shirat hayam

[sacher...@yahoo.com]

Does anyone have a complete recording of shirat hayam to the tune of
bendigamos? Also, has anyone done any other tunes for this (recordings
available)? I was asked to teach a bar mitzvah boy for weekday
tefillah. There is not much to sing and I recall discussing this a
long time ago. Any complete recordings you have (or could make and
send to me) would be greatly appreciated. While on the topic, has
anyone done anything other than the "standard" tune during kriat
hatorah on shabbat or pesach for shirat hayam? Thanks.

Michael S.

[Ari]

Whats bendigamos

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Give a child the best birthday present ever . . . the ability to live to celebrate yet another birthday. Visit https://www.dkmsamericas.org/register to register as a bone marrow donor.

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[Zev Sero]

On 24/01/2012 1:44 PM, Ari wrote:
> Whats bendigamos

https://sites.google.com/site/londonsephardimusic/table-songs/bendigamos

--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon

[Zev Sero]

This is not a leining-related topic, so it should probably have been
sent to the davening list instead. However...

On 24/01/2012 1:36 PM, sacher...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Does anyone have a complete recording of shirat hayam to the tune of
> bendigamos?

This is almost complete (until "belev yam"): http://2ug.nu.sl.pt

> Also, has anyone done any other tunes for this (recordings
> available)?

Here are about a dozen: http://2uh.nc.sl.pt

[sacher...@yahoo.com]

Thanks. The first one I did find (which is why I asked for a complete
version since, as you point out, it ends early). Although teaching it
for a weekday davening, I thought it was more related to leining since
some people may use other tunes for shirat hayam on shabbat beshalach
and pesach. I figured I was more likely to find tunes for this on the
leining group. Sorry if I misjudged. Am I to assume everyone uses the
"standard" tune for leining? If not, I would love to hear from you.

Michael S.

On Jan 24, 2:55 pm, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> This is not a leining-related topic, so it should probably have been
> sent to the davening list instead.  However...
>

[Aryeh Moshen]

Have you tried asking the family of Rev. Lopez-Cardoso if he made any recordings of it?  I can still hear his voice singing it.

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[Aryeh Moshen]

Bendigamos al Altisimo, let us bless the Aybishter (if you're a Litvak) a Spanish song sung at the end of Birkath Hamazon.

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I've always heard it before birkat hamazon. I know that Alan Corre, who translation is on the website Zev (?) linked to earlier, sings it then.

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Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Assistant Professor of Clinical Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Aryeh Moshen]

Reverand Lopez-Cardoso always sang it after Ma sheachalnu as the end with the same Pasuk

[Simon Montagu]

Here's a complete recording in three files:

http://www.spmusic.org/files/Shabbat2/15_p23d_Az_Yashir_Moshe.mp3
http://www.spmusic.org/files/Shabbat2/11_p23a_Amar_Oyev.mp3
http://www.spmusic.org/files/Shabbat2/16_p24b_Bigdol_Zeroakha.mp3

Linked from
https://sites.google.com/site/shaarhashamayimlondon/s/sabbath-shaharit-2
(but note that "Amar Oyev" is misplaced)

[Josh Hosseinof]

The Spanish-Portuguese leining of the Shirah uses a special mode known
as "high Naum". It is also used for the aseret hadibrot, the 7 days
in bereshit, end of vezot haberacha, and a few other odd places.


On Jan 24, 10:48 pm, "sacherfam...@yahoo.com" <sacherfam...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

[Tom Buchler]

Josh,
Is "high Naum" annotated somewhere to your knowledge?
-Tom

[Josh Hosseinof]

I'll make a recording of it and post it shortly for the Aseret
Hadibrot in Yitro.
A reference to High Naum can be found here under the Cantillation
heading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_and_Portuguese_Jews

[Josh Hosseinof]

I placed a recording of parashat Yitro according to the Spanish and
Portuguese Nusach on my recordings folder here: http://www.hoss.net/recordings
- The 6th aliyah which contains the 10 commandments will show you the
example of the "High Naum" mode of the Spanish Portuguese leining.
There are also several other nuschaot recordings that I have made
which are relevant for Adar.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 18, 6:29 pm, Josh Hosseinof <j...@hoss.net> wrote:
> I placed a recording of parashat Yitro according to the Spanish and
> Portuguese Nusach on my recordings folder here:http://www.hoss.net/recordings
> - The 6th aliyah which contains the 10 commandments will show you the
> example of the "High Naum" mode of the Spanish Portuguese leining.
> There are also several other nuschaot recordings that I have made
> which are relevant for Adar.

I am insufficiently familiar with S&P chanting to comment. But I did
listen to your Megilas Estair "Ashkanas". What Ashkanasim ever failed
to distinguish between tov and sov, between tzayre and segol, between
komatz and patach?

GEK
whishing everyone a good week and most joyful month of Ador.

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

What Ashkanasim ever failed
to distinguish between tov and sov, between tzayre and segol, between
komatz and patach?

GEK»

Many Israeli Ashkenazim
As well as many Modern Orthodox who use Israeli "havara"

In Cong. Mt. Sinai in Washington Heights my later friend R Yeudah Hilewitz A"H used to lain with modern Israeli pronunciation [he was born in Palestine] using yekke Trope [he was raised in South Africa]

And fwiw, besides being Pastinian, Afro-American, and Jewish he claimed being unique in that he combined Yekke Trope with Israeli Hebrew.

He also is probably the last Baal K'riah to lain regularly at the old Audubon Ballroom

Y'hee Zichro Varuch
Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 18, 8:22 pm, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

All that may be so. But once you abandon what our ancestors handed
down to us, it is no longer what it was. It is something else.
Ashkanas is Ashkanas. Modern Israeli Hebrew is an invention. It is not
Ashkanas, but a mishmash of the worst of both traditions combined into
one. And once you invent new traditions by fiat, there is no limit. We
hear all the time people pronouncint kamatz katon like a patch. Only
occasionlly do I hear a sin or mamach pronounced like a tess. One
really memorable one was "Titu vetimchu betimchat Torah". I'm not
joking!

Now you may think he was only doing it as Simchas Torah shtick? Not
so! I remember in my early days in America. Newcomers from eastern and
central Europe whose ancestors had always pronounce shuruq like
cheeriq were cautioned that this would label them as "greeners" and
they would never advence anywhere in America. So of course they took
precautions to avoid it. The result was this fellow who, on the first
night of RH, wished me in all sincerity and solemnity a "kesoova
vechasooma tova". In Yiddish too - this fellow with a bandage on his
finger explained that "ich hab sich zushooten dem foonger".

GEK
whishing good week and joyful Ador and Pourim to everyone
and reminding to "sh'ma b'ni musar avicha veal titosh toras imecho"

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

All that may be so. But once you abandon what our ancestors handed

down to us, it is no longer what it was. »

Authentic Minhag Ashkenaz hasn't been pure outside of a few communites for a long time

The Arizal and the Gra - mong others - helped to make sweeping changes.

EG Who says Akdamus after the first passuk?

Who puts on Tefillin during Chol Hamoed?


Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 18, 10:33 pm, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Yes. And it no longer is Ashkanas, but something else, derived from
Ashkanas. These derivations were made by people who were barei hochi.
Do you really think that the sorts who invented the Modern Israeli
language are of the same authority? Changes invented by Ben Yehuda (or
Ben Gurion for that matter) the same as changes invented by Ari? Are
you really suggesting that? I didn't think so.

GEK

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Do you really think that the sorts who invented the Modern Israeli
language are of the same authority? Changes invented by Ben Yehuda (or
Ben Gurion for that matter) the same as changes invented by Ari? Are
you really suggesting that? I didn't think so.

GEK»

Who is the judge of what constitutes a legitimate chane

How did Yekkes get an AU sound? Was that Torah based?

How did Ephraim learn Sibboleth? Or Litvaks?

How did most Europeans lose the TH sound?

As Professor Grinstein Z"L once lamented, who gave us a heter to dress Goyish?
Shalom and Regards, RRW

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Do you really think that the sorts who invented the Modern Israeli

language are of the same authority?»

Do you really think that all the yeshivot b'nai akiva, all the Modern Pro-Zionistic rabbanim and all thefrum Jews who nowadays use Israeli pronunciation are all wrong?


Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Cary Maister]

This issue can come up in a lot of areas of custom and halacha, and the
question I always wonder about is where do you draw the line. Many
practices, including Hebew pronunciation, have developed and shifted
over time, whether by intentional shifts by "barei hochi" or unlearned
people, cultural influences or other factors. So where do we draw the
line to decide which practices are and are not valid, and where we
should reach back to the practices of previous generations?

Personally, I learned to speak Hebrew from Israeli teachers at day
school, so I speak and lein with "a mishmash of the worst of both
traditions combined into one". Over time, I've learned more and made
adjustments: distinguishing sh'va na, emphasizing the correct syllable, etc.

Assuming that my pronunciation is "broken" and I need to fix it by going
back to my ancestors' approach, which ancestors? Should I pronounced a
tav as "s" instead of "t". Or maybe "th"? Should I not distinguish
dagesh chazak because that was lost by at least most of the Ashkenaz
community for a long time? And It seems like there's now a strong
tradition to place emphasis on the wrong syllable. If that's what
generations of Jews did, should we be sticking to that?

-Cary

[Josh Hosseinof]

I never said the leining was ashkenaz pronunciation. Most Israelis
lein nusach ashkenaz with the same pronunciation that I use. The
nusach was refering to the musical melody. I can just as easily do
ashkenaz pronunciation, but when I posted these previously on Vayavinu
Bamikra they actually preferred it with Israeli Pronunciation.

On Feb 19, 3:15 am, "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 18, 11:15 pm, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Do you really think that the sorts who invented the Modern Israeli
> language are of the same authority?»
>
> Do you really think that all the yeshivot b'nai akiva, all the Modern Pro-Zionistic  rabbanim and all thefrum Jews who nowadays use Israeli pronunciation are all wrong?

Yes. Once political considerations come into the picture, the ways of
Torah have been abandoned.

GEK

[AMK Judaica]

GEK:

 
"Once political considerations come into the picture, the ways of Torah have been abandoned."
 

i'm not going to get involved in this debate, except to note that this works both ways
 
shavuah tov,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:31:36 -0800

> Subject: [leining] Re: shirat hayam

> From: kepip...@hotmail.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Simon Montagu]

On 02/19/2012 05:47 AM, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> Do you really think that the sorts who invented the Modern Israeli
> language are of the same authority? Changes invented by Ben Yehuda (or
> Ben Gurion for that matter) the same as changes invented by Ari? Are
> you really suggesting that? I didn't think so.

Yiftahh bedoro kiShmuel bedoro

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Yes. Once political considerations come into the picture, the ways of
Torah have been abandoned.

GEK»

Maybe you're right and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't know how or why anyone else feels bound by your unitateral declaration of how THEY should think and behave, etc.

And I'm fairly certain that using Israeli pronunciation is often sociological rather than political, which seems kinda like German Jews using the AU or OW sound in the chaulam.


Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 19, 10:45 am, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes. Once political considerations come into the picture, the ways of
> Torah have been abandoned.
>
> GEK»
>
> Maybe you're right and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't know how or why anyone else feels bound by your unitateral declaration of how THEY should think and behave, etc.

I don't recall ever saying that anyone else was bound by my opinions
or declarations.

>
> And I'm fairly certain that using Israeli pronunciation is often sociological rather than political, which seems kinda like German Jews using the AU or OW sound in the chaulam.

Political or sociological, what difference? Be it politics or
sociology, it is not religion.

GEK

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Political or sociological, what difference? Be it politics or
sociology, it is not religion.

GEK»

Conservative Jewish Scholars will show you dozens of phenomena in Jewish practice based upon sociology

I heard two rabbis chatting

R1: how did the Bavli supercede the Yerushalmi?
R2: Politics
R1: I think it was sociology.

I'm told that the GRA opposed Hallel in shul on Seder Night. Yet in Israel those of his minhag do say it with a brachah

Also any Minhag Hamakom may be a form of sociology. And it stands to reason that happens in Israel re: havarah too, though some do follow Minhag Avos despite that.

Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 19, 11:31 am, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I think we will have to leave it at that. Further discussion of either
politics or sociology are off the topic and outside the scope of this
group. If you like, perhaps we can take it up in some other venue. But
to what purpose. At this point each side has stated, and amplified on,
their opinion. Neither is likely to convince the other. I think the
main point behind our differences is that one sees the modern Zionist
state as possessing some religious significance, while the other sees
it as nothing more than of utilitarian value (said utilitarian value
running rapidly in reverse of late, merely waiting with bated breath
for the enemy to say the right words and sign the right papers so they
can hand the whole thing over to the enemy and retire to their
villas).

GEK
whishing all a very happy pourim

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

GEK:
You're entitled to your opinion
And
For the most part I too lament the abandonment of Minhag Avos

I just don't think we need to be dogmatic about it

I "domatically" demanded that RM Breuer include a minority point of view [aka POV] re: merchavayah. And I was told that I had no right to "demand" how RMB does his method. If find omitting a significant alternate read as a flaw. Others claim that I have no right to point out such omissions as "flaws"

They are correct on one point, I have no right to dogmatically demand that RMB follow what I was taught

But I have every right to make a "hassgah" a critique.

GEK you indeed have every right to criticize. It just came across to me as "demand" .

All of us - moi aussi - can use a dose of flexibility - w/o necessarily fighting for what we think is right.

-------------------

In the bayyis sheini era, conversing waa done in Aramaic, davening in some dialect of Hebrew

It makes sense to me to separate conversational Hebrew from L'shon Haqodesh. But not everyone is up to the task of mastering the 2 dialects. EG I can hardly understand a modern israeli newspaper.



Shalom and Regards, RRW

-----Original Message-----
From: "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepip...@hotmail.com>
Sender: lei...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 09:41:18
To: leining<lei...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [leining] Re: shirat hayam

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Feb 19, 1:29 pm, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> In the bayyis sheini era, conversing waa done in Aramaic, davening in some dialect of Hebrew
>
> It makes sense to me to separate conversational Hebrew from L'shon Haqodesh. But not everyone is up to the task of mastering the 2 dialects. EG I can hardly understand a modern israeli newspaper.

No loss at all. There is nothing in the modern Israeli newspaper that
would make it worthwhile mastering the dialect just so you could read
it.

Gershon Eliyahu