁵Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ²⁶to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, ²⁷and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. ²⁸In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. ²⁹After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— ³⁰for we are members of his body. ³¹“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” ³²This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. ³³However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine about a wife submitting to her husband, and he wondered what my take on the issue was.  Anyway we went back and forth on the issue and meaning of submission and what it means to submit.  He brought up the bible verse previously established.

I'm wondering whats your take on a woman submitting to her husband?  What form does that represent for you?  How much of it should be compromise or not?  Should there be one in a marriage who ultimately takes lead and the other follows?  What is the precedence for your answer? 

Finally, do you think in a marriage the partners are equal or a woman is to submit to her husband as  he submits to the lord. Ultimately the husband being the head of the house?

Thanks!!

 

Aiye

[Jai Collier]

I take the scripture pretty literally. I feel that at the end of the day the husband is going to be responsible for what happens to his family anyway and is therefore held responsible for leading his family.

 

I think actual submission comes into play in a variety of ways. In my marriage it's not me walking 6 steps behind or remaining silent until spoken to. LOL With us it is  praying with him and for him when we need to make a decision because his final decision is what it is even if i have reservations or may disagree. I think submission is subtle and purposed not some kind of punishment for being a woman. For example over the past month we have been holding bible study in our house because my husband felt led to do so. Granted i think it's a good idea to, but if he had said we have too much going on rightnow and this cant be a priority then we wouldnt be having bible study. Because that's not what he wanted for his family and in his home at that time.

 

Ennh it's not always easy, but its a learned behavior and there's an art to it and i've enjoyed the rewards of it. Plus it's much easier to do the wives submit part of the equation when your husband is doing the husbands love your wife part. wWorks best when everyone is following their directive. When they are not...it gets sticky and tricky and rough going...but you still have to be doing your part when they arent doing theres.

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*Sometimes, I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It astonishes me. How can any deny themselves the pleasure of my company? It is beyond me.-Zora Neale Hurston

[Faunya Estrada]

I agree with Jai and take the Bible pretty literal too.  Ultimately, the husband is the head of the household and weather you agree with him or not, the wives are suppose to submit.

 

However, I do have some reservations (questions, really.....)

How closely correlated are verses 22-24 with verses 25-28?  Are they correlated at all?

 

Are we called to submit, regardless of the position the husband plays? What if you have a husband who doesn't love you and does not concern himself with you and your well being?  What happens if your husband becomes addicted to drugs and wants you to do unsavory things?  What if your husband converts to Nation of Islam and wants you to abandon your beliefs?

 

How do you submit in those situation?  Are you still called to submit in those situations?

"Do what you can, with what you have, from where you are."
- Theodore Roosevelt

 

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People might not get all they work for in this world, but they must certainly work for all they get.
  - Frederick Douglass

[Frankela Albury]

I don't believe in submission at all.  Maybe I'm alone in this aspect.  Submit by definition means surrendering your will to somone else's authority.  I by no means will surrender my will to a human being who will (disappoint) somewhere along the line.  I will only submit to GOD/SPIRIT.  Man errs, always.

 

Although as husband and wife you should have the best interest of  your family at heart, this is not always so.  Even in the best of marriages.  I feel a marriage is a partnership, it's a union of equals.  There are times where the husband may take lead on things he is more equipped to handle and where the wife may take lead on things she is more equipped to handle.  And when there is a problem that poses a disagreement, then a compromise should be made.  Man (speaking of all human creation) is inherently selfish, and will make decisions based on how he/she views the world.  And if you as a woman can not decide or think for yourself you will allow your husband to lead you down a wrong path just to be submissive.  I just can't. 

 

No one has power over your will  (in a free society anyways) i as a mother don't have power over the will of my own  children who I raise and care for and would lay down my life for.  I do however have a respect and honor for my children.  And for a husband I would also respect him as my husband and honor him as my husband and respect our union thusly so.

[Jai Collier]

when it comes to a husband that is not following Christ not loving you  and will lead you to destruction and hell...i refer to  1st corinthians  7:13-14 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. you don't have to follow him into sin, but you are called to stick in there and tough it out and let your light shine to the point that he is sanctified just by being married to a true believing wife. BUT the next verse says But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. So there is an escape hatch. you are not bound to a man that refuses to follow God.

 

 

But that's the tricky thing with people getting married to folk just because they want to be married and not waiting for the man/woman God has for them. You get unequally yoked...so now you are stuck trying to submit to someone who isnt submitting to God until.... in the words of lauryn hill "when it all, it all falls down."

[Tamara Evans]

I am late responding to this topic, but just wanted to throw in a last minute comment.

 

Submission - the act of submitting.. Submit means to yield oneself to the power or authority of another.

 

We submit/yield to many things in everyday life, this is the natural order of things. There are cheifs and there are Indians... everyone yeilds to the Chief.

 

So, I would think there is no difference in a marriage.  You can't have two leaders, there would be confusion.  And each gender has a role to play.  Let the man do his part and the women her part. 

As someone stated earlier... If your mate is going in the right direction then it really shouldn't be an issue of submitting to them.  Just like any good leader.. They lead, you follow. 

[faunya....@gmail.com]

It doesn't mean that as a woman, we are not as strong or as smart or as capable of leading as the man/husband is. It simply means that we are following the natural order that God has set before us. Like Tammy said, you can't have 2 leaders. Let each person play their position.

How many of us have or have had jobs where we felt we knew more than our bosses....or we were equal to our bosses?  Still, they have been given the position as our superior and we have to respect them as such, whether we agree with their method of leading or not. 

Sent from my iPad

[Frankela Albury]

We say the natural order of things b/c the Abrahamic religions tell us that is the natural order of things.  But there are other belief systems where the woman is the lead, or there is no lead, just BEING.  So wouldn't necessarily bank everything on that being the natural order of things in a patriarchal society.  If that being so it brings up so many other things that woman should/should not being doing.

 

Anyhoo,  I believe that a marriage (much like a business deal) is a partnership.  Your husband does not marry you to be your boss/supervisor.  He marrys who he feels will be his "helpmate" that's his partner.  So the same rules do not apply to your boss in the workplace.  When something is a partnership, both parties reconcile with one another to come up with an agreeable solution.  Should the husband always have the final say?  What if he is not a versed as you are on a certain subject?  Or what if you are equally versed (in that instance shouldn't a compromise be made)?

 

Example Jai used. Her husband wanted to have bible study in their home a certain day of the week, and she conceded.  What if that particular time in the day didn't work for you, b/c it was the time you settle the children down for bed, and company hypes the children up?  What if you just began a new project at work and was coming in late many nights of the week and it interfered in you getting the proper rest/down time for the rest of the week?  Would a compromise come in then, or would the husband just say he was lead and his word is law?

 

There are so many instances whether your husband and you are equally yoked or not where a compromise should be made/or discussion should be had.  It doesn't mean there are two leaders.  It means you are in a partnership.

 

I have the pleasure at working somewhere that many of the married people are of two different religions, and neither convert to the other religion, but both mutually respect the other's belief's and support them.  (ie. Jew and Christian).  The children are not raised to believe one or the other but partake in both major holidays or ceremonies that mean the most to the other partner.  These partnerships have lasted years.  That's called a partnership.  Not a submission to the will of a husband.  By definition if you are submitting that means, your husband is your master and you are subservient to that.  So in essence he is your ruler. 

[Jai Collier]

sorry im late responding to frankela, but ie biblestudy w decided on a time and date together. BUT i always think we have so much going on and would have been able to come up with a valid argument not to do it at all. But he felt it was something we needed to do o increase our service to god and the balance of our lives. he is our spiritual head so i get on board. you dont have yp agree to submit..if that were the case it would be easier. LOL

[Faunya Estrada]

Well, being that I do not follow those other non-Abrahamic religions, what they do is irrelevant to me.  I'm not going to take bits & pieces from other belief systems, just because it's more in line with my ego.

Also, the reality is that you are like your boss' helpmate to a degree.  We are hired by a company to assisted in their greater goal and ultimately you must either submit to that purpose or bounce (or be fired).  It doesn't mean that your boss doesn't value your contribution and if they're a good boss (and your a valuable employee), they take consider everything you say....and will actually choose to follow your opinion if they see it is better than what they had originally planned.  I know that's how it works at my job.  I am always consulted by my boss before big decisions are made....and I think if you are truly a great woman & you have that true leader as a husband, it will work the same way.  A great leader knows their strengths and weaknesses & it is part of their greatness to employ those who will complement those strengths and weaknesses to obtain the higher goal/purpose.

I don't really know any couples, personally, that have completely different religious beliefs (ie. Jew/Christian), but I do know some adults who grew up in those kind of circumstances.  100% of those adults that I know (even if they grew up to be successful individuals w/a stable family life) are confused as heck and ultimately chose to not believe at all.  This is not to say this doesn't happen to offspring of parents who are rooted in the same religious background, because it does......but not at the rate of the other groups (in my experience).

-- Sent from my Palm Pre

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[Frankela Albury]

Then the marriage is in fact not a partnership, but a dictatorship.

[Obatunji McKnight]

"It doesn't mean that as a woman, we are not as strong or as smart or as capable of leading as the man/husband is. It simply means that we are following the natural order that God has set before us. Like Tammy said, you can't have 2 leaders. Let each person play their position."

I wonder how following the natural order has worked out historically. The 'natural order' puts you in a subservient position despite your capabilities? The bible has been used to justify slavery with ideas like 'natural order'.

 

'Also, the reality is that you are like your boss' helpmate to a degree.  We are hired by a company to assisted in their greater goal and ultimately you must either submit to that purpose or bounce (or be fired).  It doesn't mean that your boss doesn't value your contribution and if they're a good boss (and your a valuable employee), they take consider everything you say....and will actually choose to follow your opinion if they see it is better than what they had originally planned.  I know that's how it works at my job.  I am always consulted by my boss before big decisions are made....and I think if you are truly a great woman & you have that true leader as a husband, it will work the same way.  A great leader knows their strengths and weaknesses & it is part of their greatness to employ those who will complement those strengths and weaknesses to obtain the higher goal/purpose.'

 

Yes one is hired to work at a job. We are confused, marriage is nothing at all like working for money. We are so confused we are secularizing our religions and relationships. Combining principles of capitalism with religion in our relationships. These relationships are not the same. Marriage is about joining together to become one unit. Working is about producing profit. (Remember whatever you do at your job unless non-profit is all to make profit.)

 

'Well, being that I do not follow those other non-Abrahamic religions, what they do is irrelevant to me.  I'm not going to take bits & pieces from other belief systems, just because it's more in line with my ego.'

 

It's easier for some to follow a book with defined roles and actions in the search for a more personal truth. It's easier for some to search for the personal truth through experience. If following makes one happy and searching makes another happy why try to change each others minds?

 

Overall: Leading and following are the same thing. For the purpose of communicating we separate it into opposites. What is a leader without anyone to lead? What is a follower without anyone to follow? The ideas fail to stand alone. Both leader and follower are equally important and are constantly moving back and forth between both extremes of these roles. No leader is never a follower and no follower is never a leader.

[faunya....@gmail.com]

Oba,

I actually agree with your last statement, in that, in order to be a good leader you must be a good follower...and vice versa.  A good leader must know when to allow someone else to lead or take control of a situation.  The majority of the verses Aiye posted referred to the way the husband is suppose to act towards his wife and communicates how the man is expected to be as a leader. The only thing it says about the woman is that she is to submit and respect her husband. Historically, the reason women were mistreated was because the men took the Bible and used it out of context to control their wives, while ignoring their roles mentioned in the Bible. They felt if they worked and took care of the bills, then they were doing their part. 

In reality, if they follow the example Christ left us, being the head not only means financially taking care of the home and having the final say, it means loving your spouse as yourself, being willing to die for them and sacrifice your own self for their greater good.  It means being their servant and treating them like a precious jewel.  In return, the wife is to respect her husband and submit to his leadership.   Leadership has everything to do role and less to do with control. I compared it to work because this is a place most of us can relate to, where there are defined leadership roles. Those companies that are most successful and have the most employee retention and satisfaction, value and serve their employees. In turn, the employees stay and take pride in their jobs.  I know some people may disagree, but marriage is a job to me. It takes WORK!!!!!!!......and if you put in the work, it pays handsomely. If the leader does their part and the follower does theirs, everyone grows and becomes better and is ultimately happy. 

Sent from my iPad

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[Obatunji McKnight]

When you work at something you feel like it should pay off and when it doesn't you feel cheated. The only way to avoid this unneccessary disappointment is to change ones outlook. The idea of working at things is relatively new and not necessarily a natural phenomena. What do you define as work? I love to play basketball so when I 'practice' I don't feel like I'm working. If you enjoy it, is it work? What is the difference between work and leisure? Is leading a household work, or a natural occurence of circumstance? I have more to say but class in 15 mins.

[Faunya Estrada]

Weeelllll, I love my husband and I love the companionship and I love the security and fun things that go along with marriage.......but along with all that love and fun comes some work.  While I love the things mentioned above and probably a few other things I forgot to mention, cooking & cleaning when I'm tired, putting things in order that I never put out of order, helping with/attending some event instead of hanging w/family or friends, making concessions when I don't feel they are necessary, etc., etc.......not so much.  #truestory

You may love to play basketball, but if you want to be at the top of your game, there are certain things you may have to do or certain things you may have to give up that you don't love so much.  I believe that, in life, anything worth having takes work.....especially if you want to keep or maintain that thing.  Sometimes you may get it by luck, but if you wanna keep it, be prepared to work!!!

-- Sent from my Palm Pre

[Obatunji McKnight]

If I love to play basketball, I don't need to be at the top of my game to enjoy playing it. The idea of competition is what would push me to excel at it. So depending on whether I'm playing basketball to win or just to play matters a lot. I think marriage is different because I can play ball alone but you can't be married to no one, and being that I'm not married you may have a point I don't yet have the experience to comment on.

 

As far as leading and submitting and its role in relationships, I still maintain they aren't practical ideas in reality. They cause more confusion and suffering than cohesion. Looking at them as separate is not realistic. It is apparent the biblical instructions about roles in marriages were added as a sexist social control mechanism. In monotheism there is no female deity. Is God male? This idea of submission is presented as the natural order of things but where is the spiritual example that clearly explains how God as the male head is submitted to by his female wife, the Holy Ghost. If we are equal children in the eyes of God it is a contradictory ideal.

 

Current trends indicate there are more employed women in the US than men. Is this unnatural? How much control does ones spouse have over the financial terms of a relationship if they are being supported? How can a man feel like the head of his household and the leader when he is out of work and his wife supports him? If we are honest about how we feel about money, that fact would change how the decisions will be made. Those supporting their partner feels like their opinion carries more import because they are the ones working. 

 

There are plenty of examples of contemporary society 'corrupting' these biblical mandates. How do we come to terms with that in our day to day lives?

[Jai Collier]

wow! haha i'm not laughing at your opinion but at the finite way it was delivered. scary. I dont think marriage is a dictatorship because it is governed in all aspects by love, not fear terror and threat. Otherwise..i SURELY would have remained single! lol

[Obatunji McKnight]

I don't think marriage or relationships are dictatorships, or that religions present them as such. There is a lot of grey area because many religious texts and moral systems taken literally are contradictory and they must be subjectively interpreted to some extent. I'm saying I feel boxing ourselves into predetermined roles that aren't truly reflective of our inner selves and our experiences is limiting at it's best, and dehumanizing at its worst. There are a lot of forces at work in this world trying to tell us how to think, who we are and what our purpose is. If we don't apply our intuition, analytic and critical thinking skills and use our hearts, it will be easy to get lost.