docs - install page - bazaar vs release vs nightly
HansBKK
the bugtracker with back and forth
https://bugs.launchpad.net/leo-editor/+bug/896809?comments=all
For what it's worth, i.e. just my 2¢:
The fact of the matter is that Leo is actually very easy to install
and very stable to run, but anyone who's used done any amount of
checking out FOSS projects knows that is often not the case. For
people hearing about Leo and wanting to check it out, the early stages
of the documentation and particularly the installation process itself
is a critical part of their first impression, particularly for non-
programmers (which I am) and non-technical people (which I'm not).
Currently that page puts bazaar right up front, and perhaps I'm braver
than most, but since I'd read the "should we end the practice of
issuing releases" thread beforehand, I jumped in, with the results as
per the bugtracker thread above, and testing still ongoing.
I would suggest that right up at the top of that page be a statement
somewhat along these lines:
----
The core Leo code is always being improved and developed, using a
rigorous unit-testing blah-blah that ensures that the daily commits
are as bug-free as possible. In fact (insert #% or qualifier) of the
time, downloading the most recent "nightly snapshot" of the
development code from our version control system Bazaar (link to here
http://www.greygreen.org/leo/) is going to give you code that is just
as stable and much more up-to-date than the most recent "release"
available here (link to http://sourceforge.net/projects/leo/files/OldFiles/),
which most Leonistas would at this point consider already outdated. If
you are just checking Leo out, feel free to use the latter release
download if it makes you feel more secure, but once you've decided to
work with Leo on a regular basis, we highly recommend regularly
keeping your installation up to date with the most recent snapshot.
----
Other notes:
Since for Linux and Windows the initial hurdle for many is getting the
prerequisites going, I would make that part OS-specific, but then have
the "within-Python" stuff marked platform-independent, leaving only
the more problematic Mac discussion as a completely separate section -
in fact I'd suggest putting a link to a completely separate page
somewhere near the top, to leave the main page with a more positive
overall tone.
Only after you've addressed the needs of "mere users" should there be
a section, or again a link to a separate page for programmers who may
be interested in helping to develop Leo, and make it clear that Bazaar
is the way to go for them (and currently only them), and only then add
a note about Bazaar's current problems with memory usage and any Leo-
specific suggestions and workarounds, again clearly targeted to that
particular audience.
Other relevant discussions:
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor/browse_thread/thread/fc83705d96ea6157
https://bugs.launchpad.net/leo-editor/+bug/242060/comments/4
HansBKK
OK, I've downloaded the latest nightly snapshot, and before
overwriting did a diff against what I've been using, I believe a bzr
export direct from LP about five days ago.
The export contains a lot of .pyc files parallel to the .py's in core
and plugins that are missing in the nightly. I have no idea whether
this is in fact a problem or just kruft, but thought it worth
mentioning here.
Terry Brown
HansBKK <han...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The export contains a lot of .pyc files parallel to the .py's in core
> and plugins that are missing in the nightly. I have no idea whether
> this is in fact a problem or just kruft, but thought it worth
> mentioning here.
.pyc files are always generated at run time on the local machine, they
shouldn't be in any distribution. What you're seeing is normal if
you've run Leo from a directory and are comparing that to a directory
where Leo hasn't been run.
If you run Leo in both directories they're may still be differences
in .pyc files depending on settings.
.pyc files are just bytecode compiled python which loads a little
faster the next time the program is run.
Cheers -Terry
Edward K. Ream
> I would suggest that right up at the top of that page be a statement
> somewhat along these lines:
>
> ----
> The core Leo code is always being improved and developed, using a
> rigorous unit-testing blah-blah that ensures that the daily commits
> are as bug-free as possible. In fact (insert #% or qualifier) of the
> time, downloading the most recent "nightly snapshot" of the
> development code from our version control system Bazaar (link to here
> http://www.greygreen.org/leo/) is going to give you code that is just
> as stable and much more up-to-date than the most recent "release"
> available here (link to http://sourceforge.net/projects/leo/files/OldFiles/),
> which most Leonistas would at this point consider already outdated. If
> you are just checking Leo out, feel free to use the latter release
> download if it makes you feel more secure, but once you've decided to
> work with Leo on a regular basis, we highly recommend regularly
> keeping your installation up to date with the most recent snapshot.
Many thanks for this most excellent writing. I envy those who can
produce this kind of friendly, chatty, clear and informative writing.
I'll put it up asap.
> Only after you've addressed the needs of "mere users" should there be
> a section, or again a link to a separate page for programmers who may
> be interested in helping to develop Leo, and make it clear that Bazaar
> is the way to go for them (and currently only them), and only then add
> a note about Bazaar's current problems with memory usage and any Leo-
> specific suggestions and workarounds, again clearly targeted to that
> particular audience.
I just finished getting leo-editor installed on my brother's machine.
It's not so easy. Otoh, pulling the latest version is definitely the
easiest way.
Still, I think this suggestion has merit, provided it is also made
clear that bzr isn't only for developers.
Edward
mdb
bzr update.
Could be a leo file with a button running a python script and includes
unit tests to show off leo capabilities.
In fact, an 'Examples' Help item for demos such as this would be good
way to learn what leo can do.
BTW -- after problems getting bzr update to run I have had no issues
with pulling and using updates, however I update less than once a week
and rarely use the features not in 4.9 (or at least I notice few
differences) and I use my 4.9 version as often as I use the updated
version (with two separate desktop shortcuts I somewhat randomly
select between the two)
On Dec 4, 2:38 pm, "Edward K. Ream" <edream...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 2:46 AM, HansBKK <hans...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I would suggest that right up at the top of that page be a statement
> > somewhat along these lines:
>
> > ----
> > The core Leo code is always being improved and developed, using a
> > rigorous unit-testing blah-blah that ensures that the daily commits
> > are as bug-free as possible. In fact (insert #% or qualifier) of the
> > time, downloading the most recent "nightly snapshot" of the
> > development code from our version control system Bazaar (link to here
> >http://www.greygreen.org/leo/) is going to give you code that is just
> > as stable and much more up-to-date than the most recent "release"
> > available here (link tohttp://sourceforge.net/projects/leo/files/OldFiles/),
HansBKK
> Many thanks for this most excellent writing.
>> somewhat along these lines:
Do please edit for what you think is the proper tone etc - and I hope you find something to replace "blah blah" with 8-)
> provided it is also made clear that bzr isn't only for developers.
IMO there shouldn't be any mention of Bazaar in the mainstream "getting started with Leo", unless presented as "keeping up to date" or "for people looking to contributed". And until the Bazaar memory issues are resolved I think only the latter.
Someone who's never heard of a version control system should be much less intimidated by "unzip this here and create a batch file" than figuring out Bazaar.
Unless you are intentionally trying to filter out the great unwashed to reduce the support load. . .
HansBKK
bzr branch lp:leo-editor
bzr: out of memory \ Fetching revisions:Inserting stream:Estimate 68110/74499
Win7 4GB, Process Explorer estimates I'm using 1.3GB currently (without bzr).
I believe my remarks on the docs/website content are still applicable, and likely to remain so for a while, as this seems to be an ongoing bazaar problem rather than anything specific to Leo's code.
lewis
> I believe my remarks on the docs/website content are still applicable, and
> likely to remain so for a while, as this seems to be an ongoing bazaar
> problem rather than anything specific to Leo's code.
I updated to the latest bazaar 2.5b4-1 and after trying
C:\bazaar>bzr branch lp:leo-editor
subsequently reported the out of memory bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/902493
They responded very quickly and have marked the bug invalid and
changed it to a question
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/902493
This answer is effectively a workaround to the bug and advises that I
also need to set up ssh, see the following page for instructions on
that:
https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
This is a further 6 step process to be ready to login successfully and
use bzr+ssh.
Wow.
My initial reaction was interest in setting up ssh as I've never
needed to before and I've not been prodded so keenly to get a program
to work.
However I have to say that feeling has faded. Even though I've been
happy with Bazaar and prepared to battle along as it makes progress,
I've decided to hold off until the Bazaar team really solve the bug.
Edward, I know you commented to Ville previously about using
Tortoisehg "I agree. I am in no rush." I keenly look forward to
trying it - it can't be more difficult or non-trivial than Bazaar.
Regards
Lewis
HansBKK
For the latter, downloading the snapshot from Terry's nightly zip should be IMO the recommended procedure in the documentation.
Terry Brown
HansBKK <han...@gmail.com> wrote:
> bzr: out of memory \ Fetching revisions:Inserting stream:Estimate
> 68110/74499
I wonder if it's impossible to purge the glitch from LP without truly
deleting the whole repo. there.
When you pushed trunk2, Edward, how long did it take? If it was quick,
<< 1 min., then it must be using existing revisions, and only a true
delete would clear the glitch. I'll try and repeat my tests on trunk2
and leo_test soon, kind of slammed time wise at the moment.
Cheers -Terry
lewis
On Dec 11, 3:15 pm, HansBKK <hans...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I sure hope you're talking all this trouble because you're someone who is
> contributing to Leo's code ("pushing"?) rather than just wanting to keep up
> to date.
It's more complex than that; I have been a happy Bazaar user ever
since it was chosen as the best way to get the latest and greatest Leo
builds. I have one machine which has had many versions of Bazaar. It
reliably worked using 'bzr branch lp:leo-editor' and it continues
reliably with a simple 'bzr pull' or 'bzr qpull' for the build.
Lately the 'bzr: out of memory' bug has reared up and persisted. A new
Leo user being faced with this might find it quite a challenge if they
chose the bazaar path. These discussions around the guidelines for
installing and keeping leo up to date are interesting to me as I feel
it is one of the impediments to leo being perceived as a polished
product.
I am not a coder/programmer but an end user so an effective way to
contribute is to imagine myself as someone new to Leo and raise
usability issues and bugs as they arise. Despite my tone being a
little jaded with Bazaar I don't really see it as "taking all this
trouble"; more like an opinion to help Leo develop as Edward chooses.
The encouragement and support found in the forums is very valuable,
and I encourage all users of leo to interact when they feel tempted to
ask a question.
Regards
Lewis
HansBKK
> These discussions around the guidelines for installing and keeping leo up to date are interesting to me as I feel it is one of the impediments to leo being perceived as a polished product.
Exactly my motivation as well, I've solved the problem for myself and
would hate to see others get a bad impression. . .
> I am not a coder/programmer but an end user so an effective way to contribute is to imagine myself as someone new to Leo and raise usability issues and bugs as they arise.
Unfortunately it takes zero imagination for me to be able to do that
without pretending 8-)
And you're right, it's the perfect time for me to help contribute in
that way, and I'm trying.