Which tikkun for a present?

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

i would like to buy a tikkun for a bar mitzva student of mine. he is
very interested in continuing to lein (he insisted on leining at
mincha on his shabbat bar mitzva as well) and he also picked up a lot
of dikduk and some basic trop science. i would get either simanim or
horev (breuer)*. i'm biased toward horev because it is based on rav
breuer's text accurate and i prefer its sheva na/nach distinctions.
but simanim has more bells and whistles that could serve him well. any
thoughts?

(*i would only get him the full size horev with the standard layout,
but does anyone know where to get it?)

kol tuv,
ari

[Nehemiah Klein]

you don't find the shading in Simanim a bit annoying?

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The full sized simanim has a column without the shading.

--
Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Assistant Professor of Clinical Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I would get the (full sized) simanim. Though I like the Breuer too for the its text, I think a new ba'al koreh (or a newly m'dakdek one) can benefit from the simanim's features. Eventually he will, one hopes, graduate from needing it, but I think it's the best starting place.

Jeremy

[Aryeh Moshen]

Does anyone have an online-link to the classification of taamim (Keisarim, Melachim, etc.)?

[AMK Judaica]

JEREMY:

"I think a new ba'al koreh (or a newly m'dakdek one) can benefit from the simanim's features."
 

agreed

 
"Eventually he will, one hopes, graduate from needing it, but I think it's the best starting place."
 

although i've knocked simanim in the past for its text, i do think it deserves acknowledgement for making people more cognizant of dikduk issues wrt leining.
but my concern* is that some people don't graduate. they rely on it to help them be makpid and lein very nicely, but never understand what they are being makpid about and can't be makpid without simanim. it become a crutch. you can go crazy (and people do) trying to "memorize" a particular aspect of proper reading, but it is much easier if one can understand the fundamentals. for example (this is nothing to do with simanim), a long time ago someone remarked to me he was impressed that i got every paroh/pharoh correct. he said this is something he struggles with when he leins. he was amazed that i could memorize every time it should be paroh/pharoh. of course it has nothing to do with memorizing but rather understanding a few basic principles, but for him its about memorizing every instance of paroh vs. pharoh.
just to clarify i still do think we are much better off with simanim than without it. it serves the greater good.
i hope this post doesn't smack of elitism or snobbery.
 
*my concern is in general and not with the bar mitzva kid i mentioned. i wouldn't refrain from getting him simanim because of what i wrote above.
 
kol tuv,
ari
 


Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

[AMK Judaica]

ARYEH:
 
wickes's book on trop is free on google books. he certainly discusses each class separately, although i don't recall a clean table delineating the different levels.
ask michael poppers. i think he once post some type of table?
otherwise
kesarim: etnahta, siluk
melakhim: zakef, tipha, segol, shalshelet
mishnim: revi'a, pashta, yetiv, tevir, zarka
shelishim: pazer, telisha gedola, geresh/gershayim, munah le-garme

 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

---

Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:52:26 -0800
From: aryeh...@yahoo.com
Subject: [leining] Trop
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

Does anyone have an online-link to the classification of taamim (Keisarim, Melachim, etc.)?

[AMK Judaica]

NEHEMIAH:

 
"you don't find the shading in Simanim a bit annoying?"
 

i guess not

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Noodling around on the internet, it is suprprising how little there is on this. The wikipedia page on "cantillation" has the list, and the citation below has one, but surprisingly, noone goes the last step and lists the meshartim.

http://bible.ort.org/books/cant4.asp?action=textdisplay&id=9

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Aryeh Moshen <aryeh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Does anyone have an online-link to the classification of taamim (Keisarim, Melachim, etc.)?

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[Michael Poppers]

Thanks, Ari. Yes, I created a Mafsiqim page -- see
http://sites.google.com/site/torahreading/mafsiqim -- some time ago
and am still hoping you'll someday send me the text of our Jan2009
AGMK-'blog dialogue so that I can post it to that page ;-).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

On Jan 17, 11:14 am, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ARYEH:
>
> wickes's book on trop is free on google books. he certainly discusses each class separately, although i don't recall a clean table delineating the different levels.
> ask michael poppers. i think he once post some type of table?
> otherwise
> kesarim: etnahta, siluk
> melakhim: zakef, tipha, segol, shalshelet
> mishnim: revi'a, pashta, yetiv, tevir, zarka
> shelishim: pazer, telisha gedola, geresh/gershayim, munah le-garme
>
> kol tuv,
> ari
>
> Ari Kinsberg
> MA, PharmD, RPh
> Brooklyn, New York
> **************
>
> Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.
>

> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:52:26 -0800

> From: aryehmos...@yahoo.com

[AMK Judaica]

1) i'm going to get him the simanim. which is the most recent edition?
2) does anyone know where to get the horev standard-layout edition these days?

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The most recent edition is dated last year (2011? 5771?), is full sized, and has the ma'aneh lashon instead of one of the other commentaries on the left side. You can order it directly from Feldheim.

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[AMK Judaica]

out of stock from feldheim. i've seen it in local judaica stores but i don't know if the most recent edition.
what's the difference between sephard/ashkenaz eds? ketav? text? aliyot? haftarot? diduk?

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

---

Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:50:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [leining] Which tikkun for a present?
From: jeremy...@nyu.edu
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

For those not aware, there is a 4-column Simanim edition. Columns are
as follows:
1) Standard with trop/nikkud
2) Torah with shading, note references, selected degeshim
3) Torah plain
4) Onkelos

In the end this is the edition I purchased for the boy. I initially
purchased the standard 2-column Simanim but returned it because I
thought the typography was terrible and rough on the eyes. The text
was squooshed (and too close to the inner margin) in order to
accomadate the "nosei keilim"; instead he should have just used a
smaller typeface.

As far as the 4-columns, personally I think Onkelos is useless in a
tikkun (unless a Yemenite shul?) and I don't understand why he needs 2
Torah columns. Why not just put the shading in the column with nikkud/
trop? Of course 4 columns makes the book twice as thick and heavy, but
again readability is much improved in this edition.

kol tuv,
ari

On Jan 17, 7:30 am, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
wrote:

> The full sized simanim has a column without the shading.
>

[Michael Poppers]

I appreciate the Targum column because I enjoy using this [4-column
Simanim] edition to fulfill the mitzva of "shnayim miqra v'echad
targum" (and like its version of the Targum better than, say,
Artscroll's).

Like Ari, I would have liked to see the two right-side columns merged
into one (as they were in the 2-column edition). Perhaps the author/
publisher(s)/editor(s) felt that, if they were going to have three
columns, including the Targum column, might as well have four, but one
would think there are other texts one could add (e.g. more commentary,
or the same commentary in a bigger font). Also, the 4-coliumn ed.
doesn't distinguish between p'siq and the line after a munach l'garmei
-- the 2-column ed. did (one was a solid line, the other a hollow
line) -- not sure why that aspect of Simanim was left out of the newer
edition.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

On Feb 1, 12:07 pm, "AMK Judaica (Ari)" <amkjuda...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I'm not sure why you think the p'sik legarmeh distinction was dropped. I have two different versions of the 4 column edition, and it's in both. I too used to use it for shnayim mikra, but it was rather bulky if I wasn't staying home, and it rather battered it (I'm a bit neurotic -- if I'm doing it from a particular text, I do it from that text altogether.) Now I use a chorev edition based on R. Breuer's text.

As for the columns, my biggest complaint about the 4 column edition is that even the clean column isn't clear. It has the superscripted letters, which provide a clue, and also, the pasuk numbers are in the margins, again, where they provide a clue.

Jeremy

[AMK Judaica]

the 4 col ed i bought does have pesik legarme distinction
 
i didn't notice the third col. does have the superscripts and verses. now i see this. oh well. i still think he'll do better with the nicer typography of this edition. but i really wonder the point then was to have the 3rd columns. btw, the shading in the second column really is very slight. but if it bothers someone, it's definately there.
 
chorev has onkelos?

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

---

Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Which tikkun for a present?
From: jeremy...@nyu.edu
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Not the tikkun. They have a couple of editions of regular chumash/onkelos/rashi/siftei chachamim.

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Not the tikkun. They have a couple of editions of regular chumash/onkelos/rashi/siftei chachamim»

I have 2-3 editions of. Horeb with Rashi

All have Rashi and sifsei hachamim with n'quddos

The large size has Rashi with Rashi Script. The small has Rashi with regular square font

I'm somewhat disappointed with their Rashi edition due to various errors I've found particularly in the French La'az entries. Compare with EG artscroll
Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Avi]

Aside from the expanded (4 column) edition, do all the other Simanim
tikkunim (of various sizes) contain the same features and
commentaries?

(As an aside, I have heard that there are inconsistencies between
different Simanim editions. As well as that the Simanim siddur which
also contains chumash in the back has inconsistencies within itself.
Such as their punctuation of parts of Az Yashir in the davening versus
in the chumash is different.)

Avi

[Michael Poppers]

Good to know, but it's not in my edition. If you wish, we could post
the copyright dates or other info. re these editions so listmembers
know which edition to avoid :). Thanks.

On Feb 1, 6:37 pm, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
wrote:

> I'm not sure why you think the p'sik legarmeh distinction was dropped. I

> have two different versions of the 4 column edition, and it's in both....

[AMK Judaica]

AVI:
 
to further complicate, i noticed differences between the tikkun and the tanach.
(btw i like the siddur, but it needs some improvements)
 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 06:44:25 -0800
> Subject: [leining] Re: Which tikkun for a present?
> From: klein...@gmail.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com