GOTCHA!

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

For those who wax nostalgic for Mahpach, I reblogged this piece albeit in a different context - could also fit on the Gabbai List.

Enjoy

NishmaBlog: Schadenfreude III - Correcting Torah Readers

http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/10/schadenfreude-correcting-torah-readers.html

Good Shabbos [GS]
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[marshall...@comcast.net]

I would like to hear from the group on correction criteria.   Specifically, there are three situations where I was taught not to correct (no change in meaning), but where one or two gabbai'im have been correcting me recently, to my minor annoyance.  Specifically:

A) Segolate words, where the segol under the second root letter changes to a qamatz when the word is in the pausal position (always for etnachtah and sof pasuk, occasionally for lesser pauses); e.g., cherev / charev, chesed / chased.

B) BGDKFT letters following an open syllable, where the ba'al koreh fails to drop the dagesh and uses B instead of V, P instead of F, etc.

C) V' instead of OO' as a prefix meaning 'and'.

What is everyone's practice, and what sources can you cite for support?

Todah rabbah, and Shabbat Shalom. 

 -- Marshall

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Marshall
«A) Segolate words, where the segol under the second root letter changes to a qamatz when the word is in the pausal position (always for etnachtah and sof pasuk, occasionally for lesser pauses); e.g., cherev / charev, chesed / chased.

B) BGDKFT letters following an open syllable, where the ba'al koreh fails to drop the dagesh and uses B instead of V, P instead of F, etc.

C) V' instead of OO' as a prefix meaning 'and'.


What is everyone's practice, and what sources can you cite for support?

Todah rabbah, and Shabbat Shalom.  -- Marshall»

Note This is my opinion NOT a pKsaq

I personally would never or rarely correct for A or B

I'm not sure about C what if someone said the converse ushinantem vs. V'shinantem?

Re: A EG if one said kessef instead of kossef, and lained EG a ZQ instead if etnachta, I say no big deal. OTOH If one ran kessef into the next phrase it could be a big deal.

Another kind of A
Tocheil vs. Tochal
Or Achat vs. Echat. If the phrasing was otherwise good I would let it go.

Vayomer and vayomar can be really tricky it can flip-flop the subject and the object, but if mistakingly laining
Vayomer on an etnachta and phrasing properly, I'm not sure...


B it's hard for me to see. A case where it's a "fatal flaw"

Sh Sh

[Sammy Noe]

How about when the "l'cho" is correctly printed as "loch" on a zokef kotton, and everyone is up on their hindlegs belting out "l'och", when the poor BK reads "l'cho"!   That gets my nerves twitching no end, both as a BK and as a still seated member of the audience.   Sammy --- On Fri, 25/6/10, marshall...@comcast.net <marshall...@comcast.net> wrote:

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Marshall
«A) Segolate words, where the segol under the second root letter changes to a qamatz when the word is in the pausal position (always for etnachtah and sof pasuk, occasionally for lesser pauses); e.g., cherev / charev, chesed / chased.

B) BGDKFT letters following an open syllable, where the ba'al koreh fails to drop the dagesh and uses B instead of V, P instead of F, etc.

C) V' instead of OO' as a prefix meaning 'and'.


What is everyone's practice, and what sources can you cite for support?

Todah rabbah, and Shabbat Shalom.  -- Marshall»

Note This is my opinion NOT a pKsaq

I personally would never or rarely correct for A or B

I'm not sure about C what if someone said the converse ushinantem vs. V'shinantem?

Re: A EG if one said kessef instead of kossef, and lained EG a ZQ instead if etnachta, I say no big deal. OTOH If one ran kessef into the next phrase it could be a big deal.

Another kind of A
Tocheil vs. Tochal
Or Achat vs. Echat. If the phrasing was otherwise good I would let it go.

Vayomer and vayomar can be really tricky it can flip-flop the subject and the object, but if mistakingly laining
Vayomer on an etnachta and phrasing properly, I'm not sure...


B it's hard for me to see. A case where it's a "fatal flaw"

Sh Sh

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
«How about when the "l'cho" is correctly printed as "loch" on a zokef kotton, and everyone is up on their hindlegs belting out "l'och", when the poor BK reads "l'cho"»

"Loch Sammy hatzdaqah", or is that l'cho? :-)

Gut Voch

[MG]

Most of us would agree that words that don't change the meaning
shouldn't be corrected (although there are plenty of those, including
the GR"A, who do say that one should be corrected for all mistakes,
even "minor" ones). All of the examples here have been words where
the meaning isn't changed.
To me, the halacha gets interesting with respect to words where a
mistake in fact changes the meaning of a word. It's easy to say this
should be corrected, but there are certainly those who don't require a
correction even in those cases.
See:
1) Tosefos in Masechet Avodah Zarah 22B "Raglah" (go to e-daf.com if
you don't have a Shas in front of you)
2) Tur Hilchos Krias HaTorah, O"Ch 142, quoting the Ba'al HaManhig,
the B"Y and Bach: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&st=&pgnum=236
3) Chayei Adam Clal 31 Os 31: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38644&st=&pgnum=85
4) Mishna Berura and Biur Halacha here http://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=2&SeifID=417
5) Trumas Hadeshen Pesakim 181 here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1835&st=&pgnum=190
6) קריינא דאיגרתא Chelek 1 Siman 138 (no link for this on-line) - the
Steipler was asked about correcting mistakes where the difference
between mileil and milrah change the meaning and allows room for not
correcting
7) R' Yaakov Kaminetsky used to say not to correct the koreh on words
even where mileil/milrah would matter, such as vav hahipuch, because
we find that vav hahipuch gets subjugated to nasog achor (e.g.
v'zavachta pesach, at the end of Re'eh, for example), or gets changed
due to being under an esnachta (e.g. v'achalta v'savata - v'savata
should be milrah but is mileil due to it's coming at an esnachta)
which would imply that the "meaning" isn't changed no matter how the
koreh reads it.
8) I heard in the name of R' Ruevain Feinstein not to correct mapik
heh's.

Personally I try to avoid correcting most mistakes in public.

On Jun 25, 6:27 pm, marshall_schwa...@comcast.net wrote:
> I would like to hear from the group on correction criteria. Specifically, there are three situations where I was taught not to correct (no change in meaning), but where one or two gabbai'im have been correcting me recently, to my minor annoyance. Specifically:
>
> A) Segolate words, where the segol under the second root letter changes to a qamatz when the word is in the pausal position (always for etnachtah and sof pasuk, occasionally for lesser pauses); e.g., cherev / charev, chesed / chased.
>
> B) BGDKFT letters following an open syllable, where the ba'al koreh fails to drop the dagesh and uses B instead of V, P instead of F, etc.
>
> C) V' instead of OO' as a prefix meaning 'and'.
>
> What is everyone's practice, and what sources can you cite for support?
>
> Todah rabbah, and Shabbat Shalom.
>
> -- Marshall
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
> To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:23:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: [leining] GOTCHA!
>
> For those who wax nostalgic for Mahpach, I reblogged this piece albeit in a different context - could also fit on the Gabbai List.
>
> Enjoy
>
> NishmaBlog: Schadenfreude III - Correcting Torah Readers
>

> http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/10/schadenfreude-correcting-torah...

>
> Good Shabbos [GS]
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Shmuel Rabin]

What about v'yihyu - vayihyu? --- On Sat, 26/6/10, MG <markgi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -

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[Aryeh Moshen]

Shabbos Shalom would be fine.

 

If you wanted to add, lcho would be preferable as it is standard Hebrew. 

 

Btw:  Regards to Dr. Symons.  I'm not sure if you received my offline messages.

---

From: Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 6:22:37 AM
Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria

:) to you too.   Actually, perhaps the group can help me?   When I meet someone on Shabbos, I'm never sure whether to greet him with "Shabbos Shloim l'cho", or "loch"?   Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Sunday, 27 June, 2010, 2:08

Sammy «How about when the "l'cho" is correctly printed as "loch" on a zokef kotton, and everyone is up on their hindlegs belting out "l'och", when the poor BK reads "l'cho"» "Loch Sammy hatzdaqah", or is that l'cho?  :-) Gut Voch

RRW Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.

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[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:

> To me, the halacha gets interesting with respect to words where a
> mistake in fact changes the meaning of a word. It's easy to say this
> should be corrected, but there are certainly those who don't require a
> correction even in those cases.

> See:
> 1) Tosefos in Masechet Avodah Zarah 22B "Raglah" (go to e-daf.com if
> you don't have a Shas in front of you)

This is a mistake that doesn't change the meaning (though the CA you
quote in (3) says it does). But in any case, as the CA points out,
this is talking about someone learning in private, not about a public
reading. There's no indication whether the Tosfos would hold the same
about krias hatorah in public with a bracha.

> 2) Tur Hilchos Krias HaTorah, O"Ch 142, quoting the Ba'al HaManhig,

On the contrary, as the Bach notes it appears that the Tur paskens
like the Rambam and the Rosh, not like the BHM.

> the B"Y and Bach: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&st=&pgnum=236

The Bach does indeed pasken this way, but the BY appears very much not
to, but rather to hold that even the BHM is only talking about those
mistakes that don't change the meaning. And in SA he paskens like the
Rambam that one must go back for *every* mistake, even if it doesn't
affect the meaning.

> 3) Chayei Adam Clal 31 Os 31: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38644&st=&pgnum=85

Huh? He clearly paskens that you do have to go back, unless layning is
already over and the Sefer Torah has been put away.

> 4) Mishna Berura and Biur Halacha here http://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=2&SeifID=417

Again, huh? The MB clearly paskens that you do go back, and in the BH he
only bends to the same extent as the CA, to say that if the whole kriah is
already over you don't reopen it. In fact he explicitly criticises the
Derech Hachayim, who holds not that one needn't go back for such mistakes
but that *if* the baal koreh was not made to go back one needn't protest
that decision; the BH says even that is wrong, and one must protest.

> 5) Trumas Hadeshen Pesakim 181 here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1835&st=&pgnum=190

He only deals with mistakes that don't change the meaning.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people’s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Meir BenChayim]

     I think that in havara ashkenazit it should be Shabbas, not Shabbos.  The greeting only makes sense if it's bismichut, a Shabbat of shalom.
 
Meir
 

---

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:22:37 +0000
From: leini...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria

To: lei...@googlegroups.com

:) to you too.   Actually, perhaps the group can help me?   When I meet someone on Shabbos, I'm never sure whether to greet him with "Shabbos Shloim l'cho", or "loch"?   Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Sunday, 27 June, 2010, 2:08

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.

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[MG]

I wasn't leaning toward any one way, I was simply giving mareh mekomos
for people to look up and judge on their own.
Bottom line: there is what to be someich on to not correct even for
mistakes the do change the meaning. The Bach certainly says this.

> > 4) Mishna Berura and Biur Halacha herehttp://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=2&SeifID=417

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> I wasn't leaning toward any one way, I was simply giving mareh mekomos
> for people to look up and judge on their own.

I'm sorry, the way you wrote it was very misleading. I will bet that
at least 90% of readers would understand you to mean that all the
authorities you listed hold that no correction is required. Certainly
at least one reader besides me did so understand.

> Bottom line: there is what to be someich on to not correct even for
> mistakes the do change the meaning. The Bach certainly says this.

Yes, the Bach. Who else?

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
«He spends hours a day at the gemorroh, going the whole range through to lateish Acharoinim; he is passionate about doing Sh'nayim Mikro with full Rashi: anyone not knowing him properly would be justified in thinking that he would be equally passionate in making sure that proper and accurate p'shat is given in his leining.»

I empathise with you

S'phardim and many Yekkes are quite precise in these areas, but most Eastern Ashkenaz feel that dikduk and phrasing are not important. And when it comes to reciting the sh'ma they are unfortunately being m'zalzeil in a d'oraitto!
[Even if they are yotzei it is only d'divad!]

I know the GRA pushed to have the highest levels of responsibility in leining, a level I aspire to but have not yet attained myself [unlike our Chaveir Michael Gutmann who has B"H
Learned to lein better at as younger age :-) ]

Et chat'ai ani mazkir
I failed to follow up on my old resolutions and I will see if I can revive them

There is NO excuse for our schools not teachig this to 10 yer olds. If they grasp at at any early age they will not flounder in their '50's as I do at times!

S'phardim and Teimanim are already doing it now - why not us?

Shavua Tov

[MG]

I'm glad we cleared that up then. I'm not here to pasken or list
every single source.

As I said, the very recent poskim seem to be more lenient in this
matter. R' Y. Kaminestsky did not insist on correcting in cases of
vav hahipuch and mileil/milrah where the meaning was changed, as I
already noted. The Steipler leaves it open and certainly does not say
one must correct even when the meaning changes, please see his words
inside.
I heard similar in the name of R' Eliashiv and R' Chaim Kanievsky.

All I ever said was the matter was more interesting halchically, to
me, then cases where the meaning doesn't change, and that there are
those who are lenient in this matter, which I stand by.
Those of us who don't insist on showing everyone how clever we are at
someone else's expense can be someich on these authorities.
Those who do insist on correcting every mistake that they feel changes
the meaning certainly have more than enough to rely on, and I am
certain they do this with pure intentions, but I have to ask - do
those people also correct the BK on the dagesh chazak, which can
change the meaning when omitted, and occurs frequently?

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG
«do those people also correct the BK on the dagesh chazak, which can change the meaning when omitted, and occurs frequently?»

A STRONG question and to the POINT! :-)

Gut Voch

[Sammy Noe]

Thanks for this, Meir; when I first began to say Shabbos Sholoim- and I am a devout havoras ashkenaz pronouncer - people, equally HA ones, challenged me on the komotz; I said quite the opposite to you, Meir, and that the meaning is a wish of " a peaceful Shabbos": I agree about the s'michus, but place it elsewhere.   Regards   Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, Meir BenChayim <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Sammy Noe]

No, I didn't, please try again.   Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, Aryeh Moshen <aryeh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Sammy Noe]

Your views chime in so much with mine, that I think we could almost be team-mates!   Whenever I tell my wife that I have been speaking about this or that to a young post Barmitzvah man, and that I have been encouraging him to try to strike beyond the standard he'd been taught - no real mean feat, unless I taught him - she behaves exactly like King David's Michal did on seeing him dance with the Aroin Hashem - I'm afraid I don't quite have his talents to respond in the way he did!   However, unless I -  and people like me - chase after any opportunity going, to try to give K'ri'as Hatoiroh a leg up and a higher profile, t'filloh itself will continue to have no real place in shuls, and chazzonus/chazzonim - with all their manifold flaws - will continue to rise.   And that is something we cannot have.   My opinion is that, only when davening becomes as important to a person as if he is actually at his consultant's office, using every argument in his arsenal attempting to extract a loan or better financial terms, can chazzonus/ chazzonim have a valid place in our shuls; and the best way I know of this occurring, is by paying acute attention to the flow of the language in our Siddurim and Machazoirim, and the best way of doing that is by astute study of the trope and equally astute study of Hebrew Grammar, and the only people who can arrange that are the best Ba'alei K'ri'oh - ones this forum can recognise as being the best, not the "hamoin om", who unfortunately, know nothing, and care even less.   Even more unfortunately, I include virtually all the Rabbonim I know/have heard of anywhere in the world in the category of "hamoin om".   I'm sorry if I sound a bit exercised, but I've been a one-man-campaign about this since I left teanagerhood so many decades ago.   Regards

Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>

[AMK Judaica]

r. wieder gave me (very mild) tochecha on shavuot for making some mistakes with dagesh hazak in leining, but
a) this was later in the day and not during leining
b) i approached him first to ask him about dagesh hazak
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot.com
 

 
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 15:47:33 +0000

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[AMK Judaica]

there is NO excuse for our schools not teaching this 3-year-olds.
 
shavuah tov,

ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot.com
 

>

> There is NO excuse for our schools not teachig this to 10 yer olds.
>

> --

---

The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy.

[AMK Judaica]

unless you generally use biblical hebrew for vernacular purposes, i personally would stick with l'cho.
 
there is an intersting entry on shabbat shalom in yitzchak avineri's Yad Halashon dealing with some grammatical issues of the phrase. on chag sameiach:
 
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2006/11/leshon-shabbat-u-lshon-hag-shabbat.html
 
i'm reminded now of when i asked my 11th grade halacha teacher why we say modim anahnu lakh and not lekha. he responded with something to the effect that because god does not corrspond to any human forms, we can refer to him in feminine (or in plural, as in elokim). i now assume that in modim it is simply a pausal form.
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

 

---

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:22:37 +0000
From: leini...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

:) to you too.   Actually, perhaps the group can help me?   When I meet someone on Shabbos, I'm never sure whether to greet him with "Shabbos Shloim l'cho", or "loch"?

Sammy --- On Sun, 27/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correction criteria To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

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[AMK Judaica]

in principle, i personally consider this the most basic type of mistake that should be corrected.
 
the most basic mistake is adding or omitting a letter. by not reading a mapik heh, one is dropping a real consonental value from the word
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

> 8) I heard in the name of R' Ruevain Feinstein not to correct mapik
> heh's.
>

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy

«and the best way I know of this occurring, is by paying acute attention to the flow of the language in our Siddurim and Machazoirim, and the best way of doing that is by astute study of the trope and equally astute study of Hebrew Grammar, and the only people who can arrange that are the best Ba'alei K'ri'oh - ones this forum can recognise as being the best, not the "hamoin om", who unfortunately, know nothing, and care even less.»

Pleasant story

I once davened at a summer resort. Several mispallim marveled at my diction, pronunciation, etc.

One felllow remarked "He davens as if he were laining the torah"

Indeed my "dirty little secret" was that as "baal q'riyah" I had learned some nuances of pronunciation and many more re: phrasing

I'm also on this list to improve my davening diction every bit as much as my leining skills. [This dovetails with my fussy, pedantic demand that all p'suqim in the siddur have the "n'ginot"] v'ein kan m'qomo.

But 'Tis the Shulchan Aruch that demands that a Sha"TZ read Nach to further his familiarity with obscure words. I find this advice. really usefulfor Piyyutim which ironically the M'chabeir actually opposes. But to me this is the nexus between Qallir and this group, namely the mastery of Biblical Hebrew.

Anyway, I still slur some words because even in my speaking patterns I have minor issues. So I have to work even harder at getting a quality job done.

Shalom

[rjhe...@juno.com]

Hi
I am extremely busy and will respond more fully in a few days. We had a long discussion about correction criteria in previous groups.

Basically I posited the (strong) opinion that NO mistake should be corrected including those that correct meanings (unless it is someone just learning to lein who is expected to make mistakes).

Believe it or not this is the view of a rishon (the Bach) who cites a Midrash Rabbah. The aruch hashulchan was so shocked that he dismissed the bach as "he couldn't be serious" BUt I brought the Bais Yosef to show that the Bach was very serious.

Very roughly: The issue here is a Biblical commandment vs a Rabbinic commandment. The biblical commandment is embarassing somebody (and/or) teasing someone (pointing out a mistake which the Rabbinic commandment is the requirement to lein with perfection.

Again I anticipate some reaction but let me JUSTIFY/EXPLAIN this. The Shir Hashirim Rabbi speaks about a person who confused DIGULO ALAY AHAVAH with GIDULO ALAY AHAVA. Another illustration is a person saysing VAYAVTA ETH HASHAM vs VEAHAVTA (certainly a change in meaning)

The point here is that such "slips of the tongue ARE normal in everyday speech" and don't stop us from talking to each other. If a person is so nervous that he is making such mistakes he shouldn't be corrected. To do so would make him more nervous and exaggerate the matter. (The bais yosef seems to create an exception if it is a learning baal koray who is expected to make mistakes).

In passing yesterday while leining I (correctly) said
"Oolay Yi Ka RAY hashem likrathsi." Someone corrected me and said "YiKaReh" There were two responses a) Breuer has YiKaRay and b) EVEN if it was wrong I shouldnt have been corrected (The person came over to the BImah and apologized).

The PURPOSE OF LEINING IS TALMUD TORAH NOT PICKINESS. The learning would be greater if we just left baalay kriah alone.

Russell

____________________________________________________________
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[AMK Judaica]

does anyone have online access to E. Turkel,
Variations in Sephardi and Ashkenazi Liturgy, Pronunciation and Custom,
Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society,
Volume 18, 5-34, 1989. 
 
i skimmde it quickly yesterday. i want to make a point from it as it pertains to corrections criteria, but i would like to see the article again first
 
todah,
ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot

[Zev Sero]

rjhe...@juno.com wrote:

> Believe it or not this is the view of a rishon (the Bach)

Bzzzt. The Bach is *not* a rishon!

> BUt I brought the Bais Yosef to show that the Bach was very serious.

Huh? The BY never saw the Bach!

> The Shir Hashirim Rabbi speaks about a person who confused DIGULO
> ALAY AHAVAH with GIDULO ALAY AHAVA.

Where does it speak about that? Quote the exact phrase, please.

> Another illustration is a person saysing VAYAVTA ETH HASHAM vs
> VEAHAVTA

Chas veshalom! Such a mistake must definitely be corrected, no
matter what.

[AMK Judaica]

RUSSEL:

 
"The biblical commandment is embarassing somebody (and/or) "
 

this was discussed on mahpach.
i don't get embarassed when someone corrects me. moreover, i deserve it if i didn't prepare properly.
 
i can understand if we're talking about kids first starting out to lein. but we're all adults here and should be open to respectful and contructive criticism.
 
one of my criticisms of r. rosenberg's articles on the subject in the lookstein festscrift and RJJ journal of halacha and contemporary society (this is what i referred to in an earlier post) is that i think he should have distinguished between volunteers and "professionals." i really don't see why his minimalist view regarding when to correct should apply to professionals. he is concerned for embarassment, but they are getting paid to do a job and embarassment shouldn't be a concern.

 
"The PURPOSE OF LEINING IS TALMUD TORAH NOT PICKINESS."
 

prof. leiman makes this point in one his lectures. we get so wound up and wait for the opportunity to pounce on the baal kore instead of sitting back to soak in the words of torah.
 
kol tuv,

ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot.com

---

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[avraham and ruth walfish]

 

As I said, the very recent poskim seem to be more lenient in this
matter.  R' Y. Kaminestsky did not insist on correcting in cases of
vav hahipuch and mileil/milrah where the meaning was changed, as I
already noted.  The Steipler leaves it open and certainly does not say
one must correct even when the meaning changes, please see his words
inside.
I heard similar in the name of R' Eliashiv and R' Chaim Kanievsky.

 

I would distinguish between mileil/milra mistakes regarding vav hahipuch and other mileil/milra mistakes. Regarding vav hahipuch - as you cited from R. Kaminetzky - there are many examples (such as nasog ahor) where the masoret itself departs from the norm and uses mileil with a vav hahipuch. However, there are other examples where wrong accent cannot be understood except as a misreading of the word, such as SHAvu instead of shaVU in Bereishit 34:29 or haLA rather than HAla in Yeshayahu 66:8.

 

All I ever said was the matter was more interesting halchically, to
me, then cases where the meaning doesn't change, and that there are
those who are lenient in this matter, which I stand by.
Those of us who don't insist on showing everyone how clever we are at
someone else's expense can be someich on these authorities.
Those who do insist on correcting every mistake that they feel changes
the meaning certainly have more than enough to rely on, and I am
certain they do this with pure intentions, but I have to ask - do
those people also correct the BK on the dagesh chazak, which can
change the meaning when omitted, and occurs frequently?

Here I think it is important to differentiate between distinctions which are preserved in contemporary pronunciation, such as mileil/milra, and distinctions which are not observed by the vast majority of daveners and leiners - this would include dagesh hazak, as well as: shva na/nach, alef/ayin, het/chaf, vav/bet, thaf, etc. All of these could change the meaning in certain places. Personally I try to maintain most of these distinctions when I lein, but in a community in which these distinctions are generally not maintained, I would argue that they could not be construed as changing the meaning. But distinctions which are observed in contemporary pronunciation have the potential to change the meaning for modern-day speakers and hearers, and here it would make sense - depending on variables, such as the abilities and sensitivities of the ba'al kriyah and of the community - to correct meaning-changing mistakes.

 

Avie Walfish

 

 

 

On Jun 27, 10:47 am, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> MG wrote:
> > I wasn't leaning toward any one way, I was simply giving mareh mekomos
> > for people to look up and judge on their own.
>
> I'm sorry, the way you wrote it was very misleading.  I will bet that
> at least 90% of readers would understand you to mean that all the
> authorities you listed hold that no correction is required.  Certainly
> at least one reader besides me did so understand.
>
> > Bottom line: there is what to be someich on to not correct even for
> > mistakes the do change the meaning.  The Bach certainly says this.
>
> Yes, the Bach.  Who else?
>
> --
> Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you

> z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people�s money

>                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

[Nehemiah Klein]

What about ta'am meshareis vs. mafsik, the Mishna Brura seems to say that one should repeat for that.  Given that tomorrow is a Ta'anis, I will tell you that I was once in a minyan where one of our leading poskim, known to be a dikduk expert as well, made the ba'al korei repeat for having said "VAYIKRA, beShem Hashem", rather than "vayikra BESHEM, Hashem"

[MG]

I think this is a distinction without a difference. Same goes for
words where the shva being na or nach would change the meaning, or
words were a dagesh (omission or addition, as the case may be) change
the meaning.
Furthermore, there are examples of cases where "al pi" the mesorah
even without vav hahipuch we change the pronounciation from mileil to
milrah....we had one such example a few weeks ago with the word
"shatu" where the meaning theoretically changes because we pronounce
it milrah but we do it anyway, at least according to the Minchas
Shai. There are other examples.
The reasoning I heard behind not correcting these mistakes is that the
koreh is not koveah the meaning of the word with his particular
reading. The correct meaning exists outside of the koreh and so
there's no need to go correct.
Bottom line: there is room in halacha ranging from correcting every
last minor mistake to not correcting at all: ask your posek.




On Jun 28, 3:41 am, avraham and ruth walfish <rawalf...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > leining+u...@googlegroups.com<leining%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com­>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Sammy Noe]

All I can say is "WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".   May I know who he is/was? --- On Mon, 28/6/10, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

[Aryeh Moshen]

I would read, Vayikra veshem, Hashem

---

From: Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:52:05 AM

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

To me the most lenient position would be

A to require that all consonants are correct - and that could include mappiq. Heh

B that the vowels are not mangled to change the meaning

EG yaaseh in lieu of yei'aseh is not acceptable

OTOH kessef - Kossef is not big deal

As far as phrasing goes, I'm guessing only sof passuq is m'aqeiv.

True that wrong phrasing provides wrong p'shat. I would mitigate this by everyone following inside

Also in the days of a m'turgeman any misleading phrasing would/could be fixed by the m'turgeman

But that is clearly b'di'avad or sha'at hadchaq

The ideal is to raise the awareness of the nuances so that high-level reproduction of taamei miqra etc. is normal, commonplace and expected. This may take 1-2 generations

I would start with the d'oraitto of q'riat sh'ma. If every child can lain and parse that with 99.9% precision - we're halfway home

Shalom and easy fast

[Sammy Noe]

"True that wrong phrasing provides wrong p'shat.  I would mitigate this by everyone following inside"

I could never condone that - a ba'al koi'reh is very similar to a story teller, even a stand up comic - he actually needs to know that people get every word, so that the right effect is achieved: that cannot be done by mangling words, and worse, much worse, phrasing incorrectly, so that no meaning at all is arrived at.   And if someone's following inside and does not realise that the phrasing has changed the meaning, he, as well as the ba'al koireh, needs (re)educating.   Regards   Sammy

--- On Mon, 28/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
 «I could never condone that - a ba'al koi'reh is very similar to a story teller, even a stand up comic - he actually needs to know that people get every word, so that the right effect is achieved: that cannot be done by mangling words, and worse, much worse, phrasing incorrectly, so that no meaning at all is arrived at.»

Fine but it's being condoned regularly already in many circles! I've been to shteebles where this goes on regularly

One year I hard eichah leined in a small shul the leiner butchered the entire q'riah!

I was in serious psychic pain

On the one hand I was upset that anyone had the hutzpah to aggravte me so badly

OTOH I was pleased that I had successfully suffered agony on Tisha b'av and felt "how appropriate!"

So Sammy, you don't condone what's going on. That's fine. BUT I see the ability to be m'lmaeid z'chut w/o sacrificng my ideals either. I guess not everyone concurs

Shalom

[Michael Poppers]

On Jun 27, 3:07 pm, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> RUSSEL:
>
> "The biblical commandment is embarassing somebody (and/or) "
>
> this was discussed on mahpach.
>
> i don't get embarassed when someone corrects me. moreover, i deserve it if i didn't prepare properly.
>
> i can understand if we're talking about kids first starting out to lein. but we're all adults here and should be open to respectful and contructive criticism.
>
> one of my criticisms of r. rosenberg's articles on the subject in the lookstein festscrift and RJJ journal of halacha and contemporary society (this is what i referred to in an earlier post) is that i think he should have distinguished between volunteers and "professionals." i really don't see why his minimalist view regarding when to correct should apply to professionals. he is concerned for embarassment, but they are getting paid to do a job and embarassment shouldn't be a concern.
>

To which I would add that even though I'm a volunteer, I consider
myself a professional (i.e. not just a bal koirei, but a ba'al
q'riyah :)), and I welcome legitimate correction in public and
constructive criticism in private. Does the definition, much less the
understanding, of the term "professional" have to include being paid
for executing one's "profession"? (The Q is rhetorical. I would argue
it does not, and see http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/professional?view=uk
[a.3. and n.2.] and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional
.)

Speaking of getting paid, I recall a poll on the old Yahoo! Leining
group and the answer of one particular listmember (HG) that not only
wasn't he paid but he even paid the shul (because they honored him for
his q'riyah with an aliyah and the gabbai then blessed him with a "Mi
sheBeirach" and asked for a pledge...)!

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

R Michael
«and I welcome legitimate correction in public and
constructive criticism in private.»

My strategy is to find the biggest "m'daqd'qim" and ask them to be gabbai or at least move towards the Bimah so as to correct me quietly with the least disruption

When I" gabbai", I try to correct by "whispering" the correction into the reader's ear, if I can pull it off.

To me It's not only about less embarassment, it's also about better decorum and less "disruptiveness"

Sheyibaneh BhM BB"A

[Mark Symons]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

...a ba'al koi'reh is very similar to a story teller, even a stand up comic - he actually needs to know that people get every word, so that the right effect is achieved: that cannot be done by mangling words, and worse, much worse, phrasing incorrectly, so that no meaning at all is arrived at...

I agree - and this is something I strive for (and an article on Expressionist Leining that I've referred to here has helped inspire me to do) but it seems very difficult to achieve this effect for an audience that doesn't understand the Hebrew ie even if they're using a chumash with translation - which is often the majority of the congregants - which leaves me feeling frustrated.

Mark S

[AMK Judaica]

i saw a teshuvah recently (i have it somewhere on my phone?) from eretz hemda dealing with a baal kore who is lenient with the tune to make the leining more dramatic

 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot.com

 

---

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 06:41:27 +1000

Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

From: msy...@alphalink.com.au
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group.
To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«dealing with a baal kore who is lenient with the tune to make the leining more dramatic 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg»

I'm OK with it so long as it is congruent with P'shat and parsing.

OTOH An interpretation that conflicts with the neginnot would be "wrong" in my book.

Also it should not be used as a shortcut for poor preparation, but a real "PRO" can pull it off the way a Chazzan can embelish nusach when he really gets what he's doing.

EG I vividly recall Michael Gutmann's Dad dramatizing "kol d'mamah dakkah" in unesaneh tokef with a light lilting whisper. What Drama! What interpreation!

I would try to sing "Kol Ra'ash Gadol" fortissimo. Almost shouting...

A sensitive reader could pull off crescendos etc.

[AMK Judaica]

why didn't my own post get sent to my email again?
anyway, i found it (bless the iphone.) the teshuvah is shut be-mar'eh ha-bezek, vol. 6, no. 11 (p. 49). i will try and post it.

 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
blog: http://agmk.blogspot.com

p.s. god bless iphone 
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:13:12 +0000

[Mark Symons]

Ari

I wouldn't mind seeing that - can u send it to me or upload it for the group?

Mark

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:
> To me the most lenient position would be
>
> A to require that all consonants are correct - and that could include mappiq. Heh

The generally accepted position among Ashkenazim (i.e. the Ramo's
position) would seem to follow the BY's interpretation of the Baal
Hamanhig, that one doesn't go back for mistakes that don't change
the meaning. (As opposed to the Bach's interpretation, that one never
goes back for anything.) (The BY himself, having interpreted the BHM
this way, paskens like the Rambam that you have to go back for all
mistakes.) If so, then even a mistake in a consonant is OK, so long
as the meaning remained the same.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Zev Sero:
« If so, then even a mistake in a consonant is OK, so long

as the meaning remained the same.

--

Zev Sero »

I did NOT mean to pasqen for anyone!

I'm just saying the minimum I'm OK with myself is to get the consonants This is my minimum comfort level

Two stories:


2 weeks after my Bar mitzvah I lained Hayyei Sarah. I lained "Ra O Tov" as "Tov O ra"

They kinda mean the same thing but this transposition was noy even minimally acceptable - even to me in retrospect! Because it would mislead the audience re: what's written in the Torah!

If I had lained EG rei'a instead of ra - at least the k'tiv could be the same

Many years later

I read a K'tuba at a wedding. The Bride's name is "Shulamit" I kept reading "Sh'lomit"

In this case, I actually followed the K'tiv because the K'tubah had sh'lomit and I was not thinking when I read and followed the k'tiv. [The wedding was 11 am Sunday morning and I had brain fog!]

Had I been alert my mind might have played trick and I coud have read Shulamit because I knew the bride as "Shuly"

Back to leining. Reading the letters slavishly w/o knowing the niqqud, is IMHO less egregious then messing up any consonants. But I'm not pasqeneing, just relating real-world experience

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:
> I read a K'tuba at a wedding. The Bride's name is "Shulamit" I kept reading "Sh'lomit"
>
> In this case, I actually followed the K'tiv because the K'tubah had sh'lomit and I was not thinking when I read and followed the k'tiv. [The wedding was 11 am Sunday morning and I had brain fog!]
>
> Had I been alert my mind might have played trick and I coud have read Shulamit because I knew the bride as "Shuly"

If her name was really Shulamit, and it was written as Shlomit, then the
ketuba was pasul. Had you noticed the discrepancy you would have been
wrong to read it as Shulamit; instead your duty would have been to point
the discrepancy out to the mesader kidushin, who would either a) inform you
that you were wrong about the name, and it was indeed Shlomit; or b) whip
out a pen and fix it, and get the eidim up to endorse the changes.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Zev
«If her name was really Shulamit, and it was written as Shlomit, then the ketuba was pasul.»

Indeed and I caught that!

«Had you noticed the discrepancy you would have been wrong to read it as Shulamit;»

The idea was I might have otherwise unconsiously
read shulamit. I'm sure many sofrim and leiners miss mistakes in the text. It's human nature to fix things.

Point? Slavishly reading consonants at least reports what the text has. The vowels and neginnot are external

Shalom

[Michael Poppers]

In "[leining] Digest for lei...@googlegroups.com - 25 Messages in 4 Topics," R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> «dealing with a baal kore who is lenient with the tune to make the leining more dramatic kol tuv,ari kinsberg»

> I'm OK with it so long as it is congruent with P'shat and parsing. OTOH An interpretation that conflicts with the neginnot would be "wrong" in my book. Also it should not be used as a shortcut for poor preparation, but a real "PRO" can pull it off the way a Chazzan can embelish nusach when he really gets what he's doing. EG I vividly recall Michael Gutmann's Dad dramatizing "kol d'mamah dakkah" in unesaneh tokef with a light lilting whisper. What Drama! What interpreation! <

As "Michael's Dad" (who is a bit older than me) would undoubtedly testify, he was merely interpreting as he heard Chazzan Frankel a'h' sing the tune during those years he and I were relative youngsters davening at "Breuer's"/KAJ. So long as I have a mind to remember, I'll sing interpretive tunes like that one to myself at the appropriate time(s).... :)

> Sheyibaneh BhM BB"A
RRW <

Amein! All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager

[marshall...@comcast.net]

And sometimes I have been corrected silently:  This past Shabbat, I accidentally added two prefixes (a hey and a vav) that weren't there -- so each time the gabbai gently grabbed my left forearm, and I got the message.

----- Original Message -----
From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 1:35:09 PM
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

R Michael
«and I welcome legitimate correction in public and
constructive criticism in private.»

My strategy is to find the biggest "m'daqd'qim" and ask them to be gabbai or at least move towards the Bimah so as to correct me quietly with the least disruption

When I" gabbai", I try to correct by "whispering" the correction into the reader's ear, if I can pull it off.

To me It's not only about less embarassment, it's also about better decorum and less "disruptiveness"

Sheyibaneh BhM BB"A
RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[Nehemiah Klein]

by the way the Mishna Brura appears to say that a person should repeat for mixing up a meshares and a mafsik.

--

[Sammy Noe]

RRW

"So Sammy, you don't condone what's going on. That's fine.  BUT I see the ability to be m'lmaeid z'chut w/o sacrificng my ideals either.  I guess not everyone concurs"

You may regard me as supersensitive, but I always try, when speaking or writing, to someone, to make sense the first time out.   That's in English.   Why can leining and davening, in this esoteric language called Hebrew, which we know so well and so little, be treated as a similar, respected tool?   One would never speak in English the way most people daven and lein.   I think I am m'lamed z'chus by banging on about it to all and sundry, and hoping some people will realise that I'm not entirely wrong, though may be too passionate and strident.   Giving up is not m'lamed z'chus.

Regards   Sammy       --- On Mon, 28/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Monday, 28 June, 2010, 17:51

Sammy  «I could never condone that - a ba'al koi'reh is very similar to a story teller, even a stand up comic - he actually needs to know that people get every word, so that the right effect is achieved: that cannot be done by mangling words, and worse, much worse, phrasing incorrectly, so that no meaning at all is arrived at.» Fine but it's being condoned regularly already in many circles!  I've been to shteebles where this goes on regularly One year I hard eichah leined in a small shul the leiner butchered the entire q'riah! I was in serious psychic pain On the one hand I was upset that anyone had the hutzpah to aggravte me so badly OTOH I was pleased that I had successfully suffered agony on Tisha b'av and felt "how appropriate!"

Shalom RRW Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

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[Sammy Noe]

Mark   You misunderstand slightly.   I think you're talking about the performer who's doing it for the applause and is busy counting bums on seats.   The best introduction I ever heard by a perfomer was by someone called Lena Martell,  whom very few people in England -  or Scotland, where she came from - can remember, let alone still retain a fondness for: she said " My name is Lena Martell, and I sing songs".   All she wanted was to get things right - if the audience gets it "hacoil revach", if not, she did the best her tremendous abilities allowed her.   I once went backstage to have a chat after a typically wonderful performance, and she saw my kupple, and told me that she is "one eighth Jewish", and then asked me to correct her pronunciation of her Hava Nagila, which was in her programme during that period, though not that evening.   How many ba'alei k'ri'yah anywhere in the world proactively seek to find imporovements, how many ba'alei t'filloh, let alone, chazzonim; worst of all, how many ba'alei batim, who, totally suffused by their hours of learning Gemorreh etc on a daily basis, just cannot see that their time spent extracting p'shat from every word in the gemorreh, Rashi, Toisfes, Rishoinim, Acharoinim,etc could be put to so much better use in finding out what the heck they are saying to their God in shul every morning and evening; and perhaps then they'll have a bit of an educated listen to their ba'al koireh, and try to make sure he gets on to the job a bit better the next time.     If ever that happens, it'll be on the way to Jewtopia for me.   Regards   Sammy --- On Mon, 28/6/10, Mark Symons <msy...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

From: Mark Symons <msy...@alphalink.com.au> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

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[Henry Goodman]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was me. I'm still around and not paid but I do expect to be corrected
if I make a mistake.

Henry Goodman
London NW11
email henry....@virgin.net

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
«Why can leining and davening, in this esoteric language called Hebrew, which we know so well and so little, be treated as a similar, respected tool?»

Sammy
Did you mean
"Why CAN'T leining?"

You said "why CAN leining

Did we understand you anyway?

Sammy after reading your post, I think you made my point. Better than I did! Because readers and listeners "get what you men to say" even despite misspeaking...

Sheyibaneh BhM ..

[Sammy Noe]

RRW   Point made, but before you can say touche, I should tell you that I did not look properly over my note - possibly out of sheer vagueness.   So, as a result of your help, I'll slap myself on the wrist, and tell myself to improve.   What I committed was carelessness, not a refusal to do things properly.   Just BTW, did you mean to misspell the following: Because readers and listeners "get what you men to say" even despite misspeaking..." Regards   Sammy

--- On Tue, 29/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria

To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Tuesday, 29 June, 2010, 15:21

Sammy «Why can leining and davening, in this esoteric language called Hebrew, which we know so well and so little, be treated as a similar, respected tool?» Sammy Did you mean "Why CAN'T leining?" You said "why CAN leining Did we understand you anyway? Sammy after reading your post, I think you made my point. Better than I did!

Sheyibaneh BhM .. RRW Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Just BTW, did you mean to misspell the following: Because readers and listeners "get what you men to say" even despite misspeaking...

"Regards Sammy»

It's actually a mild form of dislexia
I transpose etc.

I also get tongue-tied at times and I cn prepare a sidrah 100% and still have a slip-of-the tongue or get nervous etc.

Even if I master every nuance R Mordecai Breuer knew I rarely lain 100% perfectly, though I can on eg monday-thrusday or short spurts

Sammy you're attcking a straw man

If you read my post, even the part you snipped, I never condoned being sloppy l'chatchila
Only bdiavad.

To wit

«RRW "So Sammy, you don't condone what's going on. That's fine.  BUT I see the ability to be m'lmaeid z'chut w/o sacrificng my ideals either.  I guess not everyone concurs"»

I think one can be passionate. L'chatchilah about leing
And be COMpassionate b'di'avad.

Sammy you seem to say "any condoning without condemning is not OK". That's where we differ

I think the issue is poor education condemning those who know not what they do is a waste of energy.

Sheyibaneh BhM

[Sammy Noe]

"I think the issue is poor education condemning those who know not what they do is a waste of energy."

I wish I were in the position of condemning "those who know not what they do" - that'll be at least a step up from those who refuse to know what they're supposed to do.   If someone's sloppy, like I was yesterday, that's forgiveable (correct spelling?)   And kol hacavod to you in attempting to do the best you can, nobody can ask for more.

Regards   Sammy --- On Tue, 29/6/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Correction criteria To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>

[thanbo]

On Jun 26, 10:08 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sammy
> «How about when the "l'cho" is correctly printed as "loch" on a zokef kotton, and everyone is up on their hindlegs belting out "l'och", when the poor BK reads "l'cho"»
>
> "Loch Sammy hatzdaqah", or is that l'cho?  :-)

"Hagirsa lach, vehat'amim shelach..."