Fwd: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do
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Wong Leo
Oct 6, 2010, 8:38:19 AM10/6/10
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If anyone of is interested in the Publishing OER books or keep your heads up in this field, this is such a great conversation you canot miss out .
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Alex P.Real <alex....@googlemail.com>
Date: 2010/10/6
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do
From: Alex P.Real <alex....@googlemail.com>
Date: 2010/10/6
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do
To: wikied...@googlegroups.com
Dear Joyce,
I understand you feeling upset, but I don't think Stephen doubted your professional capacity, actually he pointed out several alternatives (such as consulting) to traditional publishing in which your competence might be more fruitful & profitable with less effort on your side, in terms of acquiring further skills alien to your field of expertise . I think he might be referring to the trend of plunging into textbook production, expensive for students and with little benefit (if any) for authors when there are other options. As a matter of fact I used to work for Pearson (not publishing), and though I agree they're in their right of making profit and that their CSR is huge, they're certainly not lambs. BTW, congrats on your book! Despite philosophical disagreement it is always difficult to nurture one!
Cheers,
Alex
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Dear Joyce,
I understand you feeling upset, but I don't think Stephen doubted your professional capacity, actually he pointed out several alternatives (such as consulting) to traditional publishing in which your competence might be more fruitful & profitable with less effort on your side, in terms of acquiring further skills alien to your field of expertise . I think he might be referring to the trend of plunging into textbook production, expensive for students and with little benefit (if any) for authors when there are other options. As a matter of fact I used to work for Pearson (not publishing), and though I agree they're in their right of making profit and that their CSR is huge, they're certainly not lambs. BTW, congrats on your book! Despite philosophical disagreement it is always difficult to nurture one!
Cheers,
Alex
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:09 PM, <Joyce.M...@esc.edu> wrote:
I feel hurt and angered by your comments. First of all as Wayne has said in a later reply I am very experienced and a bit well-known in my field of community organizing...that does not mean I am an expert in publishing and distributing a comprehensive textbook although I believe my years of experience should be shared with others and my students agree! Secondly, I am a very busy professor at a major university. I do not have time to search the internet and cull through what might or might not be helpful assistance. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations with the internet and indeed the OER movement (except for wikieducator) is the time needed to separate effective sites and people from ineffective. My publisher/editor have offered me assistance that is very timely, easy to fit into my schedule and very very helpful. At this stage of my professional life, I value my time above all else...maybe a few years from now in retirement I would be able to use the methods you suggest. I am interested in Wayne's suggestion that open licenses allow publishers to use materials in formal books and also allow the basic material to be available to anyone...the publisher adds the bells and whistles in that model. I agree that some publishers have been greedy, but many employ very dedicated and helpful individuals. Pearson, for instance, employs at least 5,000 people worldwide and their economic welfare should be considered. These are complicated issues that bear study...but an e-mail that implies that a colleague is not competent is not a helpful way to encourage dialogue.
-----wikied...@googlegroups.com wrote: -----To: wikied...@googlegroups.com
From: Stephen Downes
Sent by: wikied...@googlegroups.comDate: 10/04/2010 09:44PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do
What's interesting is that the publisher has sold a product to you, but has you convinced that someone else should pay for it. It becomes a dilemma because you can't think of a way to get these other to pay for something you received for free without subscribing to the whole model of proprietary publishing.
But reanalyze...
-- you say you could not have gotten these services for free, but is this true? The internet is probably the greatest place to test your ideas and get comments on multiple drafts of materials - all for free. You'll find friends on the internet too, just like your publisher pretended to be. If you really don't begrudge them being paid for their work, pay them. Don't assume it's some reader's responsibility to pay for your professional support services.
-- it's not clear in any case that you should be writing a book on your own if you doin't have the skills to do it -- you're just abetting the publisher's corporate agenda, and no doubt passing along a little of their marketing message disguised as your ideas but contributed by their editorial input -- maybe it would have been better to gain experience by contributing to a collaborative project where the necessary skills are present -- like, say, Wikieducator
-- finally, there are many ways autghors and publishers can earn from the publication of open access work - and you can also earn by offering other services, such as speaking, consulting, mentoring, and other support, which are all supported by your writing
-- Stephen
On 10-10-04 5:27 PM, Joyce.M...@esc.edu wrote:Hi Wayne: I know I am late in inquiring about this, but I am a little confused about how the publisher will gain from offering this book under a free license. The reason I am asking is that I am under contract to write a comprehensive community organizing textbook for Pearson/Allyn and Bacon a very large US publisher. My editor has offered me her time and wonderful resources that I could not possibly have had were I doing this project on my own and I don't begrudge them their fair share of any proceeds, but I would like my work to be readily available especially in developing countries, so I am confused about how I might meet my publisher's needs to make a reasonable return on all they have invested in the book and in me as a writer while still being fair to indigent readers. I hope this question makes sense. Joyce McKnight SUNY/Empire State College, Member of the OER Foundation.
-----wikied...@googlegroups.com wrote: -------To: wikied...@googlegroups.com
From: Wayne Mackintosh
Sent by: wikied...@googlegroups.com
Date: 09/14/2010 01:03AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEducator] An Ethical Dilemma -- Feeling sad :-)- When publishers don't do what they say they intend to do
Hi Gene,
Thanks for the note -- with every mistake (and I believe the publishers have made an honest mistake) there is a learning experience.
Together we can make the world a better place -- and the open web and free content licensing can help. There is a place for everyone in the sun -- even publishers who can earn a living through publishing free content.
The embarrassing point is that my name is now published under a non-commercial license :-(. However -- let's turn an honest mistake into a success for all involved. I have just received an email from the publisher requesting that we connect for a skype conversation later this evening. I will suggest that they drop the NC restriction and release the work under a CC-BY-SA license.
That would be a smart move for them imho --- the "free" advertising resulting from a move like that would push and promote sales.
We'll see what happens.
Cheers
Wayne
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:55 PM, gene aronin <gene...@gmail.com> wrote:
Wayne,
This was an exceptional commentary of your dilemma, because it 1)demonstrated what "creative commons" was all about, and 2) demonstrated, through your honesty and forthrightness the importance of this idea. Demonstrate by example. Good for you, Wayne.
Gene--
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:28 PM, aprasad <aple...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Wayne,I can imagine how humiliating the situation to you. Hope the publishers will come out with an erratum.On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wayne Mackintosh <mackinto...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Never a dull moment in the free culture world. Ordinarily -- I would not post public notifications around potential misunderstandings or oversights by a publisher. However, I find myself facing an ethical dilemma. Particularly since today I'm been commenting considerably on my personal ethics and views associated with the non-commercial restriction on our national New Zealand MLE list.
I was recently invited to write the forward for a new publication -- a book of tweets on open text books. Great idea, very cool and appropriate for our times. In response to the invite, my very first question was was:
"More than happy to provide a "tweet" -- what license will you be publishing the book under?"
Response:
"We will be doing this under Creative Commons - Attribution - Share Alike license- http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
That is the current plan. Any interest in co-authoring?"
My response:
"I always check that anything I write is published under a free cultural works approved license :-) I would love to co-author"
So I do my bit, read the text, write a short forward and contribute a tweet. I now see that the book has been published under a CC-BY-NC-SA license -- which is very unfortunate, because I think its a great text and it seems that there has been an oversight in attributing my contributions under a license which meets the free cultural works definition which was a condition of my contribution. (See: http://www.happyabout.com/thinkaha/opentextbooktweet01.php). I've asked the publishes to print and distribute an erratum indicating that my personal contributions are licensed under CC-BY-SA on the basis of our original agreement. I'm confident that they will do the right thing.
When I submitted my tweet, I wrote:
"This is licensed under CC-BY which will enable a derivative under CC-BY-SA." I did this work during official time, and my employers IP policy requires that I release my work under a default CC-BY license."
If there were any communications from the publisher in the interim about changing the license -- I missed these ;-(. Moreover, for the record, I would not have agreed to having anything I write published under an NC license.
It's ironic that while the book carries a NC restriction -- the international public can purchase the texts, hard copy or ebook for a listed price of $19.95 or $14,95 and see that currently some discount applies.
Anway -- this is a public announcement that my forward is licensed under a CC-BY-SA license and my tweet - No 31 is openly licensed under a free cultural works approved license (CC-BY) in this case. The publisher was free to add an NC restriction on the tweet - -but has omitted to attribute the source :-(. For the record, both versions of the texts I submitted are licensed under a CC-BY license. You are free to take these texts, reuse them, adapt them, modify them and if you like sell them :-)
Cheers
Wayne
--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director OER Foundation
Director, International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Founder and elected Community Council Member, Wikieducator
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
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Warm regards
Anil --
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With Best Wishes for an Even Better Day
Gene-loeb
Gene-loeb Aronin, Ph.D.
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Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director OER Foundation
Director, International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Founder and elected Community Council Member, Wikieducator
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
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Leo Wong
Co-director of HELP in China
--------------------------------------
http://helpsuzhou.blogbus.com/ HELP
Co-director of HELP in China
--------------------------------------
http://helpsuzhou.blogbus.com/ HELP
There is something very special and powerful about engaging directly with the real teacher and real Kids
--
Leo Wong
Co-director of HELP in China
--------------------------------------
http://helpsuzhou.blogbus.com/ HELP
Co-director of HELP in China
--------------------------------------
http://helpsuzhou.blogbus.com/ HELP
There is something very special and powerful about engaging directly with the real teacher and real Kids
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