Re: [leining] Re: alpayim ba'amah

[JECg...@aol.com]

Maybe I've asked this before, but how many people use a different tune for telisha gedola vs. ketana, one being a mafsiq and the other a mesharet.

Ephraim

 

 

In a message dated 8/14/2011 12:46:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jeremy...@nyu.edu writes:

No, but That wasn't Victor's point either, I don't think. The point is that some tunes end, and some lead right into the next ta'am, and it works much better if mafsikim have tunes that end.

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:27 AM, MG <markgi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Regardless of whether that line is a true pasek or not, my point is
that the "tune" is not a determinant of whether something is a mafsiq
or mesharet; one doesn't have to end with the tune of TG in order to
give it a disjunctive "ending".



On Aug 14, 12:40 am, Jay Braun <lyngw...@aol.com> wrote:
> I happen to sing a shalshelet as two pazers and a telisha gedola, as I
> was taught more than 40 years ago.  Many people have asked why I don't
> sing three pazers, and seem satisfied that I am simply passing along
> the tradition that my teacher passed down -- just as they should pass
> down three pazers if that is the tradition that was handed down to
> them.
>
> Regarding the vertical line after the word, Jacobson says that it is
> not a pasek per se, but simply part of the trope, as is the line that
> is part of munaH l'garmeh.  A "true" pasek follows trope classified as
> m'shar'tim (conjunctive trope).  Jacobson also answers a related
> question:  For munaH l'garmeh, where the line distinguishes it from
> the conjunctive munaH, the line serves a purpose.  But since a
> shalshelet is a rather significant pause (equal to segol, which it
> replaces in 1-word phrases, zaqef, and tip'Ha), why is the line
> needed?  He answers that the ta`amei "emet" system used for (most of)
> Iyov, Mishlei, and T'hilim, has two trope that look like shalshelet,
> one of which is conjunctive and one disjunctive; the vertical line is
> part of the disjunctive trope, and therefore we use the same compound
> symbol for shalshelet in the other 21 books.
>
> On Aug 12, 4:11 pm, MG <markginsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Have to agree with GEK on this.  We have no recordings; all we have is
> > what has been passed down to us.
> > The Siach Yitzchak (older brother and Rebbe of the Taz, mid/late
> > 1500s) writes that a Karnei Parah sounds like a Pazer and two
> > telishot.
> > Eliyahu Bachur (1469-1549) in Tuv Taam writes that a Karnei Parah
> > sounds like a Pazer and two telishot.
>
> > These sources are at least as valid as Casper Amman, circa 1500.  So I
> > doubt that successive telishot is an impossible sequence, given that
> > these two authorities claim that that is the proper tune.
>
> > As far as Shalshelet, I would imagine most of us have the tradition to
> > do it like three pazers.  Bachur says two pazers and a telisha (Wickes
> > mistakingly quotes him as just two pazers), neither of which I have
> > ever seen done in practice, and certainly not one pazer followed by
> > Telisha Gedolah.  Your argument that that would give it the "proper
> > disjunctive ending it should have" doesn't make sense to me - the
> > Shalshelet has a pasek afterwards regardless, so it would always be
> > disjunctive no matter what the melody.
>
> > On Aug 10, 5:08 pm, v.tun...@qmul.ac.uk wrote:
>
> > > The problem with these special t’amim is that the printers have  
> > > altered them from how they appear in the original codices.
>
> > > Karnei farah is actually a nickname.  Its correct name is pazer gadol  
> > > and in the MSS it appears simply as V above the word.  It is therefore  
> > > a ‘big’ pazer, so can be doubled or even ascend to the top tonic for a  
> > > flourish.   If you look at the very first time that these notes were  
> > > written in staff notation, (Caspar Amman c.1500), you will see it was  
> > > never two telishas as shown in the printed humashim (an impossible  
> > > combination or sequence anyway). and the music is just a doubled pazer.
>
> > > The suggestion that it should be sung as a pazer followed by a  
> > > t.gdola:  this in fact is the correct rendering for a shalshelet ,  
> > > according to Amman’s informants.  This gives shalshelet the proper  
> > > disjunctive ending it should have, as a substitute for a segol on the  
> > > first word of a sentence.
>
> > > Victor Tunkel- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I don't remember your asking the question before, but I do, though I
didn't in the recent past. It bothered me, and I suspected that I may
have lost the distinction since I first learned it, so I regained it.
I can't remember if it was by listening to other ba'alei kriah or
Jacobson's CD.
Jeremy

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Aug 18, 2011, at 9:45 PM, JECg...@aol.com wrote:

> Maybe I've asked this before, but how many people use a different tune for telisha gedola vs. ketana, one being a mafsiq and the other a mesharet.

I use different tunes. TG is a bit fancier than TQ.

Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net

[AMK Judaica]

i use different tunes
and try to make sure to pause/not pause as called for
 
shabbat shalom,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Give a child the best birthday present ever . . . the ability to live to celebrate yet another birthday. Click here to register as a bone marrow donor.

 

---

From: JECg...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: alpayim ba'amah
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Michael Poppers]

On Aug 18, 11:55 pm, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> i use different tunes
> and try to make sure to pause/not pause as called for
>

Ditto. In WA trop, I would unmusically describe TQ as akin to a four-
step back flip and TG as akin to going up and back down a multi-step
staircase.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA