Sampled Piano Face Off

[RIchard Kram]

OK. So we're all talking about sampled instruments and as Theremin players we need accompaniments because, well, that theremin sounds like crap by itself for any extended period of time (sorry). And while I’m not the world’s biggest fan of theremin and piano, that’s what’s most available and easiest to get your hands on and hey I happen to play piano (though I ain’t no Rubenstein) so it works out ok.  I typically just use the piano sound of my Kurzweil keyboard, but perhaps I want to start using some more realistic samples for some accompaniments. I’ve spent a small fortune on sampled pianos and some of them are quite realistic (and the better you can play, the more realistic they will sound of course).

So I thought it would be fun to have a little sampled piano face-off. I took a MIDI file (of a real person playing – not me unfortunately – Chopin Etude Op.10 #5). I ran it through five of my sampled pianos – all well respected products. Alicia’s Keys (Kontakt Instrument – a Yamaha), VSL Imperial (Bosendorfer 290), my newest addition - Garritan CFX (Yamaha CFX), East West Quantum Leap Pianos (another Bosendorfer 290) and Ivory2 (yet another Bosendorfer 290). So each has it's own VSL plugin that I loaded up in Cubase. I tried to use minimal reverb for each product (but each will have some reverb due to the space it was recorded in). I then ran them all through East West Quantum Leap Spaces convolution reverb using the LA Piano Hall impulse patch. Finally I normalized all of them to -2dB so you don’t hear one of them overpowering the others – in truth they all default to different volumes - but you’ll always mix them in as you see fit anyway. For the most part they all use close mic position with a bit of ambient thrown in when it is available. You are always fiddling with mic positions on any sampled product to get the best sound you are looking for – but I didn’t really fiddle too much here – tried to match them as best I could. Of course there will be differences between Bosendorfer and Yamahas - but they are all big pianos. (I once played a Bosendorfer in college long ago and the deep bass of that thing knocked me on my butt - I'll never, ever forget that sound - no sample can do that). 

Now this is a pretty fast piece so you can get a feel for response and overall sound. I probably have to do up a slow piece to get a feel for best expressive nuance – but I think you can hear substantial differences here in that regard. The problem is that once you listen to any patch for a while you kind of get sucked into that sound.

To help you out. Each version begins at:

1)     0 Seconds, 2) 1’41”, 3) 3’.23”, 4) 5’5” and 5) 6’46”

I ain’t telling yet which is which (they are not in the order listed above). You can make up your own minds and rate them 1 to 5 if you like.

Have fun. I’ll venture a few of you are going to say "some of them sound like a piano to me".

https://soundcloud.com/rk53-1/piano-comparison

[Peter Pringle]

I just listened to the samples you posted to soundcloud and I think they all sound GREAT. Some of them are more “crisp” and “dryer” than others, but I wasn’t sure if that had to do with the original instrument sample or some other part of the FX chain. My personal favorite was #2, which seemed to have more of a concert hall feeling to it. 

Did you know that the late Bob Moog used to work for Kurzweil and was one of the developers of its MIDI keyboard technology?

Since you don’t particularly like the piano/theremin combination, what single instrument (or sound) do you feel best complements the theremin? 

[RIchard Kram]

Peter - very interesting on #2. I'll post the list of what is what in a few days. I agree that non of these pianos is bad. Actually all of these can be made to sound better by tweaking EQ, changing mic positions for the piece at hand, changing the velocity map which I just set to the default linear setting for all of these (that can bring out certain areas of the keyboard that may sound weaker). I didn't try and match reverbs exactly. Some of the pianos have less or more default reverb even with no reverb on because the samples were recorded in wetter or drier spaces. Some of these you have to choose a reverb setting vs. setting to dry and using your own. I also didn't try and add a lot of pedal noise, room noise, ambience, etc - all kinds of things that these instruments have to try and better emulate the real thing.

I just think the percussiveness of the piano can at times take a bit away from some thermein sounds (at least the more sine-like sounds I get from my Etherwave). I prefer strings or pads (or at least add that to the piano mix) that better balance the sound (course I can't get the gutsy sound that you can from your instruments that can likely hold up better to anything). Course that's just me.

Didn't know about Bob Moog and Kurzweil. I love their keyboards and synths. 

[John Armstrong]

Hello Levren,

I've not posted in a while, but thought I'd post this video of recent
performance, as part of Earth vs. E-Town. We had a rather momentous
election that same night :

https://youtu.be/l8AcA9fTz60

The show was a cool international mash-up of AV files contributed by
artists from various countries and accompanied by live, local musicians
in a greasy little bar in downtown Edmonton, AB Canada.

Here's a link to the full hour of performances if you're interest into
what leaks out of of the newly democratic / once Texas of the North
state of Albertastan :

https://youtu.be/dpt4j8ukKco

Cheers,

John

[Peter Pringle]

It’s about time Albertans kicked the Tories out of office! Your new premier is pretty, smart, charismatic and should do well….let’s HOPE.

Did a concert once in Fort McMurray, entirely of the songs of the late British playwright Sir Noel Coward - just yers trooly and a piano on stage for an hour and a half??? Playing Noel Coward???? IN FORT MCMURRAY IN MID-WINTER???  I wasn’t looking forward to it, but I was told by the promoters that I would be quite surprised. 

That was an understatement!

The concert was sold out and the audience was one of the most sophisticated I have ever encountered in North America for the type of thing I was doing. What I didn’t know was that the tar sands had attracted a large group of super-salaried elite intellectuals from Great Britain all of whom were PhD specialists dedicated to the development of a technology for extracting oil from the frozen muck of the tundra.

Why, there’s more oil in that dirt than there is in all of Sodomy Arabia!  😃

[RIchard Kram]

So if you are interested the order for the sampled pianos is:

1. Quantum Leap Pianos - Bosendorfer

2. Garritan CFX (Yamaha)

3. Vienna Symphonic Library Imperial Grand (Bosendorfer)

4. Ivory2 - Bosendorfer2

5. Alicia's Keys Yamaha

Interesting that Peter liked the new CFX the best. Me too. What you can't hear here is how they feel when you play them. CFX to me definitely has the most expressive response.

Peter - Waiting for that Omnisphere2 to come and I'll create some examples. You can create your own wavetables now (from .WAV files). I'm interested to see what it will sound like if I create a set of sampled theremin wavetables to use in various ways.

Rich

[Rob Schwimmer]

Hi, Richard--

I'm back on the planet for a little. Can you tell me the link again for the sampled piano wonderland?

Thanks,
Rob

Why, there’s more oil in that dirt than there is in all of Sodomy Arabia!  \uD83D\uDE03

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[Rob Schwimmer]

Ok, listened

They all sound good... I'm tending towards #2 but in all fairness I've never much gone for Bosendorfers... Sent an afternoon at the Bosendorfer Salle in Vienna and played a zillion of them and found them lacking red blood cells for my taste. But I played a great one not so long ago... You never know

I think you should hear the Ivory II American Grand and Italian Grand.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: RIchard Kram <rkr...@verizon.net>
To: levnet <lev...@googlegroups.com>

[Peter Pringle]

Schwim, have you ever tried a Fazioli? 

I have only heard recordings of them but from what I have heard they are SPECTACULAR. 

Not surprisingly, you and I both chose #2 from the lineup of samples above.

[Rob Schwimmer]

Hey, Peter--

Yeah, I've played Fazioli's many times and the good one's are top tier. I've played some that weren't but the best are certainly like driving a Lamborghini.

The first time I used one for a solo concert the action was a lot different from my Steinway; I was beating myself senseless and just getting myself tired. The guy at the store said, "Just start out playing as light as you can and let it take you to how hard you should go..." Great advice. All subsequent meetings have been pretty great.

I also love some Blüthner pianos...

[RIchard Kram]

Interesting that you both chose #2 which is the new Garritan Yamaha CFX. The one I thought was the best too.

I don't normally think of Garritan as a top end sample library - but they seem to have done a really good job on this one.

I've never tried the new Ivory 2 pianos.

Rich

[Rob Schwimmer]

This was a mighty fine sounding piano in person... Here's 3 videos from my very first solo concert on a Fazioli:

Buddy, Can You Spare a Dime? (Note: 3:20 is a response you can barely hear...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93asBQDLXN0

(Fazioli) Exploration & All The Things You Are
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZqDtbAQ9c

Quicksilver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amXMRNIedx0

-----Original Message-----
From: RIchard Kram <rkr...@verizon.net>

[Rob Schwimmer]

To a cellphone

(Note: 3:20 is a response you can barely hear...)

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Rob Schwimmer' via LevNet <lev...@googlegroups.com>
To: levnet <lev...@googlegroups.com>

[Amethyste]

MY friend and recording artist Michele McLaughlin records on a Faz. Sound absolutely divine...

http://michelemclaughlin.com/

[David Curtis]

I am curious to know what the ivory/plastic ticklers in the audience think of these recently released sampled piano libraries:

The Hammersmith [Steinway Concert Grand Model D]

from Sonic Couture

http://www.soniccouture.com/en/products/26-percussion/g49-the-hammersmith/

Alan Parsons Imperial Grand [Bösendorfer Model 290]

from IK Multimedia

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/st3alanparsonsgrand/

Both companies employed Mark Knopfler's British Grove Studios in London.

[Rob Schwimmer]

I think I missed this e-mail... Haven't heard either yet. You?

The Ivory American Concert D is very good

-----Original Message-----
From: David Curtis <theseimmo...@gmail.com>
To: levnet <lev...@googlegroups.com>

[Peter Pringle]

I listened to the two samples above (The Hammersmith from Sonic Couture & the Bosendorfer from Multimedia) and I definitely prefer the Bosendorfer. The problem is that with a sampled sound transferred to a YT mp4 format there are so many variables that it is impossible to say anything other than I LIKE or I DON’T LIKE.

The Hammersmith sounded a bit shallow and tinny to my ears.

Then there’s the question of the keyboard mastery of the pianist who is demonstrating the samples, and the qualities of the instrument being used to trigger the sounds in the first place. 

Love the way the narrator pronounces Bosendorfer (booze in door 4). 

The engineering process is crucial to any recorded or live broadcast performance. I have people asking me all the time how I mike my theremins, and while I am flattered that they think enough of a recording to ask the question, they are often dismayed to learn that the equipment they would need to do what I do - such as it is - would cost them many times more than their theremin. 

If you want reasonably professional results, there is no cheap & easy way to get them. Most thereminists just want to “plug in and play” and they do not have the time, energy, resources or even the motivation to learn the engineering basics that are, IMNSHFO, basic for any electronic musician.

The Ivory American Concert D (from Synthogy) that Schwim mentioned above sounds GREAT. Liked it much better than Sonic Couture’s Hammersmith.

[lpka...@lpkaster.com]

"The engineering process is crucial to any recorded or live broadcast performance. I have people asking me all the time how I mike my theremins, and while I am flattered that they think enough of a recording to ask the question, they are often dismayed to learn that the equipment they would need to do what I do - such as it is - would cost them many times more than their theremin."

You're so spoiled.....   ; ) LPK From:"Peter Pringle" <peterp...@cgocable.ca> Date:Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:44

Subject:Re: [levnet] Re: Sampled Piano Face Off

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[David Curtis]

For those who care about such things ... 2 new sampled acoustic pianos for SampleTank 3 users.

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/st3brandenburgpiano/

- Brandenburg Piano recreates a particularly well-kept 1958 Bechstein 6’8” ...

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/st3artdecopiano/

- Art Deco Piano is a faithful recreation of a classic 1930’s Blüthner® PH Grand Piano.

The Blüthner instrument with its stylized insect wing lid is something to behold. 

[RIchard Kram]

By the way, there are also a couple of Prepared Piano sample libraries that are very interesting out there, particularly the Vienna Symphonic Library prepared piano (Bösendorfer), which has a set of different preparations - foil, erasers, clothes pins, screws, etc with different articulations as well:

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Special_Keyboards/Prepared_Piano#!Product_Info

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Special_Keyboards/Prepared_Piano#!Photos

I wrote a test piece for it using most of the sounds. At times it sounds absolutely nothing like a piano. You can get some massive sounds and some very ethereal sounds out of it as well. A ton of interesting things you could do with it maybe in conjunction with the Haken. Rob may be interested in it as it could a a nice different number during his performances that uses one more unusual thing.

https://soundcloud.com/rk53-1/etude-brute

My 1/2 Continuum (with CV module so I can connect it to my modular synth) should be here soon. I'm excited!

Rich