ACHIEVMENT GAP

[Faunya Estrada]

So, I was just talking to an intern at my job (Asian descent) about life after college, finding a job, moving out of your parent's house, etc.  He started talking to me about the neighborhood he currently lives in with his parents and how he hates it because his area is all Asian and Polish, but approximately 4 blocks away are the projects in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn.  I don't know much about Brooklyn, but I know about Bushwick Bill (The midget rapper that sang 'My Mind's Playing Tricks On Me').  Based on his music, I assume (and the intern confirmed) that the Bushwick section of Brooklyn is predominantly black and very dangerous, drug-infested neighborhood.

 

Anyway (I went kind of off topic....sorry about that), he goes on to say that he went to a pretty integrated middle school where the Asians, Polish and Blacks had classes together, but at some point the school decided to create honors classes and things changed.  According to the intern, when the school split the students into regular and honors, the school immediately became integrated.  According to him, basically all the Asians and some of the whites were placed in the honors classes. 90% or more of the blacks were in the lower-level classes.  In high school, he tested into Stuyvesant (for all non-NYers on the email, this is a public school for unusually gifted individuals.  You have to take a ridiculous test to get in.....very prestigious).  According to him, about 65% of the students at Stuyvesant were Asian, 30% white and 5% black/Hispanic/other.  Then he looks at me (I guess he thought I would have an answer for my entire race) and says he always wondered why that was....especially for middle school, where they all got the same education from elementary up.  I, unfortunately, didn't have any real answer for him....and we went on talking about other things.....but it had me thinking.

 

The achievement gap is a discussion that has become huge over the past few decades, especially as integration and equal opportunity has become more prevalent, but achievement among races continued to vary greatly.  So, my question to you is as follows, why would a group of people given the same opportunities have such a huge gap in education and achievement.  Why would the gap be split among racial lines....particularly among blacks?  Are we (well, not me, I'm an exception  ;-)) slower than whites and Asians?  Are we lazy losers, like 'they' say?

 

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, from where you are."
- Theodore Roosevelt

 

--
People might not get all they work for in this world, but they must certainly work for all they get.
  - Frederick Douglass

[Jai Collier]

Well...i'm not expert on the issue. But based on what i hear ALL the TIME from my kids teachers, a lot of black parents particularly low-income black parents are not interested in tall of the extra work it takes to stay on top of their childrens education. When your child is in school YOU are in school that means help with homework, projects, and field trips. That means extra assignments made up at home to help with areas the child struggles in. that means more than one annual parent/teacher conference to make sure your child is where they need to be developmentally. That means if you are a single parent and work full time...now you have 2 jobs. And if you already have 2 jobs, then now you have three. Because having children and pushing them mentally is a full time job. I think other communities where the family is intact have the benefit of 2 parents meeting all of those extra responsibilities. And I also think families made up of immigrants or first and second generation parents are fully invested in the America dream. They believe that an American Education when taken full advantage of can provide success.

 

So i guess all of that rambling is to say, 1.) Many low income black families are single parent families and can't or don't commit the time to investing in their childrens education. AND

 

2.) Our culture in general doesnt see education as the rocketship that it really is. They see it more like a necessary evil.

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*Sometimes, I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It astonishes me. How can any deny themselves the pleasure of my company? It is beyond me.-Zora Neale Hurston

[Angella Middleton]

Interesting topic, Faunya.  I'll respond briefly...

 

Just a few months into my undergraduate career at the University of Pennylvania I became convinced of this and remain convinced to this day - that for the most part, our Caucasian and Asian counterparts who succeed academically do so not because of some innate biological advatange, but mostly because they work hard - REALLY hard.  It is true that systematic inequalities result in us not being on the same fair playing field by the time we get to college, or even before then, but these set-backs can be overcome with hard work.  Many of us (Blacks) have yet to see this truth, and without seeing we don't believe and don't let hard work work for us.  If you subconsciously believe that your white or asian classmate is biologically advantaged to do better than you, then you'll make excuses for yourself when you don't do as well and won't push yourself as hard to do better.  It's true that parental support and influence plays a large role, but at the end of the day, I think it's more about your own individual choices and decisions.  There are many homes where parents equally support their children academically, but one succeeds and the other does not.  An outside influence can only push but so far.  At some point, an individual has to know, believe, and do for himself.

 

[Jai Collier]

This is true. Parents can only push you so far..at some point you have to grow your own wings. but i think when children are still very young, and before they develop their OWN ambition (or lack thereof), their parents should put that ambition in them. 

[Angella Middleton]

Oh yes, I absolutely agree with you.  The parental contribution is very significant to a child's success.  But I don't think I can fault parental involvement for the academic achievement disparity in black America.  I've just seen too many examples of parents pushing and supporting their children from very young ages and children still deciding to go another way in spite of what was put in them; and, oppositely, children succeeding by leaps and bounds despite a lack of support from their parents.

What about systematic prejudice in the very institution of education in America?  Drastic disparaties in funding for inner city public schools (where most blacks are educated) resulting in subpar facilities, outdated teaching materials, overcrowded classrooms, uncompetitive pay for teachers which does little to attract the best and brightest educators.  What about language composition on standardized tests being inherently biased against children of a certain class, culture, or socioeconomc status?  Do we buy any of this?

[Frankela Albury]

I must say there's a lot of variables in this case.  I don't at all think it has to do with one race being more intelligent than another.  But it does have to do largely with environment (in all aspects) and how an individual responds to his/her environment.

 

I'm not sure if you guys (of course before your time) but during civil rights, where they wanted to integrate the school system (Brown vs Brd of Ed).  And the powers that be, that wanted school systems to stay segregated argued that the schools were "separate but equal".  That was not true then, and is not true now. Especially not in NYC.  There are some school in certain diverse areas that all the students regardless of race are receiving the very same education.  But if you are a child with a family/both parents or single, who is not able to afford to live in certain communities (where the taxes are higher and the schools get more money for necessities) you will go to your local public schools which often don't have enough books for each student.  Classrooms are overcrowded. Teachers are underpaid (especially in NYC as compared to other counties (like Westchester where teachers make a considerable amount of more money) and parents are over worked and the area they live in is riddled with drugs and violence.  You will have a child who has so much to overcome just going and staying in school all day that it takes away from the focus of learning.  Even students who are highly intelligent and often put in gifted classes at a young age. 

 

I actually have much more to say but these are just a few variables that cause the underachievement level.  I just have to get back to work and can't write an essay.  I'll respond again later today to finish my comment.  Hope it makes sense as i'm in a super rush :-(.

 

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Faunya Estrada <faunya....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jai Collier]

Angie you are very right about the school situations. I was trying to address just that one particular scenario that faunya gave. Where all of the kids were in the same school and the school has gifted and talented programs.

[Faunya Estrada]

You all raise very good points and I think the answer encompasses all of those.  I would also like to add social expectations and acceptance to the mix.  The Chinese intern mentioned to me that his brother goes to Brooklyn Tech (another 'gifted' public school) and is not doing as well as he should.  Not only are his parents upset, but the intern is annoyed with his brother, as is the Chinese-American community (in general).  According to him, everyone in the Chinese-American community is expected to go to school, work hard and either become a business owner or a doctor/lawyer or similar professional.  Those who slack are considered outcasts.  In our community, expectations are the opposite.  You may (or may not) have parents and family members who encourage you to do well, but you are more of an outcast in the community if you are constantly studying and getting near perfect grades.  We praise the artistic and athletic ability more than anything else.  The role models we see as successful are singers, rappers, ball players and the like.  Most of the high profile successful business men or other professionals are seen as Uncle Tom's or sell-outs.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre

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[Tamara Evans]

And there it is...

 

I was going to say something very similar to what Faunya just pointed out.  So in her original posed question and scenario all of the children started out with the same educational background and remained in the same school system.  At some point the school decided to separate the Best students from the good students.

Most of the good students so happened to be the Black Americans, while the Best were of other ethnicity's.  Hmm...

 

I believe it's because in most black households there is a sub par standard of excellence.  There is a mindset of mediocrity... "so just as long as i get this C, i am still doing ok and ok is good" that mindset.

 

As some of you pointed out... Other ethnicity's are taught to work hard and that nothing less than the Best is acceptable.  The question is why are we as black Americans ok with being mediocre.  Also, like Faunya pointed out it's as if most of us have to be left brained individuals.. into the arts, sports, etc..

 

Also, as Angie pointed out.. at some point in a childs life they have to make a decision of their own.  Do you want to push yourself to make the Deans list or are you ok with just being that average student.

 

My story - I was born into a household with both parents.  One parent was more into the academic side of things and pushed both me and my sister to be the best in school.  I had to bring home straight A's.. B was ok but not expected of me.  I was expected to bring home all A's.  My parents separated when i was young, i was with the parent that wasn't much of a pusher or stickler when it came to the academics.  I basically had to push myself, but i knew to push myself because of my foundation. 

I went to what would be considered good schools all of my life.  I tested into one of the best HS in Philadelphia at the time.  Now here is where things take i turn... I stopped pushing myself.  All my life i was in the top of my classes but now i enter HS and i am around all of these other scholarly students and I become intimidated.  I just wanted to fall into the back ground.  My grades began to drop and i was ok with just being mediocre... a C student. 

This same mentality followed me into College..

 

Now, when you get into the inner city public school system and those disadvantages.. that is a totally different dynamic than a person who has all of the tools he needs to succeed and achieve and just does not because he/she may not feel or even understand the necessity of education. 

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Faunya Estrada <faunya....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Frankela Albury]

Mediocrity is supported in America. Doesn't matter the race.  That's why we had a C average president for 8 years. A president that was once a famous actor. America is the place where you can be anything no matter your intelligence. If you have a gimmick and a gift someone will pay you.  Most 1st generation & 2nd generation immigrants from poor impoverished country's see the USA as a goldmine of opportunity if you put in the work.  To even have a chance of a full Free education in there homeland is hard or almost non existent so when they come here they take full advantage & make their children do so as well.  In most countries if you are not from a prestigious background what makes you elite is your job title. Doctor lawyer etc. So they push their children in these professions and to be the best.  Americans may push their children or give them every educational support needed. But not just their environment where they live speaks but What they see on tv or online. You get the gist.  Because not only Asian or white immigrants work hard but also Africans, west indians

>> So, I was just talking to an intern at my job (*Asian descent*) about life

>> after college, finding a job, moving out of your parent's house, etc. He
>> started talking to me about the neighborhood he currently lives in with his
>> parents and how he hates it because his area is all Asian and Polish, but
>> approximately 4 blocks away are the projects in the Bushwick section of
>> Brooklyn. I don't know much about Brooklyn, but I know about Bushwick Bill

>> (*The midget rapper that sang 'My Mind's Playing Tricks On Me'*). Based
>> on his music, I assume (*and the intern confirmed*) that the Bushwick

>> section of Brooklyn is predominantly black and very dangerous, drug-infested
>> neighborhood.
>>

>> Anyway (*I went kind of off topic....sorry about that*), he goes on to say

>> that he went to a pretty integrated middle school where the Asians, Polish
>> and Blacks had classes together, but at some point the school decided to
>> create honors classes and things changed. According to the intern, when the
>> school split the students into regular and honors, the school immediately
>> became integrated. According to him, basically all the Asians and some of
>> the whites were placed in the honors classes. 90% or more of the blacks were

>> in the lower-level classes. In high school, he tested into Stuyvesant (*for

>> all non-NYers on the email, this is a public school for unusually gifted
>> individuals. You have to take a ridiculous test to get in.....very

>> prestigious*). According to him, about 65% of the students at Stuyvesant
>> were Asian, 30% white and 5% black/Hispanic/other. Then he looks at me (*I
>> guess he thought I would have an answer for my entire race*) and says he

>> always wondered why that was....especially for middle school, where they all
>> got the same education from elementary up. I, unfortunately, didn't have
>> any real answer for him....and we went on talking about other things.....but
>> it had me thinking.
>>
>> The achievement gap is a discussion that has become huge over the past few
>> decades, especially as integration and equal opportunity has become more
>> prevalent, but achievement among races continued to vary greatly. So, my
>> question to you is as follows, why would a group of people given the same
>> opportunities have such a huge gap in education and achievement. Why would
>> the gap be split among racial lines....particularly among blacks? Are we (

>> *well, not me, I'm an exception ;-)*) slower than whites and Asians? Are

>> we lazy losers, like 'they' say?
>>
>>
>> --

>> *"Do what you can, with what you have, from where you are."
>> - Theodore Roosevelt*
>>
>> *--

>> People might not get all they work for in this world, but they must
>> certainly work for all they get.

>> - Frederick Douglass*

[Faunya Estrada]

This is true.....but the gap still exists between African-Americans and caucasians who have been here just as long as us.  How do you explain that?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre

[Angella Middleton]

Right...I concur with Frankela.  Well, I concur with everyone, but really like what Frankela said. lol  Mediocrity is generally acceptable.  Most people expect you to DO your best, not necessarily be THE best; and it's generally accepted and expected that there must be someone to fall into the middle status.

 

I think what's interesting about immigrant communities is what they consider "success".  I had a Korean roommate in college who got into Harvard for graduate school to pursue a Ph.D. in history - and her parents scolded and nearly disowned her for changing her plans to attend law school...

[Angella Middleton]

Because even though we were "here" we were considered 3/5 of a person and not recognized fully as human beings, let alone as humans capable of intellectual advancement.

[Obatunji McKnight]

Disillusionment. Lack of a sense of agency. Different cultural community values. Realization that the system is inherently unfair.

 

This argument would make sense if there was a such thing as a level playing field. There is not. We can not divorce education and achievement from the whole culture. They are interdependent. An achievement gap exists upon racial lines because racial lines are how we view things in this country. Every subject we discuss is based upon racial generalities. That is because this country's culture was founded on nationalism/racism/inequality. So in any societal question an american asks regardless of the questioners race, has racial undertones because that is how we separate and define our society. If our country was based on people over 6ft vs people under 6ft, then we'd be asking how height difference affects the 'achievement gap'.

 

[tamara...@gmail.com]

I just had a conversation with a family member who teaches in the Charlotte, NC school system. I asked her this question regarding the achievement gap amongst Afro-Americans and Hispanics. Her response was "vocabulary". She said reading is everything. When foreigners come to US the first thing they do is learn the language and its the Academia language. She stated that in the homes of blacks there isn't a force to read and the language being used in the homes is a "keepin it real" slang. She said many of the test given to kids in school are majority reading questions... Even for math problems the kids have to read to solve problems and they don't speak the language. The language of Academia. By the time they read the paragraphs in english or the math problem over again after 5 tries... Time is up on the test and therefore a lower score. She urged me to tell all of my friends to discipline there children, read to them, or make them listen to a reading disc. She said read things like Sherlock holmes, Shakespear, and others to the children.

Any thoughts on this explanation from an educator??

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: Obatunji McKnight <obat...@gmail.com>

Sender: life...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:03:37 -0400

To: <life...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: life...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Group Discussion: ACHIEVMENT GAP

Disillusionment. Lack of a sense of agency. Different cultural community values. Realization that the system is inherently unfair.

 

This argument would make sense if there was a such thing as a level playing field. There is not. We can not divorce education and achievement from the whole culture. They are interdependent. An achievement gap exists upon racial lines because racial lines are how we view things in this country. Every subject we discuss is based upon racial generalities. That is because this country's culture was founded on nationalism/racism/inequality. So in any societal question an american asks regardless of the questioners race, has racial undertones because that is how we separate and define our society. If our country was based on people over 6ft vs people under 6ft, then we'd be asking how height difference affects the 'achievement gap'.

 

--

[Obatunji McKnight]

I think reading has a lot to do with standardized testing. In that aspect, she is correct. As far as scholastic achievement translates into overall life success, that's debateable. However an articulate well read person isn't always successful past school. In scholastic endeavors, vocabulary and reading comprehension matters a lot, but it's importance is greatly diminished in the adult work force. I'm fairly certain I can read and write competently, but it hasn't translated into better paying jobs or more success.

 

P.S. I was a huge Arthur Conan Doyle fan as a child, definitely read every single Sherlock mystery and most of the Tales of the Knights of the Round Table. I'm still very blue collar, if that...

[Jai Collier]

Reading made a difference for me in two ways. Aside from rapidly expanding my vocabulary and teaching me how to spell (facebook proves how many people are adults and cannot spell simple words); reading also made me feel like I could do ANYTHING. Even if your reality is limited, most characters in novels and the harvard classics share the theme of a conquering hero or heroin who overcomes great obstacles to achieve unmeasurable success. When you read enough of it, you start to believe it. Reading opens your mind to possibilities and perspectives on the world that you may never get at home. Foreign countries. Different cultures. Great people in history. Reading connects you to your world and your potential. My friend actually started a blog and book club dedicated specifically to getting children reading early and with purpose.

 

http://hartlynkids.blogspot.com/

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Obatunji McKnight <obat...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think reading has a lot to do with standardized testing. In that aspect, she is correct. As far as scholastic achievement translates into overall life success, that's debateable. However an articulate well read person isn't always successful past school. In scholastic endeavors, vocabulary and reading comprehension matters a lot, but it's importance is greatly diminished in the adult work force. I'm fairly certain I can read and write competently, but it hasn't translated into better paying jobs or more success.

 

P.S. I was a huge Arthur Conan Doyle fan as a child, definitely read every single Sherlock mystery and most of the Tales of the Knights of the Round Table. I'm still very blue collar, if that...

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[Frankela Albury]

I think reading is definitely a a good starter in having children learn more or possibly even do somewhat better in standardized testing.  But I don't think the art of reading covers why there is such an achievement gap in our society between races. 

 

Like Tamara, I'd like to hear from some educators and hear their opinions as they deal with these children on a daily basis.

[Faunya Estrada]

I think my brothers, sister & I are a testament to how important reading is to standardized testing and academic competency (not necessarily academic achievement, because there are other aspect, such as discipline, at play).  We all were educated in the NYC public school system, where the majority graduates without being able to write a complete sentence correctly.  However, we all always exceled at standardized tests and always read and wrote well above our grade level.  Our parents constantly read and so did we.

 

I also have a niece and nephew who grew up in the same household as we did.  The brother rarely read and the sister read quite a bit as a child.  The difference in their writing and comprehension ability vary greatly.

 

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Obatunji McKnight <obat...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think reading has a lot to do with standardized testing. In that aspect, she is correct. As far as scholastic achievement translates into overall life success, that's debateable. However an articulate well read person isn't always successful past school. In scholastic endeavors, vocabulary and reading comprehension matters a lot, but it's importance is greatly diminished in the adult work force. I'm fairly certain I can read and write competently, but it hasn't translated into better paying jobs or more success.

 

P.S. I was a huge Arthur Conan Doyle fan as a child, definitely read every single Sherlock mystery and most of the Tales of the Knights of the Round Table. I'm still very blue collar, if that...

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"Do what you can, with what you have, from where you are."
- Theodore Roosevelt

 

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[tamara...@gmail.com]

In the situation I presented to my cousin, I mentioned the split of classes, advanced vs. Non-advanced amongst students who started out together since elementary. Her reason for the AA kids not being in advanced classes is because of their reading skills and discipline levels.
Does being a great reader and having excellent vocabulary equate to a white collar worker? No, not at all... But in the school it does put u at an advantage.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: Faunya Estrada <faunya....@gmail.com>

Sender: life...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:21:37 -0400

To: <life...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: life...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Group Discussion: ACHIEVMENT GAP

[Angella Middleton]

...But what good is that advantage if it does not translate to life "success" (according to the typical American definition of the word)?  It's just not connecting.  Children who do well in English are expected or more likely to do well in school (according to this 'advantage' theory).  And children who do well in school are expected or at least more likely to do well in life?  Then shouldn't it also be true that those who do well in life also speak and use better English?  But, as you all have already pointed out, this is not necessarily true.  Is it possible that this is further proof that American children and public education system have missed the shift in the most marketable talents now being more connected to science and technology than to liberal arts?

 

I recently saw or read something on a news program where they were saying how insignificant writing and reading skills have become when concerning life success.  Looking for the story now online but I can't find it.  I'll pass it on if I do.

[Jai Collier]

OOO Angela!! Wonderful point!! There are lawyers getting put entirely out of business because their more tech saavy counterparts are more efficient, less expensive, and better connected. If youmiss the tech wagon you are for sure at a disadvantage. There are kids who can write html and other code as young as middle school. I'm not saying this is the only factor...but it's a great one. How many of us grew up with computers in our homes?

[Frankela Albury]

I thought this excerpt from http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/achievement-gap/:  Might help the discussion with why there's such an achievement gap amongst the races, apparently there's one among the genders as well.

See Below:

Achievement disparities are often attributed to socioeconomic factors. According to 2009 data from the Census Bureau, of all children younger than 18 living in families, 15.5 million live in poverty, defined as a family of four with less than $21,947 per year. This includes 4.9 million, or about 10 percent, of non-Hispanic white children, and one in three black and Hispanic children, at 4 million and 5.6 million, respectively (Annie E. Casey Foundation 2011). According to a seminal study of language development in 1995, by age 3, children in poverty have smaller vocabularies and lower language skills than children from middle-income families. Research has also shown that dropout rates tend to be higher for children who live in poverty. According to the U.S. Department of Education’s 2011 Condition of Education report, about 68 percent of 12th-graders in high-poverty schools graduated with a diploma in 2008, compared with 91 percent of 12th-graders in low-poverty schools (NCES, 2011). A recent study by the Annie E. Casey Foundation found that children who both live in poverty and read below grade level by 3rd grade are three times as likely to not graduate from high school as students who have never been poor (Hernandez, 2011).

Researchers have tried to pinpoint why race and class are such strong predictors of students’ educational attainment. In the 1990s, the controversial book, The Bell Curve, claimed that gaps in student achievement were the result of variation in students’ genetic makeup and natural ability—an assertion that has since been widely discredited. Many experts have since asserted that achievement gaps are the result of more subtle environmental factors and “opportunity gaps” in the resources available to poor versus wealthy children. Being raised in a low-income family, for example, often means having fewer educational resources at home, in addition to poor health care and nutrition. At the same time, studies have also found that children in poverty whose parents provide engaging learning environments at home do not start school with the same academic readiness gaps seen among poor children generally (U.S. Department of Education, 2000; Viadero, 2000, Sparks, 2011).