Telisha Gedola vs. Ketana

[Avi]

When I was taught to lain, I don't remember being instructed to recite a Telisha Gedola any differently from a Telisha Ketana.  Of course there should be a short pause after a TG, as opposed to a TK which should be connected with the next word.  Most of the time, when I hear someone lain, I am unable to detect a difference between the two.  In what way do people here differentiate between TG and TK?  Listening to various recordings, a TG seems to be more drawn out or reaches a higher note than a TK.  Does anyone do differently?

Thanks,

Avi

[Andrew Sicklick]

There are 2 differences that are common in our neighborhood (Five Towns) -1)  Assuming 5 notes fro each, the last note is lower for the ketana than for the gedola; 2) some elongate/double the gedola's notes

-andrew sicklick

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[Richard]

I didn't learn a clear distinction. Though I believe Yekkes do have one

In general, when I head a Telisha Gedola I slow my tempo so as to exaggerate it a bit. So I might be hitting same notes on the scale and just lengthening each note.
-----------------------------------------
Shalom and Best Regards,
RRW

MISTAKES are always forgivable
If you have the courage to admit them.

[Richard]

Correction:

In general, when I *read* a Telisha Gedola I slow my tempo so as to exaggerate it a bit.

[Ephraim]

The back of the Hertz Chumash (pp. 1045-1046 in my edition) gives different musical notations for the two.  the TK has fewer notes and goes down more.  By eyeballing a couple of the other teamim, the musical notation in the Hertz appears to be German minhag, as expected.

Personally, I do a TG like a TK but with one additional higher note at the end.  I was once taught this, but don't know if it has any legitimate basis other than that logically there should be some distinction between them.

Ephraim

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I too was not taught a difference, but later adopted one based on some recording I heard (likely R. Weider and/or Jacobson.) TK just goes down, whereas TG goes up and then down.

Jeremy

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Associate Professor of Medicine at CUMC (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:57 PM, Avi <klein...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I was taught to lain, I don't remember being instructed to recite a Telisha Gedola any differently from a Telisha Ketana. Of course there should be a short pause after a TG, as opposed to a TK which should be connected with the next word. Most of the time, when I hear someone lain, I am unable to detect a difference between the two. In what way do people here differentiate between TG and TK? Listening to various recordings, a TG seems to be more drawn out or reaches a higher note than a TK. Does anyone do differently?

I was taught (in the key of C):
(*) T'lisha Q'tana: D-D-D-D-C (last two notes held out longer than first three)
(*) T'lisha G'dola: C-C-C C-D-E-C-D-G (first three like a "pick-up", next four faster, last two longer)
YMMV

שבת שלום, חודש טוב

Art Werschulz
a...@comcast.net

[Gideon]

I was taught a difference by my BM tutor but never really got it straight.
Then a few years later with more leining and more musical experience under my belt, I devised the following originally for my Esther trop but then ended up deciding the scale worked to do it for torah as well:

TK: telisha ketanaaaaaAAaaaa
    C C C   C C C   D E D C


TG: telisha gedolaaaaaAAaaaaa
    C C C   C C C D   F E D A

[Aryeh Moshen]

Now I wish I had taken my mother's (AH) organ.

[MP]

As RRW and Ephraim noted, the W.European ("Yekke") trope distinguishes musically between TG and TK.  I would non-musically describe the TG as being like a small mountain composed of steps (around the same amount of steps as the pazeir) which one ascends to reach the mountain's summit and then descends on the other side; while the TK is like a diamond whose points one touches counterclockwise, beginning at the southern point, similar to a r'vi'i whose points one touches clockwise, beginning at the eastern point.  Hope that makes some sense :).

Gut Chodesh/Chodesh Tov,

a gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom,

and all the best from

Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA