Who should be using Leo

[Edward K. Ream]

There are two main reasons to use Leo:

1. Programmers use Leo's API to write powerful scripts.

2. Non programmers use clones to organize data.

So if you aren't a programmer, and you don't use clones, then why, exactly, are you using Leo? You would be much better off with TheBrain.  Really.

Edward

P.S. Imo, all programmers should use clones, but that's a matter of the next posting.

EKR

[Chris George]

I am not a programmer.

I came to Leo a decade or so ago. Leo was the only tool that met my three criteria when I was shopping for an information manager.

1. Runs native on Linux. After 5 years owning a white box computer retailer, I was sick of Windows in all its iterations. My last day at work I built myself a nice computer and installed Slackware on it. That was in 2001. There was no way I was ever going back to Windows.

2. Runs offline. I live in a rural area. From 2008-2011 we had 56k dial-up as our only Internet option. Did you know that a vast portion of the Internet, including services like file hosting and most applications, will not work with dial-up?

3. Supports clones. Clones are the bomb when it comes to organizing long, intricate documents. Fiction, non-fiction, technical; clones are the only solution for many problems.

I have, of course, kept my eye on new software and to date Leo still stands alone when it comes to my criteria. New software continues to come rolling down the pike though. But I already have an enormous amount of information in Leo. I don't imagine I would ever switch without a seriously compelling reason.

Chris

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 1:29 PM Chris George <techn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not a programmer...Clones are the bomb when it comes to organizing long, intricate documents.

So you qualify :-) You aren't a programmer but you do use clones.

Edward

[john lunzer]

I would add: you are a programmer that desires powerful code/project organization tools.

I'm not sure what brought me to Leo, but I stayed because I could divide up my code into language agnostic chunks that made sense to me, no longer confined to what any one's syntax had to offer in terms of organization. 

Leo is a king here. emacs with outshine and ivy can give you cheap imitation of what Leo offers. Obviously there is pharo+grafoscopio but my work culture can't tolerate that level of unorthodoxy, it could barely handle Leo. 

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 5:03 PM john lunzer <lun...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would add: you are a programmer that desires powerful code/project organization tools.

I'm not sure what brought me to Leo, but I stayed because I could divide up my code into language agnostic chunks that made sense to me, no longer confined to what any one's syntax had to offer in terms of organization. 

Leo is a king here. emacs with outshine and ivy can give you cheap imitation of what Leo offers. Obviously there is pharo+grafoscopio but my work culture can't tolerate that level of unorthodoxy, it could barely handle Leo. 

Thanks for these comments.  I may play with pharo et. al. to get a feel for live code.  But that's not likely ever to more than a toy project.

Edward

[Zoom.Quiet]

Edward K. Ream <edre...@gmail.com> 于2019年1月18日周五 上午2:13写道：

>
> There are two main reasons to use Leo:
>

and the true power reason:
0: programmers use Leo develop and manage projects

> 1. Programmers use Leo's API to write powerful scripts.
>
> 2. Non programmers use clones to organize data.
>
> So if you aren't a programmer, and you don't use clones, then why, exactly, are you using Leo? You would be much better off with TheBrain. Really.
>

No No No No*42
TheBrain-style https://www.thebrain.com/support/tutorials
tools just result the fake problem for record minds:
- them try usage chaos mapping as snap for real brain's chaos minds cosmos
- look great and beauty
- but chaos is chaos , chaos info. even put into graph mapping, is can
not help work export
- not like Leo @auto-md / etc. action nodes, the unlimited notes
outline can auto export like .md etc. works file
- the Brain beyond Dynalist/WorkFlowy/...etc. the B-tree list, base
undirected graph
- but when the discuss object need more than 42 nodes to describe...
will make new problems:
- the big image is beyond human's buffer...means we had to more and
more time to review old nodes relation
- the new node must include more relation with faraway nodes, but we
can not easy link them
- even we think hard linked all nodes as right relation, it will make
reader more hard to understand "the Brain"
...

IMHO:
define/describe mind and export mind is very different problems;
and them is can not be compatible;
only focus help people right export minds as can easy usage/read
stuff, is true helpful tools;
conversely easy record, but make new problems for input, is fake tools;

means:
- understand self mind is hard
- but make others understand some mind from mine, is hard the up problems
- and make understand easy is helpful world them only snap self minds chaos
- so Leo found the grace and balance ways:
0: base B-tree
1: record self mind in outlines
2: force export works files with node-command
3: background actions help develop/thinker/writer/... auto management
.leo database

now base Flexx extend Leo interface new spaces,
that is very helpful new user ejnoy Leo's help.

sayeahoo.

> Edward
>
> P.S. Imo, all programmers should use clones, but that's a matter of the next posting.
>
> EKR
>

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[Israel Hands]

Hi Edward - I don't think I'm in the target audience, at all!

I mostly use Leo to organise things.

Passwords, account settings etc.

But then I want to also deal with longer form text - LaTex infact. I have used Scrivener but I've tried moving this to Leo and it doesn't look as nice or have as many features but is more flexible and cross platform updates are all in sync.

Leo's abbreviations make LaTex great fun.

I have loads of documents in text files and I can import them in seconds and if I want @auto them - handy handy.

I've tried to replace orgmode with Leo - but that has had limited success.

Oh yes I write 25 line python scripts of terrible quality.

And if I have a problem in any of these activities I post here and people who know (salute Terry - sorely missed!) are very helpful and never frustrated by my level of competence.

And if the web stuff becomes simple enough I might be able to Leo my files on the iPad.

Leo never crashes.

Leo is open on all my computers whenever they are on. What's not to like?

IH

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 8:24 PM Zoom.Quiet <zoom....@gmail.com> wrote:

and the true power reason:
0: programmers use Leo develop and manage projects

Good point. I agree.

> So if you aren't a programmer, and you don't use clones, then why, exactly, are you using Leo? You would be much better off with TheBrain.  Really.
>

No No No No*42

Hehe.  It seems that you and Joe Orr agree.

TheBrain-style https://www.thebrain.com/support/tutorials
tools just result the fake problem for record minds:
- them try usage chaos mapping as snap for real brain's chaos minds cosmos
- look great and beauty
- but chaos is chaos , chaos info. even put into graph mapping, is can
not help work export
- not like Leo @auto-md / etc. action nodes, the unlimited notes
outline can auto export like .md etc. works file
- the Brain beyond Dynalist/WorkFlowy/...etc. the B-tree list, base
undirected graph
- but when the discuss object need more than 42 nodes to describe...
will make new problems:
- the big image is beyond human's buffer...means we had to more and
more time to review old nodes relation
- the new node must include more relation with faraway nodes, but we
can not easy link them
- even we think hard linked all nodes as right relation, it will make
reader more hard to understand "the Brain"

Many thanks for this.  It seems that I don't understand all of the implications of Leo :-)

If I understand you, you are saying that Leo's outlines are easier to understand for large data than "good looking" graphs.

Edward

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 5:59 AM Israel Hands <alis...@mcgh.ee> wrote:

Hi Edward - I don't think I'm in the target audience, at all!

Heh. I was hardly expecting all these comments.  They have been eye opening.

I mostly use Leo to organise things.

Passwords, account settings etc.

But then I want to also deal with longer form text - LaTex in fact. I have used Scrivener but I've tried moving this to Leo and it doesn't look as nice or have as many features but is more flexible and cross platform updates are all in sync.

Interesting.

Leo's abbreviations make LaTex great fun.

I have loads of documents in text files and I can import them in seconds and if I want @auto them - handy handy.

Also interesting.

I've tried to replace org mode with Leo - but that has had limited success.

What problems have you encountered?

Oh yes I write 25 line python scripts of terrible quality.

And if I have a problem in any of these activities I post here and people who know (salute Terry - sorely missed!) are very helpful and never frustrated by my level of competence.

And if the web stuff becomes simple enough I might be able to Leo my files on the iPad.

Leo never crashes.

Leo is open on all my computers whenever they are on. What's not to like?

Thanks for this vote of confidence.  I appreciate it.

Is it alright with you if I add your words to the "What people are saying about Leo?"

Edward

[Zoom.Quiet]

Edward K. Ream <edre...@gmail.com> 于2019年1月18日周五 下午8:09写道：

Hummm, by my chaos cnglish....
yes, my keypoint is :
Leo's outlines not only for recoding minds,
and most important just focus to export can work files, not like
others "the Brain" only look good.

> Edward

[rengel]

On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 7:13:21 PM UTC+1, Edward K. Ream wrote:

So if you aren't a programmer, and you don't use clones, then why, exactly, are you using Leo? You would be much better off with TheBrain.  Really.

If you aren't a programmer and use TheBrain you don't need clones, because an entry/item in TheBrain can have any number of parents without the need of cloning. One entry (=node) without copies or pointers suffices.

Reinhard

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 7:42 AM rengel <reinhard...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you aren't a programmer and use TheBrain you don't need clones, because an entry/item in TheBrain can have any number of parents without the need of cloning. One entry (=node) without copies or pointers suffices.

Those who do use TheBrain need not justify their choice :-)

Edward

[rengel]

Well said! But that's not what I tried to communicate. I just wanted to clarify that the whole idea of clones is alien to TheBrain, because it's basically a network and not a tree/dag. The need for clones only arises if one tries to map a network on a tree. But of course, that's something I don't need to tell you...

Reinhard

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 1:11 AM rengel <reinhard...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Those who do use TheBrain need not justify their choice :-)

Well said! But that's not what I tried to communicate. I just wanted to clarify that the whole idea of clones is alien to TheBrain, because it's basically a network and not a tree/dag. The need for clones only arises if one tries to map a network on a tree. But of course, that's something I don't need to tell you...

I suspect that TheBrain is based on a DAG, but I do not know for sure.

Edward

[rengel]

On Saturday, January 19, 2019 at 12:55:27 PM UTC+1, Edward K. Ream wrote:

...

I suspect that TheBrain is based on a DAG, but I do not know for sure.

Definitely not. You can construct cycles like:

PARENT1 -> CHILD -> GRANDCHILD -> PARENT1  (closing the cycle)

Although there is a single item/node (=thought in TheBrain's lingo) that is designated the 'Home' thought, you can redefine it with two clicks. Additionally you can construct forests with any number of independent roots/trees (or just single items/orphans if these dont't have children). Independent of any connections, instant retrieval is always possible using a thought's title.

Reinhard

[Xavier G. Domingo]

I'm a programmer, but are not yet using powerful scripts (although it's on my plans), so I don't qualify for the first reason yet.

I do qualify for the second, but I would add two other KILLER FEATURES that make Leo beat others IMHO:

• Re-organizing your nodes is a snap! I can change what was a bulleted list in the body of a node into a set of child nodes in a moment, so I can easily expand the ideas in all of them. What was body text now is a node! In this sense emacs is at par I think (although it has its own limitations which you already know), but I'm not sure if TheBrain can compete.

• The code architecture of Leo - with a well-thought core- makes it "easy" to add new GUIs when the need arises, like the recent curses or LeoWapp! This makes investing in Leo a really safe investment because I know it will easily adapt to the future needs... and they will come for sure! That's why Leo has more than 2 decades and is today more alive than ever!!  :-)
  

Oh, and there's a third:

• Its code is open-source!!

I don't think TheBrain can compete with those...

The best future for Leo!

Xavier

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[rengel]

On Saturday, January 19, 2019 at 6:46:32 PM UTC+1, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) wrote:

...

I don't think TheBrain can compete with those...

You are right, TheBrain can't compete with those features. Thing is, it doesn't want to. It's strictly a PIM and knowledge organizer, not a programmer's tool, editor, or IDE. It's not either/or but both...and. But enough of this. I'm not an evangelist for TheBrain, but just tried to point to a tool that might be useful to others. It's just a tiny form of sharing. I'm thankful for all the links I received from other people. After that it's just 'take it or leave it'.

Reinhard

[Xavier G. Domingo]

El 20/01/2019 a las 1:41, rengel escribió:

I'm not an evangelist for TheBrain, but just tried to point to a tool that might be useful to others...

And I thank you for that, Reinhard! I didn't know TheBrain until you mentioned and I like some of its features.

My contribution did not pretend to be a word "against" TheBrain, but to emphasise those points that I find unique in Leo and which make me keep sticking to it. Leo has yet many limitations and cannot compete with TheBrain in visual representation, media integration and scale..., but those are not important enough for me to make me reconsider my election of Leo as my PIM.

I've been, like you, a searcher for "the perfect PIM" for a long time and tried many in the past. And I still keep on trying because I'm still searching for my "perfect formula" for information management. And I think I will be in this quest for ever...

But the potential of Leo is IMMENSE. I can feel it. It's there, just waiting for us to make it shine. It's difficult for me to express it in words because... it's just a feeling, an intuition. The best of Leo is yet to come!

Don't stop making your contribution, because everyone's view sums.

My best wishes,

Xavier

[Matt Wilkie]

Hummm, by my chaos cnglish....

Zoom.Quiet I love your chaotic cnglish.

The familiar words in unfamiliar combinations reveals meanings that were always there, but out of sight.

Your insight that "easy to record" is not the same at all of "easy to share with understanding" is pure gold.

Matt

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 17/1/19 18:03, john lunzer wrote:
>
> Leo is a king here. emacs with outshine and ivy can give you cheap
> imitation of what Leo offers. Obviously there is pharo+grafoscopio but
> my work culture can't tolerate that level of unorthodoxy, it could
> barely handle Leo.

:-)

Je, je. Yes Leo brings unorthodoxy to the flat files programming world
by adding emergent arbitrary structure that makes sense to the one who
is creating/using it and others in the workplace by using just what Leo
imports/exports are loosing all the fun, but maybe their head are
already trapped by their tools. Pharo+Grafoscopio is another level of
unorthodoxy with live coding, pure objects, moldable tools, but the mind
share is really small.

One of the nice things to do software prototypes as a way of doing
design research (on non software topics) is the possibility to ask how
our tools trapped ourselves and what can be done about this. Now that
Leo is going into more playful paths, hopefully we will see some of
those questions answered from the Leo perspective.

Cheers,

Offray

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

In my case my path was something like TheBrain -> Leo -> Grafoscopio, and from idea/PIM to documentation to coding. So I think that maybe this is an interesting path in the context of this thread. Some details below.

• TheBrain was the first software I ever bought (several years, maybe decades ago). I have this idea of computers as cognitive devices to help you in organizing thinking. But the more I used Linux, the less I used TheBrain. I thought the version was not well supported on Linux or maybe it was something related with files support.
• I was interested in Python and in some forum I found about Leo as a prime example of a Python app (instead of Zope, that was the "premier" Python app at that moment). The concept of clones immediately resonated with me and the possibilities of "literate programming" that for me, at that moment meant being able to import and export files from Leo. I was missing some of the more visual experience of TheBrain, but the possibility or organize almost everything in my Linux day to day experience from a single outline that talked with the files in my Linux machine was unique. Leo was between the first programs I stalled on any Linux machine. I traverse my documentation trees and started to recreate the state of the machine I wanted from single outlines.
  
  The more I worked with text, the more I was interested in programming and changing Leo and for that @script and @buttons where a great introduction (as Vilie's video tutorials and Leo docs). I even made a small script to export certain parts of a Leo document to an external Markdown document. It felt pretty empowering.
  
  I was also interested in interactive programming and I even tried to create a merge between Jupyter and Leo, but there was a lot of incidental complexity, as reported in [1] http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html
• I started to implement some of those ideas focusing on the experience (interactive outliners with support for live coding) instead of the technologies (Leo, Jupyter) and using Pharo ecosystem instead. Several of the ideas that I struggled with for years, where prototyped in months, even as a coder newbie. The moldability of the Pharo environment and the way it helps to keep your code understandable and small and the real time feedback you get while coding is something I have not seen in any computing environment or programming language before.
  

These days I not use TheBrain at all since several years and instead use Free Plane when I want to do visual mind mapping. My use of Leo is mostly for quick outlines, but I still have pretty much of my old outlines in backups and Pharo + Grafoscopio is the tool where I build most of my prototypes and do coding. There is still a long path to traverse improving Grafoscopio and making it as ergonomic as Leo. They don't overlap because Leo is not directed towards live coding and there are several places where Leo is superb like import/export of external files to deconstruct and reconstruct them, where Grafoscopio is not pointing (I would rather use Leo for that).

But Leo legacy goes beyond code and this community makes a living part of it.

Cheers,

Offray

[Matt Wilkie]

But Leo legacy goes beyond code and this community makes a living part of it.

Thank you for sharing the outline of your journey Offray. It's so interesting to see where people's explorations take them. 

It seems to be a common theme that a fair number of us started using Leo for its info management features and grew into coding later. (You, Chris George, and myself come to mind immediately. I'm sure I'm forgetting and don't know of others.)

Matt

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Thanks Matt.

I wonder frequently where our tools will lead us and which travels they help us to do. In my case the need to go from info management to coding was kind of a natural path once the information became too complex and it was showcased by the scripting capabilities of Leo, but I wanted more live coding capabilities (ala Jupyter) and more moldability, which lead me to Pharo.

Know that Leo is "done" and the playful dimension of the project is resurfacing I wonder the travels to come for this community and its members with this tool.

Cheers,

Offray

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:14 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <off...@riseup.net> wrote:

> Now that Leo is "done" and the playful dimension of the project is resurfacing I wonder the travels to come for this community and its members with this tool.

This is the question I'll be playing with on my break.

Edward

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Nice to know this. Keep Lua, Pharo and live coding into the radar to see which inspirations they bring to you.

Cheers,

Offray

[huliuhe]

I 'm  programer,  I use leo to write doc.   not code. because of  Code intelligence prediction

在 2019年1月18日星期五 UTC+8上午2:13:21，Edward K. Ream写道：

[Neal Becker]

I am not yet using leo, just trying to understand it at this time.  I program almost always in python.  I wonder if leo is useful for literate python programming?  If so, how is this done?

Neal

[Matt Wilkie]

I am not yet using leo, just trying to understand it at this time.  I program almost always in python.  I wonder if leo is useful for literate python programming?  If so, how is this done?

I read about Leo and lurked on the mailing list a long time before using it in any real way. I think this route to getting started with Leo isn't that uncommon. I still only use a fraction of it's range.

For literate programming, one approach is to intersperse @doc and @code: http://leoeditor.com/directives.html#part-5-all-other-directives. Though I don't know that this is capital L literate in the sense of http://www.literateprogramming.com/.

Also "run [selected node and descendants] as code" (execute-script, Ctrl-B) is really powerful, http://leoeditor.com/slides/commands.html#executing-python-scripts-in-body-text

matt

[GPiette]

LEO:  I love it as much as I hate it.

Several years ago, I stumbled onto LEO and a screen cast that explained how to break down a complex HTML document into nodes that contained each component of the page (head, body, etc.) and further break down JS code into functions in each node, CCS statements, etc. and drill down into the complexity of the page by documenting it.  AhAh moment!  Leo could help me with that.

At the time I was trying to understand how to make simple folding sections for a rather simple HTML page meant to be a presentation. I know, I know, use Powerpoint, but that is besides the point.  Looking at a simple CodeProject page source code for those folding arrows was too hard to understand.  Maybe LEO would help me do like was shown on the screencast example?  So I stuck with LEO and had gotten pretty good at what Joe Orr demonstrated again to me in the good example of LeoVue: chunking.   Just as I was starting to be comfortable with some basic Leo commands, my XP box blew up and the loss of my work discouraged me from re-learning the little I knew at that point.   I kept reading on LEO and a few years later I re-installed LEO on a different computer.

I now started to use LEO to generate simple web pages with the @file command, but never really got organized in my mind all of the complexity of the myriad of commands.  No matter how I read the tutorials, viewed some YouTube docs, I found it hard to figure out all I had learned on the XP box, buttons, having tabs for recent files, etc.  I used clones of HTML parts to drag and drop between nodes that wrote to different HTML output files but have yet to figure out how break the link between clones so that a clone no longer is one so that it becomes a simple node that can now be modified without affecting its parents.  Could have cut and pasted a node instead of cloning it, but organizing all heads or other sections  of various html pages in one area using clones helped in quickly soot differences, etc.  It is just too powerful for my weak mind, hence I hate it.  Hate not LEO, but my lack of comprehension of how to best use LEO.  Sometimes, a file created by a LEO @clean outline gets modified outside of LEO and now all kinds of artifacts shows up in the LEO file. Grrr!

Leo is simply the greatest documenting tool for explaining stuff that can be written in external files. I am not a programmer. Just a tinkerer.  It has so many, too many possibilities, that it confuses me to no end, driving me nuts.  As stubborn as I am with tinkering, I think that it is this complexity of options that prevents a greater adoption of Leo to the newcomer.  The tutorials explain very well how a specific function or feature work, but I have not found a tutorial  as in LEO for dummies like me that would explain how to create a simple HTML page from an outline, adding slowly the concepts of documenting the nodes, commenting out HTML sections that are no longer relevant without them being written out to the external files, etc, colorizing the html or whatever language like in other scripting editors, etc.

I yearn for the potential of LEO everyday I use it, yet am overwhelmed by all the features offered and hate it because of this.  Like any complex relationship, it is hard to break this cycle of love-hate because I believe that some day I will have the ahha moment when the lights will turn on and I will discover how to use a feature new to me.  I need structured learning and Leo is meant to be used to organize chaos by creating structures to hold data.  But it does hand hold me enough to realize the full potential I know is there, waiting to be explained, understood and used.

For a PIM, I use Todolist by Abstract Spoon Software and this is my preferred replacement for PCOutline that I have used for years ever since it came bundled with WordStar.

Meantime, I keep reading all the discussions from all those brilliant minds that create and augment LEO in this forum, most of it beyond my level of understanding.  Some discoveries like UVOutliner and the Brain mentioned help explore alternatives, but I keep coming back to LEO, in what might be a lifelong project.

LEO:  Love it lots, but hate not loving it enough to understand it fully.

Gérard

[Matt Wilkie]

LEO:  Love it lots, but hate not loving it enough to understand it fully.

Gérard, merci pour votre histoire honnête (thank you for the honest story) of your life with Leo. It mirrors parts of my own, especially the ongoing struggle with not knowing how to really embrace it and make it part of my central info management.

Matt

[Chris George]

...especially the ongoing struggle with not knowing how to really embrace it and make it part of my central info management.

Leo is like a great big tool box with everything you need to disassemble and reassemble a SpaceX rocket. Every tool is there and there is nothing lacking.

The documentation does a great job of describing each tool and exactly what it is for and precisely what it can do.

A new user picks this up and looks at his '72 Chevelle of a problem and really has no idea where to start applying the tools to his much smaller problem never mind a rocket.

Neither rocket nor sports car come with instructions. But we have all the tools.

Which is a long winded way of saying that I have been through the same problems.

Perhaps we should start a series of focused tutorials that walk users through common information management tasks using Leo. Start small and introduce the power where needed.

Chris

[Israel Hands]

Hi Edward sorry for the delay. Please feel free to use any comments that are helpful.

Org Mode - has a brilliant capture front end. Simple keyboard shortcuts to create todos and agenda entries.

And it is the Agenda that sells it to me - a calendar based list of things to do and notes, mixed with a diary that includes recurring events very flexibly scheduled.

Single key shortcuts to display - this week, this month, this year.

And the icing on the cake the agenda spits out OS based reminders so even if I am not in Emacs the Org mode reminder to make some tea will attract my attention.

Thanks again for all your work and patience.

IH

On Thursday, 17 January 2019 18:13:21 UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:

[Rob]

Gérard, much of what you say I could have said as well. I saw a video recently where the speaker asked a question about which software tool the audience 'lived in'. I practically 'live in' Leo as I do almost all of my writing and most of my PIM stuff (except calendar and email). I use only a fraction of the available commands and tools and would probably be efficient if I used more of them.

Several years ago, I stumbled onto LEO and a screen cast that explained how to break down a complex HTML document into nodes that contained each component of the page (head, body, etc.) and further break down JS code into functions in each node, CCS statements, etc. and drill down into the complexity of the page by documenting it.  AhAh moment!  Leo could help me with that.

Yes, I use Leo for this as well. However, there's still a fair amount of work to clean up the outline after import, but it's usually worth the effort to be able to see the entire page or CSS file in outline mode. 

I used clones of HTML parts to drag and drop between nodes that wrote to different HTML output files but have yet to figure out how break the link between clones so that a clone no longer is one so that it becomes a simple node that can now be modified without affecting its parents.

Yes, that would be problem. Generally not a good idea to create cross-file clones. However, if you already have them, when you find them, simply cut/paste the node in place (without cloning) CTRL-SHFT-X, then CTRL-SHFT-V. Should be a quick surgical replacement.

 colorizing the html or whatever language like in other scripting editors, etc.

That one's easy; simply place @language html in one of the parent nodes and if your colorizer settings are set, the syntax coloring will work.

HTH

Rob...

[Josef]

Much has already been said, but I want to add anyway my view.

I am a manager, physicist and perhaps an electrical engineer. I use serveral differnt editors all the time, for different reasons, like vim and scite sometime  emacs. I use Leo on complex projects, involving many files. I have small python and Lua scripts, Lua tables, plain text files, many LaTeX files, CSV files, Markdown files, lots of PDF's for reference, spreadsheets, todo lists. I write documentation, write simple tools to help with business and scientific calculations. I do this all in a company with 20 people, working in small teams.

I use Leo as a project manager. It glues together all kind of stuff, allows me to do some jobs with a little script, and interfaces well with others. Some other tools may be better for some other things and I use other tools too, but I keep coming back to Leo for much of my work. Leo manages to be generic enough to co-exist well with other tools and bring all these different files together.

[Josef]

Oh - I forgot to mention, I use clones, but rarely, mostly because many of my leaf nodes are small, separate files.

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 8:39 AM Josef <joe...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Much has already been said, but I want to add anyway my view.
>

> I am a manager, physicist and perhaps an electrical engineer. I use several different editors all the time, for different reasons, like vim and scite sometime emacs. I use Leo on complex projects, involving many files. I have small python and Lua scripts, Lua tables, plain text files, many LaTeX files, CSV files, Markdown files, lots of PDF's for reference, spreadsheets, todo lists. I write documentation, write simple tools to help with business and scientific calculations. I do this all in a company with 20 people, working in small teams.

>
> I use Leo as a project manager. It glues together all kind of stuff, allows me to do some jobs with a little script, and interfaces well with others. Some other tools may be better for some other things and I use other tools too, but I keep coming back to Leo for much of my work. Leo manages to be generic enough to co-exist well with other tools and bring all these different files together.

Thanks for this. I'd like to add this to the "what people are saying
about Leo" section. Is that alright with you?

Edward

[Josef]

Sure, you are welcome to use this. Sadly I have not been able to convince any of my co-workers to use Leo themselves, although they were impressed by some of the tasks I was able to do with Leo. I guess most people stick with the tools they already know and rarely try something new, especially when it takes some time to learn a new tool.

By the way, I use Leo more for editing tasks and less for collecting information. For the latter I prefer using zim-wiki, because it is easier to cut and paste information into it (links just work). Zim-wiki is not usable as an editor, though.

- Josef