yo'omad/ya'omad

[Jay Braun]

I am creating a new thread here to discuss this topic in more detail:  kamatz before Hataf-kamatz.

None of this discussion, to my knowledge, impacts Ashkenazi pronunciation.

As mentioned by other members of this group, S'pharadim pronounce these kamatzim as long "a", whereas those who choose to use Modern Hebrew pronounce them as short "o".  Long/short does not come out in articulation, so effectively, it is "a" or "o".

If you are wondering which pronunciation to use, ask yourself which of the two aforementioned groups you fall into.  I come from Ashkenazi lineage, and am in the latter group.  (I am aware of the halakhic debate about whether this is appropriate, but that's a different discussion.)

Having said all that, I question the notion that a meteg necessarily indicates that the vowel is long in all cases; I would say that it does in most cases.  For example, in Gen. 8:1, we have the word vaya'aver (patach under the yod, with a meteg).  In 29:18, we have the word vaye'ehav (segol under the aleph, with a meteg).  Are these long vowels?

I think it is cleaner to say that a vowel appearing before its Hataf counterpart is pronounced like that counterpart.  I am not saying that the Hataf-X "causes" the X to be pronounced in the same way; it's more likely that the Hataf vowel is X because its predecessor is X.   But admittedly, there is no way to tell for sure because the m'nakk'dim tended to use the Ashkenazi vowel system.

j

[Meir]

     Jay Braun wrote, "Having said all that, I question the notion that a meteg necessarily indicates that the vowel is long in all cases; I would say that it does in most cases.  For example, in Gen. 8:1, we have the word vaya'aver (patach under the yod, with a meteg).  In 29:18, we have the word vaye'ehav (segol under the aleph, with a meteg).  Are these long vowels?

     As I understand it, the criterion for a secondary accent  is an open syllable with at least one "syllable" between it and the primary accent. (I write "syllable" because it need not be an actual syllable; a chataf and a sheva na count as syllables for this purpose.  The length of the vowel is irrelevant; what counts is that syllable be open.  It is the secondary accent which causes the meteg to be written, in order to denote the accent's presence. There can be two appearances of such a meteg in a single word; e.g., va" ei da" a cha' (Shemot 33:17).

     A meteg may appear for other reasons as well, such as in the words yih-yeh and yich-yeh, where it appears in a closed syllable. 

Meir

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 9:21:51 PM UTC+1, Jay Braun wrote:

>I am creating a new thread here to discuss this topic in more detail:  kamatz before Hataf-kamatz.

<snip>

Chapter verse Reference?

Hataf Qamatz is Oh.  like a Kamatz Katan, (always) and not ever sounded like a Kamatz Gadol

Hataf Patach is like a patach, and Hataf Segol is like a segol.    (Perhaps some may say them quicker, but they're the same sound).

 

>I question the notion that a meteg necessarily indicates that the vowel is long in all cases; 

It does not indicat that the vowel is long in all cases..

>in Gen. 8:1, we have the word vaya'aver (patach under the yod, with a meteg).  In 29:18, we have the word vaye'ehav (segol under the aleph, with a meteg).  Are these long vowels?

No. They are short.

A secondary accent(it's denoted by a meteg), does not make a patach or segol long.  It only has its effect on the Kamatz.

The point with the Kamatz, and the reason why it affects the kamatz, is that rule is that when it's in a closed unaccented syllable, it's Kamatz Katan. Otherwise it's kamatz gadol.  And when you have a letter with Kamatz and no Meteg, followed by a letter with Shva.. Then the syllable is considered to be closed  And when there's no accent at all on teh syllable. no primary or secondary accent.. no accent, then it is closed and unaccented, and thus short.  So that is why the meteg affects the Kamatz.  It does not affect patach or segol, because only follows that rule about closed unaccented syllables.

>I think it is cleaner to say that a vowel appearing before its Hataf counterpart is pronounced like that counterpart.  I am not saying that the Hataf-X "causes" the X to be pronounced in the same way; it's more likely that the Hataf vowel is X because its predecessor is X.   But admittedly, there is no way to tell for sure because the m'nakk'dim tended to use the Ashkenazi vowel system.

Can you give a chapter and verse of what you mean?

 

[Jay Braun]

> Hataf Qamatz is Oh.  like a Kamatz Katan, (always) and not ever sounded like a Kamatz Gadol

Did I say otherwise?  Yes, it is "o" in S'pahrdic and modern Hebrew.   

> chapter and verse

Leviticus 16:10.  Tomorrow's leining.

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 4:00:01 PM UTC+1, Jay Braun wrote:

>I think it is cleaner to say that a vowel appearing before its Hataf counterpart is pronounced like that counterpart.

And you give the example of Leviticus 16:10.  

kamatz with meteg, then hataph kamatz.

I have looked at about 5 examples of letter kamatz then letter hataph kamatz,  and all the examples I looked at have a meteg. Including Lev 16:10  I don't know whether they all do?

But, there's no question that there it's a kamatz gadol  before the hataph kamatz.

You seem to be saying that it'd be "cleaner" to pronounce it like a hataph kamatz.. But you can't just make the rules of how biblical hebrew should be read, based on what you like the sound of.  Or because you find a particular vowel combination to be somewhat of a tongue/throat twister.

[Jay Braun]

> I have looked at about 5 examples of letter kamatz then letter hataph kamatz,  and all the examples I looked at have a meteg. Including Lev 16:10  I don't know whether they all do?

They should all have a meteg.  Meir explained the criteria for meteg quite well.  The neat thing about rules, guided by basic principles, is that they relieve us of having to look at every single case to make an informed generalization.

> But, there's no question that there it's a kamatz gadol  before the hataph kamatz

Really?  Gee, thanks for disabusing me and so many others here of our ignorance in thinking there is disagreement on this issue, and being so naive as to lend credence to both sides of the issue.  How did you arrive at a conclusion expressed with such certainty?

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

Also, while I don't know whether every kamatz preceding a hataph kamatz, has a meteg

But based on what is below in this post, it looks like the kamatz preceding a hataph vowel, will always be in an open syllable, thus kamatz gadol

the book 

http://i.imgur.com/ju7l3jc.png

grammar of biblical hebrew by hyman hurwitz  says that a semi-vowel, e.g. hataph kamatz, hataph patach, hataph segol, never form a syllable but are always pronounced with the following syllable. 

So for example, they won't close the syllable before.. or form a new syllable, or form part of an existing syllable but are just pronounced with the following syllable.

So even if there were no meteg (and I don't know if there is ever no meteg in the case of kamatz followed by hataph kamatz), but even if there were no meteg, it'd still always be a kamatz gadol.

Perhaps you don't disagree with that..  But you just want to pronounce it your own way, but AFAIK, leining isn't meant to be anarchy. (even if nobody notices/says anything).

[Yodan]

In Israeli Pronunciation (and in Ashkenazi Pronunciation that differentiates between the two Kamatz vowels like in Israeli Pronunciation) – it is Yo’omad.

 

In Sephardi Pronunciation – it is Ya’omad.

 

Gmar Hatima Tova!

 

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[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

Jay wrote

> I think it is cleaner to say that a vowel appearing before its Hataf counterpart is pronounced like that counterpart.  I am not saying that the Hataf-X "causes" the X to be pronounced in the same way; it's more likely that the Hataf vowel is X because its predecessor is X.   But admittedly, there is no way to tell for sure because the m'nakk'dim tended to use the Ashkenazi vowel system.

So what do you mean by this?

Lev 16:10

kamatz gadol, then hataph kamatz

you agree with that

And you want to pronounce it differently?  if so, how do you want to pronounce it?  And why?

What would pronouncing a kamatz gadol like a hataph kamatz mean to you?  A hataph kamatz is pronounced like a kamatz katan.  It seems you don't want to pronounce the kamatz gadol like a kamatz katan, that's good. So what do you mean?

When you say "cleaner"  what do you mean?

[Jay Braun]

> When you say "cleaner"  what do you mean?

A clearer explanation.  You might have missed the word "that", as in:  I think it is cleaner to say *that* such and such is the case. 

I was not describing the pronunciation itself as cleaner.  I do not regard either as "cleaner", in the sense of easier to articulate.

j

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

Really?  Gee, thanks for disabusing me and so many others here of our ignorance in thinking there is disagreement on this issue, and being so naive as to lend credence to both sides of the issue.  How did you arrive at a conclusion expressed with such certainty?

I will answer for myself: The classic Sapharadi rules are derived from their original traditions passed down through the generations. The "Modern Israeli" pronunciations are inventions by the Zionist language police, made up by themselves, for reasons that have nothing to do with tradition. They have no authority, save over those whom they have duped into believing them.

GEK 

[Jay Braun]

I will answer for myself: The classic Sapharadi rules are derived from their original traditions passed down through the generations. The "Modern Israeli" pronunciations are inventions by the Zionist language police, made up by themselves, for reasons that have nothing to do with tradition. They have no authority, save over those whom they have duped into believing them.

GEK 

To a certain extent, I shall agree with you today on this day after Yom Kippur.  As I wrote recently, standard Israeli Hebrew is an *imperfect* attempt to reconstruct Sephardic Hebrew, hence the joke that it represents how a bunch of secular Ashkenazis thought Sepharadim spoke. And I agree that this choice was made partly to de-ghettoize Hebrew, hence perceived as anti-religious.

At the same time, there was a serious attempt to establish certain patterns, e.g., vowel patterns, based on scholarly research.  And this research, based on linguistics, led to several determinations, including the notion that kamatz before hataf-kamatz is katan.  It is definitely an open vowel, as are all vowels that have m'tagim.  But the aforementioned scholars agree that it is not a long vowel, and that meteg does not necessarily indicate a long vowel.

I'm going to end here, and not post further on this subject, unless there is a *specific* linguistic question that I can answer (as opposed to "what do you mean" or "why have you abandoned minhag avos").  My last comment:  I do *not* think that the people who disagree with are "wrong". 

Jay

[Avram Herzog]

Gershon,

I always enjoy your productive and instructive posts on this wonderful leining group.  But this is not the first time you've taken a stab at "Zionists" and their Ivrit.  I personally find this type of post beneath the dignity of the listserv.  Especially the day after Yom Kippur, it's an embarrassment. 

Kol Tuv,

Avi Herzog

 

 

On 09/24/15, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom<kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

Really?  Gee, thanks for disabusing me and so many others here of our ignorance in thinking there is disagreement on this issue, and being so naive as to lend credence to both sides of the issue.  How did you arrive at a conclusion expressed with such certainty?

I will answer for myself: The classic Sapharadi rules are derived from their original traditions passed down through the generations. The "Modern Israeli" pronunciations are inventions by the Zionist language police, made up by themselves, for reasons that have nothing to do with tradition. They have no authority, save over those whom they have duped into believing them.

GEK 

--

[Yodan]

GEK, Which part of my post addressing Yo’omad/Ya’omad is FACTUALLY incorrect?

 

NOTE:

 

It seems that you are unaware that Zionism didn’t “invent” what is now called “Israeli Pronunciation”. This pronunciation is based on centuries of scholarly work that included developmental and comparative linguistics.

 

I wanted to ignore yet again your Zionist bashing, but I just can’t – LEMA’AN ZION LO EHESHE (Isaiah 62:1).

 

The discussions in this forum are about topics related to the Biblical text and related topics. This is not a political forum. You would be doing us (and the Jewish people) a big favor if you leave your Zionist bashing out of these discussions. I’m sure that there are other forums in which you can express your views freely to people who hold the same views and will be delighted to hear from you.

 

If this were a moderator-managed forum, your posts that contain Zionist bashing would have been rejected, and eventually you would have to leave this forum. I don’t advocate a “moderator managed group”, but your anti-Zionist bashing is completely out of line.

 

Without Zionism and the State of Israel, the situation of Jews around the world would have been MUCH worse than it is now, and it’s not so wonderful now. The Shoah comes to mind.

 

NOW, Please answer my question: Which part of my post addressing Yo’omad/Ya’omad is FACTUALLY incorrect?

 

~ Rivka

* Proud Zionist

* Served in the IDF (=Israel Defense Forces) not because I had to but because I wanted to contribute to the defense of the State of Israel and the Jewish people.

* Daughter and daughter-in-law of Nazi death camp survivors.

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 5:43 AM
To: leining
Subject: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

--

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 11:29:12 AM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

> GEK, Which part of my post addressing Yo’omad/Ya’omad is FACTUALLY incorrect?

None of it is factually incorrect. The genuine Sapharadi tradition is as you have stated it, and the invented rules are as you have stated them.

> It seems that you are unaware that Zionism didn’t “invent” what is now called “Israeli
> Pronunciation”. This pronunciation is based on centuries of scholarly work that included
> developmental and comparative linguistics.

Masora is not based on "scholarly work". Masora is what has been handed down from ancestors by tradition through the generations.

To adress your further comments (which I am omiting):

I do not bash the Zionists, nor the Zionist State (at the risk of injecting another off-topic political comment: the Zionists seem to be doing an pretty good job of bashing themselves). I am bashing what the Zionists have done to Jewish traditions, to Sapharadic as well as Ashkanazic (the latter having been all but exterminated by their efforts). Sorry if you are so vested in everything they do that you feel personally offended by my remarks.

GEK

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 10:32:52 AM UTC-4, Avi Herzog wrote:

Gershon,

I always enjoy your productive and instructive posts on this wonderful leining group.  But this is not the first time you've taken a stab at "Zionists" and their Ivrit.  I personally find this type of post beneath the dignity of the listserv.  Especially the day after Yom Kippur, it's an embarrassment.

As with my response to Yodan, I am sorry if you are so personally vested in what the (insert whatever name you wish, since you object to "Zionists") have invented that you feel personally insulted when I raise objections. I take personal offense when people, for political reasons, delegitimize my family traditions.

Gershon Eliyahu ben Dovid
proud Ashkanasi (Yekke tohor, both sides, many generations).

[Avram Herzog]

Gershon,

I am absolutely not "personally vested" in what any one or any group has invented.  Nor am I "insulted". My response was not about me.  I'm not sure where my comments, or Rivka's for that matter, left room for you to infer such.  I'll only add that such posts come across, at least to me, as attacks; perhaps unintentional, but attacks just the same.  Either way, Rivka is also correct that the "Zionists" didn't "invent" anything regarding pronunciation, and one pronunciation does not de facto delegitimize another.

KT,
Avi H

 

 

On 09/24/15, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom<kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

[Jay Braun]

> Yekke tohor . . .

Hard to tell if this is a serious proclamation of genealogical purity, or a little self-directed sarcasm.  

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 11:25:16 PM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

> Yekke tohor . . .

Hard to tell if this is a serious proclamation of genealogical purity, or a little self-directed sarcasm.  

It is merely an explanation of why I am as personally vested in maintaining my ancestral traditions as others here are in promoting the (forbidden word omitted) invented pronunciations. And why I take as much personal affront at denying those traditions as others take when the (forbidden word) inventions are criticised.

GEK
whishing joyful festival for all

[Jay Braun]

It is merely an explanation of why I am as personally vested in maintaining my ancestral traditions as others here are in promoting the (forbidden word omitted) invented pronunciations. And why I take as much personal affront at denying those traditions as others take when the (forbidden word) inventions are criticised.

No one here has ever promoted abandonment of ancestral traditions in favor of the Hebrew of the State of Israel or denied the validity of maintaining minhag avos.  But we are entitled to explain the vowel system and other aspects of that dialect in this forum.  You, on the other hand, belittle the very notion of explaining the Hebrew of the State of Israel in a leining forum because its very use for leining or davening is an abomination.  

I searched for the term "Yekke Tohor/Tahor" on-line, and found several hits.  All of them were from you.  But you used to spell it Tahor.  Clearly, your negative feelings toward the use of Hebrew of the State of Israel in a ritual setting has driven you !davka! to change your transliteration.  

Genealogical purity is way overrated, by the way.  It increases the likelihood of genetic disorders, rachmana litzlan. But go ahead and enjoy your Yekke Pride Parade down Bennett Avenue.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 11:13:22 AM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

> I searched for the term "Yekke Tohor/Tahor" on-line, and found several hits.
>  All of them were from you.  But you used to spell it Tahor.  Clearly, your
> negative feelings toward the use of Hebrew of the State of Israel in a ritual
> setting has driven you !davka! to change your transliteration. 

to-us l'olom chozeir.

> Genealogical purity is way overrated, by the way.  It increases the likelihood
> of genetic disorders, rachmana litzlan. But go ahead and enjoy your Yekke
> Pride Parade down Bennett Avenue.

My pride is not in genetic purity, but in purity of traditions maintained down through the generations. FWIW, I live on the UWS, a good three miles south of Bennet Avenue.

GEK

[Jay Braun]

> FWIW, I live on the UWS . . .

I think I knew that.  But it just wouldn't be the same on Central Park West. :--)

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Certainly not today!

On Sep 25, 2015, at 12:09 PM, Jay Braun <lyng...@gmail.com> wrote:

> FWIW, I live on the UWS . . .

I think I knew that.  But it just wouldn't be the same on Central Park West. :--)

--

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

Joshua Jacobson's book "Chanting the Hebrew Bible" gives a special tune for chanting the Torah blessings on the Yamim Noraim. This tune is based on the trope tune for the Yamim Noraim.

I've never heard it actually used, but my Yamim Noraim experience is limited. Do any of you davven in shuls that use this tune?

שבת שלום, חג שמח

PS: I'm Yekke on my father's side. The main tradition I've derived from same is the inability to show up late for anything. I've managed to pass this on to my older son. As a result, we spend a lot of time waiting for other people to show up.

Art Werschulz
a...@comcast.net

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I have heard it many times, although I can't say whether it is the
same as Jacobson's, as I'm not musically sophisticated enough to tell.
I can say, however, that it's very helpful to the airport kriah, is it
helps prevent starting leining with the usual trup. At least, it helps
me.

Jeremy

[Zev Sero]

On 09/25/2015 12:21 PM, Art Werschulz wrote:
> Joshua Jacobson's book "Chanting the Hebrew Bible" gives a special
> tune for chanting the Torah blessings on the Yamim Noraim. This
> tune is based on the trope tune for the Yamim Noraim.
>
> I've never heard it actually used, but my Yamim Noraim experience is
> limited. Do any of you davven in shuls that use this tune?

Yes. In my experience it's used for the yomtov aliyos, and for the
call-ups, mi-sheberachs, and the kaddish that belongs to the first
sefer, but since maftir is read in the normal trop, so are its brachos,
call-up, and mi-sheberachs.

--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams

[Aryeh Moshen]

Yes.  Although in many Jecki Shuls the tune is limited to the main Torah Readings and not used for Minchah of Jom Kippur or Maftir. 

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[Yodan]

I’m more interested in the actions Jews take to benefit the Jewish people and humankind than in their (supposed?) genetic makeup, ancestry, or racial/ethnic purity.

 

Moadim LeSimha!

 

---

--

[Ernest Mandel]

I daven in Josh jacobson's shul in Newton, ma where I am gabbai. When we send out yamim noraim Aliyah notifications we include a link on our website where Josh has recorded an MP3 of the melody so anyone who wants to review/learn it can. Aside from that, the shuls of my youth always used this melody which I learned from my father using it when he received aliyot on YN.

Shabbat shalom and chag sameach!

Ernest

Link: http://shaarei.org/resources/20120830a

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 12:21 PM, Art Werschulz <a...@comcast.net> wrote:
>

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Yup, that's the one I know.
Jeremy

[Ernest Mandel]

While on the topic, note that in Josh jacobson's book, one of the examples for the YN trop comes from the maftir. We use YN trop for maftir as well and that tune for all call ups, misheberach, and some baalei Keriah (Josh Jacobson included) use it for Kaddish as well. Additionally, when Josh leads musaf in YN, he recites the korbanot in chazarat hashatz to the YN trop.

Separately, shuls I went to as a kid and young adult also used YN trop for maftir. So I wouldn't say that regular trop is universal for maftir at all. As for mincha I too have only heard it in regular trop....

Finally, I recall using YN trop for simchat Torah as well as a youth and young adult though at our shul we do not. Anyone else recall or have a minhag to use YN trop for simchat Torah?

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.

[Ari]

I use yn trip for maftir and would for berakhot if I were to get an Aliyah (in my experience those who know it use it for aliyot, those who don't, don't). I used to use it for Kaddish, but a got lazy after a gap of not leaning YN for a few years.

(Jeremy, starting out with "amen" in yn tune keeps me on track)

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Give a child the best birthday present ever . . . the ability to live to celebrate yet another birthday. Visit https://www.dkmsamericas.org/register to register as a bone marrow donor.

[Avram Herzog]

Hi,

I personally use the Y"N tune for an aliyah, and I was gabbai on day 1 of R"H this year and used it for the gabba'ut too.

Shabbat Shalom,

Avi 

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Ernest Mandel <eima...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Finally, I recall using YN trop for simchat Torah as well as a youth and young adult though at our shul we do not. Anyone else recall or have a minhag to use YN trop for simchat Torah?

It is a Common minhag.

[Zev Sero]

On 09/25/2015 01:43 PM, Ari wrote:
> I use yn trip for maftir and would for berakhot if I were to get an
> Aliyah (in my experience those who know it use it for aliyot, those
> who don't, don't). I used to use it for Kaddish, but a got lazy after
> a gap of not leaning YN for a few years.

I usually get one of the Yisrael aliyot on YK, and therefore use the
YN tune for the brochos. This year I got maftir, and therefore didn't.
I never say the kaddish, because there's someone who has yortzeit and
we give it to him.

--
Zev Sero Gemar Tov
z...@sero.name

[Shields, Meyer]

GEK:  My pride is not in genetic purity, but in purity of traditions maintained down through the generations.

 

Me: For those interested, in chapter 9, verse 23, Yirmiyahu provides a helpful list of appropriate sources of pride.

 

 

Meyer Shields, FCAS
Managing Director - Equity Research, Property/Casualty Insurance | Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, Inc.
Direct:  +1.443.224.1331| Mobile:  +1.443.221.9122
E-mail:  mshields@kbw.com | www.kbw.com

............................................................................
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[Yodan]

GEK wrote: My pride is not in genetic purity, but in purity of traditions maintained down through the generations. FWIW, I live on the UWS, a good three miles south of Bennet Avenue.

Yodan:

 

There are no pure traditions. Every tradition started somewhere at some point in time and was influenced by other traditions along the way and keeps evolving. This is true for many things we believe are traditions, including Hebrew pronunciation.

 

It is worth noting that none of us is speaking Hebrew the way Avraham & Sara or Moshe or even David Hamelekh spoke. Even the Tiberian Masoretes didn’t speak Hebrew in the way their ancestors spoke. In fact, other Jews during that era spoke in different dialects.

 

Languages evolve. Jewish law evolved. Rituals evolved. Everything evolves.

 

How about allowing this forum to focus on productive learning and teaching rather than using sarcasm (not funny, not witty), politics, negativity towards others, and false accusations (about other feeling insulted – don’t tell others what they are feeling), wasting our precious time.

 

Flash News:

 

In a few generations, everyone will be using what is now called Israeli Pronunciation. It makes sense because it combines elements from several pronunciations, it is based on both tradition and scholarly work, it promotes unity in Am Israel, and it allows everyone to understand Torah reading and prayer. The concept of using a different Hebrew for Torah reading and prayer than is the spoken Hebrew is an “invention” of recent generations, based on the fact that in previous generations people used Hebrew for prayer etc. (sometimes without understanding) and another Jewish language – Yiddish, Ladino, Jewish Arabic, etc. – for everyday speaking. This is changing. Now the other Jewish language is Hebrew! Not many speak Yiddish and even fewer speak other Jewish languages.

 

Furthermore, IMO we are supposed to pray and read Torah in the same way we are speaking – so that we understand what we are reading and prayer and everyone else understands too. Israeli Pronunciation achieves this.

 

Moadim LeSimha,

 

~ Rivka (a.k.a. Yodan)

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 8:52 AM
To: leining
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 11:13:22 AM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

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[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:30:15 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

 

Yodan/Rivka i'm very interested in your book about Ahs and Ohs, even though I understand it might be largely modern hebrew rather than sephardi hebrew.. Do you have any copies?  I've noticed your website has spoken of a new one coming out for many years now.  I could email you re that..

>In a few generations, everyone will be using what is now called Israeli Pronunciation. 

No way.  

 Not every Jew is a liberal/reform/non-O Jew, and Orthodox Jews aren't going to become liberal in some generations.  

Most cling to tradition. 

Some modern orthodox might be willing to abandon minhag for modern hebrew, but rarely or never the seriously religious. 

I know some  that are modern orthodox and religious and logical and might lein in modern hebrew, but that is because they aren't fluent in ashkenazi hebrew that their parents use, and they blame their school.

I am in the diaspora.

Some of my friends learnt modern hebrew in school, but their children are in school learning ashkenazi hebrew.   (unfortunately they don't learn modern hebrew).

A rabbi friend learnt modern hebrew in school, prior to becoming a rabbi, but when he became more religious, he switched to ashkenazi hebrew. He is a smart guy and there's no question that if he was in Israel he'd be able to do either pronunciation.  He'd talk to Israelis in modern hebrew pronunciation  .

>It makes sense because it combines elements from several pronunciations, it is based on both tradition and scholarly work, 

It's pretty bad at it..   Many point out that it combines the worst of sephardi and ashkenazi pronunciation.   

Sephardi Hebrew have the consonants preserved better..   Chet, Ayin, 

Ashkenazim as some have pointed out, have a vowel system closer to the tiberian mesorites than sephardim..  And with the exception of the variety of cholam vowels.. if we take just the Oh cholam.. We see the kamatz and cholam are the same as the Jews of Yemen.. who are often considered to have preserved the  hebrew very well.

There is a small movement of religious Jews  that seek to speak hebrew as close as possible to as it was spoken, their investigations take them a mile from modern hebrew pronunciaton.

They often look to the Saadya Gaon who apparently said Hebrew consonants are similar to Arabic consonants with some exceptions.. Like no J in hebrew.

Ancient Hebrew Alphabet PRONUNCIATION

Mikhael Elijah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7RIAPosxEI

Proper Pronunciation of the Hebrew Alphabet: Beginning with Consonants (Qoph through Taw)

Tora Nation Machon Shilo   (Rabbi Dawidh Bar Hayyim)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y55a22iMu4w

https://archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation    (a student of rabbi bar hayyim, talking about hebrew pronunciation)

It is a tiny movement that are purists like that, trying to go back to how best we can determine hebrew was pronounced.. But if expecting people to change then it makes a better case to be suggesting that.... but even that isn't moving many religious jews to change.

>it promotes unity in Am Israel, and it allows everyone to understand Torah reading and prayer. The concept of using a different Hebrew for Torah reading and prayer than is the spoken Hebrew is an “invention” of recent generations, based on the fact that in previous generations people used Hebrew for prayer etc. (sometimes without understanding) and another Jewish language – Yiddish, Ladino, Jewish Arabic, etc. – for everyday speaking. This is changing. Now the other Jewish language is Hebrew! Not many speak Yiddish and even fewer speak other Jewish languages.

 

>Furthermore, IMO we are supposed to pray and read Torah in the same way we are speaking – so that we understand what we are reading and prayer and everyone else understands too. Israeli Pronunciation achieves this.

This level of unity isn't happening and isn't going to happen any time soon, definitely not in a few generations. Whether it is changing to modern  hebrew, or to a more correct pronunciation of hebrew.

Religious Jews aren't even going to abandon their minhag to correct their pronunciation of consonants.. For example,  Halachically, the Daled in the shema (shema yisrael adoshem elokainu adoshem echad/echathhhhh)  is meant to be elongated.  A very small number of Jews like Rabbi Dawidh Bar Hayyim will say that the daled with no dot is pronounced like TH in THe.   Others just don't really elongate it properly.. They shout Duh at the end of Echad, or say nd, or just say it like normal .   

So if religious Jews aren't even willing to change to a more purist pronunciation of hebrew... they're certainly not going to change to a modern pick and mix pronunciation of it, that modern hebrew is, that has no regard to hebrew as "lashon hakodesh". That loses the distinctions of the consonants that many Jews in the middle east preserved.   

How to pronounce hebrew, is as important to seriously religious Jews, as their religion is.

And even if you brought Moshe Rabbainu back, and he said how hebrew is to be pronounced.. i'm sure many religious Jews (to the frustration of purists like rabbi dawidh bar hayyim), would point to the doctrine that we follow the sages that exist in our times. And the idea that if we are told to do something wrong we do it wrong.. Like Rashi commenting on that pasuk in devarim..about following the judges of our time, says that if the rabbis say left is right and right is left.. or black is white and white is black, we follow them.

[Yodan]

Shalom Shmuel and Hag Same’ah!

 

I’ll respond to the points you raised later, probably after Hag, but wanted you (and everyone) to know that I very much appreciate your interest in my book (more on this after Hag) and the points you made re Hebrew pronunciation and will respond to a few of them.

 

We don’t know who’s right, but all we have to do is live long enough to see what happens. J

 

I’m not sure if betting is “Kosher”, but I’m willing to bet that Hebrew pronunciation in Torah reading and prayer will evolve in the way I predict. And I’m willing to live long enough to see this happen. J

 

Seriously, the first serious step in this direction – Siddur Koren with introduction, translations and commentary (which I take as an endorsement) of Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, former chief rabbi of Great Britain. This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol.

 

BTW, Reform and Conservative Siddurim implemented these changed years (actually decades) ago. I know that this is not the type of “endorsement” that will make the idea of classifying the Kamatz vowels according to modern Hebrew more HAVIV and appealing to many folks here, and may actually reinforce the objection, but it’s an interesting point nevertheless.

 

One thing I know for sure: Some (most?) boys who study in Hebrew school in our area and do Leining or leading any of the prayers in our modern-Orthodox Shul pronounce EVERY kamatz AH! Not AW, and not AH/OH depending on the Kamatz, but AH. So it’s GAVHEI, KADSHEKHA, TZAHARAYIM, and other such beauties. To this I say OY! My ears are hurting!

 

Maybe it’s something to discuss in our Sukkas, but only if it doesn’t cause ill feelings!

 

In the meantime, Moadim LeSimha to all!

 

~ Rivka (a.k.a.Yodan)

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shmuel.fr...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 7:12 AM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:30:15 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

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[Ernest Mandel]

On a positive note though, from what I have seen of the Tal Am curriculum at least through 2nd grade (have a 1st and 3rd grader), kamatzim are differentiated by color so maybe if we train them young.....

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.

[Jay Braun]

This is directed to the gentleman who refers to himself as the "Non-Moderator" of this group:

Are you going to step in now, in response to someone who posts that people who use Modern Hebrew in ritual settings are "not seriously religious"?  Or that they choose Modern Hebrew because they are not fluent in their ancestral dialect (I am, and I use it when I know that the minyan prefers it.  I can switch on a dime.) 

Or are you going to wait for someone else to respond, as I just have, and then declare the "dual" (I think you meant "duel") a draw?

Several of the members of this group believe that I have "abandoned" the pronunciation of the Carpathian-region Jewish community into which my father, ob"m, was born.  So, let me tell you about my father.

At the outset of World War II, at the age of 19, my father fled Europe for America.  His parents and half of his siblings were subsequently murdered by the Nazis.  As soon as the USA was drawn into the war, my father enlisted in the US Army, and fought the Nazis in North Africa and Italy.

He, along with my mother, decided to send my brother and me to day schools where we would learn Ivrit.  It was his decision that his children would grow up in a community that promoted the use of the Modern Hebrew in everyday life and in the shul.  

Was this decision my father's to make?  I say yes.  And not a single one of you "language police" (who ironically call *us* the Zionist Language Police) is entitled to an opinion on this.

Way to go, Dad.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Of course I meant duel, and no. This is an unmoderated group and it relies on user discretion to avoid ad hominem attacks, which are never appropriate. 

After a 2 post back. And forth where the content was overwhelmed by the non-content thought it appropriate to send a "snap out of it" post to all involved as I saw no way of that thread progressing in a productive manner. 

But no, I have neither the time, energy or inclination to comment on every ad hominem comment. 

But FWIW, I do not believe that it is ever to appropriate to make inferences, let alone, comments about the frumkeit of people you do not know, here or elsewhere. 

Jeremy

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[AMK Judaica]

a few incarnations ago this was a fully moderated group. that didn't work out too well in the end.

**********

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. Save a life.

 

---

From: jr...@nyu.edu
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:42:03 -0400

Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Avram Herzog]

Hi,

While Tal Am distinguishes kamatz rachav and katan by color as Ernest mentioned, the product is a travesty when it comes to d'geishim.  (Both Ernest and I are referring to the printed materials to be read, not how it educates students).

Mo'adim L'simchah,

Avi H 

 

 

On 09/30/15, Ernest Mandel<eima...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

On a positive note though, from what I have seen of the Tal Am curriculum at least through 2nd grade (have a 1st and 3rd grader), kamatzim are differentiated by color so maybe if we train them young.....

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.

On Sep 30, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Yodan <yo...@yodanpublishing.com> wrote:

Shalom Shmuel and Hag Same’ah!

 

I’ll respond to the points youraised later, probably after Hag, but wanted you (and everyone) to know that Ivery much appreciate your interest in my book (more on this after Hag) and the pointsyou made re Hebrew pronunciation and will respond to a few of them.

 

We don’t know who’s right, butall we have to do is live long enough to see what happens. J

 

I’m not sure if betting is“Kosher”, but I’m willing to bet that Hebrew pronunciation inTorah reading and prayer will evolve in the way I predict. And I’mwilling to live long enough to see this happen. J

 

Seriously, the first serious step in thisdirection – Siddur Koren with introduction, translations and commentary(which I take as an endorsement) of Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, former chiefrabbi of Great Britain.This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of theKamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol.

 

BTW, Reform and Conservative Siddurimimplemented these changed years (actually decades) ago. I know that this is notthe type of “endorsement” that will make the idea of classifyingthe Kamatz vowels according to modern Hebrew more HAVIV and appealing tomany folks here, and may actually reinforce the objection, but it’s aninteresting point nevertheless.

 

One thing I know for sure: Some (most?)boys who study in Hebrew school in our area and do Leining or leading any ofthe prayers in our modern-Orthodox Shul pronounce EVERY kamatz AH! Not AW, andnot AH/OH depending on the Kamatz, but AH. So it’s GAVHEI, KADSHEKHA,TZAHARAYIM, and other such beauties. To this I say OY! My ears are hurting!

 

Maybe it’s something to discuss inour Sukkas, but only if it doesn’t cause ill feelings!

 

In the meantime, Moadim LeSimha to all!

 

~ Rivka (a.k.a.Yodan)

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shmuel.fr...@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 30,2015 7:12 AM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com

Subject: Re: [leining] Re:yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:30:15 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

 

 

 

Yodan/Rivka i'm very interested in yourbook about Ahs and Ohs, even though I understand it might be largely modernhebrew rather than sephardi hebrew.. Do you have any copies?  I've noticedyour website has spoken of a new one coming out for many years now.  Icould email you re that..

 

>In a few generations, everyone will beusing what is now called Israeli Pronunciation. 

 

No way.  

 

 Not every Jew is aliberal/reform/non-O Jew, and Orthodox Jews aren't going to become liberal insome generations.  

 

Most cling to tradition. 

 

Some modern orthodox might be willing toabandon minhag for modern hebrew, but rarely or never the seriouslyreligious. 

 

I know some  that are modern orthodoxand religious and logical and might lein in modern hebrew, but that is becausethey aren't fluent in ashkenazi hebrew that their parents use, and they blametheir school.

 

I am in the diaspora.

 

Some of my friends learnt modern hebrew inschool, but their children are in school learning ashkenazi hebrew.  (unfortunately they don't learn modern hebrew).

 

 

A rabbi friend learnt modern hebrew inschool, prior to becoming a rabbi, but when he became more religious, heswitched to ashkenazi hebrew. He is a smart guy and there's no question that ifhe was in Israelhe'd be able to do either pronunciation.  He'd talk to Israelis in modernhebrew pronunciation  .

 

 

>It makes sense because it combineselements from several pronunciations, it is based on both tradition andscholarly work, 

 

It's pretty bad at it..   Many pointout that it combines the worst of sephardi and ashkenazi pronunciation.  

 

Sephardi Hebrew have the consonantspreserved better..   Chet, Ayin, 

 

Ashkenazim as some have pointed out, havea vowel system closer to the tiberian mesorites than sephardim..  And withthe exception of the variety of cholam vowels.. if we take just the Oh cholam..We see the kamatz and cholam are the same as the Jews of Yemen.. who areoften considered to have preserved the  hebrew very well.

 

There is a small movement of religiousJews  that seek to speak hebrew as close as possible to as it was spoken,their investigations take them a mile from modern hebrew pronunciaton.

 

They often look to the Saadya Gaon whoapparently said Hebrew consonants are similar to Arabic consonants with someexceptions.. Like no J in hebrew.

 

Ancient Hebrew Alphabet PRONUNCIATION

Mikhael Elijah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7RIAPosxEI

 

Proper Pronunciation of the HebrewAlphabet: Beginning with Consonants (Qoph through Taw)

Tora Nation Machon Shilo   (RabbiDawidh Bar Hayyim)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y55a22iMu4w

 

https://archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation   (a student of rabbi bar hayyim, talking about hebrewpronunciation)

 

 

It is a tiny movement that are purists like that, trying to go back tohow best we can determine hebrew was pronounced.. But if expecting people tochange then it makes a better case to be suggesting that.... but even thatisn't moving many religious jews to change.

 

 

>it promotes unity in Am Israel, and itallows everyone to understand Torah reading and prayer. The concept of using adifferent Hebrew for Torah reading and prayer than is the spoken Hebrew is an“invention” of recent generations, based on the fact that inprevious generations people used Hebrew for prayer etc. (sometimes withoutunderstanding) and another Jewish language – Yiddish, Ladino, JewishArabic, etc. – for everyday speaking. This is changing. Now the otherJewish language is Hebrew! Not many speak Yiddish and even fewer speak otherJewish languages.

 

>Furthermore, IMO we are supposed topray and read Torah in the same way we are speaking – so that weunderstand what we are reading and prayer and everyone else understands too.Israeli Pronunciation achieves this.

 

This level of unity isn't happening and isn't going to happen any timesoon, definitely not in a few generations. Whether it is changing to modern hebrew, or to a more correct pronunciation of hebrew.

 

Religious Jews aren't even going to abandon their minhag to correcttheir pronunciation of consonants.. For example,  Halachically, the Daledin the shema (shema yisrael adoshem elokainu adoshem echad/echathhhhh)  ismeant to be elongated.  A very small number of Jews like Rabbi Dawidh BarHayyim will say that the daled with no dot is pronounced like TH in THe.  Others just don't really elongate it properly.. They shout Duh at the end ofEchad, or say nd, or just say it like normal .   

 

So if religious Jews aren't even willing to change to a more puristpronunciation of hebrew... they're certainly not going to change to a modernpick and mix pronunciation of it, that modern hebrew is, that has no regard tohebrew as "lashon hakodesh". That loses the distinctions of theconsonants that many Jews in the middle east preserved.   

 

How to pronounce hebrew, is as important to seriously religious Jews,as their religion is.

 

And even if you brought Moshe Rabbainu back, and he said how hebrew isto be pronounced.. i'm sure many religious Jews (to the frustration of puristslike rabbi dawidh bar hayyim), would point to the doctrine that we follow the sagesthat exist in our times. And the idea that if we are told to do something wrongwe do it wrong.. Like Rashi commenting on that pasuk in devarim..aboutfollowing the judges of our time, says that if the rabbis say left is right andright is left.. or black is white and white is black, we follow them.

 

 

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[Jay Braun]

Thank you, Jeremy.  From my years of participation in this group, I know you to be a true mentch.

I was going to respond to Rivka's vision with a similar assessment to Shmuel's, due to the attitudes of many in the Orthodox community.  I thought it might be incendiary to post that opinion, but now that it has been illustrated, I concur that there will always be a segment of Orthodoxy -- a growing segment -- that will, in Shmuel's words, cling to tradition.

In my neighborhood, there is a very successful shul that was originally a break-away "to the right" from the shul that, long ago, broke away "to the right", from my shul (so it's 2 break-aways "to the right"; at least one other large shul was revived some years ago by a break-away "to the left").  They are now in the midst of constructing a brand new building around the corner from my house, and I look forward for attending an occasional Kabbolas Shabbos there. I expressed this to a friend, who said, "You know, they would never let you lein there.  They only allow Ashkenazis."  To which I responded:  "No problem; I can lein Ashkenazis."  My friend thought for a moment, then said, "I'm not sure.  If someone heard that you leined there, they might think that they allowed someone to lein in Ivrit."  That's how strong the aversion has become.  Oh well.

j

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

It, is it ever. And malei/chaser, wven by akademia standards. But...you need to keep in mind it's pedagogical purpose, which is not to teach precise reading of tanach. It is to lead to fluency in modern Hebrew, and when it comes to reading, that means texts without nikkud using modern orthography. The nikkud in their texts is only a tool for that purpose. For that purpose, kg/kk distinction is relevant, a dagesh in any letter other that פ or ב not. 

(I would have saved myself a huge amount of aggravation when my oldest was in 1st grade if I had realized this earlier. 

)

Jeremy

[AMK Judaica]

jay
 
I once found myself in a boro park shtiebel, second day of pesach. there was no baal kore. I hesitated to offer my services, not to wanting to put them in an uncomfortable position for a number of reasons, including that I don't lein ashkenazis (though now I think could reasonably well if I needed to). finally I figured i'll leave it up to them and approached the rav. I told him I can lein. he said "really?" I said yes, but not with havara ashakenazis. he said, "what's the difference, it's the same torah." and so I leined. I was there again a few months later. as they were taking out the torah the gabbai pointed to me and beckoned me up to lein. a few months later he leined himself, but asked me to stand next to him.
 
so you never know.

**********
Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. Save a life.

 

---

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:49:19 -0700
From: lyng...@gmail.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 12:49:19 PM UTC-4, Jay Braun wrote:

Thank you, Jeremy.  From my years of participation in this group, I know you to be a true mentch.

I was going to respond to Rivka's vision with a similar assessment to Shmuel's, due to the attitudes of many in the Orthodox community.  I thought it might be incendiary to post that opinion, but now that it has been illustrated, I concur that there will always be a segment of Orthodoxy -- a growing segment -- that will, in Shmuel's words, cling to tradition.

Not entirely. As you may know, half or European Ashkanasic Jewry once pronounced the shooruk/kybbootz like a cerik (the current festival being called seekess, the booth in which we eat called a Seekeh, and the palm frond we wave called a leelev. Upon arriving in America, this tradition was ruthlessly exterminated by the (non-Z) ruling elite among the traditionalists. Today, you will hardly ever hear such pronunciation, even among first generation imigres from Galicia or Hungary. So much for the Orthodox keepers of old traditions.

GEK

[Ari]

Jeremy

1) it took me a little while until I realized the reason for the missing degeshim in my son's school books

2) but in Israel, books with nikkud (I'm thinking of kids' books) do have have the full complement of degeshim even though no practical purpose (see dr Seuss below)

3) my son's tutor corrected him when he erred with patach/kamatz etc, which I didn't agree with

Ari Kinsberg

MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer

Brooklyn, New York

**************

Give a child the best birthday present ever . . . the ability to live to celebrate yet another birthday. Visit https://www.dkmsamericas.org/register to register as a bone marrow donor.

[Yodan]

Dagesh in KAF is also relevant, KEN and NAKHON? J

 

---

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Yes, of course. My oversight.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I was going to make a similar point. Although without the "roof with extermination". In many ways, American yeshiva Hebrew is no closer to their ancestors' Hebrew than modern Israeli Hebrew is. Certainly, their ancestors might well understand Israeli Hebrew better than their descendants'. There is reason to think that Israeli here developed as a form that was most comprehensible to both European and SEfardi Jews. 

--

[Yodan]

Kind of on the same topic… The box of etrog we got states that it is “with pitim”. PITIM? I take it means PITAM (or PITUM in English spelling?) in Israeli and Sephardi Pronunciation, PITOM / PITAWM in some Ashkenazi Pronunciations and in Yemenite Pronunciation, but what’s that PITIM?

 

I think that this comes from Ashkenazi Hebrew, which should NOT to be confused with Torah reading – where the word’s stress is determined by the Te’amim! Ashkenazi Hebrew has much (mostly?) Mil’el stressing (whereas Sephardi/Israeli is primarily (but not solely!) Milra, and so I think that pi-TOM (pi-TAWM) because PI-tom (PI-tawm) and when this word is pronounced quickly, cutting the last syllable a bit short, it may sound like PI-tim. OK,  but to actually write PITIM???

 

If you had the pleasure to read Bialik’s poetry in Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation, you may feel like me that its beauty rhythm is enhanced, but who reads Bialik nowadays in Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation? Most Israelis don’t know much about Ashkenazi Hebrew, and most Ashkenazi Jews who use Ashkenazi Pronunciation for Torah reading and prayer may not read Bialik or be aware that he wrote poetry in Ashkenazi Hebrew.

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 11:26 AM
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

I was going to make a similar point. Although without the "roof with extermination". In many ways, American yeshiva Hebrew is no closer to their ancestors' Hebrew than modern Israeli Hebrew is. Certainly, their ancestors might well understand Israeli Hebrew better than their descendants'. There is reason to think that Israeli here developed as a form that was most comprehensible to both European and SEfardi Jews. 

[AMK Judaica]

prof. avraham holtz (bialik expert) once got all excited because in a conversation about bialik (actually something to do with leining!) I referred to a "hakdomo," a pronounciation he probably never hears from his students. he went off on a tangent that one can't fully understand/appreciate bialik without reading it in Ashkenazi, understanding the underlying yiddishisms, etc.
 
and of course not just bialik, but a lot (most, all?) of the early modern Hebrew poets wrote that way.
 
unrelated, but hatikva is sung by israelies with the Ashkenazi stresses

**********

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. Save a life.

 

---

From: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:51:05 -0700

[AMK Judaica]

sorry for one more unrelated tangent. but you mention "with pitim." when I was a kid a big deal was made about being careful not to break off the pitom. i think today they've gone the way of seeded watermellons? i still buy one with a pitom for chinuch purposes and to tell the kids how it was back in the day. (anyone know where i can get the itchy flax?)

**********
Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. Save a life.

 

---

From: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:51:05 -0700

[Zev Sero]

On 09/30/2015 03:07 PM, AMK Judaica wrote:
> sorry for one more unrelated tangent. but you mention "with pitim."
> when I was a kid a big deal was made about being careful not to break
> off the pitom. i think today they've gone the way of seeded
> watermellons?

Chas veshalom. There is no breeding of etrogim to develop or encourage
new traits. On the contrary, the big fear in etrogim is of "murkavim",
grafted trees. And shopping on Erev Yomtov the vast majority of the
etrogim I saw had pitoms. The first very nice one I saw had no pitom,
but I don't know how to tell whether it never had one, and was therefore
kosher, or had one and lost it, and was therefore pasul, so I reluctantly
passed it up. The one I ended up with has a pitom. Unless I was buying
from a dealer whose expertise and honesty I can trust, I would not buy
a pitomless etrog unless it was of the Calabrian breed, which is well
known for the scarcity of pitoms.

--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".

[Yodan]

Yes, Hatikva is Ashkenazi – for sure! I cannot even try to sing it in Israeli pronunciation.

 

Actually, many Sepharadim do not look to MIZRAH (“Le’fa’atei Mizrah”) but to DAROM, MA’ARAV, or TZAFON, and Teimanim look to TZAFON!

 

---

[Yodan]

Yes, I’m not giving up on the “pitim” for our Etrog! The stress on being careful about it is part of this holiday’s joy!

 

And I too long for that flax – the sponge doesn’t look sufficiently HAGIGI. I replace the sponge with cotton-wool balls, it has an older and more natural look.

 

---

[Meir]

Yodan writes, "I think that this comes from Ashkenazi Hebrew, which should NOT to be confused with Torah reading – where the word’s stress is determined by the Te’amim! Ashkenazi Hebrew has much (mostly?) Mil’el stressing (whereas Sephardi/Israeli is primarily (but not solely!) Milra"

It should be noted that it's not only in Torah reading that Ashkenazim are careful about mile'eil and milera.  In tefilla, too, we (mostly) are careful about such matters, except when parts are sung, since apparently most tunes do not lend themselves to milera pronunciation..  It is only in speech that mile'eil permeates -- even when quoting a pasuk from Tanach or a phrase from tefilla; and Talmud is almost universally studied and quoted in mile'eil.

I have also noticed that the Modern Hebrew korei and mipaleil tend to use mile'eil pronunciation in the Aramaic parts of the tefilla, mispronouncing words such as shemaYA and OraiTA.  All lines of Akdamut end with a milera, and in my experience are virtually always read mile'eil.

BTW, it should be noted that there are several words that Modern Hebrew pronounces as mile'eil which shouldn't be, such as arBA, shemoNe and shemoNA, and karKA.

I believe that names, too, are mispronounced.  It is rare to hear anyone referred to as RivKA, SaRA, AkiVA, etc.

Incidentally, occasionally Israeli advertisements and shop signs use nikkud.  It is rare that such nikkud is correct, with the most common error being the use of a kamatz where a patach is called for.  The reason, of course, is obvious, since the pronunciation is the same for both in the spoken language.

Meir  

[Yodan]

I agree with what you said. I think that because prayer pronunciation is not as well regulated as is Torah reading (and there are no gaba’im and folks shouting corrections), there is balagan and bilbul that can be irritating.

 

And what about people who use Israeli Pronunciation but pronounce the words in the Kaddish OLAM OLMEI OLMAYA and in the Hagada KMO instead of ALAM, ALeMEI, ALeMAYA and KeMA.

 

As to names, only my first teacher (Mora saRA) called me rivKA, and also my French (non-Jewish) colleagues call me rivKA because French is a “milra language.” (I used to work for a French company and spent much time in Paris and loved it when people called me rivKA.)

 

As to signs – shop signs (and I think even street signs?) – don’t get me started. It’s travesty! Shommu Shamayim!

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Meir

Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:51 PM
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

--

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 2:51:07 PM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

If you had the pleasure to read Bialik’s poetry in Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation, you may feel like me that its beauty rhythm is enhanced, but who reads Bialik nowadays in Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation? Most Israelis don’t know much about Ashkenazi Hebrew, and most Ashkenazi Jews who use Ashkenazi Pronunciation for Torah reading and prayer may not read Bialik or be aware that he wrote poetry in Ashkenazi Hebrew.

We need not look to Bialik for support. A somewhat earlier poet wrote the poem Adon Olom. Try reading that with stresses confined to the grammatically correct syllables. And some shvo's have to be sounded as full syllables, whilst some chatofs have to be skipped entirely to maintain the Iambic tetrameter beat.

GEK

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

 

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 4:00:48 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

>Seriously, the first serious step in this direction – Siddur Koren with introduction, translations and commentary (which I take as an endorsement) of Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, former chief rabbi of Great Britain. This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol.

>BTW, Reform and Conservative Siddurim implemented these changed years (actually decades) ago. I know that this is not the type of “endorsement” that will make the idea of classifying the Kamatz vowels according to modern Hebrew more HAVIV and appealing to many folks here, and may actually reinforce the objection, but it’s an interesting point nevertheless.

>One thing I know for sure: Some (most?) boys who study in Hebrew school in our area and do Leining or leading any of the prayers in our modern-Orthodox Shul pronounce EVERY kamatz AH! Not AW, and not AH/OH depending on the Kamatz, but AH. So it’s GAVHEI, KADSHEKHA, TZAHARAYIM, and other such beauties. To this I say OY! My ears are hurting!

You say the Koren Sacks uses Modern Hebrew re the Kamatz.  Do you have any example of how the siddur koren uses Modern Hebrew for the Kamatz, rather than Sephardi?

Or  when you write this " This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol." <-- Are you G-d forbid, forgetting that Sephardi Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew.

I am curious if it uses sephardi rule or  modern hebrew rule re kamatz katan. (The modern hebrew rule seems more involved, since it relates to binyan)

As for endorsements, Sacks isn't known as an expert on hebrew grammar.   He is hugely respected in certain circles, for certain skills that he has.. his modern outlook, quick wit, his likeability, secular academic qualifications, and creative thoughts on what's going on in the world - tying them into the Torah.  But on other matters - not so much - and that's fine, nobody is an expert in everything.   Also i'd note that in some circles, after his book that said all religions are true (which then got revised), he did lose some credibility among some of the more seriously religious.  Also, remember that Judaism recognises certain qualifications - Dayanus for example.. But there's no concept of Chief Rabbi in Judaism. A main requirement for a chief rabbi outside of Israel, (sadly not a requirement for one inside Israel),  is it should be a rabbi that relates well to the goyim, particularly heads of state / leaders that he'll meet, and Sacks is an absolute master at that.    And it's a rare skill among rabbis.. The current chief rabbi for example, was widely reported as not being a big scholar, (it's not secret), but he is very well mannered, he wouldn't make statements like Ovadia Yosef. somebody that makes statements like Ovadia Yosef would never be considered for a chief rabbi of Britain(despite Ovadia Yosef's breadth of knowledge of halacha).  So, just consider the requirements for a chief rabbi, it doesn't mean they're expert on the finer details of hebrew grammar..   

And there may even be a spelling mistake right on the front of the sacks singers  http://www.oztorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Siddur.jpg

I'm not sure but is that a spelling mistake (a yud in teffilah)?

BTW, Schools when they teach modern hebrew, don't teach the Ah and Oh, unfortunately.   I remember when I learnt about the Ah and Ohs during my barmitzva learning.. my teacher knew ashkenazi not sephardi , and was teaching me in modern hebrew and didn't know the modern hebrew or sephardi rules for ah/oh.   I walked into the cloakroom and a brilliant world renowned saintly professor of ancient languages, that had a photographic memory and would follow the leining without a chumash, was there, and he asked me to lein my barmitzva sedra..  I didn't know the whole thing off by heart of course, but  I did Rishon or some of it, and he fixed up all the Ah and Ohs..  I think I saw him again and we marked them in my tikkun.

And by the way, since you consider endorsements as so important.. and you mistakenly take the fact that it's written by this/that chief rabbi as an endorsement of the grammar.  Let me tell you that when I learnt for my barmitzva,  I had two chumashim, one was a Hertz(as in Chief Rabbi Hertz), the other a Soncino(Orthodox in Britain use Soncino.. Americans are often surprised to learn that  it's an Orthodox publication, since apparently non orthodox use or used it in america).    At one point there was a difference between them, with a dagesh or lack of dagesh  in a bet/vet.   My father chose the Hertz.. My teacher insisted the Soncino was correct.  The Rabbi is/was quite a keen grammarian and he immediately picked out an error in my leining (the one error), and the rabbi agreed with the Soncino. (I think it was that the bet cannot have a dagesh, but the hertz gave it a dagesh).    My father who is not intellectual, and knows nothing about hebrew grammar, then piped up and started arguing with the rabbi, saying Well, if you say that then you're going against chief rabbi hertz blah blah blah.  The argument was a poor one, and when they do a translation, it's more that they're putting their name to the translation. The Hertz Chumash was wrong.  And I wouldn't even say that Hertz or Sacks endorses anything beyond the translation.

Also, since these siddurim don't even care to state what tradition they are following re kamatz katan, or re shva, I think they lose some credibility there too.  As for a specific example of inconsistency or errors in the sacks siddur, I think if people dig a bit, they'll run into some.  I did meet somebody a while back that knows his stuff, and had some issues with it.  But kudos for sacks or the publishers to at least put in the kamatz gadol and kamatz katan, it's a step in the right direction.

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 4:28:09 PM UTC+1, Jay Braun wrote:

 

>Was this decision my father's to make?  I say yes.  And not a single one of you "language police" (who ironically call *us* the Zionist Language Police) is entitled to an opinion on this

 

>Way to go, Dad.

This is nothing to do with Zionism or your dad.   It's unfortunate that you bring up Zionism, and try to make this political, when it is not.  Or that you bring up your late dad and the nazis try to make it very personal.  

Giorges has not even mentioned Zionist language police at all since he was last criticised for doing so.   

And you're replying to me not even replying to him, and you're bringing it up. I have never in my life been against Zionism.  I am probably more Zionistic than you.   And there are no police here. You favour modern hebrew in leining, over minhag avos pronunciation such as ashkenazi.   I am not wagging my finger at you for it. And while you favour modern hebrew in leining, I favour a minhag, or even moreso, something more purist.  (and somebody could say that the purist is differing from minhag avos too, but i'm still all in favour of the purist)

I am sure I have made the point that many religious zionists may well choose not to use modern hebrew in shul.  If they are seriously religious, or even if they are not,  they are well within their rights to to stick to minhag, or to what they believe is the correct pronunciation.  Or if they're in a shul that is liberal enough to abandon minhag avos on pronunciation and use modern hebrew  then so be it.And it's up to the shul to decide whether that's ok.  So you shouldn't try to use the banner of Zionism as if anybody that disagrees with you is not a Zionist.

Nobody here is trying to stop you from leining in modern hebrew in your shul.  

There are no language police here. And there's no need for you to reintroduce that phrase.  All pronunciations, including modern hebrew, are clearly welcome for discussion. 

And when my rabbi cousin switched from modern hebrew to ashkenazi, his father didn't wag his finger at him or take it as a personal insult, for going back to minhag avos in his hebrew.    

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 3:28 AM, <shmuel.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

You say the Koren Sacks uses Modern Hebrew re the Kamatz.  Do you have any example of how the siddur koren uses Modern Hebrew for the Kamatz, rather than Sephardi?

Look at the first vowel in tzahoraim/tzohoraim in modim, e.g. Kamatz gadol is sefardi, katan is Israeli 

Or  when you write this " This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol." <-- Are you G-d forbid, forgetting that Sephardi Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew.

What in the world do you mean by this?

I am curious if it uses sephardi rule or  modern hebrew rule re kamatz katan. (The modern hebrew rule seems more involved, since it relates to binyan)

She said it follows Israeli hebrew, so what is your question?

   

And there may even be a spelling mistake right on the front of the sacks singers  http://www.oztorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Siddur.jpg

I'm not sure but is that a spelling mistake (a yud in teffilah)?

No it is not. There is no nikkud, so malei spelling is acceptable 

Also, since these siddurim don't even care to state what tradition they are following re kamatz katan, or re shva, I think they lose some credibility there too.  As for a specific example of inconsistency or errors in the sacks siddur, I think if people dig a bit, they'll run into some.  I did meet somebody a while back that knows his stuff, and had some issues with it.  But kudos for sacks or the publishers to at least put in the kamatz gadol and kamatz katan, it's a step in the right direction.

The Koren siddur was prepared by academic experts in Hebrew grammar, and their considerations are extensively documented, just not in the siddur itself. It is, after all, not of interest to the vast, vast majority of those who use it. I cannot find the link now to the article that explains their approach, but I have a copy of it at home. But your condescending attitude towards their editors, who know much more about this topic than anyone on this list, is uncalled for. 

--

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Associate Professor of Medicine at CUMC (Emergency Medicine)
Columbia University

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 9:09:15 AM UTC+1, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

>>Or  when you write this " This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol." <-- Are you G-d forbid, forgetting that Sephardi Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew.

>What in the world do you mean by this?

I mean maybe the Sacks uses Sephardi, not Modern Hebrew..   Just because it has a Kamatz Katan, doesn't mean it's modern hebrew. And if we do your test on it, looking at Modim, we indeed see that it's Sephardi rule for kamatz, not modern hebrew.  

>I am curious if it uses sephardi rule or  modern hebrew rule re kamatz katan. (The modern hebrew rule seems more involved, since it relates to binyan)

 

>>And there may even be a spelling mistake right on the front of the sacks singers  http://www.oztorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Siddur.jpg

>>I'm not sure but is that a spelling mistake (a yud in teffilah)?

>No it is not. There is no nikkud, so malei spelling is acceptable 

Do you have any source that spells it with a Yud?

>>Also, since these siddurim don't even care to state what tradition they are following re kamatz katan, or re shva, I think they lose some credibility there too.  As for a specific example of inconsistency or errors in the sacks siddur, I think if people dig a bit, they'll run into some.  I did meet somebody a while back that knows his stuff, and had some issues with it.  But kudos for sacks or the publishers to at least put in the kamatz gadol and kamatz katan, it's a step in the right direction.

>The Koren siddur was prepared by academic experts in Hebrew grammar, and their considerations are extensively documented, just not in the siddur itself. It is, after all, not of interest to the vast, vast majority of those who use it. I cannot find the link now to the article that explains their approach, but I have a copy of it at home. But your condescending attitude towards their editors, who know much more about this topic than anyone on this list, is uncalled for. 

Oh I don't mean to be condescending towards the editors.  I am sorry it came across that way.  

Well, I will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.   I understand though that they made "considerations"..  I'd be very interested in some info about the article.. 

What I heard(from somebody that knows far more than me), which is there were disagreements, so either that there were times where there were different traditions to choose from, and they were inconsistent there, not using a consistent straight forward methodology (or perhaps at best chose a tradition at variance with some of those they consulted). .

I notice also in Modim in the amidah, where it says HaMuhrachaym,  it has a patach under the Heh, then a Shva Na under the Mem. There is no dagesh in the Mem. And patach is a short vowel, so why did they make it a shva na?

Looking at Levita's 5 rules   

1) first letter of a word. 

2) second of two shvas under consecutive letters. 

3) after a tenua gedolah. 

4) under a dagesh

5) if a shva appears under the first of two consecutive identical letters (e.g., the first lamed of halleluyah

I don't see why that one would be a Shva Na.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 5:45 AM, <shmuel.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 9:09:15 AM UTC+1, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

>>Or  when you write this " This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol." <-- Are you G-d forbid, forgetting that Sephardi Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew.

>What in the world do you mean by this?

I mean maybe the Sacks uses Sephardi, not Modern Hebrew..   Just because it has a Kamatz Katan, doesn't mean it's modern hebrew. And if we do your test on it, looking at Modim, we indeed see that it's Sephardi rule for kamatz, not modern hebrew.  

It really is not accurate to talk about the Sacks siddur in this context. The text of the siddur is determined by Koren. It then has various commentaries (R. Sacks, R. Soloveitchik, R. Goldmintz) that it then puts at the bottom of the page. This conversation is about the Koren siddur. Since I don't have a Koren siddur handy, I can't comment on what rules they are using.

 

 

>>And there may even be a spelling mistake right on the front of the sacks singers  http://www.oztorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Siddur.jpg

>>I'm not sure but is that a spelling mistake (a yud in teffilah)?

>No it is not. There is no nikkud, so malei spelling is acceptable 

Do you have any source that spells it with a Yud?

Not sure what you mean by source, but modern standard orthography will have a yod for a chirik if there is no nikkud. You can't write a torah like that, but there is no reason not to print the cover a of siddur like that.

What I heard(from somebody that knows far more than me), which is there were disagreements, so either that there were times where there were different traditions to choose from, and they were inconsistent there, not using a consistent straight forward methodology (or perhaps at best chose a tradition at variance with some of those they consulted). .

This sounds like the standard critique of the Koren tanach. I have not heard any such complaints about their (current) siddur, which was created by an entirely different team. I would need more than "there were disagreements, and they were not completely consistent." Anyway, composing a siddur will always require decisions, as we have no fixed text from which there can be no deviation (except perhaps Chabad). The siddur is not the Torah

 

I notice also in Modim in the amidah, where it says HaMuhrachaym,  it has a patach under the Heh, then a Shva Na under the Mem. There is no dagesh in the Mem. And patach is a short vowel, so why did they make it a shva na?

Looking at Levita's 5 rules   

1) first letter of a word. 

2) second of two shvas under consecutive letters. 

3) after a tenua gedolah. 

4) under a dagesh

5) if a shva appears under the first of two consecutive identical letters (e.g., the first lamed of halleluyah

I don't see why that one would be a Shva Na.

Because it just always is in words of this structure, the shva is na. Hamevorach is a more common case. In general, the letter after a heh heydiah will have a dagesh, so the point is moot, but if the next letter is mem, even if it doesn't have a dagesh, it almost always is na anyway.

I will see if I can find that article by the koren editor.

[Jay Braun]

"This is [sic] nothing to do with Zionism . . ."

That's correct.  I did not bring up Zionism.  I brought up a disparaging term that has been used against me and others from time to time.  My remarks were directed to Jeremy, not to you, about the attacks made against me and others for "abandoning" our ancestral customs.  The latest disparaging remark was yours:  "not seriously religious".

". . . or your dad"

This has *everything* to do with my dad.  It is his customs that I have been accused of abandoning.  If you had a broader perspective, you would see it.  Your questions and comments indicate that you are not able to see beyond what is before you on a printed page.  I have already written way more than you can process, so I'll stop.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 5:45 AM, <shmuel.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 9:09:15 AM UTC+1, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

>>Or  when you write this " This Siddur follows Israeli Pronunciation in terms of the identity of the Kamatz Vowels, for which it uses two version of the KAMATZ vowel symbol." <-- Are you G-d forbid, forgetting that Sephardi Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew.

>What in the world do you mean by this?

I mean maybe the Sacks uses Sephardi, not Modern Hebrew..   Just because it has a Kamatz Katan, doesn't mean it's modern hebrew. And if we do your test on it, looking at Modim, we indeed see that it's Sephardi rule for kamatz, not modern hebrew.  

But i do have a Koren siddur (or 10) at home, where I am now, and you are simply wrong. There is a kamatz katan under the tzadi of tzohoraim, which is Israeli, not Sefardi, Hebrew, as Rivka said

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:31:26 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

 

>>I mean maybe the Sacks uses Sephardi, not Modern Hebrew..   Just because it has a Kamatz Katan, doesn't mean it's modern hebrew. And if we do your test on it, looking at Modim, we indeed see that it's Sephardi rule for kamatz, not modern hebrew.  

 

>But i do have a Koren siddur (or 10) at home, where I am now, and you are simply wrong. There is a kamatz katan under the tzadi of tzohoraim, which is Israeli, not Sefardi, Hebrew, as Rivka said

I didn't mean the Sacks Koren Siddur, I meant the Sacks Singers Siddur.  I guess it's ambiguous to say "the sacks" 'cos there's the singers, and the koren. I suppose in America you only have the koren.  In Britain there's both, and perhaps the singers is more common than the koren.

[Yodan]

Jeremy, toda rabba for this follow up.

 

I looked up the link to Chanan Ariel’s article that explains the Kamatz Vowels in Siddur Koren but it doesn’t seem to be working any longer. I contacted Chanan to see if he can send me the PDF (so we don’t have to rely on the internet!) and will post it when I receive it. I looked at the “Academia” site but this article doesn’t seem to be uploaded there. Perhaps you have another way to get it through your library.

 

---

--

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 1:57:37 PM UTC+1, Jay Braun wrote:

 

> "not seriously religious".

 

Except I did not say you were "not seriously religious".  I said  "Some modern orthodox might be willing to abandon minhag for modern hebrew, but rarely or never the seriously religious."

If the expressing abandon is offensive, thank you for telling me, I can easily avoid that phrase.

I was not talking about you personally, and I even made an allowance for how "rarely" some seriously religious may use modern hebrew, So even if you insert yourself into that, it doesn't mean you're not "seriously religious".  At the end of the day, religiousness is a spectrum..

Some modern orthodox may refer to "frummers" that use ashkenaz for hebrew. That may insult them.  I'm using the term seriously religious, and apparently you think that insults those to the left of that.  You could look at serious as an insult, as in, smiles less, less friendly. You prefer the term "to the right". Fine , I don't mind using that term if you are so insulted by the term "seriously religious". Though somebody that is "to the right" and posts here might get offended by that. So maybe then you can come up with another term that doesn't offend you, or that guy.

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 4:37:58 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

 

>Jeremy, toda rabba for this follow up.

  

 

>I looked up the link to Chanan Ariel’s article that explains the Kamatz Vowels in Siddur Koren but it doesn’t seem to be working any longer. I contacted Chanan to see if he can send me the PDF (so we don’t have to rely on the internet!) and will post it when I receive it. I looked at the “Academia” site but this article doesn’t seem to be uploaded there. Perhaps you have another way to get it through your library.

I doubt I will get it either but nevertheless, since you have a link of sorts, Could you share this broken link?

Ta

[Yodan]

Shalom Shmuel,

 

The email was to Jeremy. Please let me follow up on this and I’ll post.

 

Can we get a bit of rest here from the intensity of the Kamatz discussion and enjoy our Sukka please? Hag Same’ah!

 

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From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shmuel.fr...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 8:48 AM
To: leining
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 4:37:58 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

--

[Zev Sero]

Speaking of the Koren siddur, I was surprised to see that after mussaf,
"kavei" is missing, and it goes straight to "ein keilokeinu". Whose
minhag is it to omit these pesukim?

[Yodan]

Here is the link to the article about the Kamatz and other language items in Siddur Koren.

 

http://korenpublishers.com/HE/pdf/nikud.pdf

 

---

[Jay Braun]

Thanks for the link, Rivka.  The premise שיש צורך במבטא אחיד לכל ישראל is not likely to be accepted by all here, but I will print out a copy and keep it with me so that I can respond to people who ask me why I pronounce something a certain way.

j

[Yodan]

Shalom Shmuel, getting back to you as I promised in a previous email,

 

Thank you for the interest in my book. The book is primarily for those who use Israeli Pronunciation (“modern Hebrew), but I address Sephardi Pronunciation and, to some extent, Ashkenazi and Yemenite Pronunciations, but only on a few points.

 

Unfortunately I have no copies because the first edition sold out years ago. I’m working on a “second edition” which is actually a complete rewrite and has significant more information and more grammatical analysis on the Kamatz and Hataf-Kamatz.

 

I hope to complete the book sometimes in 2016, IY”H and all goes well.

 

In the meantime, if you or anyone else like I can add your name(s) to the waiting list, I’ll let you know when the book is available.

 

I think that much of what you raised was discussed in the various posts. I’d like to make a point that I don’t recall was made. In contrast to some “popular” views, the grammatical aspects (including the classification of the Kamatz vowels) of Israeli Pronunciation is not an invention of Israelis who wanted to revive the Hebrew language as a spoken language and thought that Sephardi Pronunciation is superior to Ashkenazi, but didn’t get it quite right is simply incorrect.

 

Israeli Pronunciation does not “combine elements from several pronunciations” and I find saying “Many point out that it combines the worst of sephardi and ashkenazi pronunciation” objectionable. (Please don’t be personally offended because I don’t mean it as a personal offense, this is a popular misconception).

 

Israeli Pronunciation is based on “modern Hebrew” which based on a large body of linguistic work conducted for several centuries by Jews and non-Jews (yes, non-Jews, including many Germans, have contributed significantly to the understanding of Hebrew!) starting in the 16^th century and going on since than actively across the world by many scholars who use tools of language development and comparative studies (comparing Hebrew to other Semitic, both existing and extant) in order to understand the etymological basis of Hebrew.

 

One of the most prominent Biblical Hebrew scholars was the German (Lutheran) scholar Wilhelm Gesenius. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Gesenius

 

Note: “Gesenius died at Halle and is buried near the university. According to tradition, theology students in Halle put stones on his grave as a token of respect every year before their examinations. (My friend who is a Hebrew language scholar visited Gesenius’ grave and sent me a photo showing the stones!)

 

The points I’d like to make is that we don’t know how Avraham & Sara etc. Moshe Rabeinu, or David HaMelekh actually spoke. We know that Hebrew is a Semitic language rooted in proto-Semitic language and with a strong resemblance to ancient Semitic language such as Phoenician and Akkadian and existing languages such as Aramaic and Arabic.

 

This is where the notion that Kamatz Katan differs from the Kamatz Gadol because KK originated from an original /u/ vowel, whereas KG originated in an original /a/ vowel. KK and Hataf Kamatz are related to some instances of Holam (the holam that originated from /u/) and these vowels are related to Kubutz, which is UH.

 

For example, Godel (Holam), Godlo (KK), and Gudlo (Kubutz). Also, Kodesh in Hebrew, Kudsha in Aramaic, and Kuds in Arabic.

 

This is true for the KK in a closed, unstressed/unaccented vowel, which is accepted in both Israeli and Sephardi Pronunciations, but also for KK in an open syllable that conforms to certain conditions, which is accepted in Israeli Pronunciation but not in Sephardi Pronunciation, even thought etymologically it “should have” been accepted.

 

All of this is discussed in numerous scholarly articles and books, and I’m discussing it in my book. So, now I got to work on my book so that I can complete it SOF SOF BIMHERA BEYAMEINU!

 

Thanks for reading this,

 

~ Rivka

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shmuel.fr...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 7:12 AM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:30:15 PM UTC+1, Yodan wrote:

 

 

 

Yodan/Rivka i'm very interested in your book about Ahs and Ohs, even though I understand it might be largely modern hebrew rather than sephardi hebrew.. Do you have any copies?  I've noticed your website has spoken of a new one coming out for many years now.  I could email you re that..

 

>In a few generations, everyone will be using what is now called Israeli Pronunciation. 

 

No way.  

 

 Not every Jew is a liberal/reform/non-O Jew, and Orthodox Jews aren't going to become liberal in some generations.  

 

Most cling to tradition. 

 

Some modern orthodox might be willing to abandon minhag for modern hebrew, but rarely or never the seriously religious. 

 

I know some  that are modern orthodox and religious and logical and might lein in modern hebrew, but that is because they aren't fluent in ashkenazi hebrew that their parents use, and they blame their school.

 

I am in the diaspora.

 

Some of my friends learnt modern hebrew in school, but their children are in school learning ashkenazi hebrew.   (unfortunately they don't learn modern hebrew).

 

 

A rabbi friend learnt modern hebrew in school, prior to becoming a rabbi, but when he became more religious, he switched to ashkenazi hebrew. He is a smart guy and there's no question that if he was in Israel he'd be able to do either pronunciation.  He'd talk to Israelis in modern hebrew pronunciation  .

 

 

>It makes sense because it combines elements from several pronunciations, it is based on both tradition and scholarly work, 

 

It's pretty bad at it..   Many point out that it combines the worst of sephardi and ashkenazi pronunciation.   

 

Sephardi Hebrew have the consonants preserved better..   Chet, Ayin, 

 

Ashkenazim as some have pointed out, have a vowel system closer to the tiberian mesorites than sephardim..  And with the exception of the variety of cholam vowels.. if we take just the Oh cholam.. We see the kamatz and cholam are the same as the Jews of Yemen.. who are often considered to have preserved the  hebrew very well.

 

There is a small movement of religious Jews  that seek to speak hebrew as close as possible to as it was spoken, their investigations take them a mile from modern hebrew pronunciaton.

 

They often look to the Saadya Gaon who apparently said Hebrew consonants are similar to Arabic consonants with some exceptions.. Like no J in hebrew.

 

Ancient Hebrew Alphabet PRONUNCIATION

Mikhael Elijah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7RIAPosxEI

 

Proper Pronunciation of the Hebrew Alphabet: Beginning with Consonants (Qoph through Taw)

Tora Nation Machon Shilo   (Rabbi Dawidh Bar Hayyim)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y55a22iMu4w

 

https://archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation    (a student of rabbi bar hayyim, talking about hebrew pronunciation)

 

 

It is a tiny movement that are purists like that, trying to go back to how best we can determine hebrew was pronounced.. But if expecting people to change then it makes a better case to be suggesting that.... but even that isn't moving many religious jews to change.

 

 

>it promotes unity in Am Israel, and it allows everyone to understand Torah reading and prayer. The concept of using a different Hebrew for Torah reading and prayer than is the spoken Hebrew is an “invention” of recent generations, based on the fact that in previous generations people used Hebrew for prayer etc. (sometimes without understanding) and another Jewish language – Yiddish, Ladino, Jewish Arabic, etc. – for everyday speaking. This is changing. Now the other Jewish language is Hebrew! Not many speak Yiddish and even fewer speak other Jewish languages.

 

>Furthermore, IMO we are supposed to pray and read Torah in the same way we are speaking – so that we understand what we are reading and prayer and everyone else understands too. Israeli Pronunciation achieves this.

 

This level of unity isn't happening and isn't going to happen any time soon, definitely not in a few generations. Whether it is changing to modern  hebrew, or to a more correct pronunciation of hebrew.

 

Religious Jews aren't even going to abandon their minhag to correct their pronunciation of consonants.. For example,  Halachically, the Daled in the shema (shema yisrael adoshem elokainu adoshem echad/echathhhhh)  is meant to be elongated.  A very small number of Jews like Rabbi Dawidh Bar Hayyim will say that the daled with no dot is pronounced like TH in THe.   Others just don't really elongate it properly.. They shout Duh at the end of Echad, or say nd, or just say it like normal .   

 

So if religious Jews aren't even willing to change to a more purist pronunciation of hebrew... they're certainly not going to change to a modern pick and mix pronunciation of it, that modern hebrew is, that has no regard to hebrew as "lashon hakodesh". That loses the distinctions of the consonants that many Jews in the middle east preserved.   

 

How to pronounce hebrew, is as important to seriously religious Jews, as their religion is.

 

And even if you brought Moshe Rabbainu back, and he said how hebrew is to be pronounced.. i'm sure many religious Jews (to the frustration of purists like rabbi dawidh bar hayyim), would point to the doctrine that we follow the sages that exist in our times. And the idea that if we are told to do something wrong we do it wrong.. Like Rashi commenting on that pasuk in devarim..about following the judges of our time, says that if the rabbis say left is right and right is left.. or black is white and white is black, we follow them.

 

 

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 7:41:35 PM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

> All of this is discussed in numerous scholarly articles and books, and I’m discussing it
> in my book. So, now I got to work on my book so that I can complete it SOF SOF
> BIMHERA BEYAMEINU!

Did you perhaps mean BIMHEIRA VEYAMEINU?

GEK

[Mark Symons]

I think she means BMHRH BYMYNU  (ie dgshym and nqdut not marked, but consonants correct ie B not V/W)!

Mark S

--

[Yodan]

I actually meant what I wrote, because I use standard Israeli Hebrew for just speaking (so Dagesh in Beit at the beginning of the word). I know that it’s different in the Tfilah, because some liturgical texts follow Biblical Hebrew principles, in which BGDKFT at the beginning of a word does NOT take a dagesh when preceded by a work ending in an open syllable and the two words are connected contextually (having a conjunctive accent in the Biblical text).

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 5:20 PM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 7:41:35 PM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

--

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

Thanks. Please add me to the waiting list for your book.

Enjoy your Sookose

[Jay Braun]

I think that much of what you raised was discussed in the various posts. I’d like to make a point that I don’t recall was made. In contrast to some “popular” views, the grammatical aspects (including the classification of the Kamatz vowels) of Israeli Pronunciation is not an invention of Israelis who wanted to revive the Hebrew language as a spoken language and thought that Sephardi Pronunciation is superior to Ashkenazi, but didn’t get it quite right is simply incorrect.

 

Israeli Pronunciation does not “combine elements from several pronunciations” and I find saying “Many point out that it combines the worst of sephardi and ashkenazi pronunciation” objectionable. (Please don’t be personally offended because I don’t mean it as a personal offense, this is a popular misconception).

 

From this day forward, I will stop telling the joke that Israeli Hebrew represents that way that Ashkenazim thought Sephardim spoke.  Do you think there is any credence to the notion that there was an attempt to "de-ghettoize" Hebrew (a term I find distasteful)?

Jay

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:51:04 PM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

I actually meant what I wrote, because I use standard Israeli Hebrew for just speaking (so Dagesh in Beit at the beginning of the word). I know that it’s different in the Tfilah, because some liturgical texts follow Biblical Hebrew principles, in which BGDKFT at the beginning of a word does NOT take a dagesh when preceded by a work ending in an open syllable and the two words are connected contextually (having a conjunctive accent in the Biblical text).

But Bimheiro V'yomeinu is a quote from the liturgy. So why not quote correctly?

GEK

[Mark Symons]

GEK, you raise an interesting question: 

When using a phrase in everyday speech, that is also used in liturgy, should it be pronounced according to the rules of everyday speech, or according to the rules of liturgy? It would seem that you hold by the latter; others, presumably, hold by the former.

MSS

--

[Jay Braun]

> others, presumably, hold by the former

Perhaps more so when it is in a different context, e.g., completing a book rather than rebuilding the beis hamikdosh.

[Yodan]

You have a point! I think that Bimhera Beyameinu has become such a common phrase in Hebrew that we use it according to standard grammatical rules and I don’t want people to “correct” me that think that I don’t know Hebrew. J But it’s a good point!

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:16 PM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:51:04 PM UTC-4, Yodan wrote:

--

[MP]

Zev asked:

> Speaking of the Koren siddur, I was surprised to see that after mussaf,

"kavei" is missing, and it goes straight to "ein keilokeinu". Whose

minhag is it to omit these pesukim? <

The Roedelheim siddur doesn't have "Qaveih"; I imagine such is also true for other minhag-Ashk'naz siddurim (can't check Avodas Yisrael this minute to see whether Baer mentions it at all), and see the online siddur.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

attached are 2 articles by Yosef ofer on the development of modern hebrew. One popular and one scholarly. I have only read the latter. if you read it you will see, iirc, that there is a sense in which it is a lowest common denominator between ashkenazi and sefardi, but not in any perjorative sense, unless you place no value on israelis developing a mutually comprehensible form of hebrew. Regardless, it behoves those interested in this matter to read at least one of these.

jeremy

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

For this too, see the articles I just posted.

jeremy

Jay

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[Mark Symons]

But perhaps if our talk of rebuilding the beit hamikdash also took the format of everyday speech, rather than formailised ritualistic liturgy, that would help us to mean it more sincerely ...

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Jay Braun <lyng...@gmail.com> wrote:

> others, presumably, hold by the former

Perhaps more so when it is in a different context, e.g., completing a book rather than rebuilding the beis hamikdosh.

--

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Because she speaks Hebrew, and when she says it, she isn't directly quoting the liturgy, but saying something in Hebrew. 

But the truth is, there is not correct way to quote the liturgy in this regard. There is absolutely no consistency among siddurim as to when to put a dagesh in a BGD KFT letter at the beginning of a word following a vowel. The true rules require te'amim. In the absence of these, there are three approaches, pretty much all of which are used in various siddurim:

1) say there are no disjunctive te'amim in the siddur, so there is never a dagesh. 

2) say there are are no conjunctive te'amim, so there is always a dagesh. 

3) say there are no te'amim at all in the siddur, so all we can do is try to decide semantically which words are connected, and decide about dagesh that way. Of course, there will not be any consistency between siddur editors who take the approach. 

But finally, I would add that in at least one place, I found a consistent dagesh here. In Adir Hu, every Haggadah I looked at tonight (3), had a dagesh in biyameinu. 

Jeremy

--

[Jay Braun]

But finally, I would add that in at least one place, I found a consistent dagesh here. In Adir Hu, every Haggadah I looked at tonight (3), had a dagesh in biyameinu. 

What is the tally on b'karov/v'karov?  (All of my haggadot are put away, and my wife caught me opening the Pesach cupboard!)

j

[Avram Herzog]

Hi,

I personally think it should be "b'karov", as the previous word is mileil.  Also, re. "b'yameinu/v'yameinu", it may be a reflection of the tune in the head of the editors.  Think about it: the popular tune goes like this--"bimheirah, bimheirah...(pause)...b'yameinu b'karov", which would lead to a separation of the two words "bimheirah" and "b'yameinu".

Avi H  

--

[Jay Braun]

> I personally think it should be "b'karov", as the previous word is mileil. 

Sorry, I was not aware of this affecting the BGDKPT rules.  

j

[Avram Herzog]

I could be wrong.  I'm thinking of "eLOhei chesef", mileil but still the dageish is dropped.  I imagine there are many such more examples.  So now I'm confusing myself, especially at this late hour.

Avi H 

 

 

On 10/01/15, Jay Braun<lyng...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

--

[Mark Symons]

The previous word being mileil doesn't affect the BGDKFT rules - it's just that it can cause a dagesh chazak in the 1st letter of the next word (whether it's BDGKFT or any other consonant that takes a dagesh)

--

[Yodan]

I actually do not believe that there was an attempt to make Israeli Hebrew less GALUTI.

 

There were several components to the development and adoption of what we call Israeli Pronunciation. One was what I wrote about Biblical Hebrew scholarship, and this I believe is the key to Israeli Pronunciation.

 

Very importantly, perhaps most importantly, in that in being primarily MILRA, Israeli Pronunciation is more similar to Biblical Hebrew how we read the Tanakh regardless of our ancestral heritage. We read it according to the Te’amim and not according to our EDAH, and the Biblical language is clearly more Milra than Milel.

 

It seems to me that there was no reason to adopt Ashkenazi Hebrew as Israeli Hebrew because Ashkenazi Hebrew - to the best of my knowledge - was hardly ever spoken by large numbers of Jews.

 

However, there is no denying that there was a strong anti-GALUT sentiment in Israel both before and after the foundation of the State of Israel, and it expressed itself in many ways including the view on Yiddish and on being DATI and so on. So it may seem

 

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Braun
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:10 PM
To: leining
Cc: yo...@yodanpublishing.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: yo'omad/ya'omad

 

I think that much of what you raised was discussed in the various posts. I’d like to make a point that I don’t recall was made. In contrast to some “popular” views, the grammatical aspects (including the classification of the Kamatz vowels) of Israeli Pronunciation is not an invention of Israelis who wanted to revive the Hebrew language as a spoken language and thought that Sephardi Pronunciation is superior to Ashkenazi, but didn’t get it quite right is simply incorrect.

--

[Yodan]

This is great! Toda rabba!!!

 

---

[Nehemiah Klein]

For those who defend ktiv malei:

If you look on many lulav bags they have written "kapos temarim" with a vav - the Gemara has a clear drasha over the fact that the word kapos is written without a vav.  As I have said many times the ktiv malei is another way of saying: "I do not care about my tradition and whatever goes is fine, add in all the vavs and yuds you want - why not?"  We now see an example of "why not", if the Israeli public would have been educated to care, the manufacturers would have checked carefully and this would not have happened.  (I will not even go into "isha" with a yud).

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I.e., dehik/ati merahik. 

Jeremy