Boundaries versus Borders

Trevor Watkins

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Apr 29, 2024, 10:48:08 AMApr 29

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The issue of border control is somewhat contentious currently. Presidencies will be decided, elections lost, friends and families divided over this one issue.

A border is defined as “a line separating two countries,”. A boundary is defined as a line which marks the limits of an area. A border is specifically a concept attached to the nation-state. A boundary is much more flexible, but attached to the concept of property rights.

Should states restrict movement across their borders? Are individuals entitled to defend their property boundaries?

Borders

Borders are often arbitrary lines on a map, best demonstrated by many of the borders in Africa. They often cut through and divide societies, nationalities, even families. They need to be maintained, defended and enforced by the states enclosed within them, usually at great cost to the individuals in that state.

The justifications for well enforced borders seem so obvious to their advocates that they cannot conceive or tolerate an alternative. We can’t just let anyone in. We will be overwhelmed. They are not like us. They have different standards, religions, customs. They are poor so who will pay for them?

Lets deal with each of these issues:

We can’t just let anyone in

Turns out you can. The concept of a worldwide passport standard is relatively new, created in the aftermath of the First World War. Prior to that there was no consistent standard of border enforcement. A mediaeval peasant had more rights to travel freely than a modern citizen. America let millions of impoverished Europeans and others into the country in the 1900’s with only token restrictions. Huge refugee populations moved around Europe in the aftermath of world war 2. Millions of East Germans became citizens of West Germany after the collapse of the Berlin wall. The needs of desperate individuals trumps the protection of borders.

They are not like us

This is the rallying cry of fascists and racists through the ages. Ignoring the fact that everyone in the west is descended from just 22 wandering individuals in the stone age, nature itself values diversity of origin above uniformity. The reason we don’t marry our siblings and cousins is that they are TOO much like us. The whole point of travel is to meet people with different behaviours and customs, and to share ours. Uniformity is not just boring, it is genetically dangerous.

We will be overwhelmed

This has become a real fear for existing populations in the United States and Europe. Demagogues pound this drum constantly. Unscrupulous politicians and power brokers use emigration to bolster electoral support. At least 5% of any population consists of violent criminals and psychopaths, including emigrant populations.

How do we deal with the psychopaths in our existing population. We deploy about 15% of the population to police the dangerous 5%. In a civilised society, we identify them, try them and incarcerate the guilty. Why should we stop doing that just because they are emigrants?

Who will pay for them?

Most refugees start poor, but subsequent generations pay for themselves many times over. US statistics prove this true of many immigrant populations such as Jews, Italians, Greeks, Germans. However, if target destinations insist on giving free stuff to all and sundry, then many will take advantage of this misplaced compassion. If target destinations give a special pass to immigrants, or suspend the rule of law, they have only themselves to blame.

The morality of movement, the ethics of emigration

I believe in freedom and justice for ALL individuals, not just the ones who think and look like me. Except for Africans, we are all emigrants. All of our ancestors constantly moved into a new territory hoping to improve their circumstances, sometimes at a cost to the current occupants. Trying to pull up the drawbridge behind you is unjust hypocrisy. It is generally futile too. Resources you could have shared with the new arrivals are now spent fighting them, to the detriment of all.

Of course there is a profound difference between peaceful emigrants and hostile invaders. Invaders must be resisted, preferably long before they cross your borders. Throughout history nations have employed immigrant populations to help them defend their borders.

Nations that accept and incorporate migrants commonly survive and prosper. Nations that drive their populations to emigrate commonly fail. I am on the side of the individuals who are the meat in this sandwich, often through no fault of their own. Perhaps because I fear becoming an emigrant from a failing state soon…

Boundaries

A boundary marks the limits of physical property you legally acquire and own. It is your responsibility to define and defend your boundaries. Property defined by boundaries is the basis of the free market system, and by implication, individual freedom. It does not require state intervention, but it may be forced upon the owner, like so many other injustices.

Disputes over property boundaries will be resolved by the systems native to that society, from negotiation to outright lawfare. The state may become involved because of its mandate for violence, but is not intrinsically necessary, as can be seen in many state-free jurisdictions.

In a truly free society, property rights will be protected by boundaries enforced by owners. Currently. Borders are simply imaginary lines enclosing land claimed by a state entity.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 29, 2024, 8:08:20 PMApr 29

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Some observations:

- The "rights" in "property rights" assumes some higher authority, presumably government. So does "legally". Those two words make this a minarchist rather than anarchist position.

- Owned by [the] people and owned by the government are not the same thing. There are no private borders or public fences. This seems to be your central point and I agree with that.

- If an influx of people means more mouths to feed rather than more hands to work, then that means you have a welfare system... and like The Chicks said: "There's your trouble".

Otherwise an excellent summary. I can definitely get behind your statement. If I voted, you would have mine.

S.

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Erik Peers

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:18:13 AMApr 30

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You have clearly not been personally, physically, threatened by Nigerians in your own country. Had your own police threaten you personally when you are in conflict with a Nigerian. Not had Nigerians defraud you. Not had Nigerians destroy property value within a whole complex and then buy it up cheaply. I have experienced all the above.

Some cultures assimilate. Others, like Nigerians do not.

I first became involved with them when one gave me a sob story that he was being discriminated against. So, being pure of mind and heart I rented him a flat. He melted the stove, burned the carpets, sublet, laid criminal charges against me, threatened me physically, had the police intimidate me.

Not having learned my lesson, and not wanting to be prejudiced, I did business with another. Similar result. I decided that that these were just two individuals and that I should not generalise.

So I let an apartment to others. After they moved in they told me that contracts with non Niherians were simply pieces of paper. They then proceeded not to pay rent. And then told me "We will get the Nigerian mafia after you." So I laid a charge of intimidation at the police. So the Nigerian came to Sandton Poloce station and said in front of the policeman "If you don't drop those charges you will be in trouble"

Another Nigerian told me he could get whatever paperwork I needed from a guy in town.

I could write a book. Then one day I realised that if I stopped doing business with them I would be safer and would be defrauded of less money, and not have my landlords screaming at me, and not have the SA Police threatening me.

So now when I hear the accent, I simply ask for the legally required FICA documentation. After I receive it I trace the con, the inaccuracies, and report this back to them. They deny everything but I say that I may not continue as they have not given me valid documents. They then threaten. I then block them. Then they report me to various authorities. I then handle that.

You let them into the guesthouse you manage. Let them wreck the place, not pay and then lay charges against you at the police, and then intimidate you in your own property. Then tell me that I am a racist. Then I will believe you.

Petrus Potgieter

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:32:19 AMApr 30

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My view is closer to that of Eric's. A society, even a libertarian one, needs borders i.e. there has to be a price of entry. In the golden age of no passports 100 (and more) years ago the price of entry was the ticket which was hugely expensive compared to today. The travel itself signalled commitment because it was a huge price that was not refundable.

I am all for replacing borders by ticket barriers though. For SA, I would put the price around R100k or upward, refundable as a tax deduction or 100% minus a daily fee if you leave. Let Mastercard administer it. Can have different plans e.g. only R50k deposit but higher daily fee and so on.

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Trevor Watkins

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Apr 30, 2024, 5:35:53 AMApr 30

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ERIK, you clearly don't know my history.

It's the old problem - do you judge people by the content of their character, or their colour or origin. Yes, there is such a thing as national characteristics (don't hire an Irishman for a brewery job), but they are generally unscientific and offensive. Feel free to harbour personal biases, and let these shape your interactions with some people. As Sowell and others have pointed out, restricting your client base because of bias commonly affects you more than them.

The worst guests we had in the guest house were from Finland. They complained constantly, smoked in the house, stole from the fridge, soiled the sheets, then left an awful review. The most fun guests were large parties of coloured guests, who usually left the place impeccable. Go figure.

Trevor Watkins
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Garth Zietsman

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Apr 30, 2024, 5:40:44 AMApr 30

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I have changed from being a totally open borders guy to being pro borders and immigration restriction. My reason is mainly to do with the cultural threat. Firstly Western European culture is just great. Secondly individualism, individual rights and freedom and libertarianism all have their origins and home in that culture. Thirdly, many immigrants don't like that culture and a) have no intention of assimilating to it, b) hate it and c) hypocritically want to live off its benefits.

My other reason is that most of these new immigrants (and their descendents - so yes it might be genetic) will end up being net burdens to the host country over their full lifespans. Some Scandinavian countries have calculated this (I can give you the study references if you are interested). I like the libertarian idea that any of us individuals have the right to invite foreigners to our property/businesses etc instead of locals, but I also believe that if you do you must be take full responsibility for them and not simply unleash them on the rest of us when you no longer wish to associate with each other.

Contrary to woke American opinion, diversity is not a strength and is mostly a source of strife. Countries that thrive in spite of diversity are probably strong but for the same reasons peacock's tail signals rather than causes his overall strength.

Erik Peers

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Apr 30, 2024, 6:00:00 AMApr 30

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My worst tenant ever was a middle aged white male. My best tenant ever was an Indian female. Colour is not relevant. I share your experience not about Finns, but French. Just individuals who are exceptions to their country of origin.

However there are cultural groups have a consistently different regard to contracts, for instance. Not all, but one needs to assess from experience. I have rented to Nigerians who have been excellent tenants, but these have been professionals with masters degrees. The average however, have a different approach to law and contract.

Just as I take into account credit record, conduct of bank account, employment record, salary, marital status, age, when assessing a tenant's application, plus family size, number of pets, propensity to violence; it would be remiss of me not to consider the prospective tenant's attitude to the rule of law.

Stastically the probability of having a bad Nigerian tenant is so high that it is neither prejudiced nor irrational for landlords to prefer non Nigerian tenants. Different cultures exist. Wishing does not make it not so.

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Garth Zietsman

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Apr 30, 2024, 6:25:39 AMApr 30

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Stereotypes/national characteristics are not unscientific. In general they reflect average characteristics and differences, which is what we focus on in most scientific research. In fact, stereotypes are very accurate and provide much useful (if not life saving) information when you don't have individual information. I can give you references to studies on stereotype accuracy if you are interested. It is unreasonable to expect people not to use any information they have when they have no individual information. The fact that you may be mistaken about an individual doesn't mean it is unreasonable to take discriminatory precautions based on some kind of statistical/probabilistic info. For example, if you are a woman worried about assault you should be more cautious of male than female strangers even if most men are actually safe.

If the information is accurate the offensiveness ought to be irrelevant.

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Colin Phillips

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Apr 30, 2024, 7:43:50 AMApr 30

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Chesterton's border fence...

https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

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Garth Zietsman

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:15:35 AMApr 30

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Very interesting idea. Should be compulsory learning for every politician and government functionary. RCT studies of policies should be routine too.

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:21:45 AMApr 30

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"... in your own country."

So you're a nationalist. Ok.

You don't have a country. The country has you.

Stephen.

On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:27:07 AMApr 30

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"... a society... needs borders"

So you're a socialist. Ok.

Societies consist of individuals and each individual is different and unique. There can be no such thing as a "Libertarian society", since (as evidence by this thread) even Libertarians are different from each other.

Privatizing government will still be government, but now a for-profit government. That's not helpful - you need liberty i.e. choice... and what you're suggesting below is limiting choice by economic means rather than force.

Stephen.

On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:32, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

My view is closer to that of Eric's. A society, even a libertarian one, needs borders i.e. there has to be a price of entry. In the golden age of no passports 100 (and more) years ago the price of entry was the ticket which was hugely expensive compared to today. The travel itself signalled commitment because it was a huge price that was not refundable.

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:33:00 AMApr 30

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"but I also believe that if you do you must be take full responsibility for them"

Interesting idea... who would "enforce" that rule ? Would the market do it spontaneously ?

Stephen.

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Erik Peers

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:38:34 AMApr 30

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Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the argument.

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:39:45 AMApr 30

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Ok, let's concede for a moment that all uneducated Nigerians look the same and let's also concede for a moment that you would be better off personally and individually if that group of people were forcibly removed and excluded from entering "your" country. Is it conceivable that someone else may be in such a dire economic situation that those people were their only customers i.e. some other guy would be willing to scrape the bottom of the barrel ? Is it conceivable that someone else is worse off because of them being kicked out ? How about those Nigerians themselves - are they better off for being kicked out ? I'm asking because your argument seems anecdotal and emotional rather than objective and general.

Stephen.

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:44:33 AMApr 30

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Ok, let's say that's all true and racism is the basis for good decision-making... that still does not justify or explain centralization of that decision-making process to national government, surely ? If you want to band together with some neighbours and create a racist home owners association and keep out non-members, that's rather different from you telling me my friend Hugo the Frenchman is not allowed to visit me on my private property because of your biases. Your biases may be fine for you, but let me have mine. No need to nationalize it.

Stephen.

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Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:47:24 AMApr 30

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I have no problem with fences, just like I have no problem with roads or electricity generation or schools. I only have a problem with those things being done by a central government.

Stephen.

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Hügo Krüger

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Apr 30, 2024, 8:52:43 AMApr 30

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I am not sure about this, my general sense is that immigrants outperform the host nation.

The european immigrant threat is totally blown put of proportion.

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Petrus Potgieter

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Apr 30, 2024, 9:41:54 AMApr 30

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I have not been called a socialist since about 1985 and accept the slur as an indication that I am not (as many would suggest) completely on the fringe. ;-)

Any social arrangement (including a libertarian[ish] dispensation) needs exactly that – a social consensus among a finite number of people that is probably not going to include all the planet and that will have to include a mechanism for keeping some people out. Every club worth beloning to has a fee and rules. I agree however that immigration can be very good for a society and often a necessity. I just think that some restrictions are a practical part of a consensus.

Since you are living on the Great Plains (or close to them), do you think that American Indian society benefited form the immigration of millions of Europeans or was it (as some would suggest) perhaps destroyed by it? What about Tibet and Han immigration?

I am not saying that I have a good definition of what "society" is or that I would elevate it (like Danie Goosen, these past few weeks, or Viktor Orbán or Vladimir Putin) to some exalted podium. Nevertheless, human behaviour is to a large extent not simply economically rational but also highly social. I find that the denying of the actual existence of society by some libertarians to be perilously close to the "let's construct an new world from scratch" thinking of communist idealists.

My understanding is that Argentina probably has the closest thing to open immigration of all medium (or bigger) sized countries. It does not appear to be a problem but/and it is not quite as simple as flying there and settling down. I could easily be convinced that Argentina has a healthy approach to the issue.

Op 30-04-2024 om 06:26:52 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:25:19 AMApr 30

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Well, no, that's the central point of the argument. The country does not belong to you - it is public property i.e. it does not belong to the public, but to the government - a mob-like organization which claims legitimacy through a token display of majority might-makes-right balloting at enormously long time-intervals of a very small select little part of it's so-called wards. And you want those guys to ensure your safety and happiness.

Let's say that keeping the pesky Nigerians "out" of some nebulous thing defined by some arbitrary lines on the ground is a legitimate goal... and let's say that this goal is supremely important to you personally... then why on earth would you want to put the responsibility for that important goal in the hands of the same people who run the traffic department, SAA, SAPO, Eskom and numerous other failed organizations ?

If I wanted some people kept away from me, the very last group of people I would want to entrust with that role would be Home Affairs.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:26:14 AMApr 30

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Same in Canada - immigrants get blamed for skyrocketing housing costs, but I can tell you exactly what's causing that problem and it's not immigrants.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:31:08 AMApr 30

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Actually, I seem to be out of practice with this kind of debate... I just realized that my argument below is 100% utilitarian - oops. So let me retract that last post except for "your argument seems anecdotal and emotional rather than objective and general". Can you try to phrase your argument in more general, principled and less anecdotal terms ?

S.

Trevor Watkins

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:32:48 AMApr 30

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Red below

Trevor Watkins
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 15:41, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

I have not been called a socialist since about 1985 and accept the slur as an indication that I am not (as many would suggest) completely on the fringe. ;-)

Any social arrangement (including a libertarian[ish] dispensation) needs exactly that – a social consensus among a finite number of people that is probably not going to include all the planet and that will have to include a mechanism for keeping some people out. Every club worth beloning to has a fee and rules. I agree however that immigration can be very good for a society and often a necessity. I just think that some restrictions are a practical part of a consensus.

The HarmConsentRule (HCR)/Consent axiom/NAP are examples of a commonly agreed set of rules that members of a community might adopt. People who do not agree to these rules would not become members of this community (self excluded). But do you really need a mechanism for rule-accepters to be excluded. Why not just allow the community to grow and perhaps split organically.

Since you are living on the Great Plains (or close to them), do you think that American Indian society benefited form the immigration of millions of Europeans or was it (as some would suggest) perhaps destroyed by it? What about Tibet and Han immigration?

These societies were effectively invaded and lost. Moral: don't lose.

I am not saying that I have a good definition of what "society" is or that I would elevate it (like Danie Goosen, these past few weeks, or Viktor Orbán or Vladimir Putin) to some exalted podium. Nevertheless, human behaviour is to a large extent not simply economically rational but also highly social. I find that the denying of the actual existence of society by some libertarians to be perilously close to the "let's construct an new world from scratch" thinking of communist idealists.

Worked quite well for the founding fathers. Just need a bit of simplification and broadening of the rules.

My understanding is that Argentina probably has the closest thing to open immigration of all medium (or bigger) sized countries. It does not appear to be a problem but/and it is not quite as simple as flying there and settling down. I could easily be convinced that Argentina has a healthy approach to the issue.

Portugal, Ireland, a few others have enlightened immigration rules.

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Petrus Potgieter

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Apr 30, 2024, 11:50:17 AMApr 30

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Thank you for the thoughtful comments. I am all for the founding fathers of the USA and I think that they managed to hit a good balance between being a bit radical and being quite conservative with the conservatism being dominant – in my mind (and I am far from an expert) they wanted to protect the society which had by that time already arisen in the 13 colonies, not reform it.

The Consent Axiom is very good and well but I don't see how it helps me keep non-Consent people out of my house... As an abstract principle it is great, though.

Do we agree that Tibet has been largely destroyed by Han migration which amounted to it having been "effectively invaded"?

To be clear: I am all for liberal immigration and 100% in favour of regularising the status of the many millions of people who have been living in SA for many years but are unable to register their children's birth and so on. I am also uncomfortable about the term "illegal resident" because what can be illegal about residing? The crime involved would be illegally crossing the border (or overstaying a visa) and I think it is unnecessary to demonise people by calling their existence illegal.

I am also 100% in favour of Erik doing whatever works for him in his life and business. If it is discriminating against Nigerians, that is OK – since I determine myself when and where I discriminate against categories of people, I would have no business telling other people when they should or should not do so.

Op 30-04-2024 om 16:32:31 +0200 skryf Trevor Watkins bas...@gmail.com:
> Red below
> Trevor Watkins
> [1]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> [3]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > "... a society... needs borders"
> >
> > So you're a socialist. Ok.
> >
> > Societies consist of individuals and each individual is different
> and unique. There can be no such thing as a "Libertarian society",
> since (as evidence by this thread) even Libertarians are different
> from each other.
> >
> > Privatizing government will still be government, but now a
> for-profit government. That's not helpful - you need liberty i.e.
> choice... and what you're suggesting below is limiting choice by
> economic means rather than force.
> >
> > Stephen.
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:32, Petrus Potgieter

> <[4]pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:
> >
> > My view is closer to that of Eric's. A society, even a
> libertarian one, needs borders i.e. there has to be a price of
> entry. In the golden age of no passports 100 (and more) years ago
> the price of entry was the ticket which was hugely expensive
> compared to today. The travel itself signalled commitment because it
> was a huge price that was not refundable.
> >
> > I am all for replacing borders by ticket barriers though. For SA,
> I would put the price around R100k or upward, refundable as a tax
> deduction or 100% minus a daily fee if you leave. Let Mastercard
> administer it. Can have different plans e.g. only R50k deposit but
> higher daily fee and so on.
> >
> >
> > Op 29-04-2024 om 17:36:59 +0200 skryf Erik Peers

> [5]erik...@gmail.com:

> > > send an email to [2][7]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >

> [3][8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-899
> 3-2
> > > e6422626687n%[9]40googlegroups.com.

> > >
> > > --
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> it, send

> > > an email to [4][10]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >

> [5][11]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFAb
> NzCXf0F
> > > mpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[12]40mail.gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:[13]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 2. mailto:[14]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 3.
> [15]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 4. mailto:[16]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 5.
> [17]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer

> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [18]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> [19]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjCee4AMdaEO4jGU%40adama
> stor.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> [21]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/73B654EE-C2CA-429A-987D-
> 1653DC7FDF9F%40gmail.com.

> --
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> [23]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjD1Gud7KWSFJXQa%40adama
> stor.

>
> --
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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:06:41 PMApr 30

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Book recommendation: https://www.amazon.ca/1491-Second-Revelations-Americas-Columbus/dp/1400032059

Just like there are no black people in Africa, there are no Indians in North America. There are Xhosa and Zulu and Tswana and Sotho and Pedi and Swahili in Africa... and over here there are Blackfoot and Cree and Nakoda Sioux and Chipewyan... some of these groups overlap, between each other and in that there are both Zulu and Nakoda Sioux accountants, there are Tswana lawyers and Blackfoot lawyers. If you think accountants and lawyers are not cultures, you have clearly never played golf.

Before the Portuguese arrived these nations had interactions which were sometimes peaceful... but for the most part they were separated by language, culture, tradition, etc. amongst each other much like in the rest of the world. The Portuguese found a continent here so filled to the brim with people of all sorts, that they did not land - they turned around and went back to Portugal. By the time the Spanish arrived, most of those people (about 93%) had been killed by European illnesses.

So;

a) The link between geography and demography is incidental at best - it is about the people, not the place. How do you put a border around people ? The Apartheid government tried and failed miserably. The folks on that side of the Zambezi are just as much Tswana as those on this side of the river... So why lump them inside the circle with those other very different people far away in the Knysna forest ?

b) We can exclude the Chinese all we like, but their Covid will come regardless. Some things cannot be stopped - good or bad. The threat might come as a virus attached to a Chinese person, but it may just as well come hitching a ride on your new iPhone. Isolation is no longer possible and has not been since about 1492. The good and bad cannot inform policy, it can only be a demographic observation.

Libertarians can form a society in the sense that we're all more or less libertarian and though we might disagree on the specifics and nuances of monetary policy or borders or the rule of law, we can all agree that socialism is an immoral abomination... but our "society" is a private one, which we can opt into or out of... it is not a society in the socialist, statist, national border kind of way... I cannot opt out of a border.

S.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjD1Gud7KWSFJXQa%40adamastor.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:17:56 PMApr 30

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"The Consent Axiom is very good and well but I don't see how it helps me keep non-Consent people out of my house"

Are you expecting the Consent Axiom to become the law of the land and for the omnipotent rulers to do the enforcing for you ? This is the challenge most people have with concepts of liberty... freedom means it's you on your own out in the wild... and you can freely band together with others if you like, but that normally comes at a price. You have to pay ADT to come defend your your house against non-consenters - it doesn't happen by magic. Some people do believe in magic and free protection and costless safety - we call them socialists and we know they also pay the price, often at the expense of both freedom and safety.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:28:11 PMApr 30

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So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept out of some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a practical example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the majority of the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out those minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case, the RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as a result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look at Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody lighter than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and move back to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's called BBBBEEEE... nevermind.

S.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Apr 30, 2024, 3:57:31 PMApr 30

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In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South Africa you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.

With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would be like to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.

For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than the one receiving the "free" healthcare ?

What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on the other side of that border ?

What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a country which banned abortions ?

What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum wage ?

S.

Petrus Potgieter

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Apr 30, 2024, 4:43:52 PMApr 30

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The deaths from diseases were real but there are different takes on it, e.g. the following.

Jones, T. L., Schwitalla, A. W., Pilloud, M. A., Johnson, J. R., Paine, R. R., & Codding, B. F. (2021). Historic and bioarchaeological evidence supports late onset of post-Columbian epidemics in Native California. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 118(28), e2024802118.

According to other sources that I have seen, estimates for the (central) Mexico region are that it took more than 100 years for the (around 90%) collapse in population to occur after European contact and much of it is not understood well at all.

When I think about borders: rather not going out and leaving the complex gate open for the night and I shall have a very non-consensual disagreement with anyone who does.

Op 30-04-2024 om 13:06:26 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:
> Book
> recommendation: [1]https://www.amazon.ca/1491-Second-Revelations-Americ
> as-Columbus/dp/1400032059

> <[2]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> [3]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > "... a society... needs borders"
> >
> > So you're a socialist. Ok.
> >
> > Societies consist of individuals and each individual is different
> and unique. There can be no such thing as a "Libertarian society",
> since (as evidence by this thread) even Libertarians are different
> from each other.
> >
> > Privatizing government will still be government, but now a
> for-profit government. That's not helpful - you need liberty i.e.
> choice... and what you're suggesting below is limiting choice by
> economic means rather than force.
> >
> > Stephen.
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:32, Petrus Potgieter

> <[4]pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:
> >
> > My view is closer to that of Eric's. A society, even a
> libertarian one, needs borders i.e. there has to be a price of
> entry. In the golden age of no passports 100 (and more) years ago
> the price of entry was the ticket which was hugely expensive
> compared to today. The travel itself signalled commitment because it
> was a huge price that was not refundable.
> >
> > I am all for replacing borders by ticket barriers though. For SA,
> I would put the price around R100k or upward, refundable as a tax
> deduction or 100% minus a daily fee if you leave. Let Mastercard
> administer it. Can have different plans e.g. only R50k deposit but
> higher daily fee and so on.
> >
> >
> > Op 29-04-2024 om 17:36:59 +0200 skryf Erik Peers

> [5]erik...@gmail.com:

> > > send an email to [2][7]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >

> [3][8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-899
> 3-2
> > > e6422626687n%[9]40googlegroups.com.
> > >

> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > > an email to [4][10]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >

> [5][11]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFAb
> NzCXf0F
> > > mpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[12]40mail.gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:[13]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 2. mailto:[14]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 3.
> [15]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 4. mailto:[16]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 5.
> [17]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> >

> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [18]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> [19]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjCee4AMdaEO4jGU%40adama
> stor.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [20]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> [21]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/73B654EE-C2CA-429A-987D-
> 1653DC7FDF9F%40gmail.com.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [22]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [23]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjD1Gud7KWSFJXQa%40adama
> stor.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> an email to [24]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [25]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S4LN6ZAoa7%2B%3Dp%2BZ
> WjPHhV_S9uDLUU%3DOgVZvD-HC9CMCYw%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.amazon.ca/1491-Second-Revelations-Americas-Columbus/dp/1400032059

> 25. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S4LN6ZAoa7+=p+ZWjPHhV_S9uDLUU=OgVZvD-...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Petrus Potgieter

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Apr 30, 2024, 5:03:31 PMApr 30

to li...@googlegroups.com

Point taken and, honestly, ugly things can happen almost any time, I fear. I would of course never advocate for the removal from the country of anyone who has been here some arbitrarily determined long-ish time. My proposal to take a deposit at the border would remove the need for most violence in this regard BTW.

Regarding the morality of the border: I have a border 50m from me where some group of people further up the street formed a committee and closed off the street which I used to use for recreation and going from A to B. It is quite inconvenient for me but I do not (and I guess most on this conversation do not) consider it a great moral outrage. Why is it a great moral outrage if the people of Namibia formed a committee (a.k.a. parliament) and put up a fence to keep me out then?

For me, it is an entirely pragmatic issue. If you advocate overthrowing the state(s) and forming new gangs to keep unwanted people out of my house, I would respond by saying that I see no reason to believe that the end result will be better than what we have now – the result of an earlier such process.

If I look around me and see the "informal settlement" in my immediate vicinity, with the attendant threat to my safety, it is going to be hard to sell the "fewer borders" idea, even to me. And judging by the number of fences and gates going up, South Africans are of one mind on this issue. Some members of this community excepted.

Op 30-04-2024 om 13:57:16 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

> In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South Africa
> you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would be like
> to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than the one
> receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on the
> other side of that border ?
> What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a country
> which banned abortions ?
> What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum wage ?
> S.
>
> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> <[1]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

>
> So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept out of
> some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a practical
> example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the majority of
> the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out those
> minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case, the
> RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as a
> result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look at
> Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody lighter
> than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and move back
> to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's called
> BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> S.
>
> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> <[2]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

>
> Well, no, that's the central point of the argument. The country does
> not belong to you - it is public property i.e. it does not belong to
> the public, but to the government - a mob-like organization which
> claims legitimacy through a token display of majority might-makes-right
> balloting at enormously long time-intervals of a very small select
> little part of it's so-called wards. And you want those guys to ensure
> your safety and happiness.
> Let's say that keeping the pesky Nigerians "out" of some nebulous thing
> defined by some arbitrary lines on the ground is a legitimate goal...
> and let's say that this goal is supremely important to you
> personally... then why on earth would you want to put the
> responsibility for that important goal in the hands of the same people
> who run the traffic department, SAA, SAPO, Eskom and numerous other
> failed organizations ?
> If I wanted some people kept away from me, the very last group of
> people I would want to entrust with that role would be Home Affairs.
> S.
>

> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 06:38 het Erik Peers <[3]erik...@gmail.com>

> geskryf:
>
> Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the argument.

> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQcq3l
> JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ <[4]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> "... in your own country."
> So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> You don't have a country. The country has you.
> Stephen.

> send an email to [7]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2
> e6422626687n%40googlegroups.com.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> an email to [9]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [10]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFAbNzCXf0
> Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
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> send an email to [11]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

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> [12]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 9B4E1CC2C861%40gmail.com.

>
> --
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> [14]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> an email to [15]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

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> [16]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5%2BnV
> SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 5. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 8. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 9. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 10. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0Fmpq30...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 11. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 12. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 13. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 14. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPcN8E=94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 15. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 16. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+nV...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Stephen vJ

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Apr 30, 2024, 10:37:31 PMApr 30

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Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them. We can still debate how else those products and services could be rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders, I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes, public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now or in the foreseeable future.

Stephen.

On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

Point taken and, honestly, ugly things can happen almost any time, I fear. I would of course never advocate for the removal from the country of anyone who has been here some arbitrarily determined long-ish time. My proposal to take a deposit at the border would remove the need for most violence in this regard BTW.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.
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Erik Peers

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May 1, 2024, 1:31:41 AMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice where Libertarianism is tested.

It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money. The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other bullies will come and eat your lunch.

This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

Trevor Watkins

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May 1, 2024, 7:34:09 AMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

Western Cape

I guess most folk, libertarians included, would be outraged if we had border controls between existing SA provinces. However, if the Western Cape were to secede, would we be OK with strict border controls to restrict the undoubted flood of economic migrants that would result. We would be fulfilling every black South African's worst nightmare as to what would happen if the whiteys won power. Charging for entry would be no different.

What is to be done?

Trevor Watkins

bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2yRgDDWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

John Pretorius

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May 1, 2024, 7:58:20 AMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

The solution to all immigration problems is to eliminate all the free stuff - free housing, social grants, pensions, government education and medical services. How to replace them is a discussion for another day.

The people coming for the free stuff will stop coming. The rest are exactly the kind of people who will enrich our society. Whether they are legal or not will be increasingly unimportant.

John Pretorius

13 Olive Lane, Morningside, Sandton 2196, South Africa

+27 83 231 5025
+27 11 784 5546

jrp...@gmail.com

From: li...@googlegroups.com <li...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 01 May 2024 13:33
To: li...@googlegroups.com <li...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Libsa] Boundaries versus Borders

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2Lm%2Be4-aG6Nu6WggqgXx56W7%3D7T9v%3DQwfWOM238s3MhtGg%40mail.gmail.com.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 1, 2024, 11:17:38 AMMay 1

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I think you're mixing up two distinct problems. Just because you need protection does not imply or infer that you need government, just like your need for medicine or education does not infer that government should run schools and hospitals. We can agree that protection is desirable and then debate the various solutions and conclude that ADT or Chubb or G4S could fill the role of bully much better than government, while at the same time knowing that SAPS will never be dissolved in practice. Petrus made the statement below that Home Affairs will forever be the ones keeping people out and I'm saying that this might be true in practice, but that does not mean we cannot debate a better way the world might conceivably work. Just because the NHI is inevitable does not mean we agree with it or that we abandon discussion of all the alternatives. Those are two different things. You can get your protection and in practice you'll be getting it from government whether you like it or not... but that's not what this group is here to discuss.

S.

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Erik Peers

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May 1, 2024, 12:23:27 PMMay 1

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Biden is busy flying in migrants to specific swing states to boost his electoral chances.

Or another scenario: what if a highly populated group of people, from a country (they exist whether we like it or not) decide to move to an area where a homogeneous group of people are happily continuing their lives according to their culture. The new group outnumber the original group and take over completely.

Where does that leave the original group?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Petrus Potgieter

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May 1, 2024, 1:01:14 PMMay 1

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In the US, non-citizens do not vote but I don't know how they check it because they don't have Home Affairs. The electoral rolls are a state matter (possibly even at lower level) though.

Regarding Home Affairs, I would be happy (first of all) to have them out of my life. It is not likely though and I have recently experienced how you need to fill in a Home Affairs form even after you are dead – which you obviously do by having your (now cold) fingerprint applied to form DHA-1366 (or something like that). I am very much for the state and everybody else assuming that everyone actually here is "legal" and entitled to carry on with their lives. The idea that your whole life can be upended by changing an entry in a database in Pretoria (and this happens to thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people every year) is frightening and surreal.

The scenario which Erik describes has happened (e.g. Russian settlement of Siberia) and I think that the only possible response is a pragmatic one. I would certainly not be particularly inclined to support such a demographic takeover on the basis of the rights of the populous group to move wherever they want. Nevertheless, there are cases where I suggest accepting the inevitable, e.g. the take-over by Muslim Indonesians from the other islands in Indonesian New Guinea. I am still sentimental about Tibet but it is likely there is nothing to do about it.

Op 01-05-2024 om 18:23:10 +0200 skryf Erik Peers erik...@gmail.com:

> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 23:31 het Erik Peers <[2]erik...@gmail.com>

> geskryf:
>
> Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice
> where Libertarianism is tested.
> It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no
> government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money.
> The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other
> bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

> On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ, <[3]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and
> philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to
> any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns
> and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of
> the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax
> there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and
> healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them.
> We can still debate how else those products and services could be
> rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders,
> I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes,
> public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in
> practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can
> still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now
> or in the foreseeable future.
> Stephen.
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter

> [5]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South
> Africa
> > you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> > With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would
> be like
> > to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> > For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than
> the one
> > receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> > What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on
> the
> > other side of that border ?
> > What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a
> country
> > which banned abortions ?
> > What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum
> wage ?
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[1][6]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> >
> > So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept
> out of
> > some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a
> practical
> > example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the
> majority of
> > the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out
> those
> > minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case,
> the
> > RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as
> a
> > result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look
> at
> > Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody
> lighter
> > than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and
> move back
> > to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's
> called
> > BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[2][7]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> <[3][8]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the
> argument.
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> q3l
> > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> <[4][9]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> > "... in your own country."
> > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > Stephen.
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > send an email to [7][12]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [8][13]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 93-2
> > e6422626687n%[14]40googlegroups.com.

> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
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> > an email to [9][15]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [10][16]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFA
> bNzCXf0
> > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[17]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [12][19]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > 9B4E1CC2C861%[20]40gmail.com.

> >
> > --
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> it,

> > send an email to [13][21]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [14][22]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[23]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [16][25]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> Y5%2BnV
> > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[26]40mail.gmail.com.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[27]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 2. mailto:[28]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 3. mailto:[29]erik...@gmail.com
> > 4. mailto:[30]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 5. mailto:[31]erik...@gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[32]bas...@gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[33]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 8.
> [34]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 9. mailto:[35]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 10.
> [36]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 11. mailto:[37]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 12.
> [38]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 13. mailto:[39]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 14.
> [40]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> N8E=94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 15. mailto:[41]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 16.
> [42]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+n
> VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer

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> [44]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40adama
> stor.

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> [46]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-
> 4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

>
> --
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> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [48]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2yRgD
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
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> [50]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6
> UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
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> an email to [51]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [52]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J%3D
> rrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org

Petrus Potgieter

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May 1, 2024, 1:06:26 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

I am OK with WC putting up borders and won't go Yugoslav about it but I would suggest some economic migration will go the other way as people realize that companies pay tax where HQ is, i.e. mainly in Johannesburg. Despite all the negative aspects of the setup, the EU has actually been a pretty good solution to these issues in Europa. But it does require an awful lot of paperwork. Fortunately they have Germans to actually do it.

Op 01-05-2024 om 13:33:52 +0200 skryf Trevor Watkins bas...@gmail.com:

> Western Cape
> I guess most folk, libertarians included, would be outraged if we had
> border controls between existing SA provinces. However, if the Western
> Cape were to secede, would we be OK with strict border controls to
> restrict the undoubted flood of economic migrants that would result. We
> would be fulfilling every black South African's worst nightmare as to
> what would happen if the whiteys won power. Charging for entry would be
> no different.
> What is to be done?
> Trevor Watkins

> [1]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

>
> On Wed, 1 May 2024 at 07:31, Erik Peers <[2]erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice
> where Libertarianism is tested.
> It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no
> government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money.
> The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other
> bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

> On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ, <[3]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and
> philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to
> any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns
> and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of
> the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax
> there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and
> healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them.
> We can still debate how else those products and services could be
> rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders,
> I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes,
> public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in
> practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can
> still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now
> or in the foreseeable future.
> Stephen.
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter

> [5]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South
> Africa
> > you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> > With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would
> be like
> > to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> > For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than
> the one
> > receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> > What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on
> the
> > other side of that border ?
> > What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a
> country
> > which banned abortions ?
> > What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum
> wage ?
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[1][6]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> >
> > So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept
> out of
> > some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a
> practical
> > example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the
> majority of
> > the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out
> those
> > minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case,
> the
> > RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as
> a
> > result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look
> at
> > Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody
> lighter
> > than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and
> move back
> > to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's
> called
> > BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[2][7]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> <[3][8]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the
> argument.
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> q3l
> > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> <[4][9]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> > "... in your own country."
> > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > Stephen.
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > send an email to [7][12]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [8][13]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 93-2
> > e6422626687n%[14]40googlegroups.com.
> >

> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > an email to [9][15]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [10][16]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFA
> bNzCXf0
> > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[17]40mail.gmail.com.
> >

> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
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> > send an email to [11][18]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [12][19]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > 9B4E1CC2C861%[20]40gmail.com.
> >

> > --
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> > send an email to [13][21]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [14][22]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[23]40mail.gmail.com.
> >

> > --
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> [44]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40adama
> stor.

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> 4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

>
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> [48]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2yRgD
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

>
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> [50]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2Lm%2Be4-aG6Nu6WggqgXx
> 56W7%3D7T9v%3DQwfWOM238s3MhtGg%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 2. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 5. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 9. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 12. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 13. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2
> 14. http://40googlegroups.com/

> 15. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 50. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2Lm+e4-aG6Nu6WggqgXx56W7=7T9v=QwfWOM23...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Petrus Potgieter

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May 1, 2024, 1:16:04 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

This is a very good point. I am always amused by the fact the the refugees pass through four (+) safe and relatively pleasant countries (starting with Turkey) to reach Germany where the free stuff is. Fairly recently, I was on a local train in Berlin, watching a blond ticket inspector going around and seeing the refugees pulling out their permits for free travel. The look on her face was priceless but somehow actually sad.

It is debatable whether in SA we have "too many" people coming despite the lack of free stuff. I am not sure about it but I am sure that we have the wrong mix – we should be getting more Kenyan, Ukrainian and Russian software engineers and fewer Mozambican criminals. In the case of SA, I would not be much against a free immigration system for this reason but I am not sure enough to be a strong advocate of it.

So, in the absence of a natural experiment (e.g. Germany simply stopping all state aid for refugees) that I know of, I am not completely sure it is a full solution. Denmark might be a good example though, I just don't know much about it. They still have the Cross in the passport and for citizenship it is an actual requirement to shake the hand of the mayor which sorts out the assimilation issue in the case of very observant ladies and male mayors, at least...

Op 01-05-2024 om 11:58:11 +0000 skryf John Pretorius jrp...@gmail.com:

> The solution to all immigration problems is to eliminate all the free
> stuff - free housing, social grants, pensions, government education and
> medical services. How to replace them is a discussion for another day.
>
> The people coming for the free stuff will stop coming. The rest are
> exactly the kind of people who will enrich our society. Whether they
> are legal or not will be increasingly unimportant.
>
> John Pretorius
> 13 Olive Lane, Morningside, Sandton 2196, South Africa
> +27 83 231 5025
> +27 11 784 5546

> [1]jrp...@gmail.com
> __________________________________________________________________

>
> From: li...@googlegroups.com <li...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of
> Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 01 May 2024 13:33
> To: li...@googlegroups.com <li...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Libsa] Boundaries versus Borders
>
> Western Cape
> I guess most folk, libertarians included, would be outraged if we had
> border controls between existing SA provinces. However, if the Western
> Cape were to secede, would we be OK with strict border controls to
> restrict the undoubted flood of economic migrants that would result. We
> would be fulfilling every black South African's worst nightmare as to
> what would happen if the whiteys won power. Charging for entry would be
> no different.
> What is to be done?
> Trevor Watkins

> [2]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> On Wed, 1 May 2024 at 07:31, Erik Peers <[3]erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice
> where Libertarianism is tested.
> It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no
> government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money.
> The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other
> bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

> On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ, <[4]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and
> philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to
> any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns
> and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of
> the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax
> there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and
> healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them.
> We can still debate how else those products and services could be
> rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders,
> I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes,
> public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in
> practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can
> still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now
> or in the foreseeable future.
> Stephen.
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter

> [6]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South
> Africa
> > you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> > With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would
> be like
> > to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> > For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than
> the one
> > receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> > What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on
> the
> > other side of that border ?
> > What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a
> country
> > which banned abortions ?
> > What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum
> wage ?
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[1][7]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> >
> > So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept
> out of
> > some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a
> practical
> > example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the
> majority of
> > the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out
> those
> > minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case,
> the
> > RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as
> a
> > result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look
> at
> > Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody
> lighter
> > than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and
> move back
> > to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's
> called
> > BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[2][8]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> <[3][9]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the
> argument.
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> q3l
> > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> <[4][10]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> > "... in your own country."
> > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > Stephen.
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > send an email to [7][13]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [8][14]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 93-2
> > e6422626687n%[15]40googlegroups.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > an email to [9][16]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [10][17]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFA
> bNzCXf0
> > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[18]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [11][19]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [12][20]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > 9B4E1CC2C861%[21]40gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [13][22]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [14][23]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[24]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > an email to [15][25]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [16][26]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> Y5%2BnV
> > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[27]40mail.gmail.com.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[28]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 2. mailto:[29]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 3. mailto:[30]erik...@gmail.com
> > 4. mailto:[31]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 5. mailto:[32]erik...@gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[33]bas...@gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[34]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 8.
> [35]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 9. mailto:[36]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 10.
> [37]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 11. mailto:[38]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 12.
> [39]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 13. mailto:[40]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 14.
> [41]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> N8E=94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 15. mailto:[42]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 16.
> [43]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+n
> VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [44]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [45]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40adama
> stor.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [46]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [47]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-
> 4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [48]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [49]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2yRgD
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> an email to [50]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [51]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2Lm%2Be4-aG6Nu6WggqgXx
> 56W7%3D7T9v%3DQwfWOM238s3MhtGg%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> an email to [52]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/DB9P191MB156350B25FA95019E4
> 4E2E67F2192%40DB9P191MB1563.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:jrp...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 3. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 5. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org

> 6. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 8. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 9. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 12. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 13. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 14. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2
> 15. http://40googlegroups.com/

> 16. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 17. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 1, 2024, 7:13:34 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

Where does it leave the original group ? Like Trevor said below, on the losing side. Just like the neanderthals in Europe, just like the Dutch at the Cape, just like the Cree in Western Canada. It sucks. I don't think any of us think that is a desirable outcome. What I'm saying and I think Trevor is saying is that government and borders are not the solution. Maybe life just sucks and there is no solution. Maybe charitable corporations in a Libertarian utopia could have saved the Han from the influx of Martians in 2086. Who knows ? What we do know is that leaving it to the same people as those who run the SA Post Office is unlikely to be optimal.

S.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J%3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%40mail.gmail.com.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 1, 2024, 7:23:13 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

Sentimental emotions are a strong driving force, but that alone does not provide for good policy. You're likely to end up with the unintended consequences of very good intentions. I used to spend quite a lot of time around the Bruma Lake area... where the official language is now Mandarin and all signs are in Chinese. Last time I was in Bruma just across the street from East Gate there were ANC election posters up on street lamps... all written in Chinese. When one in three people are from Persia or the Roman empire or Macdonaldstan or whatever the current major empire is, everyone ends up speaking Latin or BigMac. If you want to channel your sentimental attachments towards the immortality of your minority culture, I suggest grabbing a chisel and looking for a big flat rock. Some things are inevitable and trying to avoid them will just make it worse.

S.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjJ1T52OginZebYD%40adamastor.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 1, 2024, 7:32:10 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

I agree that part of the problem is the free stuff... if you leave the honey pot open, ants and flies will come. That said, I think there is an unfair connection or inference between immigrants and crime. If crime is the problem, then address the crime. If you set things up such that only immigrants with multiple degrees can enter legally and everyone else is relegated to cheat, lie and rob to stay alive, then that very policy might be what's causing the crime rather than preventing it. We've talked before about the coughing lions in Kruger... once someone has braved the open savanna despite their TB, then you go and tell them to line up for days to get a piece of paper or else they cannot contribute to society, then at some point the emptiness in their stomach is going to become the driving factor. Let them all in. Let them work. Let them be free. There's this incredible new theory called Libertarianism which suggests that most humans are basically ok if you let them.

S.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjJ4y7z9YfClSP6B%40adamastor.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 1, 2024, 7:35:10 PMMay 1

to li...@googlegroups.com

Biden flying in immigrants to swing states is an argument against government and elections and possibly flying, not against immigrants. ;-)

S.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J%3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%40mail.gmail.com.

Petrus Potgieter

unread,

May 2, 2024, 12:26:17 AMMay 2

to li...@googlegroups.com

Oh, I do not want to avoid the inevitable – it is useless, by definition. I am also very much in favour of the chisel and the big flat rock. Sometimes, though, I want to delay the inevitable. This can also be a negotiating position. So, if Beijing is ready to fly a million Han people to take over my small country then I want to discuss the price first rather than paying to put up a welcome sign at my own cost.

Please clarify you position by choosing the option that most closely matches your position.

(A) You want open borders but only if everybody else (on this planet) has them.

(B) You think that your/every country should just open its borders regardless because of either humans' fundamental right to free movement or because "change is good" or another and/or combination of reasons.

My point is that to maintain any kind of political order (in the broad sense, so including gang organisational structures), even a libertarian-ish one, you need a social consensus (or some nation building or whatever) and that is impossible without drawing the borders.

Op 01-05-2024 om 17:22:58 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

> Sentimental emotions are a strong driving force, but that alone does
> not provide for good policy. You're likely to end up with the
> unintended consequences of very good intentions. I used to spend quite
> a lot of time around the Bruma Lake area... where the official language
> is now Mandarin and all signs are in Chinese. Last time I was in Bruma
> just across the street from East Gate there were ANC election posters
> up on street lamps... all written in Chinese. When one in three people
> are from Persia or the Roman empire or Macdonaldstan or whatever the
> current major empire is, everyone ends up speaking Latin or BigMac. If
> you want to channel your sentimental attachments towards the
> immortality of your minority culture, I suggest grabbing a chisel and
> looking for a big flat rock. Some things are inevitable and trying to
> avoid them will just make it worse.
> S.
> Op Wo. 1 Mei 2024 om 11:01 het Petrus Potgieter

> <[1]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

>
> In the US, non-citizens do not vote but I don't know how they check
> it because they don't have Home Affairs. The electoral rolls are a
> state matter (possibly even at lower level) though.
> Regarding Home Affairs, I would be happy (first of all) to have them
> out of my life. It is not likely though and I have recently
> experienced how you need to fill in a Home Affairs form even after
> you are dead – which you obviously do by having your (now cold)
> fingerprint applied to form DHA-1366 (or something like that). I am
> very much for the state and everybody else assuming that everyone
> actually here is "legal" and entitled to carry on with their lives.
> The idea that your whole life can be upended by changing an entry in
> a database in Pretoria (and this happens to thousands, if not
> hundreds of thousands of people every year) is frightening and
> surreal.
> The scenario which Erik describes has happened (e.g. Russian
> settlement of Siberia) and I think that the only possible response
> is a pragmatic one. I would certainly not be particularly inclined
> to support such a demographic takeover on the basis of the rights of
> the populous group to move wherever they want. Nevertheless, there
> are cases where I suggest accepting the inevitable, e.g. the
> take-over by Muslim Indonesians from the other islands in Indonesian
> New Guinea. I am still sentimental about Tibet but it is likely
> there is nothing to do about it.
> Op 01-05-2024 om 18:23:10 +0200 skryf Erik Peers

> [2]erik...@gmail.com:

> <[2][4]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in
> practice
> > where Libertarianism is tested.
> > It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be
> no
> > government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal
> our money.
> > The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you
> then other
> > bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> > This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.
> > On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ,

> <[3][5]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > [5][7]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > > <[1][6][8]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > <[2][7][9]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > <[3][8][10]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > geskryf:
> > >
> > > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to
> the
> > argument.
> > >
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> > q3l
> > > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> > <[4][9][11]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > "... in your own country."
> > > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > > Stephen.
> > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> [7][12][14]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [8][13][15]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af
> 3-89
> > 93-2
> > > e6422626687n%[14][16]40googlegroups.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [9][15][17]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [10][16][18]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcEL
> YeFA
> > bNzCXf0
> > > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[17][19]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [11][18][20]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [12][19][21]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A
> 94-B
> > B66-
> > > 9B4E1CC2C861%[20][22]40gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [13][21][23]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [14][22][24]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3
> f5Kd
> > 0wPc
> > > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[23][25]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
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> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
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> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [15][24][26]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [16][25][27]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN
> 9sH2
> > Y5%2BnV
> > > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[26][28]40mail.gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:[27][29]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 2. mailto:[28][30]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 3. mailto:[29][31]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 4. mailto:[30][32]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 5. mailto:[31][33]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 6. mailto:[32][34]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 7. mailto:[33][35]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 8.
> >
> [34][36]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8
> 993-
> >
> [37]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote
> r
> > > 9. mailto:[35][38]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 10.
> >
> [36][39]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbN
> zCXf
> >
> [40]0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour
> > ce=footer
> > > 11. mailto:[37][41]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 12.
> >
> [38][42]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > [43]9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 13. mailto:[39][44]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 14.
> >
> [40][45]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> >
> N8E=[46]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour
> > ce=footer
> > > 15. mailto:[41][47]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 16.
> >
> [42][48]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> Y5+n
> >
> [49]VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour

> > ce=footer
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> > send an email to [43][50]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [44][51]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40a
> dama

> > stor.
> > --
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> >

> [46][53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-A
> BF1-
> > 4EFFBCAB6CFE%[54]40gmail.com.

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> >

> [48][56]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2
> yRgD
> > DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%[57]40mail.gmail.com.

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> >

> [50][59]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_
> m2Q6
> > UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%[60]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [117]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjJ1T52OginZebYD%40adam
> astor.

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> [119]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S4Ucm-w%3DK6-r4NseXL
> jA469GHdQ%3DxW8pVvhwLXDyEwMfg%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org

> 2. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 4. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 5. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 9. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 11. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 12. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 13. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 14. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 15. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 16. http://40googlegroups.com/
> 17. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 18. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> 19. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 20. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 21. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> 22. http://40gmail.com/
> 23. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 24. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 25. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 26. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 27. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> 28. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 29. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 30. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 31. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

Stephen vJ

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May 2, 2024, 12:34:13 AMMay 2

to li...@googlegroups.com

I just realized that in all this theorizing and philosophizing I forgot to be practical. I was distracted also by Petrus's apparent practicality, which steered my thinking even further from practicality. Now, thinking it through an eighth time, I realize that I was not thinking in practical terms at all. In practice;

1. It is impossible to draw a meaningful border. Every border will necessarily end up having some or most of who you aim to exclude or include on the wrong side of the line. If you draw a border around Benoni, for example, you'll exclude Charlize Theron. What will the other 43 people think ?

2. It is impossible to identify all the individuals you intend to include or exclude. Some of them will necessarily be desirable and yet not fit the criteria or vise versa. Self-identifying helps, but then that misses the entire point. See Chinese ANC election posters in Bruma. And BBBBEEEE.

3. It is impossible to set criteria by which to include or exclude people, such that it will always include the correct and exclude the correct people. See pencil test... and again Charlize and / or Chinese election posters. And BBBBBEEE.

4. Even if you could draw a circle within which to block yourself and even if you could set criteria by which to let others enter or not and even if you could apply those criteria to the infinite variety and complex mixtures within a single individual, you could not possibly act without ending up in a trolley-problem-esque lever pulling situation.

Borders require by necessity that you be an idealistic, elitist, racist, statist... because you have to, by definition, believe in the ability to group, classify and collectively treat human beings in a way contrary to their wishes and desires i.e. forcibly remove them from where they desire to be, based on some arbitrary criteria and nebulous definition of some vaguely defined grouping.

It is simply not possible to do rationally, objectively and scientifically. You cannot say something like; we are the star-people, we thrive in isolation from others not like us, you can know us by our genetically uniform paisley thumb-prints and we will all live over here behind this line, so shoo. Invariably one of them is going to get curious and go canoodle with a neighbour. It's inevitable. Darwin said so.

S.

On May 1, 2024, at 17:13, Stephen van Jaarsveldt <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Stephen vJ

unread,

May 2, 2024, 1:05:12 AMMay 2

to li...@googlegroups.com

Neither A not B... but definitely not A... that does not even compute in my brain as an option. Not B because I disagree with the existence of countries and the need for rights, since both imply the use of force and assume the legitimacy of a government. Neither... I can't even say "most closely" because both are so far from my position, I feel like choosing one will misrepresent my position.

My position is that you want to protect your culture and most people think they know what you mean by that... but I don't think you or they do really. The definition of that culture is so broad, vague, malleable and overlaps so much with various grey areas, that you won't even really be able to clearly define what it is you're trying to defend and protect.

I'll bet that if you try, you either end up with a definition so vague that it could include several thousand Chinese and Nigerian people or so specific that it includes only yourself... and possibly only your current self, not even your historic or future self. You cannot draw a line around something that vague - the best you can do is draw a line around your personal property. And that is not a border.

I also want to point out that most aspects of culture is not bound by geography or 3 dimensional space. Accountants have a very specific culture and their own in-jokes, memes and group norms... when an accountant leaves the office and commutes out of the city, they don't cease being an accountant the moment they cross the city limits or the office front door. Bikers don't stop being bikers when they get off their bikes and start drinking coffee in Harties.

I can be a Portuguese accountant biker and I can be those things anywhere. A Libertarian society can have some of its most productive output while some members are in France or even Canada. We can for sure build organizations, associations, social structures and institutions with absolutely no manifestation in the physical world. Model train collectors exchange ideas on YouTube and other platforms just fine without any borders around them.

Political order need not come from a national government - it can come from any and all of many institutions we involve ourselves with every day. My boss influences when I get up and what I wear and how I behave during office hours. My insurance company influences how I travel. My bank and my family influence how I shop. My friends determine what rules I follow on the weekend and my wife arranges things at home. Life is very ordered and regulated even in the complete absence of national government and work provides ample politics to those interested in that kind of thing.

Stephen.

On May 1, 2024, at 22:26, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

Oh, I do not want to avoid the inevitable – it is useless, by definition. I am also very much in favour of the chisel and the big flat rock. Sometimes, though, I want to delay the inevitable. This can also be a negotiating position. So, if Beijing is ready to fly a million Han people to take over my small country then I want to discuss the price first rather than paying to put up a welcome sign at my own cost.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjMV4M9fP-ShxETW%40adamastor.

mark....@imaginet.co.za

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May 2, 2024, 2:54:23 AMMay 2

to li...@googlegroups.com

It is certainly an argument against allowing voting without proper ID and voter registration procedures.

From: li...@googlegroups.com <li...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Stephen van Jaarsveldt
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 1:35 AM
To: li...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Libsa] Boundaries versus Borders

Biden flying in immigrants to swing states is an argument against government and elections and possibly flying, not against immigrants. ;-)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S5ceEB-UAsyuwvpH5jswBsU-ZSis3vBSezdhcwgKSCggg%40mail.gmail.com.

Petrus Potgieter

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May 2, 2024, 4:22:57 AMMay 2

to li...@googlegroups.com

Basically, I agree with all your points. But I am not designing human society on the planet from scratch though so I accept that there are states, some (or most) of which have some "identity" component to them. Even if this identity is largely a figment of some collective imagination, it is undeniably the case that you will change a society (by which I mean, country) with high levels of interpersonal trust (which is a very efficient thing) if there is an large influx of individuals who generally do not share these values and don't want to adopt them.

Therefore, I think it is perfectly legitimate if the committees appointed by the people in e.g. Denmark decide that they want less immigration even though this violates the rights of people to go where they please. I also want to restrict the right of people to walk through my garden, for example.

I agree that supporting borders means that I am elitist, racist and statist but I do not agree that it makes me an idealist since I do not think that borders and countries are some beautiful solution to a problem. They are, in my view, a messy and imperfect response to an actual issue.

As far as I understand issues of principle, I believe this makes me more Hayekian (even, Objectivist) than Rothbardian. I see states – similarly to trade associations, companies and the law – as an institutional response to actual issues. A groteque overreaction, a lot of the time, and one desperately in need of some libertarian inspired drastic reform though.

Op 01-05-2024 om 22:33:59 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

> Op Wo. 1 Mei 2024 om 10:23 het Erik Peers <[1]erik...@gmail.com>

> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 23:31 het Erik Peers <[3]erik...@gmail.com>

> geskryf:
>
> Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice
> where Libertarianism is tested.
> It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no
> government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money.
> The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other
> bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

> On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ, <[4]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and
> philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to
> any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns
> and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of
> the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax
> there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and
> healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them.
> We can still debate how else those products and services could be
> rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders,
> I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes,
> public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in
> practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can
> still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now
> or in the foreseeable future.
> Stephen.
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter

> [6]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South
> Africa
> > you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> > With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would
> be like
> > to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> > For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than
> the one
> > receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> > What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on
> the
> > other side of that border ?
> > What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a
> country
> > which banned abortions ?
> > What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum
> wage ?
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[1][7]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> >
> > So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept
> out of
> > some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a
> practical
> > example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the
> majority of
> > the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out
> those
> > minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case,
> the
> > RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as
> a
> > result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look
> at
> > Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody
> lighter
> > than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and
> move back
> > to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's
> called
> > BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[2][8]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> <[3][9]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the
> argument.
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> q3l
> > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> <[4][10]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> > "... in your own country."
> > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > Stephen.
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > send an email to [7][13]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [8][14]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 93-2
> > e6422626687n%[15]40googlegroups.com.
> >

> > --
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> > an email to [9][16]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [10][17]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFA
> bNzCXf0
> > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[18]40mail.gmail.com.
> >

> > --
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> > send an email to [11][19]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [12][20]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > 9B4E1CC2C861%[21]40gmail.com.
> >

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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [14][23]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[24]40mail.gmail.com.
> >

> > --
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> > an email to [15][25]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

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> [45]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40adama
> stor.

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> [47]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-
> 4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

>
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> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [51]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6
> UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J
> %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%40mail.gmail.com.

>
> --
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> [55]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9422-B4A
> CEF9EFC3E%40gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 2. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 5. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 6. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 9. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 12. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 13. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 14. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2
> 15. http://40googlegroups.com/
> 16. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 17. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0
> 18. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 19. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 20. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 21. http://40gmail.com/
> 22. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 23. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> 24. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 25. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 26. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+nV
> 27. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 28. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 29. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 30. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 31. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 32. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 33. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 34. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 35. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 36. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 37. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0Fmpq30...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> 38. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 39. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 40. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 41. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPcN8E=94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 42. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 43. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+nV...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> 44. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 45. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD@adamastor
> 46. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 47. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5...@gmail.com
> 48. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 49. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd=CWgvrf2yRgDDWRqhHQYs...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> 50. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 51. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX=n...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 52. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 53. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J=rrWcXQ1HrdgzZ...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 54. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 55. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Petrus Potgieter

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May 2, 2024, 4:35:40 AMMay 2

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Agreed 95% but at some point you have to be involved in some kind of organisation with the people in your physical vicinity (and I do as little of it as possible). Even such notions as private (as opposed to personal) property has historically not existed without a state. That means that in that very fundamental sphere of our lives, we are tied to a specific instance of a state. You cannot have a property in Hermanus while living in Pretoria without a state to define the abstract ownership of the property in Hermanus.

Op 01-05-2024 om 23:04:57 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9D97A154-236C-41D1-AE09-3F548FC09FF8%40gmail.com.

Erik Peers

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May 2, 2024, 7:10:30 AMMay 2

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When a burglar enters your house; if you enforce your boundary, then where does that leave him?

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Erik Peers

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May 2, 2024, 8:13:52 AMMay 2

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Why did you leave South Africa for Canada?

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, 16:31 Stephen van Jaarsveldt, <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, I seem to be out of practice with this kind of debate... I just realized that my argument below is 100% utilitarian - oops. So let me retract that last post except for "your argument seems anecdotal and emotional rather than objective and general". Can you try to phrase your argument in more general, principled and less anecdotal terms ?

S.

Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 06:39 het Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:
Ok, let's concede for a moment that all uneducated Nigerians look the same and let's also concede for a moment that you would be better off personally and individually if that group of people were forcibly removed and excluded from entering "your" country. Is it conceivable that someone else may be in such a dire economic situation that those people were their only customers i.e. some other guy would be willing to scrape the bottom of the barrel ? Is it conceivable that someone else is worse off because of them being kicked out ? How about those Nigerians themselves - are they better off for being kicked out ? I'm asking because your argument seems anecdotal and emotional rather than objective and general.

Stephen.

On Apr 30, 2024, at 04:00, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

My worst tenant ever was a middle aged white male. My best tenant ever was an Indian female. Colour is not relevant. I share your experience not about Finns, but French. Just individuals who are exceptions to their country of origin.

However there are cultural groups have a consistently different regard to contracts, for instance. Not all, but one needs to assess from experience. I have rented to Nigerians who have been excellent tenants, but these have been professionals with masters degrees. The average however, have a different approach to law and contract.

Just as I take into account credit record, conduct of bank account, employment record, salary, marital status, age, when assessing a tenant's application, plus family size, number of pets, propensity to violence; it would be remiss of me not to consider the prospective tenant's attitude to the rule of law.

Stastically the probability of having a bad Nigerian tenant is so high that it is neither prejudiced nor irrational for landlords to prefer non Nigerian tenants. Different cultures exist. Wishing does not make it not so.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, 11:35 Trevor Watkins, <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
ERIK, you clearly don't know my history.

It's the old problem - do you judge people by the content of their character, or their colour or origin. Yes, there is such a thing as national characteristics (don't hire an Irishman for a brewery job), but they are generally unscientific and offensive. Feel free to harbour personal biases, and let these shape your interactions with some people. As Sowell and others have pointed out, restricting your client base because of bias commonly affects you more than them.

The worst guests we had in the guest house were from Finland. They complained constantly, smoked in the house, stole from the fridge, soiled the sheets, then left an awful review. The most fun guests were large parties of coloured guests, who usually left the place impeccable. Go figure.

Trevor Watkins

bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

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Erik Peers

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May 2, 2024, 8:13:52 AMMay 2

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I will do. Make it more generally principled.

It was actually deliberately anecdotal in an attempt to make the debate of practical relevance.

Erik Peers

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May 2, 2024, 8:13:52 AMMay 2

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Borders actually cause wars.

If England had an open immigration policy, then London would not have been bombed. Hitler would simply have walked in. So many lives would have been saved.

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Erik Peers

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May 2, 2024, 8:13:52 AMMay 2

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The problem about thinking like an individual is that many don't. For instance:

The UK goes full Libertarian and scraps border control.

Nigeria sends 60 million people to the UK.

They vote for the UK to be a province of Nigeria.

This is plausible. Is this still good for everyone?

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, 15:41 Petrus Potgieter, <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

I have not been called a socialist since about 1985 and accept the slur as an indication that I am not (as many would suggest) completely on the fringe. ;-)

Any social arrangement (including a libertarian[ish] dispensation) needs exactly that – a social consensus among a finite number of people that is probably not going to include all the planet and that will have to include a mechanism for keeping some people out. Every club worth beloning to has a fee and rules. I agree however that immigration can be very good for a society and often a necessity. I just think that some restrictions are a practical part of a consensus.

Since you are living on the Great Plains (or close to them), do you think that American Indian society benefited form the immigration of millions of Europeans or was it (as some would suggest) perhaps destroyed by it? What about Tibet and Han immigration?

I am not saying that I have a good definition of what "society" is or that I would elevate it (like Danie Goosen, these past few weeks, or Viktor Orbán or Vladimir Putin) to some exalted podium. Nevertheless, human behaviour is to a large extent not simply economically rational but also highly social. I find that the denying of the actual existence of society by some libertarians to be perilously close to the "let's construct an new world from scratch" thinking of communist idealists.

My understanding is that Argentina probably has the closest thing to open immigration of all medium (or bigger) sized countries. It does not appear to be a problem but/and it is not quite as simple as flying there and settling down. I could easily be convinced that Argentina has a healthy approach to the issue.

Op 30-04-2024 om 06:26:52 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

> "... a society... needs borders"
>
> So you're a socialist. Ok.
>
> Societies consist of individuals and each individual is different and unique. There can be no such thing as a "Libertarian society", since (as evidence by this thread) even Libertarians are different from each other.
>
> Privatizing government will still be government, but now a for-profit government. That's not helpful - you need liberty i.e. choice... and what you're suggesting below is limiting choice by economic means rather than force.
>

> Stephen.

>
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:32, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:
>
> My view is closer to that of Eric's. A society, even a libertarian one, needs borders i.e. there has to be a price of entry. In the golden age of no passports 100 (and more) years ago the price of entry was the ticket which was hugely expensive compared to today. The travel itself signalled commitment because it was a huge price that was not refundable.
>
> I am all for replacing borders by ticket barriers though. For SA, I would put the price around R100k or upward, refundable as a tax deduction or 100% minus a daily fee if you leave. Let Mastercard administer it. Can have different plans e.g. only R50k deposit but higher daily fee and so on.
>
>

> Op 29-04-2024 om 17:36:59 +0200 skryf Erik Peers erik...@gmail.com:

> > send an email to [2]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> > [3]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2

> > e6422626687n%40googlegroups.com.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> > an email to [4]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit

> > [5]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFAbNzCXf0F
> > mpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%40mail.gmail.com.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> > 2. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 3. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 4. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 5. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0Fmpq30...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>
> --
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Trevor Watkins

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May 2, 2024, 10:42:05 AMMay 2

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Authoritarians who create borders generally do so arbitrarily - follow a line on a map, a line of longitude or latitude (a la Namibia), the course of a river. They restrict who may CROSS that border, once again based on an arbitrary set of assumptions - do you have the right piece of paper, are you the right citizenship, colour, culture.
Famously when Tsar Nicholas (I think) drew a line on the map of Siberia specifying the path of the railroad, he put a bumpin it caused by getting his finger in the way of the pencil. That 30 km bump was faithfully built into the resulting railway.

Our enemy is the power of authoritarians, rather than the actual borders.

Trevor Watkins
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

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Gavin Weiman

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May 2, 2024, 11:55:58 AMMay 2

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Hi

Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who create borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the supposition that boarders are either a) created, and b) came about arbitrarily.

Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in the form of either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the history of civilisation instead of trying to use the rationalisations of ‘consent’ or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the world.

Gavin

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Stephen vJ

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May 2, 2024, 11:41:44 PMMay 2

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Exactly.

Stephen.

On May 2, 2024, at 05:10, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Stephen vJ

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May 2, 2024, 11:47:14 PMMay 2

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Because at the time SA was #114 on the economic freedom index and falling, while Canada was #8 and rising... the highest of all the countries of which I could speak the majority language. In short, I wanted more freedom without having to learn a fifth language. I suspect we're going off topic, but I can't resist answering a direct question.

Stephen.

On May 2, 2024, at 06:13, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Stephen vJ

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May 2, 2024, 11:56:47 PMMay 2

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Ok, I'll bite... please enlighten us Gavin with a historical example or two of non-authoritarian creators of borders. I had a cursory look, but came up empty... clearly you have some in mind though ? Or did I miss your point ?

Stephen.

On May 2, 2024, at 09:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via LibertarianSA <li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-915B-F11474AB2427%40icloud.com.

Stephen vJ

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May 3, 2024, 12:09:35 AMMay 3

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Ok. I think I can agree with all that. Our basic positions on the matter is probably closer than we thought.

I'm wondering something else now... obviously Hugo, Gary and myself must be in favour of immigration, otherwise we would be hypocrites or at least logically incoherent. Someone who still lives within 20km of where they were born can be against immigration without being a hypocrite... well, I can think of a few scenarios where that would not be true, but let's assume for the moment that cultures are geographic, homogenous and static (of course it is none of those things, but this is a model to explore a theory)...

Can a person who moved from Johannesburg to Jeffreys Bay be against immigration without being a hypocrite ? The cultural, linguistic and economic differences between those two places are clearly distinct, so by any reasonable criteria the Jbayers should oppose an influx of Jozinites and vise versa. Can you be from Kempton, live in Stellenbosch and yet be against immigration ? Didn't you take a local's job by doing that ?

My gut feeling is that you can't, but I'd like to hear some opinions on this.

Stephen.

On May 2, 2024, at 02:22, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

Basically, I agree with all your points. But I am not designing human society on the planet from scratch though so I accept that there are states, some (or most) of which have some "identity" component to them. Even if this identity is largely a figment of some collective imagination, it is undeniably the case that you will change a society (by which I mean, country) with high levels of interpersonal trust (which is a very efficient thing) if there is an large influx of individuals who generally do not share these values and don't want to adopt them.

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 3, 2024, 12:28:47 AMMay 3

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I see at https://www.heritage.org/index/pages/all-country-scores that SA is now below Swaziland and the Kyrgyz Republic is snapping at our heels.

Op 02-05-2024 om 21:47:00 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

> Because at the time SA was #114 on the economic freedom index and
> falling, while Canada was #8 and rising... the highest of all the
> countries of which I could speak the majority language. In short, I
> wanted more freedom without having to learn a fifth language. I suspect
> we're going off topic, but I can't resist answering a direct question.
>
> Stephen.
> On May 2, 2024, at 06:13, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why did you leave South Africa for Canada?
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, 16:31 Stephen van Jaarsveldt,
> <[1]sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, I seem to be out of practice with this kind of debate... I
> just realized that my argument below is 100% utilitarian - oops. So let
> me retract that last post except for "your argument seems anecdotal and
> emotional rather than objective and general". Can you try to phrase
> your argument in more general, principled and less anecdotal terms ?
> S.

> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 06:39 het Stephen vJ <[2]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> geskryf:
>
> Ok, let's concede for a moment that all uneducated Nigerians look the
> same and let's also concede for a moment that you would be better off
> personally and individually if that group of people were forcibly
> removed and excluded from entering "your" country. Is it conceivable
> that someone else may be in such a dire economic situation that those
> people were their only customers i.e. some other guy would be willing
> to scrape the bottom of the barrel ? Is it conceivable that someone
> else is worse off because of them being kicked out ? How about those
> Nigerians themselves - are they better off for being kicked out ? I'm
> asking because your argument seems anecdotal and emotional rather than
> objective and general.
> Stephen.

> On Apr 30, 2024, at 04:00, Erik Peers <[3]erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My worst tenant ever was a middle aged white male. My best tenant ever
> was an Indian female. Colour is not relevant. I share your experience
> not about Finns, but French. Just individuals who are exceptions to
> their country of origin.
> However there are cultural groups have a consistently different regard
> to contracts, for instance. Not all, but one needs to assess from
> experience. I have rented to Nigerians who have been excellent tenants,
> but these have been professionals with masters degrees. The average
> however, have a different approach to law and contract.
> Just as I take into account credit record, conduct of bank account,
> employment record, salary, marital status, age, when assessing a
> tenant's application, plus family size, number of pets, propensity to
> violence; it would be remiss of me not to consider the prospective
> tenant's attitude to the rule of law.
> Stastically the probability of having a bad Nigerian tenant is so high
> that it is neither prejudiced nor irrational for landlords to prefer
> non Nigerian tenants. Different cultures exist. Wishing does not make
> it not so.

> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, 11:35 Trevor Watkins, <[4]bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ERIK, you clearly don't know my history.
> It's the old problem - do you judge people by the content of their
> character, or their colour or origin. Yes, there is such a thing as
> national characteristics (don't hire an Irishman for a brewery job),
> but they are generally unscientific and offensive. Feel free to
> harbour personal biases, and let these shape your interactions with
> some people. As Sowell and others have pointed out, restricting your
> client base because of bias commonly affects you more than them.
> The worst guests we had in the guest house were from Finland. They
> complained constantly, smoked in the house, stole from the fridge,
> soiled the sheets, then left an awful review. The most fun guests were
> large parties of coloured guests, who usually left the place
> impeccable. Go figure.
> Trevor Watkins

> [5]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one
>
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 09:18, Erik Peers <[6]erik...@gmail.com>

> send an email to [8]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [9]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-2
> e6422626687n%40googlegroups.com.

>
> --
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> [11]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFAbNzC
> Xf0Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%40mail.gmail.com.

>
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> [13]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnTdNOa_taAVAzA3ze
> 6C4CUY2Wu7Wy1q6dTWCgRGrne0g%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [15]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOHuB26okJNt6r2ri6VA0
> Riygp2pOWSjfYU9bmsQB5zGA%40mail.gmail.com.

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> pVgQ2ULTb34fq2sMuksaaaWRqWw%40mail.gmail.com.

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> gCmrZyFzj92DBLeV%3DK8g%3DCUPNA%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [21]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/16329F3E-D28B-4F46-8B3A-774
> F9B147708%40gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 2. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 4. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 5. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 9. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 10. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 11. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf0Fmpq30...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 12. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 13. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnTdNOa_taAVAzA3ze6...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 14. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 15. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOHuB26okJNt6r2ri6V...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 16. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 17. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S62Ev7ayTZcg4JTBxvp...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 18. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 19. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uM-WxOu+OBL3qTv2YhcgCmrZyFzj92DBLeV=K8g=CU...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 20. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 21. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/16329F3E-D28B-4F46...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Stephen vJ

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May 3, 2024, 12:39:21 AMMay 3

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I personally prefer the Fraser Institute one https://www.fraserinstitute.org/economic-freedom/ but for most cases the conclusion from either one is the same.

Stephen.

On May 2, 2024, at 22:28, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

I see at https://www.heritage.org/index/pages/all-country-scores that SA is now below Swaziland and the Kyrgyz Republic is snapping at our heels.

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Trevor Watkins

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May 3, 2024, 3:11:01 AMMay 3

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Hi Gavin

Good to see you back on this platform where we have exchanged many acerbic opinions over the years.

Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who create borders’ with ‘authoritarians’

I defer to Steven's comment that he could find no borders created by non-authoritarians.

I do believe that "Boarders" are "created", sometimes arbitrarily, during sexual congress by their parents. Many non-boarders are created in the same way. Borders, of course, are a different issue.

trying to use the rationalisations of ‘consent’ or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the world

NAP and Consent are useful shortcuts for referring to a more complex aspect of our philosophy, but are certainly not the "sole" lenses. I do believe we libertarians have quite a rich body of work explaining our views.

Trevor Watkins
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-915B-F11474AB2427%40icloud.com.

Erik Peers

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May 5, 2024, 8:24:47 AMMay 5

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https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

The link between mass migration and crime is a fact.

Some think that current mass migration is not as simple as an enterprising individual choosing a better life. It is part of a strategy.

The Libertarian no border argument presumes individual motivation. It falls down when the migration is a strategy.

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Stephen vJ

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May 5, 2024, 12:16:01 PMMay 5

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There are two distinct situations here - individuals making decisions in the global marketplace for domiciles and groups reacting to major events in their place of origin. Most of our discussion has been about individuals, so let's look at groups...

Disasters cannot be avoided and when they happen it is like any other force of nature / acts of god - the impact often affects more than just the people directly impacted. When 9/11 happened, my office phone in Silverton Pretoria died, because our international phone exchange was housed in one of the towers. When Exxon collapsed, the petrol price went up on the other side of the planet. We are not immune and isolated from disasters far away... as Covid very clearly demonstrated.

When the US abolished slavery, slave owners set their slaves free... many former slaves became employees and stayed where they were, while a huge mob of something like 100 000 people started roaming the country. A bunch of them were eventually shipped off to Africa, resulting in the country now known as Liberia, but a huge group kept wandering through the South East US like a slow-moving storm cloud or swarm of locusts.

Sometimes a huge upheaval happens and then some uninvolved populous has to deal with an influx of people from that event. In the case of slavery being abolished, one guy's salvation may be another's disaster.

You can either hide in the basement and hope it becomes someone else's problem, or you can deal with your part of the damage as quickly as you can, or you can whine and cry about how unfair it is that your neighbour's house burning down has caused your curtains to smell of smoke. I get the impression that much of the closed border argument consists of the latter.

Are you saying the problem should be kept isolated at the source i.e. woman and children should stay in the Ukraine and US slavery should not have been abolished ?

Stephen.

On May 5, 2024, at 06:24, Erik Peers <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 6, 2024, 1:51:43 AMMay 6

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I doubt Ukrainian women and children commit a lot of crime. Low-skilled young men (I am also sexist and agist) do. Only a minority of them (probably and I hope and trust because I am a slight optimist) but too many. So, I think that what Erik and I are saying is that if the age/class/values structure of your society is being changed too quickly through migration, you might want to rethink that. Of course, we don't think there is a magic formula for computing the "right" level of migration or that the state (or the home owners' committee or whatever) is going to do it particularly well. It is just that some mistakes are better than others.

At my complex, I deny use of our swimming pool to loads of people who might find this hurtful and insulting and even though the pool is empty 95% of the time. It is a precautionary over-reaction that I think is a prudent course of action and not a moral problem. I think you would say that everyone has the right to exclude people (including companies and other entirely juristic constructs) from property the own/control/manage but states don't have it. My view is that I don't see why states are all that different from other committees and organisations that exist on paper. It is all part of the fabric of the existing society.

Regarding your humanitarian angle: I do think it is better to tackle small issues that you have a chance of solving rather than to agree to take on huge issues on which you might have no effect. The problem is that it is often an elite which is isolated from the real existing problems of the society at lower levels who just advocate mass immigration of the kind that ends up ruining safety and security at the train station for those who actually have to take the train. This phenomenon co-exists with populist and stupic anti-immigrant retoric of the kind you mentioned regarding house prices in Canada (or Australia or Portugal or many others).

Op 05-05-2024 om 10:15:43 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:

> [1]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> The link between mass migration and crime is a fact.
> Some think that current mass migration is not as simple as an
> enterprising individual choosing a better life. It is part of a
> strategy.
> The Libertarian no border argument presumes individual motivation. It
> falls down when the migration is a strategy.

> On Fri, 03 May 2024, 09:11 Trevor Watkins, <[2]bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Gavin
> Good to see you back on this platform where we have exchanged many
> acerbic opinions over the years.
>
> Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who create
> borders’ with ‘authoritarians’
>
> I defer to Steven's comment that he could find no borders created by
> non-authoritarians.
> I do believe that "Boarders" are "created", sometimes arbitrarily,
> during sexual congress by their parents. Many non-boarders are created
> in the same way. Borders, of course, are a different issue.
>
> trying to use the rationalisations of ‘consent’ or NAP as the sole
> lenses though which you perceive the world
>
> NAP and Consent are useful shortcuts for referring to a more complex
> aspect of our philosophy, but are certainly not the "sole" lenses. I do
> believe we libertarians have quite a rich body of work explaining our
> views.
> Trevor Watkins

> [3]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 17:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via LibertarianSA
> <[4]li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who create
> borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the supposition that
> boarders are either a) created, and b) came about arbitrarily.
> Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in the form of
> either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the history of
> civilisation instead of trying to use the rationalisations of ‘consent’
> or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the world.
> Gavin
>

> On 02 May 2024, at 16:41, Trevor Watkins <[5]bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Authoritarians who create borders generally do so arbitrarily - follow
> a line on a map, a line of longitude or latitude (a la Namibia), the
> course of a river. They restrict who may CROSS that border, once again
> based on an arbitrary set of assumptions - do you have the right piece
> of paper, are you the right citizenship, colour, culture.
> Famously when Tsar Nicholas (I think) drew a line on the map of Siberia
> specifying the path of the railroad, he put a bumpin it caused by
> getting his finger in the way of the pencil. That 30 km bump was
> faithfully built into the resulting railway.
> Our enemy is the power of authoritarians, rather than the actual
> borders.
> Trevor Watkins

> [6]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 06:34, Stephen vJ <[7]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> <[8]sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Where does it leave the original group ? Like Trevor said below, on the
> losing side. Just like the neanderthals in Europe, just like the Dutch
> at the Cape, just like the Cree in Western Canada. It sucks. I don't
> think any of us think that is a desirable outcome. What I'm saying and
> I think Trevor is saying is that government and borders are not the
> solution. Maybe life just sucks and there is no solution. Maybe
> charitable corporations in a Libertarian utopia could have saved the
> Han from the influx of Martians in 2086. Who knows ? What we do know is
> that leaving it to the same people as those who run the SA Post Office
> is unlikely to be optimal.
> S.

> Op Wo. 1 Mei 2024 om 10:23 het Erik Peers <[9]erik...@gmail.com>

> Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 23:31 het Erik Peers <[11]erik...@gmail.com>

> geskryf:
>
> Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in practice
> where Libertarianism is tested.
> It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be no
> government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal our money.
> The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you then other
> bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.

> On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ, <[12]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ok, but this is a forum about ethics, morals, principles and
> philosophy... don't be too practical now. I am morally opposed to
> any and all forms of taxation, but I still fill out my tax returns
> and pay what they want... because I also have a practical fear of
> the currently elected mob. We can still debate if and how much tax
> there should be in a Libertarian world. I may find public roads and
> healthcare unethically cruel and inefficient, but I still use them.
> We can still debate how else those products and services could be
> rendered. I'm not saying vote Liberal so we can have open borders,
> I'm saying borders should go down the plumbing along with taxes,
> public roads and public schools... while knowing full well that in
> practice those things are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. We can
> still define an ideal world, even if it is not practical right now
> or in the foreseeable future.
> Stephen.
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:03, Petrus Potgieter

> [14]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > In case my sarcasm was not obvious... to many people in South
> Africa
> > you are the Nigerian who needs to leave.
> > With any policy proposal it is useful to consider what it would
> be like
> > to be the one on the receiving end of the policy.
> > For example, what if I am the one paying the taxes rather than
> the one
> > receiving the "free" healthcare ?
> > What if I'm considered the problem culture who needs to stay on
> the
> > other side of that border ?
> > What if I'm the pregnant teenager living on the street in a
> country
> > which banned abortions ?
> > What if I'm the small business owner required to pay minimum
> wage ?
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 13:27 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[1][15]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> >
> > So let's assume for a second that horrible people should be kept
> out of
> > some arbitrarily defined geographic area... and let's take a
> practical
> > example we all know very well - South Africa. What if the
> majority of
> > the people who's country it is decided to exclude and kick out
> those
> > minorities they found to be most abominable... so, in this case,
> the
> > RSA government surveys their largest group of citizens... and as
> a
> > result it says these Europeans just seem to cause trouble, look
> at
> > Apartheid and the aftermath of all that segregation... anybody
> lighter
> > than Light Fawn (hex color code #E8CBAE) needs to pack up and
> move back
> > to Europe... oh, wait... I see they already did that. It's
> called
> > BBBBEEEE... nevermind.
> > S.
> >
> > Op Di. 30 Apr. 2024 om 08:25 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> > <[2][16]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> <[3][17]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to the
> argument.
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> q3l
> > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> <[4][18]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> > "... in your own country."
> > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > Stephen.
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > send an email to [7][21]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [8][22]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> 93-2
> > e6422626687n%[23]40googlegroups.com.

> >
> > --
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> > an email to [9][24]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [10][25]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcELYeFA
> bNzCXf0
> > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[26]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
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> > send an email to [11][27]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [12][28]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > 9B4E1CC2C861%[29]40gmail.com.

> >
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> >

> [14][31]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[32]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [16][34]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> Y5%2BnV
> > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[35]40mail.gmail.com.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[36]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 2. mailto:[37]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 3. mailto:[38]erik...@gmail.com
> > 4. mailto:[39]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 5. mailto:[40]erik...@gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[41]bas...@gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[42]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 8.
> [43]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 9. mailto:[44]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 10.
> [45]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 11. mailto:[46]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 12.
> [47]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > 13. mailto:[48]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 14.
> [49]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> N8E=94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer
> > 15. mailto:[50]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 16.
> [51]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+n
> VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> ce=footer

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> [53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40adama
> stor.

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> [55]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-
> 4EFFBCAB6CFE%40gmail.com.

>
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> [57]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2yRgD
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%40mail.gmail.com.

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> UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

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> %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%40mail.gmail.com.

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> B4ACEF9EFC3E%40gmail.com.

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> F11474AB2427%40icloud.com.

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> gp75q5X5hX8ycVLvJi0Su5qvUMw%40mail.gmail.com.

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> %3DYA%2BsiZ-%3D-5hJx%3DScTbCxiBg%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [73]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-4669-9A92-E00
> 9A2790061%40gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE
> 2. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:li...@googlegroups.com
> 5. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 9. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

Trevor Watkins

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May 6, 2024, 9:41:03 AMMay 6

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I find the closed borders lobby very inconsistent. In South Africa, open borders between provinces is perfectly acceptable. Imagine your annoyance at being locked out of Gauteng on your way to libsem.

We have an international border with Zimbabwe which serves more as a signpost that you are going in the right direction. 7 million illegal immigrants does not a border make.

The EU essentially abandoned borders between EU states, and most people thought it was wonderful and enlightened.

Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea have no immigrant problems at all.

Taiwan and Hong Kong let pretty much anybody in initially, and succeeded magnificently.

Australia deliberately received the worst of people, criminals and the poor, 2 centuries ago, and now they are quite proud of their forebears. Let the emigres from Indonesia in and they will soon be selling red sandcastles to the Sahara.

Trevor Watkins

bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 6, 2024, 10:28:35 AMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

Thank you for mentioning these good examples. My position is definitely far from "all borders good" but your position is "all borders bad". In that sense, I am happily inconsistent. Since I also don't have an algorithm for the binary classification of borders as good or bad, my position could also be called vague.

The removal of borders between EU countries is not complete (the semi-bordeless Schengen Zone is another thing which does not include all of the EU and includes bits outside the EU) although I believe there is now complete freedom of movement to resettle in another EU country. Still not entirely without paperwork – a Hungarian friend of mine recently moved to Croatia and you still need many stamps from different office before you are settled in. This I regard as a good thing but it was the result of many years (decades, I think) of negotiation between the different states and/or between the EU and accession countries. The accession countries give up a lot, like freedom to set their own visa policies. So, basically Romania will get an open border with the rest of the EU but at the cost of strengthening its outer (non-EU) border. I think it is all a good thing but I don't think it unambiguously supports your point of view.

The Union of South Africa, likewise, required very extensive negotiations and ended up not coming even with freedom of movement – at least not for people deemed to be Indian.

There are definitely borders today between different parts of France – Reunion being a notable example that is in the EU, in France, but not in the border-free Schengen area. Also, I understand that only EU citizens (and their families) enjoy the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. It does not extend to other legal residents and certainly does not extend to the million or more non-citizen Russians resident (and born in) the EU's Baltic states. They face borders. Even inside the Schengen zone, airlines ask for my passport when I fly – it is a legal requirement that they look at the passports of non-EU people. I have tried to fly with Fikile Mbalula's "bestuurspermit" and it did not work.

Op 06-05-2024 om 15:40:45 +0200 skryf Trevor Watkins bas...@gmail.com:

> I find the closed borders lobby very inconsistent. In South Africa,
> open borders between provinces is perfectly acceptable. Imagine your
> annoyance at being locked out of Gauteng on your way to libsem.
> We have an international border with Zimbabwe which serves more as a
> signpost that you are going in the right direction. 7 million illegal
> immigrants does not a border make.
> The EU essentially abandoned borders between EU states, and most people
> thought it was wonderful and enlightened.
> Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea have no immigrant problems at all.
> Taiwan and Hong Kong let pretty much anybody in initially, and
> succeeded magnificently.
> Australia deliberately received the worst of people, criminals and the
> poor, 2 centuries ago, and now they are quite proud of their
> forebears. Let the emigres from Indonesia in and they will soon be
> selling red sandcastles to the Sahara.
> Trevor Watkins

> [1]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2024 at 07:51, Petrus Potgieter <[2]pet...@potgieter.org>

> [3]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > On May 5, 2024, at 06:24, Erik Peers <[4]erik...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > [1][5]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> > [3][7]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 17:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via LibertarianSA
> > <[4][8]li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> > Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who
> create
> > borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the supposition
> that
> > boarders are either a) created, and b) came about arbitrarily.
> > Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in the
> form of
> > either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the
> history of
> > civilisation instead of trying to use the rationalisations of
> ‘consent’
> > or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the world.
> > Gavin
> >
> > On 02 May 2024, at 16:41, Trevor Watkins

> <[5][9]bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Authoritarians who create borders generally do so arbitrarily -
> follow
> > a line on a map, a line of longitude or latitude (a la
> Namibia), the
> > course of a river. They restrict who may CROSS that border,
> once again
> > based on an arbitrary set of assumptions - do you have the
> right piece
> > of paper, are you the right citizenship, colour, culture.
> > Famously when Tsar Nicholas (I think) drew a line on the map of
> Siberia
> > specifying the path of the railroad, he put a bumpin it caused
> by
> > getting his finger in the way of the pencil. That 30 km bump
> was
> > faithfully built into the resulting railway.
> > Our enemy is the power of authoritarians, rather than the
> actual
> > borders.
> > Trevor Watkins

> > [6][10]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 06:34, Stephen vJ

> <[7][11]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > <[8][12]sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Where does it leave the original group ? Like Trevor said
> below, on the
> > losing side. Just like the neanderthals in Europe, just like
> the Dutch
> > at the Cape, just like the Cree in Western Canada. It sucks. I
> don't
> > think any of us think that is a desirable outcome. What I'm
> saying and
> > I think Trevor is saying is that government and borders are not
> the
> > solution. Maybe life just sucks and there is no solution. Maybe
> > charitable corporations in a Libertarian utopia could have
> saved the
> > Han from the influx of Martians in 2086. Who knows ? What we do
> know is
> > that leaving it to the same people as those who run the SA Post
> Office
> > is unlikely to be optimal.
> > S.
> > Op Wo. 1 Mei 2024 om 10:23 het Erik Peers

> <[9][13]erik...@gmail.com>

> <[11][15]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in
> practice
> > where Libertarianism is tested.
> > It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be
> no
> > government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal
> our money.
> > The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you
> then other
> > bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> > This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.
> > On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ,

> <[12][16]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > [14][18]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > > <[1][15][19]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > <[2][16][20]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > <[3][17][21]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > geskryf:
> > >
> > > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to
> the
> > argument.
> > >
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> > q3l
> > > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> > <[4][18][22]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > "... in your own country."
> > > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > > Stephen.
> > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> [7][21][25]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [8][22][26]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af
> 3-89
> > 93-2
> > > e6422626687n%[23][27]40googlegroups.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [9][24][28]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [10][25][29]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3DcEL
> YeFA
> > bNzCXf0
> > > Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[26][30]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [11][27][31]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [12][28][32]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A
> 94-B
> > B66-
> > > 9B4E1CC2C861%[29][33]40gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [13][30][34]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [14][31][35]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3
> f5Kd
> > 0wPc
> > > N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[32][36]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
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> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [15][33][37]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [16][34][38]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN
> 9sH2
> > Y5%2BnV
> > > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[35][39]40mail.gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:[36][40]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 2. mailto:[37][41]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 3. mailto:[38][42]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 4. mailto:[39][43]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 5. mailto:[40][44]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 6. mailto:[41][45]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 7. mailto:[42][46]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 8.
> >
> [43][47]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8
> 993-
> >
> [48]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote
> r
> > > 9. mailto:[44][49]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 10.
> >
> [45][50]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbN
> zCXf
> >
> [51]0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour
> > ce=footer
> > > 11. mailto:[46][52]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 12.
> >
> [47][53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> B66-
> > [54]9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 13. mailto:[48][55]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 14.
> >
> [49][56]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> 0wPc
> >
> N8E=[57]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour
> > ce=footer
> > > 15. mailto:[50][58]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 16.
> >
> [51][59]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> Y5+n
> >
> [60]VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_
> sour

> > ce=footer
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [52][61]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [53][62]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD%40a
> dama

> > stor.
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [54][63]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [55][64]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-A
> BF1-
> > 4EFFBCAB6CFE%[65]40gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [56][66]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [57][67]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWgvrf2
> yRgD
> > DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%[68]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [58][69]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [59][70]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_
> m2Q6
> > UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%[71]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [60][72]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [61][73]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY
> 4O0J
> > %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%[74]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [62][75]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [63][76]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9
> 422-
> > B4ACEF9EFC3E%[77]40gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > an email to [64][78]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [65][79]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7CKP
> Pv8Esh%
> > 2B8sgmEWpgMa8OQnBUawRgArmQ%[80]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [66][81]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [67][82]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-9
> 15B-
> > F11474AB2427%[83]40icloud.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,

> > send an email to [68][84]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [69][85]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85SG
> 4Yt4
> > gp75q5X5hX8ycVLvJi0Su5qvUMw%[86]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > an email to [70][87]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [71][88]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ-L
> Uz2UEoV
> > %3DYA%2BsiZ-%3D-5hJx%3DScTbCxiBg%[89]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > an email to [72][90]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> send an email to [166]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [167]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/Zjhv5yQ7vbPtGVMm%40adam
> astor.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> an email to [168]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [169]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2L%3DLNecQ_%3DAVQtset
> U-ZJUjWV8nRnkiUtqcswVoe4KfDKQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org

> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 80. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 81. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 82. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-915B-
> 83. http://40icloud.com/
> 84. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 85. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85SG4Yt4

> 86. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 87. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 6, 2024, 10:41:10 AMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

"I doubt Ukrainian women and children commit a lot of crime." <-- And that is my point. It is not the immigration, but the people. If young men are causing the crime, then round up all the young men and kill them or chase them away or make them old men or change them into young woman (I hear you can do that now)... please don't take it out on the rest of us.

"I don't see why states are all that different from other committees and organisations" <-- And that is exactly my point. Government is different and we know it... as Libertarians we are against government imposing labour regulations on us, but not against company HR departments setting labour policies. We're against taxation, but not annual subscription fees. We're against big government, but not big companies or big home owners associations... unless they are big as a result of government protections. The key difference is that companies, HR departments, associations and committees will let you leave and join the competition, whereas government will lock you up for even trying. They are not the same.

"Regarding your humanitarian angle..." <-- Ok... I didn't think I was making a humanitarian point, because I agree - that's the kind of argument that would make me support open borders, which I most definitely do NOT support... so let me clarify.

If several of the houses up the street burn down, you can be one of a few types of people;

a) grab some blankets, go see if you can help and offer to house all or many of the victims for as long as they need it,

b) go see if anyone needs help and offer to take some of them in for a day or two until they can make another plan,

c) do nothing, but if one or some of them come to your door for help, offer some shelter and food,

d) go see if you can sell them some food or rent out your backyard cottage to any of them,

e) same as (d), but you try to get them into a bidding war so you can get the maximum price out of them,

e) grab your shotgun and stand in the front yard in case any of them dare come to you for help.

On the spectrum of humanity, I think people in politics try to a) lump us all into a bucket of some sort and b) polarize our views by having only two buckets, one each at the very extremes of the spectrum of options. Option (a) is akin to the open border argument and it is very noble, but we cannot legislate nobility - you can praise and reward people who do that kind of thing, but you cannot force them to do it. You cannot impose that burden on people without consent... which is what I think you're saying and what I agree an open border policy does, as argued by the Left.

At the other end of the scale, it's a bit heartless to not help your fellow man at all and to take an aggressively defensive stance from the outset, which is what I think the closed border argument does, as argued by the Right. I think both sides are wrong - it does not need to be either of those two extreme positions. Take away the force and regulation and government and let each person act the way they are inclined to act. Some will help more than they can really afford, others will help a little and others still will not help. Why not let every person choose how they want to respond and centralize the decision ? We know centralized decision-making doesn't work, so why do it here ?

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 6, 2024, 10:42:23 AMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

Exactly !

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2L%3DLNecQ_%3DAVQtsetU-ZJUjWV8nRnkiUtqcswVoe4KfDKQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Erik Peers

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May 6, 2024, 11:02:27 AMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

"We know centralized decision-making doesn't work, so why do it here ?"

I assume you refer to the decision to have a border.

Because individuals can deal with individuals but groups need to deal with groups.

There is limited capacity for a community to integrate migrants. When they come at a pace faster than that there are negative consequences for the residents.

Maybe then the border discussion is not about whether there should be immigration or not, but what the pace of that immigration should be.

What is the difference between immigration and invasion?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S7PnXV-HksOMPck-1GpqJSgyv1oXTocYySK971fBnX_YQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 6, 2024, 11:50:43 AMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

""We know centralized decision-making doesn't work, so why do it here ?" I assume you refer to the decision to have a border."

Nope. I mean centralized decision-making in general... and note the emphasis on decision-making, so I'm not referring to the inspirational speech of a CEO.

"Because individuals can deal with individuals but groups need to deal with groups."

That makes no sense. Chuck Norris can round-house kick many Texas villains. All of the LAPD can kick a single Mr. Watts. I can stuff at least 5 marshmallows into my mouth, I don't need a committee to help me chew.

"What is the difference between immigration and invasion?"

Are you getting enough sleep ? Blink in morse code if the Nigerians have taken you hostage and you need help.

S.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uO%2BfBVfyx4wdK8F1ZesfgzyLBPFTw9%3Dp%2B6HaMJ3N6q_rA%40mail.gmail.com.

Petrus Potgieter

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May 6, 2024, 5:09:09 PMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

I agree with Erik's "groups need to deal with groups" and it is 100% in line with what happens in practice.

Although I want as little of it (government) as possible, I am unable to see government as fundamentally different from other organisations except in scale and the number of guns they have. I have had subscriptions that have been nearly impossible to cancel although I was perfectly within my rights to do so. Many, in fact. I need paperwork from my complex's body corporate in order to sell – in fact, I think it is easier to leave the country.

Companies exist only because there are special legal arrangements (put in place by governments) to make them possible so their very existence is because of government protection. The scale is really different though – the government generally really does have a lot of guns. But you can leave and go live under another government. In most cases, much better to leave things to companies though.

I would say there are limited circumstances under which centralised decision-making is practical e.g. the standardisation of units of measurement so that everybody in the realm means the same thing by "one foot". This was slowly done in Britain under Henry VII, Elizabeth I and others. The French did not (until the metric system) which they managed to impose only because it solve a much bigger problem than it would have solve in Britain – at the time there was no standard French unit of measurement at all. Now, you might say that standardisation is useless but you cannot say that it would evolve naturally through market mechanisms because it never has. Either that or it would require quite an ingenious argument which I would be interested to hear. The legal establishment of limited liability companies also strikes me as an efficient imposition from the centre.

About the humanitarian business, I have not much further to say except that I don't want other people to impose their humanitarian decisions on me. A controlled border is basically part of the definition of a country and is therefore as legitimate as the country itself. And I agree that the country is not a terribly legitimate notion but it is what it is.

I hope nobody thinks that I have an aggressively defensive stance about borders. My position is that I would happily combine a cash-based (deposit refundable from taxes or when leaving) immigration system for SA with essentially free entry for anyone with a (relatively lightly) vetted university degree and who is able to pass a basic test of English, Afrikaans or Zulu language ability. I also do not want people stopped on the street to show their papers – I prefer the border to be controlled at the border. This is of course also a bit unrealistic in our case, but anyway.

Unless we are magically transported to some yet unseen private property utopia, immigrants enjoy the facilities (why else would they come?) and it is not illegitimate to charge or limit them. If there is no problem absorbing Afghan immigrants (white, please note, like me) in unlimited numbers, why is Kabul any different from Salt Lake City right now?

Op 06-05-2024 om 17:02:09 +0200 skryf Erik Peers erik...@gmail.com:

> <[2]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> [3]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > On May 5, 2024, at 06:24, Erik Peers <[4]erik...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >

> > [1][5]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> > [3][7]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 17:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via LibertarianSA
> > <[4][8]li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> > Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those who
> create
> > borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the supposition
> that
> > boarders are either a) created, and b) came about arbitrarily.
> > Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in the
> form of
> > either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the
> history of
> > civilisation instead of trying to use the rationalisations of
> ‘consent’
> > or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the world.
> > Gavin
> >
> > On 02 May 2024, at 16:41, Trevor Watkins

> <[5][9]bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Authoritarians who create borders generally do so arbitrarily -
> follow
> > a line on a map, a line of longitude or latitude (a la
> Namibia), the
> > course of a river. They restrict who may CROSS that border,
> once again
> > based on an arbitrary set of assumptions - do you have the
> right piece
> > of paper, are you the right citizenship, colour, culture.
> > Famously when Tsar Nicholas (I think) drew a line on the map of
> Siberia
> > specifying the path of the railroad, he put a bumpin it caused
> by
> > getting his finger in the way of the pencil. That 30 km bump
> was
> > faithfully built into the resulting railway.
> > Our enemy is the power of authoritarians, rather than the
> actual
> > borders.
> > Trevor Watkins

> > [6][10]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

> > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 06:34, Stephen vJ

> <[7][11]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > <[8][12]sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Where does it leave the original group ? Like Trevor said
> below, on the
> > losing side. Just like the neanderthals in Europe, just like
> the Dutch
> > at the Cape, just like the Cree in Western Canada. It sucks. I
> don't
> > think any of us think that is a desirable outcome. What I'm
> saying and
> > I think Trevor is saying is that government and borders are not
> the
> > solution. Maybe life just sucks and there is no solution. Maybe
> > charitable corporations in a Libertarian utopia could have
> saved the
> > Han from the influx of Martians in 2086. Who knows ? What we do
> know is
> > that leaving it to the same people as those who run the SA Post
> Office
> > is unlikely to be optimal.
> > S.
> > Op Wo. 1 Mei 2024 om 10:23 het Erik Peers

> <[9][13]erik...@gmail.com>

> <[11][15]erik...@gmail.com>

> > geskryf:
> >
> > Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is in
> practice
> > where Libertarianism is tested.
> > It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there will be
> no
> > government, no organised crime bully to systematically steal
> our money.
> > The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect you
> then other
> > bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> > This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.
> > On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ,

> <[12][16]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > [14][18]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > > <[1][15][19]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > <[2][16][20]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > <[3][17][21]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > geskryf:
> > >
> > > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is superfluous to
> the
> > argument.
> > >
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> > q3l
> > > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> > <[4][18][22]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > "... in your own country."
> > > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > > Stephen.
> > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> [7][21][25]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [8][22][26]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af
> 3-89
> > 93-2

> > > e6422626687n%[23][27]40googlegroups.com.

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> > > SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[35][39]40mail.gmail.com.
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> BF1-

> > 4EFFBCAB6CFE%[65]40gmail.com.

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> m2Q6

> > UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%[71]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [61][73]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY
> 4O0J

> > %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%[74]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [63][76]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9
> 422-

> > B4ACEF9EFC3E%[77]40gmail.com.

> >
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> Pv8Esh%

> > 2B8sgmEWpgMa8OQnBUawRgArmQ%[80]40mail.gmail.com.

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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
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> [67][82]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-9
> 15B-
> > F11474AB2427%[83]40icloud.com.
> >

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> 4Yt4

> > gp75q5X5hX8ycVLvJi0Su5qvUMw%[86]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [71][88]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ-L
> Uz2UEoV

> > %3DYA%2BsiZ-%3D-5hJx%3DScTbCxiBg%[89]40mail.gmail.com.

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> [167]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/Zjhv5yQ7vbPtGVMm%40adam
> astor.

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> [169]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S7PnXV-HksOMPck-1
> GpqJSgyv1oXTocYySK971fBnX_YQ%40mail.gmail.com.

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> [171]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uO%2BfBVfyx4wdK8F1Ze
> sfgzyLBPFTw9%3Dp%2B6HaMJ3N6q_rA%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 2. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 5. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 6. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 7. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:li...@googlegroups.com
> 9. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 12. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 13. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 14. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 15. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 16. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 17. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 18. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 46. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 47. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993-
> 48. http://2e6422...@googlegroups.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 49. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 50. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCXf
> 51. http://0fmpq30zxlnxc...@mail.gmail.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_sour

> 52. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 53. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-BB66-
> 54. http://9b4e1c...@gmail.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 55. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 56. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd0wPc
> 57. http://94eooswucxd...@mail.gmail.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_sour

> 58. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 59. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2Y5+n
> 60. http://vsgmu3jtvd-yk...@mail.gmail.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_sour
> 61. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 62. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD@adama
> 63. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 64. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5-ABF1-
> 65. http://40gmail.com/

> 66. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 67. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd=CWgvrf2yRgD
> 68. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 69. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 70. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6
> 71. http://40mail.gmail.com/

> 72. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 169. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S7PnXV-HksOMPck-1Gp...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> 170. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 171. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uO+fBVfyx4wdK8F1ZesfgzyLBPFTw9=p+6HaMJ...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

unread,

May 6, 2024, 7:18:39 PMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

I am enjoying this discussion immensely. While I was having lunch today, YouTube suggested this video and it made me realize just how silly and history-driven borders are. None of these have anything to do with immigrants and so maybe we've got the whole thing upside down... maybe borders are not about immigrants at all and maybe it's all about power and dominion... or maybe it was and now it's becoming more about immigrants... anyway, I thought this was a interesting take; https://youtu.be/CaJt2r4-suo

A few comments on what you said below Petrus;

1. Ok, so Chuck Norris can only round-house kick one villain at a time and LAPD officers need to take turns kicking Mr. Watts. Gotcha. ;-)

2. Ok, conceded - I too have had an SABC TV license and a Readers Digest subscription. I will agree they are impossible to get out of without immigrating and even then it is not guaranteed. ;-)

3. Canada, contrary to popular belief, is NOT exclusively metric. It is one of those places which did not enforce a change or a standard... it has an official standard, but that is almost completely ignored by the people. Canada is 100% metric when talking to Americans in order to maximize the enjoyment of putting them down for being the only place on earth still left using the Imperial system... but I'd like to point out that all materials for building a house in Canada are imperial, the depths of snow is measured in feet and inches, fruit and vegetables are weighed in pounds and distance is expressed in terms of hours. Also from experience, I can tell you that a common standard is NOT necessary. People here will happily tell you that the snow lay 2 feet deep for half a kilometer, so you don't even need a common standard within one sentence or a single brain. As for what each of those measurements mean exactly... the few people who need to be absolutely accurate, take measures to ensure that they are - nobody else gives two spotted snowy owl hoots (which is one of the generally accepted measurements of indifference b.t.w. as well as being a reference to measuring ecology vs. unemployment ala George Bush Snr.). My point is that people do indeed, more often than not, use measurements which are vaguely defined, geographically unique, contextual, etc... and those expressions of measurement do indeed come about spontaneously, work fine and don't cause a tower of Babelonian chaos.

4. "I have not much further to say except that I don't want other people to impose their humanitarian decisions on me" and "I agree that the country is not a terribly legitimate notion but it is what it is."... I totally agree.

5. Maybe because there are too many Mormon temples in Salt Lake City ? ;-)

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 6, 2024, 7:34:27 PMMay 6

to li...@googlegroups.com

I guess I should provide context and references for at least some of my statements...

Bush on owls: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4783549/user-clip-neck-owls

Salt Lake City: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKH6EkSVazY

S.

Petrus Potgieter

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May 7, 2024, 12:12:38 AMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

Thank you for the information about the Imperial system in Canada. I agree that it is not necessary to impose either metric or whatever system BUT it is useful, according to me, to define the foot and the meter in Pretoria or Ottawa or whatever. What I mean is that before the Revolution, a pound (livre) had not only different values in different parts of France but also different numbers of ounces in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_French_units_of_measurement

I think it is useful to define the pound, even if not imposing it. Now, it could be that modern communication would have eventually led to units of measurement in France converging to a standard and I would be delighted to hear if this actually happened somewhere.

Op 06-05-2024 om 17:18:23 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

> I am enjoying this discussion immensely. While I was having lunch
> today, YouTube suggested this video and it made me realize just how
> silly and history-driven borders are. None of these have anything to do
> with immigrants and so maybe we've got the whole thing upside down...
> maybe borders are not about immigrants at all and maybe it's all about
> power and dominion... or maybe it was and now it's becoming more about
> immigrants... anyway, I thought this was a interesting

> take; [1]https://youtu.be/CaJt2r4-suo

> <[2]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> [3]erik...@gmail.com:

> > <[2][5]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> > [3][6]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> <[4][7]erik...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> [1][5][8]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> > > [3][7][10]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 -
> www.individualist.one

> > > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 17:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via
> LibertarianSA

> > > <[4][8][11]li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those
> who
> > create
> > > borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the
> supposition
> > that
> > > boarders are either a) created, and b) came about
> arbitrarily.
> > > Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in
> the
> > form of
> > > either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the
> > history of
> > > civilisation instead of trying to use the
> rationalisations of
> > ‘consent’
> > > or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the
> world.
> > > Gavin
> > >
> > > On 02 May 2024, at 16:41, Trevor Watkins

> > > [6][10][13]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 -

> www.individualist.one
> > > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 06:34, Stephen vJ

> > <[7][11][14]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > <[9][13][16]erik...@gmail.com>

> > <[11][15][18]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > geskryf:
> > >
> > > Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is
> in
> > practice
> > > where Libertarianism is tested.
> > > It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there
> will be
> > no
> > > government, no organised crime bully to systematically
> steal
> > our money.
> > > The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect
> you
> > then other
> > > bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> > > This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.
> > > On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ,

> > <[12][16][19]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > [14][18][21]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > > > <[1][15][19][22]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > > <[2][16][20][23]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > <[3][17][21][24]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > > geskryf:
> > > >
> > > > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is
> superfluous to
> > the
> > > argument.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> > > q3l
> > > > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> > > <[4][18][22][25]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "... in your own country."
> > > > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > > > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > > > Stephen.
> > > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > [7][21][25][28]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [8][22][26][29]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663
> -4af
> > 3-89
> > > 93-2
> > > > e6422626687n%[23][27][30]40googlegroups.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
> > > Google
> > > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails
> > from
> > > it, send
> > > > an email to

> > [9][24][28][31]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [10][25][29][32]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3
> DcEL
> > YeFA
> > > bNzCXf0
> > > >
> Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[26][30][33]40mail.gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
> > > Google
> > > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop
> receiving
> > emails from
> > > it,
> > > > send an email to

> > [11][27][31][34]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [12][28][32][35]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E
> 4-4A
> > 94-B
> > > B66-
> > > > 9B4E1CC2C861%[29][33][36]40gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
> > > Google
> > > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop
> receiving
> > emails from
> > > it,
> > > > send an email to

> > [13][30][34][37]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [14][31][35][38]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_
> q7W3
> > f5Kd
> > > 0wPc
> > > >
> N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[32][36][39]40mail.gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
> > > Google
> > > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails
> > from
> > > it, send
> > > > an email to

> > [15][33][37][40]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [16][34][38][41]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2
> iqqN
> > 9sH2
> > > Y5%2BnV
> > > >
> SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[35][39][42]40mail.gmail.com.
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1. mailto:[36][40][43]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 2. mailto:[37][41][44]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 3. mailto:[38][42][45]erik...@gmail.com
> > > > 4. mailto:[39][43][46]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 5. mailto:[40][44][47]erik...@gmail.com
> > > > 6. mailto:[41][45][48]bas...@gmail.com
> > > > 7.
> mailto:[42][46][49]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 8.
> > >
> >
> [43][47][50]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4a
> f3-8
> > 993-
> > >
> >
> [48][51]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=f
> oote
> > r
> > > > 9.
> mailto:[44][49][52]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 10.
> > >
> >
> [45][50][53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYe
> FAbN
> > zCXf
> > >
> >
> [51][54]0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_
> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > > 11.
> mailto:[46][52][55]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 12.
> > >
> >
> [47][53][56]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A
> 94-B
> > B66-
> > >
> [54][57]9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > > 13.
> mailto:[48][55][58]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 14.
> > >
> >
> [49][56][59]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3
> f5Kd
> > 0wPc
> > >
> >
> N8E=[57][60]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_
> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > > 15.
> mailto:[50][58][61]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 16.
> > >
> >
> [51][59][62]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN
> 9sH2
> > Y5+n
> > >
> >
> [60][63]VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_

> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [52][61][64]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [53][62][65]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD
> %40a

> > dama
> > > stor.
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [54][63][66]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [55][64][67]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47
> B5-A
> > BF1-
> > > 4EFFBCAB6CFE%[65][68]40gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [56][66][69]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [57][67][70]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWg
> vrf2
> > yRgD
> > >
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%[68][71]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [58][69][72]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [59][70][73]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx
> 6na_
> > m2Q6
> > >
> UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%[71][74]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [60][72][75]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [61][73][76]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N
> 23sY
> > 4O0J
> > >
> %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%[74][77]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [62][75][78]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [63][76][79]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40
> EE-9
> > 422-
> > > B4ACEF9EFC3E%[77][80]40gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [64][78][81]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [65][79][82]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz
> 7CKP
> > Pv8Esh%
> > > 2B8sgmEWpgMa8OQnBUawRgArmQ%[80][83]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [66][81][84]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [67][82][85]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-40
> 35-9
> > 15B-
> > > F11474AB2427%[83][86]40icloud.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [68][84][87]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [69][85][88]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR
> 85SG
> > 4Yt4
> > > gp75q5X5hX8ycVLvJi0Su5qvUMw%[86][89]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [70][87][90]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [71][88][91]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMn
> CQ-L
> > Uz2UEoV
> > >
> %3DYA%2BsiZ-%3D-5hJx%3DScTbCxiBg%[89][92]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [72][90][93]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [73][91][94]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-46
> 69-9
> > A92-E00
> > > 9A2790061%[92][95]40gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
> [93][96]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE
> > > 2. mailto:[94][97]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 3. mailto:[95][98]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 4. mailto:[96][99]li...@googlegroups.com
> > > 5. mailto:[97][100]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 6. mailto:[98][101]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 7. mailto:[99][102]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 8. mailto:[100][103]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 9. mailto:[101][104]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 10. mailto:[102][105]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 11. mailto:[103][106]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 12. mailto:[104][107]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 13. mailto:[105][108]pet...@potgieter.org
> > > 14. mailto:[106][109]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 15. mailto:[107][110]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 16. mailto:[108][111]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 17. mailto:[109][112]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 18. mailto:[110][113]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 19. mailto:[111][114]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 20. mailto:[112][115]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 21. mailto:[113][116]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 22.
> >
> [114][117]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3
> -8993
> > -2
> > > 23. [115][118]http://40googlegroups.com/
> > > 24. mailto:[116][119]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 25.
> >
> [117][120]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> bNzCX
> > f0
> > > 26. [118][121]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > > 27. mailto:[119][122]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 28.
> >
> [120][123]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94
> -BB66
> > -
> > > 29. [121][124]http://40gmail.com/
> > > 30. mailto:[122][125]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 31.
> >
> [123][126]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5
> Kd0wP
> > c
> > > 32. [124][127]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > > 33. mailto:[125][128]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 34.
> >
> [126][129]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9s
> H2Y5+
> > nV
> > > 35. [127][130]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > > 36. mailto:[128][131]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 37. mailto:[129][132]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 38. mailto:[130][133]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 39. mailto:[131][134]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 40. mailto:[132][135]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 41. mailto:[133][136]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 42. mailto:[134][137]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 43.
> >
> [135][138]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3
> -8993
> >
> -[139]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foo
> ter
> > > 44. mailto:[136][140]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 45.
> >
> [137][141]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> bNzCX
> >
> [142]f0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 46. mailto:[138][143]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 47.
> >
> [139][144]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94
> -BB66
> >
> -[145]9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 48. mailto:[140][146]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 49.
> >
> [141][147]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5
> Kd0wP
> >
> cN8E=[148]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 50. mailto:[142][149]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 51.
> >
> [143][150]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9s
> H2Y5+
> >
> [151]nVSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 52. mailto:[144][152]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 53.
> >
> [145][153]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD@a
> damas
> > tor
> > > 54. mailto:[146][154]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 55.
> >
> [147][155]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5
> -ABF1
> > -[156]4EFFBC...@gmail.com
> > > 56. mailto:[148][157]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 57.
> >
> [149][158]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd=CWgvrf2
> yRgDD
> >
> [159]WRqhHQYsjZgKNj...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 58. mailto:[150][160]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 59.
> >
> [151][161]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6n
> a_m2Q
> >
> 6UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX=[162]n...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 60. mailto:[152][163]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 61.
> >
> [153][164]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23
> sY4O0
> >
> J=[165]rrWcXQ1HrdgzZ...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 62. mailto:[154][166]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 63.
> >
> [155][167]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE
> -9422
> >
> -[168]B4ACEF...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 64. mailto:[156][169]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 65.
> >
> [157][170]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7C
> KPPv8
> >
> [171]Esh+8sgmEWpgMa...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 66. mailto:[158][172]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 67.
> >
> [159][173]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035
> -915B
> >
> -[174]F11474...@icloud.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 68. mailto:[160][175]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 69.
> >
> [161][176]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85
> SG4Yt
> >
> [177]4gp75q5X5hX8yc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 70. mailto:[162][178]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 71.
> >
> [163][179]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ
> -LUz2
> >
> UEoV=YA+siZ-=-5hJx=[180]ScTb...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 72. mailto:[164][181]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 73.
> >
> [165][182]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-4669
> -9A92
> >
> -[183]E009A2...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,
> > send an email to

> [166][184]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [167][185]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/Zjhv5yQ7vbPtGVMm%4
> 0adam

> > astor.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,
> > send an email to

> [168][186]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [169][187]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S7PnXV-HksOM
> Pck-1
> > GpqJSgyv1oXTocYySK971fBnX_YQ%[188]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send

> > an email to [170][189]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [171][190]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uO%2BfBVfyx4
> wdK8F1Ze
> > sfgzyLBPFTw9%3Dp%2B6HaMJ3N6q_rA%[191]40mail.gmail.com.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[192]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 2. mailto:[193]pet...@potgieter.org
> > 3. mailto:[194]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 4. mailto:[195]erik...@gmail.com
> > 5. [196]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE
> > 6. mailto:[197]bas...@gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[198]bas...@gmail.com
> > 8. mailto:[199]li...@googlegroups.com
> > 9. mailto:[200]bas...@gmail.com
> > 10. mailto:[201]bas...@gmail.com
> > 11. mailto:[202]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 12. mailto:[203]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 13. mailto:[204]erik...@gmail.com
> > 14. mailto:[205]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 15. mailto:[206]erik...@gmail.com
> > 16. mailto:[207]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 17. mailto:[208]pet...@potgieter.org
> > 18. mailto:[209]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 19. mailto:[210]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 20. mailto:[211]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 21. mailto:[212]erik...@gmail.com
> > 22. mailto:[213]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 23. mailto:[214]erik...@gmail.com
> > 24. mailto:[215]bas...@gmail.com
> > 25. mailto:[216]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 26.
> [217]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-89
> > 27. [218]http://40googlegroups.com/
> > 28. mailto:[219]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 29.
> [220]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> > 30. [221]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > 31. mailto:[222]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 32.
> [223]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94-B
> > 33. [224]http://40gmail.com/
> > 34. mailto:[225]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 35.
> [226]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5Kd
> > 36. [227]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > 37. mailto:[228]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 38.
> [229]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9sH2
> > 39. [230]http://40mail.gmail.com/
> > 40. mailto:[231]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 41. mailto:[232]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 42. mailto:[233]erik...@gmail.com
> > 43. mailto:[234]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > 44. mailto:[235]erik...@gmail.com
> > 45. mailto:[236]bas...@gmail.com
> > 46. mailto:[237]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > 47.
> [238]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993
> -
> > 48.
> [239]http://2e6422...@googlegroups.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_sou

> rce=footer
> > 49. mailto:[240]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to [363]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [364]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjlG7P7ixh7SPWMQ%40adam

> astor.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> an email to [365]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [366]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S4ppfWVt7VmjXYFSj2bu
> 7yGA3-onPNUEXGreDtYiErC%2BA%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://youtu.be/CaJt2r4-suo
> 2. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org

> 3. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 4. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 5. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 6. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 7. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 8. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 9. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 71. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 72. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 73. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_

> 74. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 75. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 76. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY
> 77. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 78. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 79. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9
> 80. http://40gmail.com/
> 81. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 82. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7CKP
> 83. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 84. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 85. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-9
> 86. http://40icloud.com/
> 87. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 88. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85SG

> 89. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 90. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 91. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ-L
> 92. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 93. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 94. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-4669-9
> 95. http://40gmail.com/
> 96. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 97. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 98. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

Petrus Potgieter

unread,

May 7, 2024, 12:17:17 AMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

I have been to SLC many times and like it a lot. The Mormons are also not that eager to convert you because they can do it after you die which is very practical. A rare group of (semi) Christians who believe that making money in this world is good. Again, so practical.

Op 06-05-2024 om 17:34:10 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

> I guess I should provide context and references for at least some of my
> statements...
> Bush on

> owls: [1]https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4783549/user-clip-neck-owls
> Salt Lake City: [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKH6EkSVazY

> S.
> Op Ma. 6 Mei 2024 om 17:18 het Stephen van Jaarsveldt

> <[3]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

>
> I am enjoying this discussion immensely. While I was having lunch
> today, YouTube suggested this video and it made me realize just how
> silly and history-driven borders are. None of these have anything to do
> with immigrants and so maybe we've got the whole thing upside down...
> maybe borders are not about immigrants at all and maybe it's all about
> power and dominion... or maybe it was and now it's becoming more about
> immigrants... anyway, I thought this was a interesting

> take; [4]https://youtu.be/CaJt2r4-suo

> <[5]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> [6]erik...@gmail.com:

> > <[2][8]pet...@potgieter.org> geskryf:

> > [3][9]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> <[4][10]erik...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> [1][5][11]https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> > > [3][7][13]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 -

> www.individualist.one
> > > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 17:55, 'Gavin Weiman' via
> LibertarianSA

> > > <[4][8][14]li...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Just like a Libertarian ‘Ideologue' to conflate ’those
> who
> > create
> > > borders’ with ‘authoritarians’ and even worse, the
> supposition
> > that
> > > boarders are either a) created, and b) came about
> arbitrarily.
> > > Its about time classically liberal philosophy whether in
> the
> > form of
> > > either Anarchism or Minarchism within the context of the
> > history of
> > > civilisation instead of trying to use the
> rationalisations of
> > ‘consent’
> > > or NAP as the sole lenses though which you perceive the
> world.
> > > Gavin
> > >
> > > On 02 May 2024, at 16:41, Trevor Watkins

> > > [6][10][16]bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 -

> www.individualist.one
> > > On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 06:34, Stephen vJ

> > <[7][11][17]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > <[9][13][19]erik...@gmail.com>

> > <[11][15][21]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > geskryf:
> > >
> > > Nope, you can't just self identify as impractical. It is
> in
> > practice
> > > where Libertarianism is tested.
> > > It is a lovely idea to think that in Libertaria there
> will be
> > no
> > > government, no organised crime bully to systematically
> steal
> > our money.
> > > The reality is that if you don't have a bully to protect
> you
> > then other
> > > bullies will come and eat your lunch.
> > > This should be a forum of applied Libertarianism.
> > > On Wed, 01 May 2024, 04:37 Stephen vJ,

> > <[12][16][22]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > [14][18][24]sjaar...@gmail.com:

> > > > <[1][15][19][25]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > > <[2][16][20][26]sjaar...@gmail.com> geskryf:

> > > <[3][17][21][27]erik...@gmail.com>

> > > > geskryf:
> > > >
> > > > Good point. Delete "own country" as it is
> superfluous to
> > the
> > > argument.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> [AIorK4wFuV0w0GntVaZdqdlevK5QS92uIN9VsK8EBESl2UESO3qts5Wui1R9TI8vgQc
> > > q3l
> > > > JN5fgjUKJUphtv]
> > > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 14:21, Stephen vJ

> > > <[4][18][22][28]sjaar...@gmail.com>

> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "... in your own country."
> > > > So you're a nationalist. Ok.
> > > > You don't have a country. The country has you.
> > > > Stephen.
> > > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 01:18, Erik Peers

> > [7][21][25][31]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [8][22][26][32]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663
> -4af
> > 3-89
> > > 93-2
> > > > e6422626687n%[23][27][33]40googlegroups.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
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> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails
> > from
> > > it, send
> > > > an email to

> > [9][24][28][34]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [10][25][29][35]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj%3
> DcEL
> > YeFA
> > > bNzCXf0
> > > >
> Fmpq30ZXLNXcEqkoJgYO3x-H0w%[26][30][36]40mail.gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
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> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop
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> > emails from
> > > it,
> > > > send an email to

> > [11][27][31][37]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [12][28][32][38]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E
> 4-4A
> > 94-B
> > > B66-
> > > > 9B4E1CC2C861%[29][33][39]40gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
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> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop
> receiving
> > emails from
> > > it,
> > > > send an email to

> > [13][30][34][40]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [14][31][35][41]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_
> q7W3
> > f5Kd
> > > 0wPc
> > > >
> N8E%3D94EOOsWuCxDohSFOK4M57kA%[32][36][42]40mail.gmail.com.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are
> subscribed to
> > the
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> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails
> > from
> > > it, send
> > > > an email to

> > [15][33][37][43]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >

> [16][34][38][44]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2
> iqqN
> > 9sH2
> > > Y5%2BnV
> > > >
> SgMU3jtVd-YK52BYO5O7PJg7aQ%[35][39][45]40mail.gmail.com.
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1. mailto:[36][40][46]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 2. mailto:[37][41][47]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 3. mailto:[38][42][48]erik...@gmail.com
> > > > 4. mailto:[39][43][49]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > > 5. mailto:[40][44][50]erik...@gmail.com
> > > > 6. mailto:[41][45][51]bas...@gmail.com
> > > > 7.
> mailto:[42][46][52]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 8.
> > >
> >
> [43][47][53]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4a
> f3-8
> > 993-
> > >
> >
> [48][54]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=f
> oote
> > r
> > > > 9.
> mailto:[44][49][55]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 10.
> > >
> >
> [45][50][56]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYe
> FAbN
> > zCXf
> > >
> >
> [51][57]0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_
> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > > 11.
> mailto:[46][52][58]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 12.
> > >
> >
> [47][53][59]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A
> 94-B
> > B66-
> > >
> [54][60]9B4E1C...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > > 13.
> mailto:[48][55][61]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 14.
> > >
> >
> [49][56][62]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3
> f5Kd
> > 0wPc
> > >
> >
> N8E=[57][63]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_
> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > > 15.
> mailto:[50][58][64]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > > 16.
> > >
> >
> [51][59][65]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN
> 9sH2
> > Y5+n
> > >
> >
> [60][66]VSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&
> utm_

> > sour
> > > ce=footer
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [52][61][67]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [53][62][68]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD
> %40a

> > dama
> > > stor.
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [54][63][69]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [55][64][70]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47
> B5-A
> > BF1-
> > > 4EFFBCAB6CFE%[65][71]40gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> emails from
> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [56][66][72]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [57][67][73]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd%3DCWg
> vrf2
> > yRgD
> > >
> DWRqhHQYsjZgKNj4Wf9i50u9vvWwA%[68][74]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [58][69][75]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [59][70][76]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx
> 6na_
> > m2Q6
> > >
> UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX%3DnQ%[71][77]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [60][72][78]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [61][73][79]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N
> 23sY
> > 4O0J
> > >
> %3DrrWcXQ1HrdgzZe_%2B9rR-CS44xw%[74][80]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [62][75][81]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [63][76][82]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40
> EE-9
> > 422-
> > > B4ACEF9EFC3E%[77][83]40gmail.com.

> > >
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> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
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> >

> [65][79][85]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz
> 7CKP
> > Pv8Esh%
> > > 2B8sgmEWpgMa8OQnBUawRgArmQ%[80][86]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
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> [66][81][87]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [67][82][88]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-40
> 35-9
> > 15B-
> > > F11474AB2427%[83][89]40icloud.com.

> > >
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> > it,
> > > send an email to

> [68][84][90]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [69][85][91]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR
> 85SG
> > 4Yt4
> > > gp75q5X5hX8ycVLvJi0Su5qvUMw%[86][92]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the
> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [70][87][93]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [71][88][94]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMn
> CQ-L
> > Uz2UEoV
> > >
> %3DYA%2BsiZ-%3D-5hJx%3DScTbCxiBg%[89][95]40mail.gmail.com.

> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > Google
> > > Groups "LibertarianSA" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from
> > it, send
> > > an email to

> [72][90][96]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >

> [73][91][97]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-46
> 69-9
> > A92-E00
> > > 9A2790061%[92][98]40gmail.com.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
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> > > 2. mailto:[94][100]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 3. mailto:[95][101]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 4. mailto:[96][102]li...@googlegroups.com
> > > 5. mailto:[97][103]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 6. mailto:[98][104]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 7. mailto:[99][105]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 8. mailto:[100][106]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 9. mailto:[101][107]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 10. mailto:[102][108]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 11. mailto:[103][109]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 12. mailto:[104][110]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 13. mailto:[105][111]pet...@potgieter.org
> > > 14. mailto:[106][112]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 15. mailto:[107][113]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 16. mailto:[108][114]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 17. mailto:[109][115]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 18. mailto:[110][116]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 19. mailto:[111][117]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 20. mailto:[112][118]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 21. mailto:[113][119]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 22.
> >
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> -8993
> > -2
> > > 23. [115][121]http://40googlegroups.com/
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> > > 25.
> >
> [117][123]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> bNzCX
> > f0
> > > 26. [118][124]http://40mail.gmail.com/
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> > > 28.
> >
> [120][126]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94
> -BB66
> > -
> > > 29. [121][127]http://40gmail.com/
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> > > 31.
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> [123][129]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5
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> > c
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> > > 34.
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> H2Y5+
> > nV
> > > 35. [127][133]http://40mail.gmail.com/
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> > > 39. mailto:[131][137]sjaar...@gmail.com
> > > 40. mailto:[132][138]erik...@gmail.com
> > > 41. mailto:[133][139]bas...@gmail.com
> > > 42. mailto:[134][140]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 43.
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> [135][141]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3
> -8993
> >
> -[142]2e6422...@googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foo
> ter
> > > 44. mailto:[136][143]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 45.
> >
> [137][144]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFA
> bNzCX
> >
> [145]f0Fmpq30ZXLNXc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 46. mailto:[138][146]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 47.
> >
> [139][147]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/39B2FFB7-E3E4-4A94
> -BB66
> >
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> > > 49.
> >
> [141][150]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPuEP_q7W3f5
> Kd0wP
> >
> cN8E=[151]94EOOsWuCxD...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
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> > > 51.
> >
> [143][153]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S6J3R2iqqN9s
> H2Y5+
> >
> [154]nVSgMU3jtVd-YK...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 52. mailto:[144][155]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 53.
> >
> [145][156]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjFcmtF7TjxOOovD@a
> damas
> > tor
> > > 54. mailto:[146][157]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 55.
> >
> [147][158]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/A1CE29A7-4E47-47B5
> -ABF1
> > -[159]4EFFBC...@gmail.com
> > > 56. mailto:[148][160]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 57.
> >
> [149][161]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uMDd=CWgvrf2
> yRgDD
> >
> [162]WRqhHQYsjZgKNj...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 58. mailto:[150][163]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 59.
> >
> [151][164]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6n
> a_m2Q
> >
> 6UNk5_TwX65Er5PTHEbRimmmX=[165]n...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 60. mailto:[152][166]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 61.
> >
> [153][167]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23
> sY4O0
> >
> J=[168]rrWcXQ1HrdgzZ...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 62. mailto:[154][169]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 63.
> >
> [155][170]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE
> -9422
> >
> -[171]B4ACEF...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 64. mailto:[156][172]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 65.
> >
> [157][173]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7C
> KPPv8
> >
> [174]Esh+8sgmEWpgMa...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 66. mailto:[158][175]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 67.
> >
> [159][176]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035
> -915B
> >
> -[177]F11474...@icloud.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> > > 68. mailto:[160][178]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 69.
> >
> [161][179]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85
> SG4Yt
> >
> [180]4gp75q5X5hX8yc...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 70. mailto:[162][181]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 71.
> >
> [163][182]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ
> -LUz2
> >
> UEoV=YA+siZ-=-5hJx=[183]ScTb...@mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut
> m_sou
> > rce=footer
> > > 72. mailto:[164][184]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> > > 73.
> >
> [165][185]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-4669
> -9A92
> >
> -[186]E009A2...@gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> it,
> > send an email to

> [166][187]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [167][188]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/Zjhv5yQ7vbPtGVMm%4
> 0adam

> > astor.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it,
> > send an email to

> [168][189]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> [169][190]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S7PnXV-HksOM
> Pck-1
> > GpqJSgyv1oXTocYySK971fBnX_YQ%[191]40mail.gmail.com.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > an email to [170][192]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

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> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> send an email to [366]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [367]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjlG7P7ixh7SPWMQ%40adam

> astor.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> an email to [368]libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [369]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S689kKcWWx4uoqVcNs4e
> fCQ3fbQdvMigu10WMSbvpEjOQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4783549/user-clip-neck-owls
> 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKH6EkSVazY
> 3. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 4. https://youtu.be/CaJt2r4-suo
> 5. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 6. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 9. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 11. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 12. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 13. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 14. mailto:li...@googlegroups.com
> 15. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 16. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 17. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 18. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 19. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 20. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 21. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 22. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 23. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 24. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 25. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 26. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 27. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 28. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 29. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 30. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 31. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 32. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af
> 33. http://40googlegroups.com/
> 34. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 35. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cEL

> 36. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 37. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 74. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 75. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 76. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_
> 77. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 78. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 79. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY

> 80. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 81. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 82. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9
> 83. http://40gmail.com/
> 84. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 85. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7CKP

> 86. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 87. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 88. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-9
> 89. http://40icloud.com/
> 90. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 91. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85SG

> 92. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 93. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 94. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ-L
> 95. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 96. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 97. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/9ED2DBA7-0C87-4669-9
> 98. http://40gmail.com/
> 99. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 100. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 101. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 102. mailto:li...@googlegroups.com
> 103. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 104. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 105. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 106. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 107. mailto:erik...@gmail.com

> 108. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 109. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 110. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com

> 111. mailto:pet...@potgieter.org
> 112. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 113. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 114. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 115. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 116. mailto:sjaar...@gmail.com
> 117. mailto:erik...@gmail.com
> 118. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 119. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 120. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/cd050e18-e663-4af3-8993
> 121. http://40googlegroups.com/
> 122. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 123. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPGj=cELYeFAbNzCX

> 124. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 125. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 200. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 201. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

> 262. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 263. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 264. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S51nP06wNx6na_m2Q6

> 265. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 266. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 267. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPTv1T-G7N23sY4O0J
> 268. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 269. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 270. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/41B42826-FDEE-40EE-9422-
> 271. http://40gmail.com/
> 272. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 273. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LnEPF0poLz7CKPPv8Esh%
> 274. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 275. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 276. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/3A0C8A52-9860-4035-915B-
> 277. http://40icloud.com/
> 278. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com
> 279. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAN6K2LmH5mWhzjR85SG4Yt4

> 280. http://40mail.gmail.com/
> 281. mailto:libsa+un...@googlegroups.com

> 282. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uOF8q4ReMnCQ-LUz2UEoV
> 283. http://40mail.gmail.com/
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> 286. http://40gmail.com/
> 287. https://youtu.be/H2ZaPLA6mJs?si=mmML2bE8jZx3KIBE

> 288. mailto:bas...@gmail.com
> 289. mailto:bas...@gmail.com

Trevor Watkins

unread,

May 7, 2024, 5:04:26 AMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

Trevor Watkins

bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

Administrative note to Petrus.
Your email browser appends the history of the entire conversation to each email, making it difficult to browse through conversations sequentially. Clicking on the heading of your post closes it, but you can no longer read your comment. Other email browsers put in a 3 dot token to represent earlier conversations to which you are replying. If you need context, you just click on this token.
Please see if there is a "brief" setting on your email browser which might solve this issue.

regards

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to libsa+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/ZjmrQwKLrBkmi4Y1%40adamastor.

Petrus Potgieter

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May 7, 2024, 5:08:54 AMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

Thank you, Trevor. I reply directly from e-mail and shall attempt to remember to do delete the previous text. Hopefully this is better.

Erik Peers

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May 7, 2024, 6:59:59 AMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

""What is the difference between immigration and invasion?"

Are you getting enough sleep ? Blink in morse code if the Nigerians have taken you hostage and you need help."

I am perplexed as to what you mean by your answer.

Reading between the lines these are possible interpretations, or maybe it is none of these. Please clarify

1) You don't know the difference

2) You do but won't say

3) You are withdrawing from the conversation

4) You wanted to say fuck you, but needed more words

5) You had a sarcasm attack and my email happened to be handy

Irrespective of what you meant, it is a sincere question. If there are no borders then technically an invasion is not possible. Or, is invasion defined by the intent of the invaders?

When does mass migration become invasion?

If Ukraine had not shot at Putin then would that have been mass migration?

People lov9ng on a particular location fear invasion. If they could understand the difference then there might be less opposition.

All worth talking about

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAMr06S4c0wOQzj7Uye3fqF2d6CGM5QvqSOSQ6as%3DtQB4fDzmvg%40mail.gmail.com.

Trevor Watkins

unread,

May 7, 2024, 7:58:18 AMMay 7

to LibertarianSA

Invasion usually involves guns and swords, immigration involves forms and bureaucrats.

Borders are merely footnotes to an invasion, but are fundamental to immigration.

Most libertarians believe that voting with your feet is a right. The number of aspiring immigrants is a measure of the health and success of the target country.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/libsa/CAE3T5uPChx1NXHC%2B4Ds%2B4ckmzzrgsLx6e%3DZgmFWu-8ROJX_6jA%40mail.gmail.com.

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 7, 2024, 7:11:51 PMMay 7

to li...@googlegroups.com

Yes, it did happen with time. People (especially Americans) are surprisingly good at imprecise units of measure... for example, I can tell you about this woman who coughed loudly in the queue at the store and she was about 5 micro-wave ovens behind me and I hope she didn't give me something, because Covid can travel like 6 arm-lengths through the air... I wished that a refrigerator sized hole would open up in the ground and swallow her up. For the majority of human existence, you don't need to specify the exact model and wattage of the microwave, the muscularity of the arm or the double-dooredness of the fridge. It's close enough.

Time. In England the trains used to run on a schedule which was based on the time shown on the clocks at the town the train stopped at, so departure would be based on the clock at the station because you could simply look at the clock and set your watch by it, if you had one... and often church bells and other clocks in the town would visually be aligned to the station clock... but arrival time was approximate, because the next station had no way of synchronizing to the clock at another station. So when the train arrived at a station, it might be a bit late or early because of the mismatch with the clock at the previous station... and then everyone would set their clocks to the time at the new station and depart on time according to that clock.

Later on it became possible to sync clocks along telegraph lines and later the phone systems allowed for a centralized clock to be called for the time (when we left RSA you could still dial 1026 from a landline and hear the time being read out to you). At some point the cellular network got connected to GPS receivers to synchronize the time across switching centers and base stations for accurate billing and in parallel banks started connecting to a central source of time over computer networks for interest rate calculations and transaction consistency... so clocks became more and more accurate and more and more synchronized over time.

Through all of this the accuracy went from hours to minutes to seconds to milliseconds to nanoseconds... and recently we got a brand new definition of the second itself. The vast majority of this was done by private persons and companies for their own reasons and gain, with a very small part being latched on by physicists and geeks for lab work. The fact that the formal definition of a second was proclamated by a public body is just the incidental tip of an otherwise totally private and spontaneous ice-berg beneath. They just rubber-stamped what the world was already doing all by itself. And why would a public body want to define anything people wouldn't find useful... and if people find it useful, why not let them do it themselves ?

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 7, 2024, 7:13:10 PMMay 7

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I think SLC is one of the most beautiful places on the planet. That mountain backdrop is incredible. I was not aware of the conversion after death thing... eek.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 7, 2024, 7:23:10 PMMay 7

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My response was flippant because your question seemed to be either;

a) really stupid / obvious or

b) setting a trap of some sort or

c) a sincere and legit question

I must be honest, (c) seemed less likely than the others... I figured (b).

It seems I was wrong - you meant it sincerely - and that is informative.

Supporting closed borders may stem from a simple misunderstanding of the difference between migration and invasion.

It is possible to have both migration and invasion without the existence of borders... so I am against borders entirely independent of those two things.

The difference between them does not seem particularly interesting to me - I find dictionaries quite boring. Subjectively. That's just me.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 7, 2024, 7:25:42 PMMay 7

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Oh, Trevor... I was not paying close attention - thank you. Yes... a swarm of bees can invade your home or your yard. A flock of sheep can migrate through "your" town. Neither of those would be called immigrants.

S.

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 8, 2024, 3:53:59 AMMay 8

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Thank you for the thoughtful response. The reason why I think it is unlikely that people will define the meter themselves is that it is very costly to coordinate. Much easier to have the government (which already has the guns and the tax people) do it. Now, the situation with the guns and the tax people is extremely dangerous, we all agree, but I think this is a rare example of a useful thing they do. Also, harmless – which is again rare and unusual. The US constition does contain, as one of the enumerated powers of the federal government

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures"

incidentally.

Op 07-05-2024 om 17:11:33 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

Stephen vJ

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May 8, 2024, 5:23:40 AMMay 8

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It's fascinating to see what some people think can be legislated, despite being completely outside the control of even the biggest guns... maybe they didn't know in 1792 that value is subjective and cannot be regulated. Setting the standard of weights and measures is at least in the realm of possibility, but faces similar challenges... unless the new measure is somehow hugely beneficial and demonstrably superior to the old one (surprisingly few really are), they typically have to be forced down people's throats. Often violently. This is not a good thing, even if the new measure or weight is. Britain yanked imperial currency from its citizens in 1971 at enormous cost and it almost cost the ruling party their position in charge. Interestingly, the change was triggered in part by South Africa... here is one readable summary; https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Decimalisation-in-Britain/

The US have historically been less hard-handed with their citizens in this particular area and they seem to be doing (or at least have until recently done) just fine, despite the more complicated and less accurate imperial system. They even managed to land people on the moon, despite having to add two conversions steps to every calculation. Canada went for something in-between... they made metric the legal standard and they do enforce the use of metric, but they did not outlaw the use of imperial... the result is weird. Here is one example... the law says you have to show fresh produce and meat prices in metric. Can you spot the compliance in this typical flyer ?

One thing I have come to realize since moving here is that some measurements are more useful than others. Usefulness most often is defined by how used to it other people are, so most of the time whatever measure is older, is also more useful, even if it is less accurate or more cumbersome, at least it is more widely known and recognized. The social aspect seems to be equally or more important than the scientific aspect.

If the USA does switch to metric, it will either be a painful process of excessive government use of force, or it will happen very gradually and not all at once, starting with the most useful and ending with the least. For most useful, my money is on paper sizes. This in my opinion is where Canada and the US can gain the biggest improvement by switching. Living in a country with A4 paper, you have no idea what a phenomenal pain in the ass imperial paper sizes are. Graphic design and printing software development are a nightmare in North America. They are faced with resizing challenges which simply do not exist in the rest of the world. The pain caused by imperial paper sizes is one of the great atrocities of the modern world.

Metric Paper

youtu.be

There are not many things I miss about South Africa... A4 paper is one. I don't think it needs to be coordinated. You just need a few people to start using it, and if the improvement is tangible, the rest will follow. American scientists are already starting to switch to meters and liters in order to collaborate internationally or to use imported products, resulting in some schools teaching it as an option in science classes. It's not huge yet, but I've noticed several instances. It is growing. All by itself.

Stephen.

On May 8, 2024, at 01:53, Petrus Potgieter <pet...@potgieter.org> wrote:

Thank you for the thoughtful response. The reason why I think it is unlikely that people will define the meter themselves is that it is very costly to coordinate. Much easier to have the government (which already has the guns and the tax people) do it. Now, the situation with the guns and the tax people is extremely dangerous, we all agree, but I think this is a rare example of a useful thing they do. Also, harmless – which is again rare and unusual. The US constition does contain, as one of the enumerated powers of the federal government

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Trevor Watkins

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May 8, 2024, 7:44:19 AMMay 8

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The invisible hand of the market produces thousands of "standards" spontaneously. The engineers handbook is about 4 inches thick.

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Colin Phillips

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May 8, 2024, 9:24:12 AMMay 8

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ooh can i recommend the book 'Seeing like a state'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

One of the examples goes into how measurement standards were created to make taxation easier.

For example, if your tax is "7 sacks of grain per villager" then it is really helpful to have a 'standard sack' as well as a standard methodology for how a sack is to be filled, etc.

Many ordinary things we take for granted, like 'everyone has a surname' started off because making things standardised made it easier for the state to monitor and control your ancestors, and we got used to it. Like training a wolf to become a dog - it takes a few generations...

Colin

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Trevor Watkins

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May 8, 2024, 9:46:38 AMMay 8

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Enjoyed the reference. The importance of Chesterton's fence springs to mind.

Trevor Watkins

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 8, 2024, 12:27:23 PMMay 8

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Definitely but those standards are accepted by... the community that accepts them, which can be quite large, and not by everyone.

I am also prepared to entertain the idea that it is absolutely OK to have different interpretations of what a kilogram is in, say, the province of Gauteng. I do think however that if you wanted "kilogram" to mean the same thing everywhere then the easiest (and cheapest) way to achieve that is to have the government define it. This might actually be efficient. Needless to say, I do not propose that the government should force people to use the kilogram rather than other measures – that would be far too much for me. If they use other measures, I just think they should have a different name for it.

Op 08-05-2024 om 10:17:40 +0200 skryf Trevor Watkins bas...@gmail.com:

Petrus Potgieter

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May 8, 2024, 12:31:22 PMMay 8

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I agree and I even think that arithmetic was invented always and everywhere with the purpose of calculating taxes. That does not make mathematics (or standard units) bad. Touched by sin, sure.

Op 08-05-2024 om 15:23:55 +0200 skryf Colin Phillips noid...@gmail.com:

> ooh can i recommend the book 'Seeing like a state'?

> [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

Petrus Potgieter

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May 8, 2024, 3:43:55 PMMay 8

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I love the Canadian lb/kg supermarket ad! Not would I, for a moment, propose that state should dictate whether people should use kg or lb or whatever. I am only saying that the state should fix the 1 kg volume of water (somebody has to) and the lb/kg exchange rate so that we all talk about the same thing.

In a similar vein, I am quite comfortable with the bureaucracy around Aviation English

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_English

and the definitive directive

https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2003/RAAC8/RAAC8IP18.pdf

is without doubt a government diktat. Does anybody here want to let the planes keep crashing until such time as a beautiful spontaneous consensus emerges through voluntary action? Since I am not very humanitarian (which I see as not having a strong species prejudice), I won't judge. ;-)

Op 08-05-2024 om 03:23:11 -0600 skryf Stephen vJ sjaar...@gmail.com:
>

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 8, 2024, 7:31:25 PMMay 8

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I found the plastic bank issued coin bag (aka "bankie") to be a universally accepted and pretty consistent measure in Gauteng.

S.

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Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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May 8, 2024, 7:46:16 PMMay 8

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Ok, now this is where I'm willing to admit to being a little bit of a quasi-hypocrite... I may be a Libertarian of the anarchic leaning persuasion, but I also have a well used copy of Publication 102, International Code of Signals right here on my desk. Much of that document was compiled and written for the government by private individuals and I firmly believe that a free market would have come up with something similar or even better all by itself... but now that it exists, I'm very happy to use it.

The trick, just like looking at highways built in the 1970's, is to not confuse those great works with positive achievement. Those things came about at a cost in terms of alternatives which are entirely invisible. We can point at the highways and say how good they were, but it's impossible to point at the many schools, hospitals, shops and houses that may have existed had the money not been spent on highways. So we tend to have a bias towards that which actually exists and against that which could have existed.

Sometimes we argue, could you imagine what highways we could have had, had they been privately built.... but often the market would simply not do that, because other things (schools, hospitals, houses, shebeens, casinos, smoking sections, etc.) serve a much more valuable purpose. Any thing the government creates needs to be seen in the light of the very many possible things that could have been but are not, rather than in the light of what is vs. how the free market would have done that specific and particular thing.

Maybe giving up our beloved communications standards would have resulted not in privately developed ones, but rather in a cure for cancer or a hotel casino on the moon or flying cars. Who knows where the market would have applied that value if not forcibly appropriated by the government ?

S.

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Petrus Potgieter

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May 9, 2024, 1:30:50 AMMay 9

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Agreed. The nicest and shiniest airports are usually in slightly corrupt and/or authoritarian countries, for example.

Op 08-05-2024 om 17:46:02 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

Petrus Potgieter

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May 9, 2024, 1:32:35 AMMay 9

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I cannot say the same for the poured 500 ml beer. Perhaps because it is more difficult to return a draught beer and ask for another one. There is something to be said for dry goods in this respect.

Op 08-05-2024 om 17:31:10 -0600 skryf Stephen van Jaarsveldt sjaar...@gmail.com:

Gabri Rigotti

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May 10, 2024, 7:37:18 AMMay 10

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In a genuine libertarian state there would be no state borders, only cadastral boundaries i.e. private property boundaries as there would be no public property.

Migrants aka travellers to be more generic would have the right of passage as paying clients of a route, be it by road, rail, sea or air.

All land based routes would be private, and there would probably be some development of private volumes of sea and air travel too.

Travellers would either pay for the right of passage or if there is no fee then they probably would request permission or comply with the ToS (terms of service) e.g. no urinating or defecating on the route only in the available bathrooms.

Using a route without paying or without permission would be trespass and the route owners would be able to eject/reject the trespassers.

Similarly the route owners would be able to eject/reject travellers that did not observe the ToS.

Hypothetically some entrepreneurs might build routes into selected areas for the specific purpose of supplying labour. They would either levy a nominal fee or provide permission or demand observance of ToS.

Wherever the travellers arrive, they would have to pay board and lodging or be hosted by friends or relatives or even organisations that may be offering charitable options.

Travellers however may not trespass just because they happen to have arrived.

Labour selling entrepreneurs could choose to pay for economic migrants and provide board and lodging according to some ToS or other (Terms of Service). For example, x% of the paycheck for y years or whatever?

It would be in the interest of the labour selling entrepreneurs to ensure that their stock (economic migrants) attract the best possible returns on their investments.

In a genuine libertarian state there would be no electoral voting on the basis that whoever garners an electoral “democratic” win can impose some form of violence on others e.g. taxes, the obligation of using preferred pronouns, the prohibition of single sex toilets, conscription for war, etcetera.

In a libertarian state there would be no moral justification for imposing national borders. However the geography of adjacent cadastral properties could define an outer ring of property boundaries that could be seen as a “border”.

In a libertarian state the rights of private property owners would organically resolve the issues of open borders that occur in non libertarian states.

Whilst not an electoral democracy, a genuine libertarian state is however the purest of democracy via the free market mechanism which is the default and exclusive manifestation of a genuine libertarian state.

If a genuine free market exists then the society in which it manifests is and can only be libertarian or the same rose by any other name.

The corollary is that if a genuine libertarian society exists then its economic manifestation is and can only be the free market or the same rose by any other name.

If this rose of an economic system is called “Capitalism” then it is merely an instance of Capitalism that coincides with the free market.

Mostly, however, Capitalism is not the free market but a perversion of the free market, to a greater or lesser degree.

When in real world terms the difference is as insignificant as the vanishing “little h” of calculus, that it is as close as “damnit”, then in practice that instance of Capitalism can be considered a real world free market.

In practice Hong Kong, where the British offered sanctuary to those fleeing Mao, is one of the few instances of Capitalism that almost became a free market.

Singapore however is just fascist Capitalism.

Mainland China, now, thanks to Kissinger and his cohorts, is state Capitalism enabled into a superpower by Western capitalists seeking effectively slave labour.

Most of the Capitalism everywhere around the world ranges between these two forms of coercive states, totalitarian communism utilising markets for power to totalitarian fascism utilising markets for power.

The first real world instance of Capitalism = Free Market might emerge in Argentina, but that is still far away.

Biden’s open borders are not in alignment with libertarianism because the goal of the Democratic Party of the USA is to recruit electoral voters that will keep it in power as a coercive government initiating the use of force (aka violence) against individuals.

In the USA, voter verification is loose, whereas, say in South Africa one can only vote with your ID, not a passport nor a drivers licence nor a municipal bill, only the ID.

Losing my ID repeatedly I managed to vote only once in the SA elections due to my italic temperament that is not patience friendly and thus makes it impossible for me to wait in queues for replacements.

In Italy one can vote with any documento that identifies you, passport or ID or drivers licence.

But you also need a tessera that is obtainable from the local municipality. I got mine in the last fifteen minutes before voting closed. It took me about five minutes in all to get it, their systems are so efficient as Italians detest government and get rid of an administration almost every year!

Compared to South Africa or Italy or any other EU nation, the USA is a farcical example of electoral democracy.

But more relevant to my above aside, Biden's open borders are not aligned with libertarianism, only with the future harvesting of electoral voters that will send the policeman to your front door and lock you up for not calling someone by their preferred pronoun.

Or to demand from say the American offspring of Sicilians that they pay for slave reparations because they are "white".

Sicilians who have developed one of the most exquisite cuisines in the world and are among the most warm hearted people in the world are probably the most diverse people in the world DNA wise.

They were conquered, raped, enslaved by human predators for millennia, lastly by the Islamic empires who seem to get a free pass for their slaughter and slavery to this very day.

Historical studies indicate that Islam enslaved more people as a percentage of the world population during its history of slavery than the West did in its criminality of slavery for the Americas.

Sicilians certainly are owed reparations (especially by Islam) and their American offspring should not be paying any reparations for slavery to anyone.

That is Biden's America, as far removed from libertarianism as the furthest edge of the most distant parallel universe, past, present or future, from our parallel one …

The open borders of Biden are just the Eyes of Kaa, Rudyard Kipling's mesmerising snake … and libertarians should not fall for such deceit … yet some do, gob smackingly so.

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Trevor Watkins

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May 10, 2024, 8:36:59 AMMay 10

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An excellent summary of our 100 piece conversation on borders - thank you for the effort Gabri.

Trevor Watkins

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Gabri Rigotti

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May 10, 2024, 9:02:42 AMMay 10

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😊👍👍👍👌

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