Re: [leining] Re: Mordechai

[avigol...@juno.com]

i read it as a shva na, with Breuer

---------- Original Message ----------
From: MG <markgi...@yahoo.com>
To: leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [leining] Re: Mordechai
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:18:59 -0700 (PDT)

Accepted by who? This is certainly not accepted by Breuer.
Nor is it accepted by Rav Belsky, in fact, who writes clearly that the
kuf in "Luk'cha Zos" is pronounced as a shva na, certainly not a
kamatz katon.
How do you read "Luk'cha Zos"?
My point is its only a kamatz katon in certain places, like Mordochai,
not everywhere.



On Jun 28, 5:15 pm, "avigoldst...@juno.com" <avigoldst...@juno.com>
wrote:
> I think the accepted view is that a chataf kamatz  is a kamatz  kattan, and that the chataf is  placed there so that you will know it is not a kamatz gadol.However, as I recall, there is a mefaresh somewhere in Nach, I think the Radak, who seems to indicate that like the chataf patach, the chataf kamatz is (at least in some places) instead of a shva na.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: MG <markginsb...@yahoo.com>
> To: leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [leining] Re: Mordechai
> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 06:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
>
> I disagree with this.  I think there should be a noticeable difference
> between a chataf-kamatz under the daled and a shva na.
> I don't hyperarticulate it (I do chataf-kamatz) and I still inevitably
> get asked about it every year.
>
> As I understand it, as opposed to chataf-patach under a non-gutteral,
> a chataf-kamatz under a non-gutteral does not always come to indicate
> a shva-na.  It depends on the word and if a gutteral follows the
> letter with the chataf.  Breuer, for example, eliminates the chatafim
> under non-gutterals under most words in his Tanach, as he explains
> thouroughly in the introduction, but he doesn't always do it for
> chataf-kamatz.  EG "Ki Mei-Ish Luk'cha Zos" in Bereishit which has a
> chataf-kamatz in manuscripts, Breuer has it with a shva (na), and
> indeed the Masoretes only intended for that to be pronounced a shva
> na.  There, a gutteral follows the chataf.  However in "Yarkevahu al
> Bamasei Aretz" in Haazinu for example, he does not eliminate the
> chataf-kamatz.  Does anyone pronounce this word "Bah-mi-say" and not
> "Bah-mah-say"?  I certainly don't.
>
> Likewise he says clearly that Mordochai has a chataf-kamatz, and there
> I assume it is due to the origin of the word coming from "Marduk",
> thus the Masoretes intended to retain that pronunciation  We have
> eidus (Meorot Natan) that every Mordochai in the Megillah in the Keter
> had a chataf-kamatz under the daled.
>
> The piece in Dikdukei HaTaamim always bothered me because it does seem
> to contradict this.
> Here is the link (#14) for those who want to look.:http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38509&st=&pgnum=55&hilite=
> If the sofrim could put either one (shva or chataf-kamatz) under the
> daled, the obvious implication is that all of the Chataf-Kamatz's
> should be pronounced like a shva na.  (One thing that is odd about the
> piece is that he quotes "Mordechai" and "L'Mordechai" as two different
> examples,)  The only way to reseolve this is to say that the Tiberians
> indeed pronounced those particular shva nas like a chataf-kamatz, so
> for them it was interchangeable, but for us it is not.  We retain the
> chataf-kamatz in certain places and not in others, depending on the
> word.  If you're going to follow Breuer I believe you need to
> articulate the daled in Mordochai as a chataf-kamatz and not a shva
> na.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> On Jun 27, 7:22�pm, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
> wrote:
> > Unless you are hyperarticulating and inappropriately accenting the daled,
> > the difference in sound between a shva na and a chataf kamatz there is
> > almost inaudible to someone else, especially if they are not specifically
> > listening for how you are pronouncing that syllable.
> > Jeremy
>
> > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Avram Herzog <avm...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > Hi Ari,
>
> > > Of course it is. �I realize that too. �But I'm always cognizant of
> > > throwing ppl. off, upsetting the masses, etc. �But of course quantity
> > > doesn't equal quality.
>
> > > KT,
> > > Avi H
>
> > > On 06/27/12, AMK Judaica<amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > AVI H:
>
> > > it's a matter of what's in the better versions, not the more commonly
> > > printed version.
>
> > > kol tuv,
> > > ari
>
> > > Ari Kinsberg
> > > MA, PharmD, RPh
> > > Brooklyn, New York
> > > *************
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > Koren has Mord'chai with a kamatz katan under the dalet. �For years I
> > > did it that way. �I've switched over to a sh'va na, as that seems to be
> > > the more commonly printed version.
>
> > > > Any insights?
> > > > Avi H�
>
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> > --
> > Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
> > Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
> > Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
> > Columbia University- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
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[avigol...@juno.com]

I will try to find the Rishon who says what I wrote: that a chataf kamatz is actually a kamatz.

Just to clarify re luk'cha, i read it as a shva na because Breuer has it as a shva na.

[MG]

I'm going to assume you are using Breuer-Chorev, where he has a shva
at Lu'kcha Zos. His Mossad HaRav Kook edition has a chataf-kamatz
there. Again, there's no difference in pronunciation, just
orthography.

However, that same edition (actually all editions of Breuer) has
Mordechai with a chataf-kamatz. Breuer himself says in the back that
these two cases are NOT the same. One represents a shva na, and one
does not. Breuer took out EVERY case of chataf-kamatz that
represented a shva na and replaced it with a shva, as long he found at
least ONE manuscript to support this. He did not do this with
Mordechai.

I'm just not following your rationale. Let's say this Rishon exists
who says every chataf-kamatz is actually a kamatz katan. By your own
admission, you follow Breuer. So you would have to read Mordechai
with a kamatz katan, as he has a chataf-kamatz there.
If you read "Bamasay" (Haazinu, Deut 32:13) and "Tzari" (Gen 43:11)
with a kamatz katan, you should read Mordechai the same way.



On Jul 1, 11:23 pm, "avigoldst...@juno.com" <avigoldst...@juno.com>
wrote:
> I will try to find the Rishon who says what I wrote: that a chataf kamatz is actually a kamatz.Just to clarify re luk'cha, i read it as a shva na because Breuer has it as a shva na.

> > On Jun 27, 7:22&#65533;pm, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>

> > wrote:
> > > Unless you are hyperarticulating and inappropriately accenting the daled,
> > > the difference in sound between a shva na and a chataf kamatz there is
> > > almost inaudible to someone else, especially if they are not specifically
> > > listening for how you are pronouncing that syllable.
> > > Jeremy
>
> > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Avram Herzog <avm...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > Hi Ari,
>

> > > > Of course it is. &#65533;I realize that too. &#65533;But I'm always cognizant of
> > > > throwing ppl. off, upsetting the masses, etc. &#65533;But of course quantity

> > > > doesn't equal quality.
>
> > > > KT,
> > > > Avi H
>
> > > > On 06/27/12, AMK Judaica<amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > AVI H:
>
> > > > it's a matter of what's in the better versions, not the more commonly
> > > > printed version.
>
> > > > kol tuv,
> > > > ari
>
> > > > Ari Kinsberg
> > > > MA, PharmD, RPh
> > > > Brooklyn, New York
> > > > *************
>
> > > > > Hi,
>

> > > > > Koren has Mord'chai with a kamatz katan under the dalet. &#65533;For years I
> > > > did it that way. &#65533;I've switched over to a sh'va na, as that seems to be

> > > > the more commonly printed version.
>
> > > > > Any insights?

> > > > > Avi H&#65533;

[avigol...@juno.com]

correct, that was in Chorev edition; he changed it

i will try to find the rishon who talks about the chataf kamatz as a kamatz, not a shva

> > On Jun 27, 7:22�pm, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>

> > wrote:
> > > Unless you are hyperarticulating and inappropriately accenting the daled,
> > > the difference in sound between a shva na and a chataf kamatz there is
> > > almost inaudible to someone else, especially if they are not specifically
> > > listening for how you are pronouncing that syllable.
> > > Jeremy
>
> > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Avram Herzog <avm...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > Hi Ari,
>

> > > > Of course it is. �I realize that too. �But I'm always cognizant of
> > > > throwing ppl. off, upsetting the masses, etc. �But of course quantity

> > > > doesn't equal quality.
>
> > > > KT,
> > > > Avi H
>
> > > > On 06/27/12, AMK Judaica<amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > AVI H:
>
> > > > it's a matter of what's in the better versions, not the more commonly
> > > > printed version.
>
> > > > kol tuv,
> > > > ari
>
> > > > Ari Kinsberg
> > > > MA, PharmD, RPh
> > > > Brooklyn, New York
> > > > *************
>
> > > > > Hi,
>

> > > > > Koren has Mord'chai with a kamatz katan under the dalet. �For years I
> > > > did it that way. �I've switched over to a sh'va na, as that seems to be

> > > > the more commonly printed version.
>
> > > > > Any insights?

> > > > > Avi H�

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