leining on the internet

[AMK Judaica]

Any website where someone can download (not stream) parshiyot being leined? (Rav Wieder only streams.)

Thanks.

****************
Ari Kinsberg
Brooklyn, New York

[Avi]

I know this doesn't answer your questions, but you can purchase Rav Wieder's CD, and it comes along with various related shiurim. 

https://www.amazon.com/Leining-Master-Entire-Haftaros-Megillos/dp/B000EB4164/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476067041&sr=8-1&keywords=leining+master

Avi

[AMK Judaica]

Avi,

thanks. but i'm asking re. people (or kids I've taught in the past) who often ask me to record an Aliya for them. they're not going to pay $25 for one Aliya.

****************
Ari Kinsberg
Brooklyn, New York

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com <lei...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Avi <klein...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 10:38 PM
To: leining
Subject: [leining] Re: leining on the internet

 

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[Gideon]

the Beverly Hills Chabad just redid their site, which (undoubtedly illegally) contains tikkun scans. Part of the redo was to make the menukad and text-only sides adjacent to each other, which was a pain before. (Used to use this for learning on the bus before I got the pocket-sized Simanim.) They also either added parsha-by-parsha recordings or just made them more visible on the site. My short-URL for this site is http://bit.ly/TIKKUN.

To get the actual mp3 file:
Click on a parsha (e.g. Devarim > Haazinu)

In Chrome, you can then right-click on the audio box and do "save audio as".

If other browsers don't permit this, you can inspect the element using web dev tools (F12 or Ctrl+Shift+I depending on browser) and then get the URL from there.

A quick google search also reveals at least this set https://shearith.org/pray/shabbat-services-schedule/genesis-first-triennial-torah-readings/
which has correlaries (e.g.: /exodus-third-triennial-torah-readings/; or /leviticus-second-triennial-torah-readings/)

On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 10:06:54 PM UTC-4, AMK Judaica (Ari) wrote:

[Simon Montagu]

On 10/10/16 05:06, AMK Judaica wrote:
> Any website where someone can download (not stream) parshiyot being
> leined? (Rav Wieder only streams.)

https://sites.google.com/site/londonsephardiperasha/daniel-halfon-perashah-archive

[Simon Montagu]

On 10/10/16 09:02, Gideon wrote:
> the Beverly Hills Chabad just redid their site, which (undoubtedly
> illegally) contains tikkun scans.

Undoubtedly? I think there's room to be dan lekhaf zechut. Firstly,
maybe they got permission from the publisher of the tikkun? Secondly,
although the tikkun does say "Copyright © by Nachum Y Kornfeld Abraham
B. Walzer All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced,
in any form or by any means" etc. etc. etc., I have my doubts whether
that would stand up in court with respect to the actual text of the
Torah. I have heard that publishers of maps and mathematical tables
introduce mistakes so that the content becomes copyrightable -- I trust
that that isn't the case here!

GHT to all
Simon

[Gideon]

I'm pretty sure you can't scan an entire book and put it online unless it meets age criteria.

The copyright isn't only for the text, it's also for the layout, font, etc. No one has copyright over piyutim text buy Koren uses a smart layout with an attractive font and that is intellectual property. Other publishing houses too, even if not as attractive as Koren.

[Zev Sero]

On 10/10/16 22:49, Gideon wrote:
> I'm pretty sure you can't scan an entire book and put it online unless it meets age criteria.

Sure you can, so long as it isn't copyright.

>
> The copyright isn't only for the text, it's also for the layout, font, etc.

Fonts cannot be copyright, and the layout of a tikkun is very old. The
compilers of this tikkun did not create anything inventive.

> No one has copyright over piyutim text buy Koren uses a smart layout
> with an attractive font and that is intellectual property. Other
> publishing houses too, even if not as attractive as Koren.

If Koren came up with a creative way to lay out a piyut, then it has a
copyright in that piyut laid out in precisely that way. But laying it
out one line at a time is not at all creative, and is not copyright no
matter what notice they put in the cover. The Simanim tikkun is
probably copyright, because of their creative additions such as marking
with a grey background passages that need special attention, and of
course the related footnotes are copyright. But the tikkun reproduced
on the site we're discussing is a stock standard tikkun, laid out just
like every other tikkun, in a manner that is completely obvious. There
is no possible copyright.

[Chaim Gordimer]

I have personal experience with the Copyright Office. They did not let me copyright any aspect of a layout whatsoever, even though a great deal of research was involved in highlighting the peotic structure of certain piyutim.

On 10/10/16 22:49, Gideon wrote:
> I'm pretty sure you can't scan an entire book and put it online unless it meets age criteria.

Sure you can, so long as it isn't copyright.

>
> The copyright isn't only for the text, it's also for the layout, font, etc.

Fonts cannot be copyright, and the layout of a tikkun is very old.  The 
compilers of this tikkun did not create anything inventive.


> No one has copyright over piyutim text buy Koren uses a smart layout
> with an attractive font and that is intellectual property. Other
> publishing houses too, even if not as attractive as Koren.

If Koren came up with a creative way to lay out a piyut, then it has a
copyright in that piyut laid out in precisely that way.  But laying it
out one line at a time is not at all creative, and is not copyright no
matter what notice they put in the cover.  The Simanim tikkun is
probably copyright, because of their creative additions such as marking
with a grey background passages that need special attention, and of
course the related footnotes are copyright.  But the tikkun reproduced
on the site we're discussing is a stock standard tikkun, laid out just
like every other tikkun, in a manner that is completely obvious.  There
is no possible copyright.

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[Zev Sero]

On 10/10/16 23:09, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
> I have personal experience with the Copyright Office. They did not let
> me copyright any aspect of a layout whatsoever, even though a great deal
> of research was involved in highlighting the peotic structure of certain
> piyutim.

Research is irrelevant. By definition the result of research is not
your own creation, and therefore doesn't belong to you. The whole point
of research is to discover facts that already exist, not to make up new
ones! The only copyright that can exist for any research is on how you
explain it; if you do so in your own words, those words are copyright.
If you do it in a creative graphic way, such as with a special layout
that you invented for the purpose, then that would be copyright. But if
you just laid out the results of your research in an obvious way then
why would you expect it to be copyright? What did you create?

[Chaim Gordimer]

It was a newly typeset sefer of Shabbos Piyutim. The structure of the each piyut was highlighted using graphic design, such as indentation or boldface, etc. Obviously, it took lots of research, but we invented a novel way to display it and enhance the meaning of the content. This didn't necessarily work for all piyutim across the board, but it was done in lots of them on an individual basis. 

On 10/10/16 23:09, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
> I have personal experience with the Copyright Office. They did not let
> me copyright any aspect of a layout whatsoever, even though a great deal
> of research was involved in highlighting the peotic structure of certain
> piyutim.

Research is irrelevant.  By definition the result of research is not
your own creation, and therefore doesn't belong to you.  The whole point
of research is to discover facts that already exist, not to make up new
ones!   The only copyright that can exist for any research is on how you
explain it; if you do so in your own words, those words are copyright.
If you do it in a creative graphic way, such as with a special layout
that you invented for the purpose, then that would be copyright.  But if
you just laid out the results of your research in an obvious way then
why would you expect it to be copyright?  What did you create?

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[Zev Sero]

On 10/10/16 23:23, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
> It was a newly typeset sefer of Shabbos Piyutim. The structure of the
> each piyut was highlighted using graphic design, such as indentation or
> boldface, etc. Obviously, it took lots of research, but we invented a
> novel way to display it and enhance the meaning of the content. This
> didn't necessarily work for all piyutim across the board, but it was
> done in lots of them on an individual basis.

Well, both indentation and boldface are very old inventions! Perhaps
what you did really was creative and new, and the copyright examiner
didn't have the background to understand this. But your description
doesn't give me any idea of what you could have done that would deserve
copyright protection.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Zev, there's no reason to be rude.

[Zev Sero]

On 11/10/16 00:38, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
>> On Oct 11, 2016, at 12:01 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>>> On 10/10/16 23:23, Chaim Gordimer wrote:

>>> It was a newly typeset sefer of Shabbos Piyutim. The structure of the
>>> each piyut was highlighted using graphic design, such as indentation or
>>> boldface, etc. Obviously, it took lots of research, but we invented a
>>> novel way to display it and enhance the meaning of the content. This
>>> didn't necessarily work for all piyutim across the board, but it was
>>> done in lots of them on an individual basis.

>> Well, both indentation and boldface are very old inventions! Perhaps
>> what you did really was creative and new, and the copyright examiner
>> didn't have the background to understand this. But your description
>> doesn't give me any idea of what you could have done that would deserve
>> copyright protection.

> Zev, there's no reason to be rude.

Rude?! What rudeness are you perceiving, and why?

[Aryeh Moshen]

ArtScroll is Makpid Gamur and won't even permit someone to copy a couple of pages.  I tried getting their permission for a special occasion.  No such luck.

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Depending on the nature of the special occasion, you didn't necessarily need their permission. I suspect even xeroxing a bunch of copies for one time use at a simcha would be covered by fair use.

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[Zev Sero]

On 11/10/16 05:39, 'Aryeh Moshen' via leining wrote:
> ArtScroll is Makpid Gamur and won't even permit someone to copy a couple
> of pages. I tried getting their permission for a special occasion. No
> such luck.

Their translation and footnotes are, of course, copyright. The text of
the sefer is not, and they have not done anything creative to it to make
it copyright, so they can be makpid all they like but you are free to do
what you like with it.

[Aryeh Moshen]

To Jeremy and Zev

Thanks.  I guess I should have checked with my youngest son who is an intellectual property attorney.

[Chaim Gordimer]

Apparently, they developed their font, which is a variation of Haddassah. 

On 11/10/16 05:39, 'Aryeh Moshen' via leining wrote:
> ArtScroll is Makpid Gamur and won't even permit someone to copy a couple
> of pages.  I tried getting their permission for a special occasion.  No
> such luck.

Their translation and footnotes are, of course, copyright.  The text of
the sefer is not, and they have not done anything creative to it to make
it copyright, so they can be makpid all they like but you are free to do
what you like with it.

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[Simon Montagu]

AIUI, font design per se has no copyright, although a specific
implementation of a font, e.g. a .ttf file on a computer, is copyrightable.

Certainly printing a public domain text in a font that I designed
doesn't give me copyright on the printout, any more than writing a Sefer
Torah gives copyright to the sofer.

> <mailto:leining+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com>.

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

> On Oct 11, 2016, at 8:23 AM, 'Aryeh Moshen' via leining <lei...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks. I guess I should have checked with my youngest son who is an intellectual property attorney.

Similarly, I asked my wife, who's also an IP lawyer. In a nutshell, she said that the copyright wouldn't cover all that much.


Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l++ u+ P++ e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t+ r-
Internet: agw STRUDEL cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7050, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Although in terms of xeroxing something, it doesn't matter how much
the copyright covers. If it covers any of what you xeroxed you could
have a problem.
Jeremy

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[Zev Sero]

On 11/10/16 08:36, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
>>> ArtScroll is Makpid Gamur and won't even permit someone to copy a
>>> couple of pages. I tried getting their permission for a special
>>> occasion. No such luck.

>> Their translation and footnotes are, of course, copyright. The text
>> of the sefer is not, and they have not done anything creative to it
>> to make it copyright

> Apparently, they developed their font, which is a variation of Haddassah.

Fonts are not copyright at all. In principle, *if* the idea of
rendering the sefer in that font was a creative decision that was
not obvious, and that enhances the reader's experience, then that
would be copyright. But this is nothing like that.

[Sruli Shaffren]

Hi Ari,

For my students I use the kolkore.com product. I registered on the site as a teacher, and each of my students had to pay a license fee to use the (web based) product. I record sections (in different styles for the Israeli and American students) and assign it to the students. It's a great product, though the recording process is a little finicky.

For my Skype students, we share screens and I can make nikud and trup appear and disappear as needed. When they need corrections, I can point right to the problem section. It works out quite well; when we're not together the student can review the section I've assigned and optionally click on a word, a phrase, a pasuk, or an aliyah to hear me read it.

I don't make any money on this, despite my plug. I just like the product. If you're at all interested, I'd be happy to demonstrate it for you online at some point.

Sruli
sruli strudel shaffren nekuda com

[dmil...@yahoo.com]

dafyomireview.com, click on Torah reading (middle of page).

On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 10:06:54 PM UTC-4, AMK Judaica (Ari) wrote:

[Aryeh Moshen]

I'm not impressed with their font.  I would actually like someone to devise a better version of the common font, one in which it is easier to tell a Reish from a Dalith and more emphasis on the Beith.  I've worked with Gerim and BTs and many have had a hard time distinguishing one from the other.